Today's announcement from Steve Jackson Games is full-steam partisan/activist/pro-abortion. I don't care what side you fall on: pro-abortion, or the side that's on the right side of history. Right to privacy? Keep your extremism private.
Official word from Steve Jackson, alienating the majority of people.
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/July_08_2022/Roe_v_Wade
They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children. (Link to the "charity" http://www.lilithfund.org )
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
Today's announcement from Steve Jackson Games is full-steam partisan/activist/pro-abortion. I don't care what side you fall on: pro-abortion, or the side that's on the right side of history. Right to privacy? Keep your extremism private.
Official word from Steve Jackson, alienating the majority of people.
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/July_08_2022/Roe_v_Wade
They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children. (Link to the "charity" http://www.lilithfund.org )
Lilith fund?! ??? ROTFLMAO! They should have just called it the Moloch fund.
Someone on their forums pleaded:
QuoteI have a heartfelt request for SJG, can the company be apolitical no matter the hot button topic? Whatever the stance of the company it will always alienate someone. It would be best if company opinions are nebulous so that no-one unintentionally left with the feeling that they have the wrong opinion or being felt attacked for not agreeing. I buy GURPS books to get away from the worldly things I can't control and I don't really want that baggage in the back of my mind every time I buy a new book.
Their reply was that they have to alienate people:
QuoteAbsolutely not, especially not from the person who owns the company. We have, as a company and individually, always been fairly forward with our opinions on social and political issues, and will continue to be so either individually or as a company voice. If we feel the issue is important enough to comment on as a company, like this one, you will see it.
The entire company is in lockstep. I wonder if this means people have to profess SJG's ideology before they can be employed. That's discrimination. If not, what do they do to the employees that SJG alienates?
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
Today's announcement from Steve Jackson Games is full-steam partisan/activist/pro-abortion. I don't care what side you fall on: pro-abortion, or the side that's on the right side of history. Right to privacy? Keep your extremism private.
Official word from Steve Jackson, alienating the majority of people.
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/July_08_2022/Roe_v_Wade
They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children. (Link to the "charity" http://www.lilithfund.org )
I wish I could say that I'm surprised by this, but I'm not. SJG puts out good game products, but they have been anti-conservative since the Secret Service raided their offices over GURPS: Cyberpunk.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children.
Please, keep your political opinions in the appropriate forum. I understand that abortion is extremely divisive and I agree that it is not the job of an entertainment company to lecture on political matters, but for the very same reason this is not the right forum where to do the same.
Quote from: Reckall on July 08, 2022, 06:39:09 AM
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children.
Please, keep your political opinions in the appropriate forum. I understand that abortion is extremely divisive and I agree that it is not the job of an entertainment company to lecture on political matters, but for the very same reason this is not the right forum where to do the same.
I understand, although that sentence was a fact, not an opinion.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:45:34 AM
Quote from: Reckall on July 08, 2022, 06:39:09 AM
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children.
Please, keep your political opinions in the appropriate forum. I understand that abortion is extremely divisive and I agree that it is not the job of an entertainment company to lecture on political matters, but for the very same reason this is not the right forum where to do the same.
I understand, although that sentence was a fact, not an opinion.
Trying to snuck the same political stance in a fake acknowledgement is not as smart as you think. Post about politics and your political views in the appropriate forum.
Once again, I will.
Damn! I always had evil Stevie pegged as a solid conservative. Maybe I misjudged him. Gotta check this out. Thanks, cr!
Anyway, abortion is always kinda funny to me. Christians are against it despite their god being a big believer in killing babies before and after birth. If they'd learn to read and read their Bible's instead of waving them they'd know that. But in the bible killing babies isn't the womans choice and she usually dies too. Apparently they only object to it when it's the woman's choice and she survives.
Also I have yet to meet or see an anti abortion type who wasn't a compelling argument for abortion.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 07:35:03 AM
Damn! I always had evil Stevie pegged as a solid conservative. Maybe I misjudged him. Gotta check this out. Thanks, cr!
Maybe he is but not on this matter.
Speaking for me, I use to have my opinions on a score of topics. You could say that most of them fall within a certain political spectrum but some extremely don't. I don't like for an external complex of ideologies to dictate how I must think, which is why I never entered politics.
Quote from: Reckall on July 08, 2022, 07:46:45 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 07:35:03 AM
Damn! I always had evil Stevie pegged as a solid conservative. Maybe I misjudged him. Gotta check this out. Thanks, cr!
Maybe he is but not on this matter.
Speaking for me, I use to have my opinions on a score of topics. You could say that most of them fall within a certain political spectrum but some extremely don't. I don't like for an external complex of ideologies to dictate how I must think, which is why I never entered politics.
You know I never was a fan of Ayn Rhand,and never met anyone who was that wasn't an asshole, but she did have ut right when she said that you can decide not to take in interest in politics, but politics can decide to take an interest in you.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 07:52:05 AM
Quote from: Reckall on July 08, 2022, 07:46:45 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 07:35:03 AM
Damn! I always had evil Stevie pegged as a solid conservative. Maybe I misjudged him. Gotta check this out. Thanks, cr!
Maybe he is but not on this matter.
Speaking for me, I use to have my opinions on a score of topics. You could say that most of them fall within a certain political spectrum but some extremely don't. I don't like for an external complex of ideologies to dictate how I must think, which is why I never entered politics.
You know I never was a fan of Ayn Rhand,and never met anyone who was that wasn't an asshole, but she did have ut right when she said that you can decide not to take in interest in politics, but politics can decide to take an interest in you.
I think that, in today's World, "politics" should be substituted with "economic powers".
Quote from: Reckall on July 08, 2022, 06:39:09 AM
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children.
Please, keep your political opinions in the appropriate forum. I understand that abortion is extremely divisive and I agree that it is not the job of an entertainment company to lecture on political matters, but for the very same reason this is not the right forum where to do the same.
You do realize that your country's laws on Abortion would have been called zealous Pro-Life legislation if enacted here today? I don't think you have the slightest clue what you're actually saying.
In Italy you're limited to the first 90 days (12.5 weeks) unless life of mother is at risk and medical professionals have the right to conscientiously object to performing abortions.
The Left in the United States has demanded to be able to rip babies limb from limb right up to the moment of birth for any whim. The Left has been pushing new legislation to allow them to murder children up to a month AFTER birth if they change their mind. They are also demanding that medical professionals be forced to perform procedures they find morally objectionable or lose their license to practice and want their murder of babies to be celebrated by one and all on pain of ejection from society.
No, that IS State-mandated infant sacrifice to the Leftists' god that Steve Jackson is screeching about... that instead of the court imposing this satanic practice across the country by the fiat of nine men in robes, that instead it must be decided by representatives of the people in each state. Representative Democracy instead of Authoritarian Fiat? Oh, the HORROR!!!
And THIS is the hill that Steve Jackson has chosen for his company to die upon. That six unelected dead white men (and one black man) had the right to impose morality on hundreds of millions. That coercive power should be used to force doctors and nurses to violate their consciences because seven men in robes said so. That babies in the middle of labor can be ripped to pieces, their skulls crushed and their brains vacuumed out because the mother decided she'd rather not have stretch marks because sevrn men in robes said so.
Well, fuck Steve Jackson and his company. No one was asking him to take a stand one way or the other. He could have kept his damnable mouth shut and alienated no one. Now he's doubled down on saying half the population (and a much larger majority who didn't want it banned but that common sense restrictions like those in Italy should be in place) shouldn't buy from him because he'll just use the proceeds to help fund what they find morally objectionable.
He and his company are the literal definition of Bright Red on the Woke Company List; idiots who use their politics to virtue signal their compliance to the Woke and actually make it immoral to support their company financially to a whole bunch of religious people (i.e. they are now providing material support to what my Church considers an intrinsically evil act).
I know they've lost at least four customers from this and it's a shame because my godkids really love Munchkin.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 08, 2022, 08:23:36 AM
Quote from: Reckall on July 08, 2022, 06:39:09 AM
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children.
Please, keep your political opinions in the appropriate forum. I understand that abortion is extremely divisive and I agree that it is not the job of an entertainment company to lecture on political matters, but for the very same reason this is not the right forum where to do the same.
You do realize that your country's laws on Abortion would have been called zealous Pro-Life legislation if enacted here today? I don't think you have the slightest clue what you're actually saying.
In Italy you're limited to the first 90 days (12.5 weeks) unless life of mother is at risk and medical professionals have the right to conscientiously object to performing abortions.
The Left in the United States has demanded to be able to rip babies limb from limb right up to the moment of birth for any whim. The Left has been pushing new legislation to allow them to murder children up to a month AFTER birth if they change their mind. They are also demanding that medical professionals be forced to perform procedures they find morally objectionable or lose their license to practice and want their murder of babies to be celebrated by one and all on pain of ejection from society.
