Quote from: Imperator;343701My experience as well. We don't represent gamers as a whole, not in the least.

I do.

Out of my own local gaming crowd, I have 5 posters / 1 perma-lurker / 8 couldn't give a fuckers who don't even browse RPG forums, but are active RPG players.

At California conventions, I can mention RPG.net and ENworld and OSR and all I get are blank stares 90% of the time.

I did a poll at our fall 2006 D&D tourneysevents to find out how many of our players were on RPG.net and ENWorld.   The plan was to see if we should be buying banner ads.  Out of 40 players for the weekend for the tourney events, only 3 people were poster / lurkers and almost 30 of them had never heard of either website.    The complete lack of knowledge was most impressive and informative.  

However, the SoCal conventions have an indie clique who attends the cons to play Forge stuff and almost all of them are involved in the various indie forums.    

At their height, they were a pretty good clique for the vendors.  Unlike grogtards, the Forgies are into buying new shit whenever it comes out.    Camarilla LARPers are decent customers too for WW and prop/costume stuff.  

But boardgamers are A+ great customers - always buying new shit.   And they've got Boardgame Geek which really does a great job building their community to keep them aware of new games.  

RPG.net is too fucked up and bitchfesty to ever develop into any kind of marketable community.   ENworld is too fractured and soon won't matter at all as people continue to migrate away to either DDI or Paizo.

Buceph does make a good point.  I'm the only one in any of my gaming groups that has ever even heard of Forge/GNS/Ron Edwards, etc.  I had never heard of them either until I read some of Pundits comments on Ron Edwards.  I don't personally know any other gamers who actually hit the forums and they would yawn at the debate over the best style of play since they know what they like.

As far as Pel's attempts to "convert" his BRP crowd, if he isn't interfering with the game or being a tool about it then I don't see the harm. J Arcane is right that if you join a group just to convince them your style of play is better then that is rude to the GM and the rest of the group, but there is nothing wrong IMHO with talking up another game to your friends.  That is how I converted the AD&D group I was running to playing RQ (I know, heresy, but we play both now).  From personal experience though having purchased Hero Quest (the original version) I can tell you none of our group (myself included) wanted to switch to story gaming and I think I'm using the game books as coasters now.

Quote from: Grimjack;343731As far as Pel's attempts to "convert" his BRP crowd, if he isn't interfering with the game or being a tool about it then I don't see the harm. J Arcane is right that if you join a group just to convince them your style of play is better then that is rude to the GM and the rest of the group, but there is nothing wrong IMHO with talking up another game to your friends.

I'd like to point out that I didn't convert anyone. The BRP fans still roll their dice with glee and record their experience check-marks. We've not replaced any conflict resolution with competitive circle jerks or anything else alluded to by J Arcane. We all still roll Specials and Criticals with our D100s. We just have a different perspective.

And yes, we might debate the merits of taking a story approach -  but like many other things, it's not the be-all and end-all.

To be honest, we're too busy pointing fingers at those bastard War-gamers and sonofabitch card-gamers to be picking on other role-players.*

M

*or that's the way it used to be. Our rationale was scarcity of tables. One table at our local club could cater for 6 roleplayers OR two card gamers or it was 4 tables for 2 wargamers. With a scarcity of tables, we fought over space.

And we loved LARPers. No fecking tables!

Quote from: Buceph;343662Pelorus: I saw your location as Northern Ireland and was wondering if you had come across Forgers in Ireland? I've met a good few indie gamers in Ireland, mostly at Gaelcon (and the best dude at Dominicon) but none of them gave off overt Forger vibes. There was one attempt to get us to have a go at misery tourism, but mostly it was general honesty about what the games entailed.

There are some local folk who played Sorcerer but there wasn't any angst about it. I don't think the locals see any conflict because, end of the day, geeks gotta stick together (against the other more socially acceptable obsessive compulsives, like footie fans).

The folk in the south of the Island are more 'social' definitely. They have good links across the nation. Up north, we're a lot quieter and less overt. Back when I ran Q-CON, the big issues of the day were 'Magic The Gathering' and 'Holy Crap, Vampire just brought a load of girls into the hobby. Quick, date them!'.

So yes, there isn't a Forge issue over here. Some people play Forge-type games and people either join in or look bemused. There's no way I'd get my gaming group to play the new Narrativist Runequest game. Not when there's Specials and Crits in BRP!

