Quote from: King of Old SchoolYeah, but once Mongoose was announced as the publisher this was pretty much a given.  I can't think of another major RPG publisher with such a well-deserved reputation for craptacular design and production values.  Whoever does the design work for Mongoose is more than likely both (a) colour-blind, and (b) thinks the highwater mark for graphic design was reached in the late 1980s and should be consistently emulated today.  Of course, they make up for the crappy look of their books by giving them crappy editing and crappy bindings.

Matt Sprange seems like a decent enough fellow I suppose, but for me Mongoose is the very embodiment of lowest-common-denominator, cut-rate crap (for premium prices, too!) in RPG development.  I wouldn't touch a Mongoose product with a ten-foot pole.

KoOS

Have you looked at Conan? I have the Pocket Handbook, and that's pretty cool. Mongoose also published a d20 version of Slaine. The layout and graphic design in the core rule book is great. My only complaint about the book is that the pages are so glossy, that it's uncomfortable to my skin (yes, I'm weird). Otherwise, it looks great. The Slaine rules are interesting too.

Quote from: King of Old SchoolI wouldn't touch a Mongoose product with a ten-foot pole.

Believe me, I understand. However, As Sacrificial Lamb notes, you should check out Conan. It's a fantastic piece of work, as are its supplements. The core book is beautiful. I have the "Atlantean" or revised edition, which apparently fixed a ton of problems from the first printing. However, since that first initial misstep, the Conan RPG has been of uniformly high quality. As SL also notes, Slaine is a very pretty book, but it uses art from the comics, so that's not surprising. But, I've seen plenty of other Mongoose products, and I feel that many of their products look lackluster, at best.

Licensed stuff is usually okay.  Original, not so much.  Remixed OGL products are the bland McDonalds crap reheated in the microwave.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambHave you looked at Conan?

That would be the Conan game that was so messed up on the first print that they rushed out a fixed 'Atlantean Edition', and then published a city boxed set with plagiarized maps?  I'm a huge Conan fan but I'm not buying a third official Conan rpg when the company producing it has it's head that far up its behind.

Quote from: King of Old SchoolYeah, but once Mongoose was announced as the publisher this was pretty much a given.  I can't think of another major RPG publisher with such a well-deserved reputation for craptacular design and production values.  Whoever does the design work for Mongoose is more than likely both (a) colour-blind, and (b) thinks the highwater mark for graphic design was reached in the late 1980s and should be consistently emulated today.  Of course, they make up for the crappy look of their books by giving them crappy editing and crappy bindings.

To be fair, though, Mongoose were responsible for the (truly excellent) latest edition of Paranoia. They made sure a Paranoia old-timer (Allen Varney) had control of the project and he did a great job (the distinction between the three main Paranoia play styles - Zap, Classic, and Straight - is genius). The art is right, and the production of the books, while mildly retro, is in fact a deliberate throwback to the design of the 1st and 2nd editions of the games, so the nostalgia value really helps.

To go from Paranoia - a rerelease which showed genuine sympathy and respect for the source material - to MRQ... wow. Just wow.

Quote from: jrientsThat would be the Conan game that was so messed up on the first print that they rushed out a fixed 'Atlantean Edition', and then published a city boxed set with plagiarized maps?  I'm a huge Conan fan but I'm not buying a third official Conan rpg when the company producing it has it's head that far up its behind.

You're losing out, really. It's fantastic. I'd stick with the core book, The Scrolls of Skelos, and The Road of Kings. Mongoose really rose to the occasion, and actually has Vincent Darlage working on the game, which is very cool. Darlage had the definitive (in my opinion) Conan RPG website, dedicated to a d20 version of Conan in the early days of d20. Check out that site, and then remember this is one of the main guys working on Mongoose's Conan RPG: http://www.enworld.org/Inzeladun/conan.htm

I'm trying to think of what the three Conan RPGs are. I have the TSR RPG from 1985, I have the current OGL Conan, and I don't know what the third one is. I have the GURPS Conan sourcebook, as well as the AD&D modules from the mid 80s. What is the third RPG?

I'd say that "Gurps traveller: Interstellar wars" has to be considered a bit of a strinker for not having a single piece of gear in it, not a single spacesuit, not a single weapon, nothing.

Cyberpunk 3 this year? Then yeah, gotta be that. And I was really looking foward to that too.

WotG... Well, I would like it a lot more if Martial Arts were done more like Sacred Arts. That is, Martial Arts was a series of methods for managing and using Chi, not a list of styles with specific techniques. The reason I looked to WotG so much was that I wanted a replacement for Exalted that didn't involve the endless Charm lists. The Martial Arts list was less lengthy than the Charms list, but still too long.

Also, WotG = Wuxia, not anime. Very different. Wuxia comics is a genre, anime is not a genre, and even martial arts anime usually takes quite a different tone than wuxia comics. Naruto, Dragonball Z, and, uh, probably some more mature less silly ones I can't think of are VERY different from Heaven Sword, Dragon Saber and Weapons of the Gods and Storm Riders.