No, that IS State-mandated infant sacrifice to the Leftists' god that Steve Jackson is screeching about... that instead of the court imposing this satanic practice across the country by the fiat of nine men in robes, that instead it must be decided by representatives of the people in each state. Representative Democracy instead of Authoritarian Fiat? Oh, the HORROR!!!
And THIS is the hill that Steve Jackson has chosen for his company to die upon. That six unelected dead white men (and one black man) had the right to impose morality on hundreds of millions. That coercive power should be used to force doctors and nurses to violate their consciences because seven men in robes said so. That babies in the middle of labor can be ripped to pieces, their skulls crushed and their brains vacuumed out because the mother decided she'd rather not have stretch marks because sevrn men in robes said so.
Well, fuck Steve Jackson and his company. No one was asking him to take a stand one way or the other. He could have kept his damnable mouth shut and alienated no one. Now he's doubled down on saying half the population (and a much larger majority who didn't want it banned but that common sense restrictions like those in Italy should be in place) shouldn't buy from him because he'll just use the proceeds to help fund what they find morally objectionable.
He and his company are the literal definition of Bright Red on the Woke Company List; idiots who use their politics to virtue signal their compliance to the Woke and actually make it immoral to support their company financially to a whole bunch of religious people (i.e. they are now providing material support to what my Church considers an intrinsically evil act).
I know they've lost at least four customers from this and it's a shame because my godkids really love Munchkin.
And here we have an example of critical failure in "roll on your
'keep politics in the appropriate forum' skill".
Quotea woman's choices
SJG said "woman" rather than "birthing person" or "uterus owner." Can't wait until the woke call them out for "transphobia."
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2022, 09:15:57 AM
Quotea woman's choices
SJG said "woman" rather than "birthing person" or "uterus owner." Can't wait until the woke call them out for "transphobia."
^^^^^This, exactly. It'll be interesting to see if the announcement will be edited sometime in the future. And I was just astounded that Stevey boy said as a white strait old man that he's afraid. Sigh.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 08, 2022, 08:23:36 AM
Quote from: Reckall on July 08, 2022, 06:39:09 AM
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children.
Please, keep your political opinions in the appropriate forum. I understand that abortion is extremely divisive and I agree that it is not the job of an entertainment company to lecture on political matters, but for the very same reason this is not the right forum where to do the same.
You do realize that your country's laws on Abortion would have been called zealous Pro-Life legislation if enacted here today? I don't think you have the slightest clue what you're actually saying.
In Italy you're limited to the first 90 days (12.5 weeks) unless life of mother is at risk and medical professionals have the right to conscientiously object to performing abortions.
The Left in the United States has demanded to be able to rip babies limb from limb right up to the moment of birth for any whim. The Left has been pushing new legislation to allow them to murder children up to a month AFTER birth if they change their mind. They are also demanding that medical professionals be forced to perform procedures they find morally objectionable or lose their license to practice and want their murder of babies to be celebrated by one and all on pain of ejection from society.
No, that IS State-mandated infant sacrifice to the Leftists' god that Steve Jackson is screeching about... that instead of the court imposing this satanic practice across the country by the fiat of nine men in robes, that instead it must be decided by representatives of the people in each state. Representative Democracy instead of Authoritarian Fiat? Oh, the HORROR!!!
And THIS is the hill that Steve Jackson has chosen for his company to die upon. That six unelected dead white men (and one black man) had the right to impose morality on hundreds of millions. That coercive power should be used to force doctors and nurses to violate their consciences because seven men in robes said so. That babies in the middle of labor can be ripped to pieces, their skulls crushed and their brains vacuumed out because the mother decided she'd rather not have stretch marks because sevrn men in robes said so.
Well, fuck Steve Jackson and his company. No one was asking him to take a stand one way or the other. He could have kept his damnable mouth shut and alienated no one. Now he's doubled down on saying half the population (and a much larger majority who didn't want it banned but that common sense restrictions like those in Italy should be in place) shouldn't buy from him because he'll just use the proceeds to help fund what they find morally objectionable.
He and his company are the literal definition of Bright Red on the Woke Company List; idiots who use their politics to virtue signal their compliance to the Woke and actually make it immoral to support their company financially to a whole bunch of religious people (i.e. they are now providing material support to what my Church considers an intrinsically evil act).
I know they've lost at least four customers from this and it's a shame because my godkids really love Munchkin.
So would your church consider NOT killing a gay person to be an intrinsically evil act? After all, 'duh buybull sez...! '
Quote from: S'mon on July 08, 2022, 06:21:58 AM
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
Today's announcement from Steve Jackson Games is full-steam partisan/activist/pro-abortion. I don't care what side you fall on: pro-abortion, or the side that's on the right side of history. Right to privacy? Keep your extremism private.
Official word from Steve Jackson, alienating the majority of people.
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/July_08_2022/Roe_v_Wade
They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children. (Link to the "charity" http://www.lilithfund.org )
Lilith fund?! ??? ROTFLMAO! They should have just called it the Moloch fund.
Seriously, when I saw that I was like "Jesus, fuck! Could you be a little less on the nose about it than naming your fund after a demon who steals and kills babies?"
And I don't even care about the unborn, but I'm also not on the other extreme lunatic "let's just murder actual babies while we're at it" side of this issue. Like WTF?
And when you go to their website, their About section is like 80% about affirming intersectional nonsense rather than actually saying what they do for women, cuz they can't, since that would go against their "gender-inclusive" stance.
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 08, 2022, 09:54:16 AM
Quote from: S'mon on July 08, 2022, 06:21:58 AM
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
Today's announcement from Steve Jackson Games is full-steam partisan/activist/pro-abortion. I don't care what side you fall on: pro-abortion, or the side that's on the right side of history. Right to privacy? Keep your extremism private.
Official word from Steve Jackson, alienating the majority of people.
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/July_08_2022/Roe_v_Wade
They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children. (Link to the "charity" http://www.lilithfund.org )
Lilith fund?! ??? ROTFLMAO! They should have just called it the Moloch fund.
Seriously, when I saw that I was like "Jesus, fuck! Could you be a little less on the nose about it than naming your fund after a demon who steals and kills babies?"
And I don't even care about the unborn, but I'm also not on the other extreme lunatic "let's just murder actual babies while we're at it" side of this issue. Like WTF?
And when you go to their website, their About section is like 80% about affirming intersectional nonsense rather than actually saying what they do for women, cuz they can't, since that would go against their "gender-inclusive" stance.
They can't talk about what they want to do for women, because they don't know what women are. They're not biologists, after all :D
But yeah. Sorry, SJG, off to the red you go. Enjoy your virtue signaling.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 08, 2022, 09:57:44 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 08, 2022, 09:54:16 AM
Quote from: S'mon on July 08, 2022, 06:21:58 AM
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
Today's announcement from Steve Jackson Games is full-steam partisan/activist/pro-abortion. I don't care what side you fall on: pro-abortion, or the side that's on the right side of history. Right to privacy? Keep your extremism private.
Official word from Steve Jackson, alienating the majority of people.
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/July_08_2022/Roe_v_Wade
They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children. (Link to the "charity" http://www.lilithfund.org )
Lilith fund?! ??? ROTFLMAO! They should have just called it the Moloch fund.
Seriously, when I saw that I was like "Jesus, fuck! Could you be a little less on the nose about it than naming your fund after a demon who steals and kills babies?"
And I don't even care about the unborn, but I'm also not on the other extreme lunatic "let's just murder actual babies while we're at it" side of this issue. Like WTF?
And when you go to their website, their About section is like 80% about affirming intersectional nonsense rather than actually saying what they do for women, cuz they can't, since that would go against their "gender-inclusive" stance.
They can't talk about what they want to do for women, because they don't know what women are. They're not biologists, after all :D
But yeah. Sorry, SJG, off to the red you go. Enjoy your virtue signaling.
Oh fuck you anti woke bitches!
Supporting abortion is not woke. Demanding you use chosen pronouns, not use the word 'gypsy', demanding you call a known individual 'they', forcing businesses to make their restrooms non gender, trying to force female spess muhreens on 40k players, demanding every fucking show on TV have a couple lgbtqpoc1256285 character, ad nauseum, THAT is woke.
Christ I'm sick if woke, but the people who drag bitching about woke into everything are annoying as fuck too.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 09:40:02 AM
So would your church consider NOT killing a gay person to be an intrinsically evil act? After all, 'duh buybull sez...! '
What does this have to do with Steve Jackson Games deciding to Woke virtue signal in a way that alienates at least half his potential customers?
The issue of abortion is divisive political one that one side considers government sanctioned murder of innocent children. Game companies need have nothing to do with the issue and yet Steve Jackson has chosen to insert his company into the issue in way that specifically says "by buying my products you will be supporting something half the country finds morally objectionable."
That is textbook Red company behavior and so is absolutely relevant to the discussions in this forum on how politics relates to gaming (which is what Reckall is getting wrong... it's not a no politics forum, it's no politics unrelated to gaming... Steve Jackson's decision to go political on the issue makes it a valid topic in discussing why it's a boneheaded move to alienate a huge swath of people who think abortion is murder and will no longer be buying his products as a result).