Quote from: Buceph;343662And I think this is why you generally don't see the trad v Forger conflict in the real world. In the real world people are too busy playing games, and associating with people they like. People are generally civil at conventions, and I can say for a fact that of all the people in my gaming community only the people I regularly booze with know what the Forge is. The forge doesn't appear on most people's radar. And that's within the active gaming community. At one seminar there was a shop owner talking about how the actual gaming community only represents a tiny proportion of actual gamers. He classified the others as, "kitchen table gamers" people who don't get active in clubs, and don't post on the internet. Their only link to gaming culture would be what's stocked in the shop. People posting here are a small percentage of gamers, and forgers are a small percentage of people who are actively arguing online.

It's fair to say that:

1) I visit here and RPGnet. Here because the conversation is better quality. There because there's more people talking and sometimes it's nice to have something to talk about. I realise I have to watch my mouth over there and have been told off a few times for being 'passive aggressive' (which is a load of donkey cock). That sucks bigtime but really...

2) the only place, of the two sites, where I see vitriol and abject hatred is here. I realise there's reasons for it but just as I don't see an issue with talking about Gamist, Simulationist and Narrativist in common parlance, I don't see an issue with DitV or TMW. Now - I don't agree with the main positions in the Forge  -  probably because I don't understand them (and they seem like analysis for the sake of analysis) - but the vitriol is hard to take. I guess it's more of a 'qhy can't we get along' vibe. Which then leads me to...

3) I don't mind the tools but I dislike the Tools. I think you can learn something from anyone, from any book. And yes, I find some of the Forge stuff to be condescending (see my earlier comment about Ron Edwards and his Godlike review). But that's not a GNS issue or a Forgist issue. It's a Ron Edwards issue and if I think he's a Tool then - whatever. I'll never meet the guy face to face so I won't need to plant him for that shitty review. I've met a few big name game developers wayback when and the only one who bothered me was Sam Chupp (and that's more because he wandered around in flannel loungers at a convention and looked mostly like a homeless person). And that was wayyyy...pre-Forge.

Quote from: The Shaman;343620See, it's stuff like that which makes Forgers sound like pretentious twats.Then again, perhaps we can find some common ground.

I meant, previous to the Forge even existing, gamers turned on each other for the smallest of things. Our school club was dominated by the 'highbrow' folk who only played Consulting Detective and Call of Cthulhu. It was real high school stuff. Which is why I don't *seriously* point fingers at groups. End of the day, we're here to play games. How dicky is that?

Quote from: Pelorus;343745So yes, there isn't a Forge issue over here. Some people play Forge-type games and people either join in or look bemused. There's no way I'd get my gaming group to play the new Narrativist Runequest game. Not when there's Specials and Crits in BRP!

It is good that they have recognized BRP as the one true path of gaming!

Quote from: Pelorus;3437452) the only place, of the two sites, where I see vitriol and abject hatred is here. I realise there's reasons for it but just as I don't see an issue with talking about Gamist, Simulationist and Narrativist in common parlance, I don't see an issue with DitV or TMW. Now - I don't agree with the main positions in the Forge  -  probably because I don't understand them (and they seem like analysis for the sake of analysis) - but the vitriol is hard to take. I guess it's more of a 'qhy can't we get along' vibe. Which then leads me to...

I'm too tired most days for vitriol but having read some of the Forge threads to see what Pundit was so worked up about I have to say that I do take offense at the "holier than thou" attitude that seemed pervasive there.  If this were just a debate between which type of game is more fun I don't think there would be any vitriol involved.  After all, everyone is going to have their own preference for gaming, even those godless card gamers:p, and if they have fun then more power to them.  The vitriol seems to come up in situations like the OP where there is an implication that we neandrethals who don't like story games are just too stupid to understand that they are superior.  In fairness, I didn't get that impression from your posts but I think that is why these debates always strike a nerve with some people.  Being talked down to by story gamers, some of whom wouldn't last 5 minutes in a D&D game before being fragged by other players is annoying to say the least.  But since you are still in a BRP game you have some street cred at least (assuming the party doesn't roast you and your storygamer buddy on a regular basis that is).

Quote from: Pelorus;343745I meant, previous to the Forge even existing, gamers turned on each other for the smallest of things. Our school club was dominated by the 'highbrow' folk who only played Consulting Detective and Call of Cthulhu. It was real high school stuff. Which is why I don't *seriously* point fingers at groups. End of the day, we're here to play games. How dicky is that?