Quote from: jrientsThat would be the Conan game that was so messed up on the first print that they rushed out a fixed 'Atlantean Edition', and then published a city boxed set with plagiarized maps?  I'm a huge Conan fan but I'm not buying a third official Conan rpg when the company producing it has it's head that far up its behind.

Well people may have bitched about the first print of the Conan game but I thought it was the best OGL product I've bought in years.

And one of those things that was "messed up" is that they spell pole axe incorectly as I recall.

In other words, no mistake in the book makes it harder to use, or any less fun to read.

Ive been critical of Mongoose books in the past, but Conan is just a flat-out GREAT book.

Now about the plagiarized maps... Im not sure how that falls at Mongoose's doorstep. Unless you expect them to know EVERY MAP done for EVERY fantasy game EVER.

And the person who drew that map worked for RPGObjects on our Excalibur game. He's a GREAT cartographer (as well as a great guy based on my limited interaction with him). So it's not like they went with a substandard artist and got burned. They were using one of the best cartographers in all of RPGs (in my opinion) who made a spectacularly bad call.

But still... given that the map was about a decade old, and given that the map turned into Mongoose was an ALTERED version of that plagiarized map... Im not sure how you can expect them to notice it.

It's the sort of thing where a company is at the mercy of the artist, which is why it kills artists careers in most cases when it happens.

Quote from: SethwickCyberpunk 3 this year? Then yeah, gotta be that. And I was really looking foward to that too.

Indeed. Its sad when a fantasy version (Shadowrun) gets technology "more" right than the supposed pure "near Future SF" one

The sad thing it looks like they were trying to make it more like the Transhuman "Raver" type game than Cyberpunk--posthuman rather than not, but frankly David Pulver (even in the Centuari Knights "less serious" Transhuman) outwrites whoever did C3.

Quote from: SilverlionIndeed. Its sad when a fantasy version (Shadowrun) gets technology "more" right than the supposed pure "near Future SF" one

The sad thing it looks like they were trying to make it more like the Transhuman "Raver" type game than Cyberpunk--posthuman rather than not, but frankly David Pulver (even in the Centuari Knights "less serious" Transhuman) outwrites whoever did C3.

I'm probably the only one, but I disagree (although I agree with the first half of the second paragraph). I think all three cyberpunk games have a place--Cybergeneration is like superhero-cyberpunk, 2020 IS cyberpunk, but 203X adds a lot of options that I like. For example, I particularly like how cultures have been added and affect the types of characters (classes) you can make based on them. The art is easily ignored, and doesn't really bother me. I think a lot of people look at it expecting an extension of 2020, but it is a completely different beast (and on purpose). Anyway, my two cents.

Now, I might mention 203X in the other thread about better setting than system, because Fuzion isn't my favorite, but I wouldn't call it a stinker. I can think of far worse stinkers (I won't mention any though out of respect for my fellow publishers).

I too will leap to defend Mongoose's Conan -- it's pretty swank.  You can become distracted by piles of gold, are assumed to have lost most of your money between this adventure and last AND, if you're down to 0 hp, you  can regain a hit point and keep fighting if you drink a mug of wine.  

"Ha!  Shemite dogs!  The fire of battle courses in my veins anew!  Say what you will of the Zingarans -- their brews are as sharp a their steel!"  And with that, Conan leapt from the table into the center of the mob, and with mighty prowess and renewed vigor slashed at them with contempt and fury...

Colonel:  I was counting the GURPS edition as one of the two I own.

Chuck:  When I'm already hearing bad things about the corebook, a dodgy boxed set is just another brick in the wall whether Mongoose can be held morally responsible or not.  Hearing about these kinds of gaffs makes me nervous about buying.

I will readily admit that part of my problem is that I am grumpy about never having played the two Conan games I've owned since the year originally published.  It makes me wonder if two decades from now the Mongoose version will be gathering dust on my shelf.  That's not Mongoose's fault either, but it still informs my purchase decision.

On the other hand, this is the first time I've heard concerted praise for Mongoose's Conan from people whose opinions I respect.

Quote from: jrientsOn the other hand, this is the first time I've heard concerted praise for Mongoose's Conan from people whose opinions I respect.

Make sure to get the revised Atlantean Edition if you get the Conan RPG. It fixed the most glaring problems with the first print, and I've yet to hear of any problems cropping up with the Atlantean Edition.

Quote from: jrients... On the other hand, this is the first time I've heard concerted praise for Mongoose's Conan from people whose opinions I respect.

The first time?  That's a bit surprising, as it seems to be one Mongoose game that is consistently praised on RPG fora (e.g. the Purple Place & ENworld), despite the initial editing problems and the map fiasco.

Slaine and Lonewolf also get some praise, but Conan seems to have quite a few fans.

Mongoose is strange.  They have a few gems (Conan, Paranoia), while completely fucking up other lines (Runequest, their d20 products).