But in typical idiot Lefty fashion, you can't win that argument so you try to drag people off the topic into general politics hoping that Pundit will react as he should to off topic posts and then stand there feigning innocence. My only comment to your attempted derail is that I believe the following in total; https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM (https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM)
I also do not consider it an accident that your avatar is a
Big Purple Troll.
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 08, 2022, 09:54:16 AM
Quote from: S'mon on July 08, 2022, 06:21:58 AM
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
Today's announcement from Steve Jackson Games is full-steam partisan/activist/pro-abortion. I don't care what side you fall on: pro-abortion, or the side that's on the right side of history. Right to privacy? Keep your extremism private.
Official word from Steve Jackson, alienating the majority of people.
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/July_08_2022/Roe_v_Wade
They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children. (Link to the "charity" http://www.lilithfund.org )
Lilith fund?! ??? ROTFLMAO! They should have just called it the Moloch fund.
Seriously, when I saw that I was like "Jesus, fuck! Could you be a little less on the nose about it than naming your fund after a demon who steals and kills babies?"
And I don't even care about the unborn, but I'm also not on the other extreme lunatic "let's just murder actual babies while we're at it" side of this issue. Like WTF?
And when you go to their website, their About section is like 80% about affirming intersectional nonsense rather than actually saying what they do for women, cuz they can't, since that would go against their "gender-inclusive" stance.
Just curious. Where's this About section? Not seeing it...
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 08, 2022, 10:19:27 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 09:40:02 AM
So would your church consider NOT killing a gay person to be an intrinsically evil act? After all, 'duh buybull sez...! '
What does this have to do with Steve Jackson Games deciding to Woke virtue signal in a way that alienates at least half his potential customers?
The issue of abortion is divisive political one that one side considers government sanctioned murder of innocent children. Game companies need have nothing to do with the issue and yet Steve Jackson has chosen to insert his company into the issue in way that specifically says "by buying my products you will be supporting something half the country finds morally objectionable."
That is textbook Red company behavior and so is absolutely relevant to the discussions in this forum on how politics relates to gaming (which is what Reckall is getting wrong... it's not a no politics forum, it's no politics unrelated to gaming... Steve Jackson's decision to go political on the issue makes it a valid topic in discussing why it's a boneheaded move to alienate a huge swath of people who think abortion is murder and will no longer be buying his products as a result).
But in typical idiot Lefty fashion, you can't win that argument so you try to drag people off the topic into general politics hoping that Pundit will react as he should to off topic posts and then stand there feigning innocence. My only comment to your attempted derail is that I believe the following in total; https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM (https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM)
I also do not consider it an accident that your avatar is a Big Purple Troll.
. Your kind want to force people to have babies against their will, and then force your fucking religion on people on every other issue eventually.
Well, we're not going to let you.
If you want to keep on trying, you'd better be ready for a fucking war, a real war.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 08, 2022, 10:19:27 AM
But in typical idiot Lefty fashion, you can't win that argument so you try to drag people off the topic into general politics
You are so blinded by your fanaticism that you didn't even considered that I could agree with you. This is not the point. The point is:
This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussionIt is
the first thing you read on this forum. Pundit's forum, Pundit's rules.
BTW, I wonder why no one even bothered to point out how SJ, in that very post, attacks the Right too:
Helping someone affected by one of the mass shootings that the right, and the Court, seem to be fostering out of sheer vicious perversity.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 08, 2022, 10:19:27 AMGame companies need have nothing to do with the issue and yet Steve Jackson has chosen to insert his company into the issue in way that specifically says "by buying my products you will be supporting something half the country finds morally objectionable."
That is textbook Red company behavior and so is absolutely relevant to the discussions in this forum on how politics relates to gaming (... Steve Jackson's decision to go political on the issue makes it a valid topic in discussing why it's a boneheaded move to alienate a huge swath of people who think abortion is murder and will no longer be buying his products as a result).
I admit to some morbid curiosity about what kind of actual business case they thought they were making. Does SJG really believe that the market they gain from taking this stance will publicly make up for what they lose?
Perhaps they don't expect to lose very much. I can certainly commit to buying no more SJG products ... but the thing is, I wasn't doing that any more anyway, and not because of Jackson's politics but because my leisure/entertainment buying has gone through the floor for lack of time. And given the tragic lack of active traditional religious folks in the hobby gaming scene these days, I can imagine them concluding that this wouldn't cost them many customers.
On the other hand, I can't see that anyone who wasn't buying SJG products before would be likely to start now solely because of this particular stance. And given how close most game publishers operate to the edge of viability anyway, I can't help but think that alienating
any of your audience for whatever reason is not a very good idea.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 09:40:02 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 08, 2022, 08:23:36 AM
Quote from: Reckall on July 08, 2022, 06:39:09 AM
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children.
Please, keep your political opinions in the appropriate forum. I understand that abortion is extremely divisive and I agree that it is not the job of an entertainment company to lecture on political matters, but for the very same reason this is not the right forum where to do the same.
You do realize that your country's laws on Abortion would have been called zealous Pro-Life legislation if enacted here today? I don't think you have the slightest clue what you're actually saying.
In Italy you're limited to the first 90 days (12.5 weeks) unless life of mother is at risk and medical professionals have the right to conscientiously object to performing abortions.
The Left in the United States has demanded to be able to rip babies limb from limb right up to the moment of birth for any whim. The Left has been pushing new legislation to allow them to murder children up to a month AFTER birth if they change their mind. They are also demanding that medical professionals be forced to perform procedures they find morally objectionable or lose their license to practice and want their murder of babies to be celebrated by one and all on pain of ejection from society.
No, that IS State-mandated infant sacrifice to the Leftists' god that Steve Jackson is screeching about... that instead of the court imposing this satanic practice across the country by the fiat of nine men in robes, that instead it must be decided by representatives of the people in each state. Representative Democracy instead of Authoritarian Fiat? Oh, the HORROR!!!
And THIS is the hill that Steve Jackson has chosen for his company to die upon. That six unelected dead white men (and one black man) had the right to impose morality on hundreds of millions. That coercive power should be used to force doctors and nurses to violate their consciences because seven men in robes said so. That babies in the middle of labor can be ripped to pieces, their skulls crushed and their brains vacuumed out because the mother decided she'd rather not have stretch marks because sevrn men in robes said so.
Well, fuck Steve Jackson and his company. No one was asking him to take a stand one way or the other. He could have kept his damnable mouth shut and alienated no one. Now he's doubled down on saying half the population (and a much larger majority who didn't want it banned but that common sense restrictions like those in Italy should be in place) shouldn't buy from him because he'll just use the proceeds to help fund what they find morally objectionable.
He and his company are the literal definition of Bright Red on the Woke Company List; idiots who use their politics to virtue signal their compliance to the Woke and actually make it immoral to support their company financially to a whole bunch of religious people (i.e. they are now providing material support to what my Church considers an intrinsically evil act).
I know they've lost at least four customers from this and it's a shame because my godkids really love Munchkin.
So would your church consider NOT killing a gay person to be an intrinsically evil act? After all, 'duh buybull sez...! '
If you really want to go down this road, out of all of the things forbidden to man in Leviticus, having sexual relations with a child is not listed. So pedos are completely safe in the words of the Bible, as long as their victims don't conform to any of the other forbidden fruits.
But let's just leave the Bible-thumping (of both espousing or denouncing it's virtue) out of this thread and keep it gaming related and not diatribe related?
On that note, I can see this decision coming from SJG as impacting his business negatively. But like most who espouse supporting public political stances on hot-button issues, the company doesn't care and no amount of crying about it on a forum will change that. So vote with your wallets.
I can say that I wasn't really buying many SJG products anyway, so my continued lack of support won't help or hinder the company.
Quote from: Reckall on July 08, 2022, 10:38:39 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 08, 2022, 10:19:27 AM
But in typical idiot Lefty fashion, you can't win that argument so you try to drag people off the topic into general politics
You are so blinded by your fanaticism that you didn't even considered that I could agree with you. This is not the point. The point is:
This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion
It is the first thing you read on this forum. Pundit's forum, Pundit's rules.
BTW, I wonder why no one even bothered to point out how SJ, in that very post, attacks the Right too:
Helping someone affected by one of the mass shootings that the right, and the Court, seem to be fostering out of sheer vicious perversity.
I noticed that as well. He is clearly an Austin Texan, lol. That is probably the only city in Texas that aligns with this statement accusing the right of vicious perversity because gun laws are not much stricter than they are.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 10:09:22 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 08, 2022, 09:57:44 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 08, 2022, 09:54:16 AM
Quote from: S'mon on July 08, 2022, 06:21:58 AM
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
Today's announcement from Steve Jackson Games is full-steam partisan/activist/pro-abortion. I don't care what side you fall on: pro-abortion, or the side that's on the right side of history. Right to privacy? Keep your extremism private.
Official word from Steve Jackson, alienating the majority of people.