In my high school gaming club the 'highbrow' folk played Traveller or EPT.  In college, the debate was over whether computer RPG's were better (and we are talking text only games or maybe Ultima on the Commodore 64 at that time).  Man I'm old!

Quote from: Grimjack;343754It is good that they have recognized BRP as the one true path of gaming!

I'm too tired most days for vitriol but having read some of the Forge threads to see what Pundit was so worked up about I have to say that I do take offense at the "holier than thou" attitude that seemed pervasive there.  If this were just a debate between which type of game is more fun I don't think there would be any vitriol involved.  After all, everyone is going to have their own preference for gaming, even those godless card gamers:p, and if they have fun then more power to them.  The vitriol seems to come up in situations like the OP where there is an implication that we neandrethals who don't like story games are just too stupid to understand that they are superior.  In fairness, I didn't get that impression from your posts but I think that is why these debates always strike a nerve with some people.  Being talked down to by story gamers, some of whom wouldn't last 5 minutes in a D&D game before being fragged by other players is annoying to say the least.  But since you are still in a BRP game you have some street cred at least (assuming the party doesn't roast you and your storygamer buddy on a regular basis that is).

I'm of the school that says someone who is a horseback warrior from an equestrian culture shouldn't have to make a Ride roll to gallop down a street. This sort of discussion sparks much debate in our RQ games because we have some amazingly powerful heroes and they get such bad dice rolls.

With regards to the vitriol at Story Gamers -  don't go to the Forge! -  if you're going to be a spectator at a 'story gamer circle jerk', don't be surprised if you get a splash...

Totally with you on the card gamer front. Godless soulless bastards who'd skin their own granny for a booster pack.

Quote from: Pelorus;343757I'm of the school that says someone who is a horseback warrior from an equestrian culture shouldn't have to make a Ride roll to gallop down a street. This sort of discussion sparks much debate in our RQ games because we have some amazingly powerful heroes and they get such bad dice rolls.

I agree with you.  I actually use a combo of old RQ and new MRQ rules  and in my games skill rolls are only used when you are doing something extraordinary.  IIRC one of the games in the BRP/RQ line actually says that. The way we play it, for example, galloping down a nearly empty street shouldn't require a skill test but galloping down a crowded street at midday should require a skill test to either avoid or deliberately ride down pedestrians (player preference).  Of course the occasional fumbled die roll is amusing, but at the risk of sounding like a "story gamer"* I don't think the game benefits from players stopping to make die rolls in every situation.  A good example IMHO is in "Fear of Girls" when Krunk the Barbarian meets the Elf princess in the dungeon:

Raymond/Krunk: "I'm going to have sex with her."
GM: "Okay. Roll for it".

Mind you it is not that I want to role play one of my gaming buddies trying to seduce some chick (fortunately they are all married and are probably worried their wives will overhear anyway) but it is better for players to think and come up with a plausible strategy to do something in character than to just rely on the luck of the roll to solve everything.  OTOH, going back to the OP, I don't care if the player's dream is to bang an Elf princess, I don't think it is my job to tailor the game "bring his secret dreams to life", that is why they invented internet porn!  In the Krunk/Elf scenario above, unless he has mad seduction skills or at the very least some ruffies, Krunk would only be getting intimate with her steel-toed boot in his nards.

*Ron Edwards would have to pry my D100 out of my cold dead fingers first.

I tried to join a group of "Story game" players once. They were really serious about it. The story teller just talked and talked. Occasionally he asked a player what they might do, but usually twisted it to his needs for the story anyway. It was the most mind numbing and boring session I have ever sat in on. Maybe I could have enjoyed it if I knew 3 years of story history or if the segment I witnessed made any sense.

Unfortunately it left a bad taste in my mouth for that style of play. I'm sure plenty of players enjoy it. But it's not for me and I doubt I'll try it again. Odd, I'm usually really opened minded. Crap, that experience scarred me. Maybe I should try it again...

Oh, and;

Quote from: Pelorus;343757Totally with you on the card gamer front. Godless soulless bastards who'd skin their own granny for a booster pack.

Funny, even though I play those games too.

Quote from: Malvor;343829I tried to join a group of "Story game" players once. They were really serious about it. The story teller just talked and talked. Occasionally he asked a player what they might do, but usually twisted it to his needs for the story anyway.

That's not even "story gaming."  That's just pure GM masturbation.

Hopefully it wasn't a WoD game, because if so they're really misrepresenting the line.  The games are quite good if you can avoid asshats like the ones you encountered.

Quote from: Pelorus;343757I'm of the school that says someone who is a horseback warrior from an equestrian culture shouldn't have to make a Ride roll to gallop down a street.

But how often does that sort of thing really come up among gamers who are, say, more than twelve years old?

I see stuff like this thrown out there, and so often digging down a little bit one finds that (1) the person is recounting a youthful gaming experience or (2) what one gamer describes as JRA ("just riding along") was actually racing full-tilt-boogie down a street blocked by flaming barricades and a teeming crowd amid volleys of musket fire: "But of course my character should be able to do it! See, right here on my character sheet, I wrote 'Skill: Can Do ANYTHING in the Saddle!'"

I know some gamers really get tweaked about runs of bad luck with the dice; in my experience it's often a problem with a system that's too random (such as rolling 1d20 instead of 2d10). But there are ways around this, from 'taking 10' in d20 games to allowing characters with high skill levels of experience to succeed: in Flashing Blades, the rules state that a character who is a Master or Master Superior in a skill should't be asked to roll for all but the most challenging circumstances, and then they get a +3 or +6 bonus if the gamemaster calls for a skill check.

Quote from: The Shaman;343842But how often does that sort of thing really come up among gamers who are, say, more than twelve years old?

It's happened this year. And I think I'm second youngest out of a 5 man group (and I'm 37!).

Quote from: The Shaman;343842I know some gamers really get tweaked about runs of bad luck with the dice; in my experience it's often a problem with a system that's too random (such as rolling 1d20 instead of 2d10).

I sat twiddling my thumbs through an entire session of Delta Green with the same group because I fumbled climbing a tree (out of 60% climb) in non-dramatic circumstances and took so much damage (critical rules) I had to be driven to hospital. Now THAT was fun.

Don't get me wrong, I love BRP. I love the feel and the detail. But the dice scare the nads off me. And they love BRP -  and wouldn't consider moving to another system. Tongue in cheek, I've offered them resolution mechanics using SixSimple, my card based system (works with Tarot as well as playing cards) and they've called me all the names you would think appropriate for a pretentious twat like me.

But I continue to play with them because they're good guys, fun gamers and the plots are excellent.

Quote from: Malvor;343829I tried to join a group of "Story game" players once. They were really serious about it. The story teller just talked and talked. Occasionally he asked a player what they might do, but usually twisted it to his needs for the story anyway. It was the most mind numbing and boring session I have ever sat in on. Maybe I could have enjoyed it if I knew 3 years of story history or if the segment I witnessed made any sense.

Unfortunately it left a bad taste in my mouth for that style of play. I'm sure plenty of players enjoy it. But it's not for me and I doubt I'll try it again. Odd, I'm usually really opened minded. Crap, that experience scarred me. Maybe I should try it again...

Oh, and;


Funny, even though I play those games too.

Bad GM'ing and railroading can occur in any type of game.  I had a very similar situation in a Gamma World game at Gencon.  I can't remember what year exactly but it must have been late 70's and it still irritates me 30 years later.

To be honest, I've played card games too with my kids but you're right, it is still funny.

Quote from: Pelorus;343856It's happened this year. And I think I'm second youngest out of a 5 man group (and I'm 37!).

But I continue to play with them because they're good guys, fun gamers and the plots are excellent.

Your last line is the most important one.  If you are having fun who cares what rules you are using.  

I think Shaman is right that over emphasis on dice rolls is more common among younger gamers but I've seen more experienced gamers who picked up the habit early on and still do it.  In addition to over-rolling mundane situations,  I've also seen the opposite situation where you have players who think they can accomplish the impossible just because they rolled a special or critical.  Logic has to ultimately be the deciding factor.

I've played so many versions of RQ/BRP over the years that I can't remember where I saw it, but I know in one of the rules sets it specifically said that skill rolls aren't needed for everyday activities and should be reserved for actions under pressure or that are extraordinary, as Shaman mentioned.  IMO he hit the nail on the head, in that too many die rolls can make the games too random.  For that reason I stopped rolling dice for the reactions of major NPC's a long time ago since IMO interactions with the PC's shouldn't be governed by random dice rolls.

I had better stop before I start sounding like a story gamer.

Quote from: Peregrin;343833That's not even "story gaming."  That's just pure GM masturbation.

That's a good way to describe my Gamma World experience, and probably literally true since it started after a girl joined the group (nearly unheard of in those days) and he bent over backwards to make her happy despite the fact that she hadn't even signed up for the game.