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/July_08_2022/Roe_v_Wade
They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children. (Link to the "charity" http://www.lilithfund.org )
Lilith fund?! ??? ROTFLMAO! They should have just called it the Moloch fund.
Seriously, when I saw that I was like "Jesus, fuck! Could you be a little less on the nose about it than naming your fund after a demon who steals and kills babies?"
And I don't even care about the unborn, but I'm also not on the other extreme lunatic "let's just murder actual babies while we're at it" side of this issue. Like WTF?
And when you go to their website, their About section is like 80% about affirming intersectional nonsense rather than actually saying what they do for women, cuz they can't, since that would go against their "gender-inclusive" stance.
They can't talk about what they want to do for women, because they don't know what women are. They're not biologists, after all :D
But yeah. Sorry, SJG, off to the red you go. Enjoy your virtue signaling.
Oh fuck you anti woke bitches!
Supporting abortion is not woke. Demanding you use chosen pronouns, not use the word 'gypsy', demanding you call a known individual 'they', forcing businesses to make their restrooms non gender, trying to force female spess muhreens on 40k players, demanding every fucking show on TV have a couple lgbtqpoc1256285 character, ad nauseum, THAT is woke.
Christ I'm sick if woke, but the people who drag bitching about woke into everything are annoying as fuck too.
This isn't just about "supporting abortion" but about pushing a specific political narrative and explicitly taking the "correct" stance about any political issue, because doing otherwise is tantamount to supporting the "systemic" oppreshun of marginalized groups, blah, blah, blah. Which is the real reason SJG put out this announcement draped in woke language about being a privileged white heterosexual male, and jumping in to mention transgender people, voter IDs and a whole other bunch of stuff that has fuck to do with abortion.
Plus were talking about stuff in the Lilith Fund website that also mentions woke stuff about pronouns and Identity stuff that has nothing to do with abortion. Are you capable of addressing what people actually say without immediately jumping into a partisan defense and reflexive attack that doesn't even address what they were actually talking about?
Quote from: Dropbear on July 08, 2022, 10:22:33 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 08, 2022, 09:54:16 AM
Quote from: S'mon on July 08, 2022, 06:21:58 AM
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
Today's announcement from Steve Jackson Games is full-steam partisan/activist/pro-abortion. I don't care what side you fall on: pro-abortion, or the side that's on the right side of history. Right to privacy? Keep your extremism private.
Official word from Steve Jackson, alienating the majority of people.
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/July_08_2022/Roe_v_Wade
They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children. (Link to the "charity" http://www.lilithfund.org )
Lilith fund?! ??? ROTFLMAO! They should have just called it the Moloch fund.
Seriously, when I saw that I was like "Jesus, fuck! Could you be a little less on the nose about it than naming your fund after a demon who steals and kills babies?"
And I don't even care about the unborn, but I'm also not on the other extreme lunatic "let's just murder actual babies while we're at it" side of this issue. Like WTF?
And when you go to their website, their About section is like 80% about affirming intersectional nonsense rather than actually saying what they do for women, cuz they can't, since that would go against their "gender-inclusive" stance.
Just curious. Where's this About section? Not seeing it...
It's at the Lilith Fund (https://www.lilithfund.org/#) website, specific page here: https://www.lilithfund.org/portfolio/about/
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 10:38:15 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 08, 2022, 10:19:27 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 09:40:02 AM
So would your church consider NOT killing a gay person to be an intrinsically evil act? After all, 'duh buybull sez...! '
What does this have to do with Steve Jackson Games deciding to Woke virtue signal in a way that alienates at least half his potential customers?
The issue of abortion is divisive political one that one side considers government sanctioned murder of innocent children. Game companies need have nothing to do with the issue and yet Steve Jackson has chosen to insert his company into the issue in way that specifically says "by buying my products you will be supporting something half the country finds morally objectionable."
That is textbook Red company behavior and so is absolutely relevant to the discussions in this forum on how politics relates to gaming (which is what Reckall is getting wrong... it's not a no politics forum, it's no politics unrelated to gaming... Steve Jackson's decision to go political on the issue makes it a valid topic in discussing why it's a boneheaded move to alienate a huge swath of people who think abortion is murder and will no longer be buying his products as a result).
But in typical idiot Lefty fashion, you can't win that argument so you try to drag people off the topic into general politics hoping that Pundit will react as he should to off topic posts and then stand there feigning innocence. My only comment to your attempted derail is that I believe the following in total; https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM (https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM)
I also do not consider it an accident that your avatar is a Big Purple Troll.
. Your kind want to force people to have babies against their will, and then force your fucking religion on people on every other issue eventually.
Well, we're not going to let you.
If you want to keep on trying, you'd better be ready for a fucking war, a real war.
None of that addresses what Chris actually said or has anything to do with this discussion, but it's just idle speculation on your part and kinda reaching.
Also, might wanna pipe down on openly declaring war on the side who has all the guns and knows how to use them, and acting like you already won this conflict when you probably won't if it comes to that.
Here's what I would say if I ran my own game company: "My personal politics are none of your business. I just want your money and recognition of the effort I put into my product."
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2022, 11:11:22 AM
Here's what I would say if I ran my own game company: "My personal politics are none of your business. I just want your money and recognition of the effort I put into my product."
Sadly, for many people that would no longer be enough. Even I have reluctantly started considering the wisdom of not giving money to people who hate my beliefs and will actively work against them. (Indeed, one of the reasons fans react so badly to finding out their favourite artists have politics different from their own is precisely this feeling of betrayal, of having had time and money "stolen" to promote something the fan hates.)
"Are the values we hold in common important enough to outweigh our conflict over the values we don't?" is a question that's going to trouble any personal, political or business relationship once it gets significant enough.
It's the eternal question of 'can you separate the art from the artist?'.
In the past, you kind of could, because most artists weren't strident about it. They didn't feel the need to act out performative virtue signaling for this or that sociopolitical agenda.
Nowadays, though, you will genuflect. You will kiss the ring. Or you will be smeared as a heretic and people will try to burn you to the ground, figuratively if not literally.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 08, 2022, 11:27:33 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2022, 11:11:22 AM
Here's what I would say if I ran my own game company: "My personal politics are none of your business. I just want your money and recognition of the effort I put into my product."
Sadly, for many people that would no longer be enough. Even I have reluctantly started considering the wisdom of not giving money to people who hate my beliefs and will actively work against them. (Indeed, one of the reasons fans react so badly to finding out their favourite artists have politics different from their own is precisely this feeling of betrayal, of having had time and money "stolen" to promote something the fan hates.)
"Are the values we hold in common important enough to outweigh our conflict over the values we don't?" is a question that's going to trouble any personal, political or business relationship once it gets significant enough.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 08, 2022, 11:31:14 AM
It's the eternal question of 'can you separate the art from the artist?'.
In the past, you kind of could, because most artists weren't strident about it. They didn't feel the need to act out performative virtue signaling for this or that sociopolitical agenda.
Nowadays, though, you will genuflect. You will kiss the ring. Or you will be smeared as a heretic and people will try to burn you to the ground, figuratively if not literally.
Yeah, it's this whole damned if you do damned if you don't thing. If you don't hold your audience's values, then they'll feel betrayed if they ever learn your personal politics. If you don't announce your politics and virtue signal, then people will burn you at the stake. It's impossible to win.
So let me revise my prior statement: "My personal politics are none of your damn business, but if you must know then I think both sides are equally stupid/evil/istaphobes. Happy? Now shut up and give me your money or fuck off."
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 08, 2022, 11:31:14 AM
It's the eternal question of 'can you separate the art from the artist?'.
In the past, you kind of could, because most artists weren't strident about it. They didn't feel the need to act out performative virtue signaling for this or that sociopolitical agenda.
...
In the past they just used to STFU and not talk about their personal politics.
They understood that half of their audience
(pick a half) paid their bills too.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:28:28 AM
...
The entire company is in lockstep. I wonder if this means people have to profess SJG's ideology before they can be employed. That's discrimination. If not, what do they do to the employees that SJG alienates?
In general - RPG companies only employ people that they or their employees know. The whole "rpg industry" is very incestuous. Outside of freelances that keep their mouths shut, it is the same everywhere.
WotC D&D only hires fellow travelers. Same with Baizuo etc.. It's just not that hard to sound someone out when you talk to them in casual conversation.
It's a kind of shadow discrimination that's very hard to actually prove... And all the major players do it.
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 08, 2022, 11:09:46 AM
Quote from: Dropbear on July 08, 2022, 10:22:33 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 08, 2022, 09:54:16 AM
Quote from: S'mon on July 08, 2022, 06:21:58 AM
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
Today's announcement from Steve Jackson Games is full-steam partisan/activist/pro-abortion. I don't care what side you fall on: pro-abortion, or the side that's on the right side of history. Right to privacy? Keep your extremism private.
Official word from Steve Jackson, alienating the majority of people.
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/July_08_2022/Roe_v_Wade
They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children. (Link to the "charity" http://www.lilithfund.org )
Lilith fund?! ??? ROTFLMAO! They should have just called it the Moloch fund.
Seriously, when I saw that I was like "Jesus, fuck! Could you be a little less on the nose about it than naming your fund after a demon who steals and kills babies?"
And I don't even care about the unborn, but I'm also not on the other extreme lunatic "let's just murder actual babies while we're at it" side of this issue. Like WTF?
And when you go to their website, their About section is like 80% about affirming intersectional nonsense rather than actually saying what they do for women, cuz they can't, since that would go against their "gender-inclusive" stance.
Just curious. Where's this About section? Not seeing it...
It's at the Lilith Fund (https://www.lilithfund.org/#) website, specific page here: https://www.lilithfund.org/portfolio/about/
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 10:38:15 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 08, 2022, 10:19:27 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 09:40:02 AM
So would your church consider NOT killing a gay person to be an intrinsically evil act? After all, 'duh buybull sez...! '
What does this have to do with Steve Jackson Games deciding to Woke virtue signal in a way that alienates at least half his potential customers?
The issue of abortion is divisive political one that one side considers government sanctioned murder of innocent children. Game companies need have nothing to do with the issue and yet Steve Jackson has chosen to insert his company into the issue in way that specifically says "by buying my products you will be supporting something half the country finds morally objectionable."
That is textbook Red company behavior and so is absolutely relevant to the discussions in this forum on how politics relates to gaming (which is what Reckall is getting wrong... it's not a no politics forum, it's no politics unrelated to gaming... Steve Jackson's decision to go political on the issue makes it a valid topic in discussing why it's a boneheaded move to alienate a huge swath of people who think abortion is murder and will no longer be buying his products as a result).
But in typical idiot Lefty fashion, you can't win that argument so you try to drag people off the topic into general politics hoping that Pundit will react as he should to off topic posts and then stand there feigning innocence. My only comment to your attempted derail is that I believe the following in total; https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM (https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM)
I also do not consider it an accident that your avatar is a Big Purple Troll.
. Your kind want to force people to have babies against their will, and then force your fucking religion on people on every other issue eventually.
Well, we're not going to let you.
If you want to keep on trying, you'd better be ready for a fucking war, a real war.
None of that addresses what Chris actually said or has anything to do with this discussion, but it's just idle speculation on your part and kinda reaching.
Also, might wanna pipe down on openly declaring war on the side who has all the guns and knows how to use them, and acting like you already won this conflict when you probably won't if it comes to that.
Thanks! I think for some reason I was under the impression the original post was detailing the About section of SJG. I suppose I should be getting more caffeine into my system.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 08, 2022, 11:31:14 AM
It's the eternal question of 'can you separate the art from the artist?'.
In the past, you kind of could, because most artists weren't strident about it. They didn't feel the need to act out performative virtue signaling for this or that sociopolitical agenda.
Nowadays, though, you will genuflect. You will kiss the ring. Or you will be smeared as a heretic and people will try to burn you to the ground, figuratively if not literally.
Separating the art from the artist is a lot easier when the artist is dead, dearie. The longer he's been dead the easier it gets.
Classic Greek artists were pretty sexist, no one gets that upset anymore, except for the extreme woke as they've been dead for millennia.
Shakespeare? Sexist and racist, but dead for centuries. More people find him objectionable.
Lovecraft? Dead a lifetime, so lots if people bitch about bis racism. But most let it go.
M. A. R. Barker? Dead for a decade. Mention him on tbp without spitting and your permabanned.
I was never into tekumel, and tho I acknowledge his contributions to gaming , having tekumel out in 75, I could not buy or read his work after learning of 'Serpent's walk'.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 08, 2022, 11:27:33 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2022, 11:11:22 AM
Here's what I would say if I ran my own game company: "My personal politics are none of your business. I just want your money and recognition of the effort I put into my product."
Sadly, for many people that would no longer be enough. Even I have reluctantly started considering the wisdom of not giving money to people who hate my beliefs and will actively work against them. (Indeed, one of the reasons fans react so badly to finding out their favourite artists have politics different from their own is precisely this feeling of betrayal, of having had time and money "stolen" to promote something the fan hates.)
"Are the values we hold in common important enough to outweigh our conflict over the values we don't?" is a question that's going to trouble any personal, political or business relationship once it gets significant enough.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 08, 2022, 11:31:14 AM
It's the eternal question of 'can you separate the art from the artist?'.
In the past, you kind of could, because most artists weren't strident about it. They didn't feel the need to act out performative virtue signaling for this or that sociopolitical agenda.
Nowadays, though, you will genuflect. You will kiss the ring. Or you will be smeared as a heretic and people will try to burn you to the ground, figuratively if not literally.
I don't even care if artists are vocal about their politics or religious beliefs—specially if we're talking actual artists and not RPG designers, since there's a certain degree of expectation that art may have a message and that that message might be religious or political. But even with RPG designers I don't really care if they want to be vocal about certain stuff. I wouldn't even care on this instance, since I'm pro-choice and barely give a shit about the unborn, unless they're far enough in the pregnancy to practically be a full blown baby. So I should ostensibly be on their side of the issue, if they weren't outright pro-abortion "my body my choice, right up to the moment of conception (and anything less amounts to a theofascist takeover out to trample minority rights)" lunatics that are full of shit.
My issue is all the brown nosing going on and outright lies and false framing that are being used in order to push a political agenda, where anyone who doesn't agree or immediately fall in line with the party's decrees without question is branded a heretic and willful bad actor consciously out to hurt "diverse" people from marginalized communities of many genders and colours, thereby necessitating and justifying their ostracization and retaliatory action taken out against them. This stuff is beyond merely expressing a political opinion. SJ's own statement not only voices support for abortion, but paints a false narrative that frames the opposition as gun toting "theofascists" out to enact sweeping legal changes that will trample on the rights of minorities everywhere, when all that the Supreme Court actually did was take down an authoritarian decree that actually trampled on state rights, even if you don't like what those states wanted to do with those rights—which regardless of what you may think about this issue do not amount to enacting a theofascist state where minorities everywhere have to live in constant fear and be forced to pay tithes and all the superfluous extra shit that SJ added to his statement. And it certainly doesn't imply that the Supreme Court is overreaching and engaging on a "power grab', when they are literally relinquishing power to the states, you fucking retards!
If you're gonna argue against shit or in favor of shit at least have the decency to talk about shit that is actually going on rather than framing your own version of reality and acting like your position is the only decent or possibly correct position, and anyone who doesn't agree can only possibly be an evil dictator and nothing else, when your position isn't even based on reality.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 08, 2022, 11:31:14 AM
It's the eternal question of 'can you separate the art from the artist?'.
Well, yes. Just consider that we know nothing about the guy who designed the Sphinx or the Parthenon. How can we admire these works when we have no clue if he beat his wife or if he was a first wave feminist?
We do know that many Renaissance artists were very bad people. Leonardo da Vinci was very possibly a closeted homosexual and a borderline pedophile (according to Freud, he never "practiced" - but Freud himself was the first that said how you can't professionally judge a person that you never met). Bad judgements can be given to a lot of musicians, both classical and modern.
Thomas Malory was accused of extortion, kidnapping, rape and "violent robberies rising over 100". This is not hearsay: there are documents from the era about these accusations (along with prison time that he cut short by possibly bribing his guardians). So, should we ditch "Le Morte d'Arthur"?
The idea that the artist cannot be separated from the art started, IMHO, with Harry Potter. We implicitly accept the past because... dunno, it is past. Either that, or no more trips to see the Sphinx until we know more.
Well, at least he made it easy for me with regard to still supporting his products
It's one thing for an artist to have different politics. I don't agree with everyone, but that's okay. We live in a society.
If you can't disagree with someone in this world, then you're probably socipathic.
It is another thing when sociopathic people demand that you must agree (or else you're a Nazi).
To me, that is also sociopathic behavior... the same inability to disagree in a civilized way.
That's the problem. People who are beyond reason.
I can support the art as separate from the artist until the artist rubs my nose in it. Then I can't anymore. Because when I try, instead of enjoying the art, all I can think about is, "This was made by that SOB that rubbed my nose in it."
Separating the art from the artist is a two way street, and I don't see much work being done going down the opposite lane.
I can't in good conscience support SJG even if I do support abortion rights for women and girls, because the progressives believe that "women and girls" is just an idea in men's heads so it's okay to let dangerous men enter spaces previously reserved for women and girls.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on July 08, 2022, 01:46:25 PM
I can support the art as separate from the artist until the artist rubs my nose in it. Then I can't anymore. Because when I try, instead of enjoying the art, all I can think about is, "This was made by that SOB that rubbed my nose in it."
Separating the art from the artist is a two way street, and I don't see much work being done going down the opposite lane.
^ This right here. Well said!
Forgiving an artist for believing things I think reprehensible is one thing, as is separating my opinion of his art from my opinion of what I know of him personally. Wagner was a terrible anti-Semite but I see nothing wrong with loving the music of the Ring Cycle, which I do.
Knowing that the artist (or the holder of the artist's copyright, to broaden conditions) is going to take the money I give him and put it into reprehensible causes here, now, today is a much harder bar to overcome. SJG might still have been able to get my money if all Jackson had done was loudly tout his personal opinions. When he openly admitted part of his earnings would go directly to supporting evil? Sorry, at that point he made me (to use Catholic terminology) formally cooperative with that evil if I paid him money for his products while knowing that.
It can also be affected by knowing the artist's conscious intentions of the art. I can enjoy Tekumel because, loathsome as M.A.R. Barker's politics were, Tekumel specifically did nothing to advance them. I can't support Philip Pullman because, despite actually finding his anti-Christian politics more understandable in their own right, I know from his own explicit admission that "His Dark Materials" was consciously written to be the "anti-Narnia" and to try countering Christian ideals, images and themes in fantasy. That puts Pullman out of the "live and let live" box and squarely into the "I will not pay for the rope the seller wants to use to hang me" box.
Hey, Reckall. I'm all for playing by the rules, but why admonish me but let our resident purple troll "Battlemaster", whose ramblings make me look benign, get three passes?
It's no different than celebrities with political views. Are the uninformed, isolated, and elitist dim-bulbs who make up the Hollywood A-list where I want to go for cogent and reasoned opinions and analysis of topical social issues?
Hell no. Just because you have a platform to express your views doesn't make your vapid and uninformed utterances worth sharing. Shut the fuck up, or we'll rescind that platform.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 07:35:03 AM
Anyway, abortion is always kinda funny to me. Christians are against it despite their god being a big believer in killing babies before and after birth. If they'd learn to read and read their Bible's instead of waving them they'd know that. But in the bible killing babies isn't the womans choice and she usually dies too. Apparently they only object to it when it's the woman's choice and she survives.
Old Testament Jehovah & Jesus Christ are pretty different.
I have come to the conclusion on how to separate 'art from artist' and where I draw the line (myself anyway).
The artist can believe whatever stupid shit they want. The question is:
A: Do they HATE me? If not personally, then as part of a collective.
B: Do they want me to know they HATE me? If they keep their yap shut, them hating me might be a thing I would only find out from leaked conversations. However if they find it important that I know they hate me, then thats a different thing.
If both A & B are answered with 'Yes', then I will not separate the art from the artist.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 03:48:32 PM
Hey, Reckall. I'm all for playing by the rules, but why admonish me but let our resident purple troll "Battlemaster", whose ramblings make me look benign, get three passes?
Because I'm not a teacher who picks the misbehaving kids and slaps them on the hands one by one. I hope we are all mature enough that one reminder is enough.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 07:35:03 AM
Damn! I always had evil Stevie pegged as a solid conservative.
He was always Libertarian. And always had a big hate-on for the religious right.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 08, 2022, 03:43:17 PM
Forgiving an artist for believing things I think reprehensible is one thing, as is separating my opinion of his art from my opinion of what I know of him personally. Wagner was a terrible anti-Semite but I see nothing wrong with loving the music of the Ring Cycle, which I do.
Knowing that the artist (or the holder of the artist's copyright, to broaden conditions) is going to take the money I give him and put it into reprehensible causes here, now, today is a much harder bar to overcome. SJG might still have been able to get my money if all Jackson had done was loudly tout his personal opinions. When he openly admitted part of his earnings would go directly to supporting evil? Sorry, at that point he made me (to use Catholic terminology) formally cooperative with that evil if I paid him money for his products while knowing that.
It can also be affected by knowing the artist's conscious intentions of the art. I can enjoy Tekumel because, loathsome as M.A.R. Barker's politics were, Tekumel specifically did nothing to advance them. I can't support Philip Pullman because, despite actually finding his anti-Christian politics more understandable in their own right, I know from his own explicit admission that "His Dark Materials" was consciously written to be the "anti-Narnia" and to try countering Christian ideals, images and themes in fantasy. That puts Pullman out of the "live and let live" box and squarely into the "I will not pay for the rope the seller wants to use to hang me" box.
Lev Grossman's
The Magicians is much worse. Pullman wanted to oppose Christian themes, but he still had a sense of wonder and imagination. Pullman's worlds are fascinating, wondrous, and terrifying. Grossman just took a big shit on the whole
concept of wonder and imagination. His worlds are bland, boring, and poorly thought out. The whole message is that "magic sucks and won't make you happy." What a joyless idiot.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2022, 03:58:03 PM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 07:35:03 AM
Damn! I always had evil Stevie pegged as a solid conservative.
He was always Libertarian. And always had a big hate-on for the religious right.
It's frustrating because I really cannot blame him for being pissy about the Secret Service raid on SJG. That was so much bullshit I'm surprised he didn't just quit and leave the country. I wouldn't have blamed him.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2022, 04:05:28 PM
Lev Grossman's The Magicians is much worse. Pullman wanted to oppose Christian themes, but he still had a sense of wonder and imagination. Pullman's worlds are fascinating, wondrous, and terrifying. Grossman just took a big shit on the whole concept of wonder and imagination. His worlds are bland, boring, and poorly thought out. The whole message is that "magic sucks and won't make you happy." What a joyless idiot.
Agreed.
The Magicians was the first book I finished in a long time after Pullman or Brown that made me want to hurl it against the wall, and put its author into the "people I will have a very hard time refraining from spitting on if I meet them in person" box.
(Full disclosure requires admitting that a fair bit of my reaction may have come from realizing how much of myself at that age I saw in Quentin Coldwater, both positive and negative. Myself I would have rephrased the theme as "Unlimited wish-fulfillment doesn't facilitate maturity, it retards it," which I think is a point worth making. But Grossman could have made that point with a much less bitter and cynical story.)
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2022, 03:58:03 PM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 07:35:03 AM
Damn! I always had evil Stevie pegged as a solid conservative.
He was always Libertarian. And always had a big hate-on for the religious right.
People forget that the raid on SJG was instrumental to the creation of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, being their first big case. SJG took a hard stance against the government intruding on civil rights.
Here's SJG's summary of the infamous Secret Service raid:
https://www.sjgames.com/SS/
Never really had a clue how they felt about the religious right. It didn't seem to come up.
Quote from: Pat on July 08, 2022, 04:24:44 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2022, 03:58:03 PM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 07:35:03 AM
Damn! I always had evil Stevie pegged as a solid conservative.
He was always Libertarian. And always had a big hate-on for the religious right.
People forget that the raid on SJG was instrumental to the creation of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, being their first big case. SJG took a hard stance against the government intruding on civil rights.
Here's SJG's summary of the infamous Secret Service raid:
https://www.sjgames.com/SS/
Which makes it especially weird that he's taking a stance in favor of unelected big-government federal bureaucrats getting to have control over abortion rules for everyone in the country.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2022, 12:11:00 PMYeah, it's this whole damned if you do damned if you don't thing. If you don't hold your audience's values, then they'll feel betrayed if they ever learn your personal politics. If you don't announce your politics and virtue signal, then people will burn you at the stake. It's impossible to win.
It's a different thing for a corporation. It would be easy to just say "the employees of this corporation have a diverse set of political beliefs, therefore the company does not take support a single political position." The big deal is that SJ is using SJG to push his ideology.
I'd join the boycott but I haven't bought a SJG product since 2003. I don't even know what they sell anymore besides Munchkin (which I don't like at all).
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2022, 04:39:39 PM
Quote from: Pat on July 08, 2022, 04:24:44 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2022, 03:58:03 PM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 07:35:03 AM
Damn! I always had evil Stevie pegged as a solid conservative.
He was always Libertarian. And always had a big hate-on for the religious right.
People forget that the raid on SJG was instrumental to the creation of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, being their first big case. SJG took a hard stance against the government intruding on civil rights.
Here's SJG's summary of the infamous Secret Service raid:
https://www.sjgames.com/SS/
Which makes it especially weird that he's taking a stance in favor of unelected big-government federal bureaucrats getting to have control over abortion rules for everyone in the country.
The almost exclusively consequentialist character of modern Woke leftism seems to have warped the conversation.
Something to remember is that SJG is in Austin which has the capital and big university literally across the street from each other. It is quite different from the rest of Texas for the most part.
Instead of is the art the artist, in this case I think we should ask is the writer of the game material also the publisher?
Steve Jackson owns Steve Jackson Games and may do with it what he sees fit. I do not agree with this decision that he has made to support the Lilith Fund, but he also didn't write my favorite GURPS books - he just published them. I will be thinking twice about purchasing anything else from SJG in the future due to his announcement of where any money spent will be going, but you will pry my copies of GURPS Mars, GURPS: Traveller Far Trader, GURPS: Traveller Starports, and GURPS Space from my cold dead hands.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
Today's announcement from Steve Jackson Games is full-steam partisan/activist/pro-abortion. I don't care what side you fall on: pro-abortion, or the side that's on the right side of history. Right to privacy? Keep your extremism private.
Official word from Steve Jackson, alienating the majority of people.
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/July_08_2022/Roe_v_Wade
They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children. (Link to the "charity" http://www.lilithfund.org )
Just curious, has anyone notified OBS of Steve Jackson Games' unequivocal political stance on the issue, as well as, other political stances mentioned in that rant?
Quote"What's next? A federal binary gender standard...?"
Are you tempting the fates, hoss?
Later in the forum thread, where you're encouraged to discuss the issue, the moderator says to "keep it light". This is about murdering babies in the womb, right? Maybe we can get some of those SNL clowns to juggle fire as the circus music plays?
Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 08, 2022, 02:44:36 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on July 08, 2022, 01:46:25 PM
I can support the art as separate from the artist until the artist rubs my nose in it. Then I can't anymore. Because when I try, instead of enjoying the art, all I can think about is, "This was made by that SOB that rubbed my nose in it."
Separating the art from the artist is a two way street, and I don't see much work being done going down the opposite lane.
^ This right here. Well said!
Yep, this is where I land as well. Well said. I got along better with everyone when I didn't have to know what they thought about everything. I'd be happy to go back to that, as well, but some folks just can't keep their mouth shut.
Also, I'm one of those "big ol' Christians" as well. Been to seminary and was in the pastoral ordination process in case any of you have questions about the Bible, how I reconcile the Old and New Testaments, or if you just want a local punching bag for all the ills that the Church is responsible for.
Between this and Biden's EO, it's shaping up to be a great week for freedom. Love Steve Jackson games, and now, I'll love them even more.
Hey, cheer up, dudes, at least you'll notch a win when Elon buys Twitt... oh.Never mind.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2022, 03:58:03 PM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 07:35:03 AM
Damn! I always had evil Stevie pegged as a solid conservative.
He was always Libertarian. And always had a big hate-on for the religious right.
Definitely NOT libertarian. I thought that he was all this time. Steve Jackson was a law major before joining the game industry. With his poor grasp of the Constitution, I'm glad that he went into gaming.
The forum here covered on his words on abortion and his friend, Lillith, but he really went weird and crazy, like an anti-Trump Alex Jones or something. It was pretty short, but he presented a lot of irrational conspiracy theories. For instance: A national tithe? He heard people in high positions of power talking about it and taking serious measures toward it? Only if you're hearing little voices in your head.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 08, 2022, 04:13:09 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2022, 04:05:28 PM
Lev Grossman's The Magicians is much worse. Pullman wanted to oppose Christian themes, but he still had a sense of wonder and imagination. Pullman's worlds are fascinating, wondrous, and terrifying. Grossman just took a big shit on the whole concept of wonder and imagination. His worlds are bland, boring, and poorly thought out. The whole message is that "magic sucks and won't make you happy." What a joyless idiot.
Agreed. The Magicians was the first book I finished in a long time after Pullman or Brown that made me want to hurl it against the wall, and put its author into the "people I will have a very hard time refraining from spitting on if I meet them in person" box.
(Full disclosure requires admitting that a fair bit of my reaction may have come from realizing how much of myself at that age I saw in Quentin Coldwater, both positive and negative. Myself I would have rephrased the theme as "Unlimited wish-fulfillment doesn't facilitate maturity, it retards it," which I think is a point worth making. But Grossman could have made that point with a much less bitter and cynical story.)
The original
The Neverending Story novel did that. In the 1970s. It answered the question "what if an unstable child actually got god-like power in a fantasy world?" in the second half. Since it was a children's book Michael Ende could only go so far, but it was the first dark isekai before that became a cliché in Japanese web novels. It's still the best dark isekai ever written anyway. Adding gratuitous sex and torture scenes to make it more "adult" would be pointless.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
Today's announcement from Steve Jackson Games is full-steam partisan/activist/pro-abortion. I don't care what side you fall on: pro-abortion, or the side that's on the right side of history. Right to privacy? Keep your extremism private.
Official word from Steve Jackson, alienating the majority of people.
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/July_08_2022/Roe_v_Wade
They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children. (Link to the "charity" http://www.lilithfund.org )
I blame Loren Wiseman. The most woke individual working there before woke was ever a thing. He forever poisoned the GURPS well.
I don't have any inside information regarding SJG's politics, but I recall this thread from three years ago.
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-woke-morons-are-going-after-steve-jackson-games/150/
Back then, SJG was in the spotlight for continuing to work with Frog God Games after FGG principal Bill Webb was accused of harassment at PaizoCon.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2022, 04:39:39 PM
Quote from: Pat on July 08, 2022, 04:24:44 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2022, 03:58:03 PM
He was always Libertarian. And always had a big hate-on for the religious right.
People forget that the raid on SJG was instrumental to the creation of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, being their first big case. SJG took a hard stance against the government intruding on civil rights.
Here's SJG's summary of the infamous Secret Service raid:
https://www.sjgames.com/SS/
Which makes it especially weird that he's taking a stance in favor of unelected big-government federal bureaucrats getting to have control over abortion rules for everyone in the country.
Many libertarians favor individual rights rather than state-level restrictions. Under Roe v. Wade, the government had less control over the individual citizen. Citizens can choose their own individual abortion rules, rather than have it be imposed by the state.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2022, 07:58:22 PMIt's still the best dark isekai ever written anyway.
Out of curiosity, as a total non-fan of anime, what's a "dark isekai"?
Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 08, 2022, 06:15:02 PM
Between this and Biden's EO, it's shaping up to be a great week for freedom. Love Steve Jackson games, and now, I'll love them even more.
Hey, cheer up, dudes, at least you'll notch a win when Elon buys Twitt... oh.Never mind.
It you really want to pretend the SCOTUS rulings on guns and roe v wade were not wins, go right ahead.
Quote from: jhkim on July 08, 2022, 09:04:45 PM
I don't have any inside information regarding SJG's politics, but I recall this thread from three years ago.
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-woke-morons-are-going-after-steve-jackson-games/150/
Back then, SJG was in the spotlight for continuing to work with Frog God Games after FGG principal Bill Webb was accused of harassment at PaizoCon.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2022, 04:39:39 PM
Quote from: Pat on July 08, 2022, 04:24:44 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2022, 03:58:03 PM
He was always Libertarian. And always had a big hate-on for the religious right.
People forget that the raid on SJG was instrumental to the creation of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, being their first big case. SJG took a hard stance against the government intruding on civil rights.
Here's SJG's summary of the infamous Secret Service raid:
https://www.sjgames.com/SS/
Which makes it especially weird that he's taking a stance in favor of unelected big-government federal bureaucrats getting to have control over abortion rules for everyone in the country.
Many libertarians favor individual rights rather than state-level restrictions. Under Roe v. Wade, the government had less control over the individual citizen. Citizens can choose their own individual abortion rules, rather than have it be imposed by the state.
Yep, all the way to 9 months. Let freedom ring!!! But thanks for telling us what some libertarians think.
I recall a pro-gay Pyramid article from the early nineties, I may even have the issue in a box in my basement. SJG was never right wing. They've never been vocal about their politics but I've always thought they were on the left. Maybe it was the androgynous character in the AADA California Road Atlas or some material in GURPS Cyberpunk. There was certainly more than TSR would ever have allowed.
But you know what?
Good on him. He took a stand on an issue he cared about and used the platform he has to do so. It's his platform, it's free speech, and while I don't agree with him I will defend his right to take his stand and lose sales be damned if he so chooses.
I don't think it's virtue signaling, he's sincere, angry, and willing to alienate customers to speak his piece. I respect that.
So angry he is going to stay put in the state with such offensive positions and super low taxes.
He's got the right to live wherever he likes and think and say whatever he likes. But yes, if he wanted to pay more taxes he could spend a fortune and move his operations to California.
Does it belong on a game company's front page? I've read the Daily Illuminator daily for around 20 years. Sometimes he posts about non-gaming stuff. Does Lego belong on a game company's page? I dunno, it's his page, it matters enough to him to put it there. Will it impact his sales? I don't know, we're talking about it here but it's not being discussed on tbp at all, I expect if they did it would quickly devolve into a GURPS hating thread.
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 08, 2022, 09:54:16 AM
Seriously, when I saw that I was like "Jesus, fuck! Could you be a little less on the nose about it than naming your fund after a demon who steals and kills babies?"
I respect Steve's right to support whatever cause he wants, but
holy fucking shit this right here.
NOPE. I'm not even 100% anti-abortion, but there's a line, and this is over it.
Quote from: David Johansen on July 08, 2022, 10:16:48 PM
I don't think it's virtue signaling, he's sincere, angry, and willing to alienate customers to speak his piece. I respect that.
I think it also alienates any employee who thinks independently of the company. His ideology is all screwed up, too. I know he's sincere about it, I not thought for a second he was "virtue signaling" for points, but also, read the piece in the entirety. SJ's post is mired in the SJW worldview. He is threatened, as a "white, privileged" person? Really? Fearful that the radical court may declare there are two genders (binary)... affirming biological science is radical now. "Theo-fascist", talking about the right to life like it is only a religious issue and not a human rights issue shared by non-believers as well. Expressing stereotypical animus for people who hold mainstream religious beliefs. I champion his right to say this. Long live free speech. It lets people show their true colors, and in this case, they are dark.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 11:30:56 PM
I think it also alienates any employee who thinks independently of the company. His ideology is all screwed up, too. I know he's sincere about it, I not thought for a second he was "virtue signaling" for points, but also, read the piece in the entirety. SJ's post is mired in the SJW worldview. He is threatened, as a "white, privileged" person? Really? Fearful that the radical court may declare there are two genders (binary)... affirming biological science is radical now. "Theo-fascist", talking about the right to life like it is only a religious issue and not a human rights issue shared by non-believers as well. Expressing stereotypical animus for people who hold mainstream religious beliefs. I champion his right to say this. Long live free speech. It lets people show their true colors, and in this case, they are dark.
Like many liberals he doesn't really have any clue of what is going on, which makes it worse.
I was never big into GURPS. It's like Savage Worlds, takes too much damned work to flavor it right.
The real question is - who cares? Steven Jackson is a has-been and there are better generic systems out there.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 08, 2022, 06:15:02 PM
Between this and Biden's EO, it's shaping up to be a great week for freedom. Love Steve Jackson games, and now, I'll love them even more.
Hey, cheer up, dudes, at least you'll notch a win when Elon buys Twitt... oh.Never mind.
"To the last, I grapple with thee; From Hell's heart, I stab at thee; For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee." - Herman Melville.
You are one sad fuckin' Captain Ahab.
SJG is simply one more company that I'll boycott from now on. It's good news for my pocketbook, especially in these inflationary times.
Quote from: drayakir on July 09, 2022, 01:06:41 AM
The real question is - who cares? Steven Jackson is a has-been and there are better generic systems out there.
Bingo is your name-o.
Quote from: David Johansen on July 08, 2022, 10:43:15 PM
He's got the right to live wherever he likes and think and say whatever he likes. But yes, if he wanted to pay more taxes he could spend a fortune and move his operations to California.
Does it belong on a game company's front page? I've read the Daily Illuminator daily for around 20 years. Sometimes he posts about non-gaming stuff. Does Lego belong on a game company's page? I dunno, it's his page, it matters enough to him to put it there. Will it impact his sales? I don't know, we're talking about it here but it's not being discussed on tbp at all, I expect if they did it would quickly devolve into a GURPS hating thread.
I agree he has the absolute right to be a hypocrite. I agree he has the right to say whatever he wants. He has the right to believe he is filled with white, straight, male privilege. He can be filled with TDS to the brim if he likes. His talk around abortion though, with zero nuance makes him look like a complete idiot though. People terrified women will no longer be able to terminate 30 week pregnancies anymore in any state are confusing to me. I think they may not understand what that court ruling really did while imagining what they think it did.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 09, 2022, 05:33:46 AM
Does it belong on a game company's front page? I've read the Daily Illuminator daily for around 20 years. Sometimes he posts about non-gaming stuff. Does Lego belong on a game company's page? I dunno, it's his page, it matters enough to him to put it there. Will it impact his sales? I don't know, we're talking about it here but it's not being discussed on tbp at all, I expect if they did it would quickly devolve into a GURPS hating thread.
Here's something else to boggle the mind: SJ, which maybe stands for Social Justice, was a law major before leaving college to join the game industry. His decision spared the world from another lawyer who doesn't understand the U.S. Constitution.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 08, 2022, 09:58:29 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2022, 07:58:22 PMIt's still the best dark isekai ever written anyway.
Out of curiosity, as a total non-fan of anime, what's a "dark isekai"?
Sorry. Stories where the protagonist travels to a magical otherworld and goes on adventures.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 08, 2022, 09:58:29 PM
Out of curiosity, as a total non-fan of anime, what's a "dark isekai"?
Isekai is a genre of manga/anime where modern day people get transported to another world or are trapped in a RPG like video game (to the same effect.). The dark part just means that it is a shitty world full of grief, pain, petty politics, and all the fun stuff we're trying to escape from.
In modern day, Isekai has a very gratuitous self indulgent patter.
The main character is often grossly overpowered, and the focus is usually on them amassing a harem of stupid but thankful bimbo slaves.
Grimgar of Fantasy and Ash is a good example of a dark isekai. People die, there is emotional trauma, and other fun stuff.
Quote from: drayakir on July 09, 2022, 01:06:41 AM
The real question is - who cares? Steven Jackson is a has-been and there are better generic systems out there.
I asked the same question. The only thing I know of that SJG has done in the last decade was a lazy re-release of Ogre.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on July 09, 2022, 11:13:32 AM
Quote from: drayakir on July 09, 2022, 01:06:41 AM
The real question is - who cares? Steven Jackson is a has-been and there are better generic systems out there.
I asked the same question. The only thing I know of that SJG has done in the last decade was a lazy re-release of Ogre.
If with "has been" one means that he is no longer producing stuff then I guess it is normal: he is old and possibly retired. However, I still like GURPS. 3E was tied to some of the warmest memories in my gaming life, and the books - no matter the edition - are a killer reading. I have 4E but I never run it because my group had a very bad experience with another GM and now they just won't hear about it ("He was fixated with realism. We wanted to play The Three Musketeers, he made us roll everytime we took some stairs to see if we tripped"). We play Call of Cthulhu 7E so everybody is happy but to me there is nothing
like GURPS out there.
To be clear, I'm not buying GURPS because, even if one day we'll play it, I already have all I need. But I don't agree with the whole "SJ woke, GURPS bad!!11" witch-hunt. I'm against woke
content in books, nothing else; and let's not forget the whole "Slave Mentality" fiasco on TBP.
Quote from: Reckall on July 09, 2022, 12:03:33 PM
I don't agree with the whole "SJ woke, GURPS bad!!11" witch-hunt. I'm against woke content in books, nothing else....
That's a good point to make. There's a difference between complaining about
what a work, artist or company may be preaching, and complaining
that a work, artist or company is preaching at all.
Full disclosure requires me to admit that in this particular case, for me (being as noted a Catholic), it's far more about the cause SJG is supporting than about it publicly taking a stance at all; I would have stopped buying SJG products even had I only found out about this stance accidentally. But the Woke list in general is targeted as much at the idea that excessive preaching on
any topic tends to ruin entertainment as entertainment, and that people deserve to know which products and companies make this likelier.
Right, but that's your personal preference. Generally speaking, the "market" has moved away from systems as crunchy as GURPS. Clearly they've never seen Hackmaster.
Anyway, I say that he's a has-been in the sense that SJG hasn't really made anything that's wildly popular lately. Most people are playing 5e, some are still holding out to 1E Pathfinder, and then you have everything and everyone else. SJG falls into that last one, except for Munchkin, but that's neither an RPG, nor is it still all that popular (compared to about 15 years ago). Him being woke really doesn't bother me all that much - ultimately it's his company and he can choose to do whatever the fuck, just like I can do whatever the fuck, including not paying him money.
I will say this though, I'd dearly love to find people to play Illuminati on Tabletop Simulator...
There is often an inverse relationship between intelligence and wisdom. I believe the quote attributed to Mark Twain is something like "There are some ideas so stupid that only an intellectual can believe them." For many well-educated people, their education has only furnished them with a ready-made stable of intellectual excuses to ignore reality and substitute their own desires as to what reality should be. The fact that their ideas, rationales, and even epistemologies are counter-intuitive to a normal person is seen as a positive, more evidence that they are smarter and better than you (much like movie critics tend to find absurd reasons to love absolutely awful movies... as a way to demonstrate that they somehow understand film-making better than the average rube). The uneducated generally has to live with the reality of the world taken at face value; the intellectual can find a dozen reasons why what is "obvious" to everyone is really not the case (as long as you twist logic and facts into a jargon-soaked pretzel).
Steve Jackson is obviously a smart dude. He is also a fool. Any objective reading of his statement could only conclude that, taken individually, most of his points sound like the unhinged ranting of an ignorant ideologue:
- From all indications, our other civil rights are in for an equally hard time under the theofascist minority in power (the religious fascists are in power... right)
- and I am threatened by this Supreme Court. (Amy Coney Barrett is lurking in his back yard, I guess)
- A federal binary gender standard that just incidentally wipes out transgender treatment and gay marriage? (what does binary gender have to do with sexual preference?)
- Further criminalization of voter aid when the voters in question are minorities? (Define "voter aid" please. I was unaware that many people needed help bubbling in circles on a ballot. I guess he's referring to the aides who voted for the mentally compromised in Michigan nursing homes? Probably not...)
- A national tithe? (It's called taxes. And the political party that treats taxes like a sacrament is not the same as those supporting the overturning of Roe v. Wade)
- Helping someone affected by one of the mass shootings that the right, and the Court, seem to be fostering out of sheer vicious perversity. (Once you are convinced that your opponents want other people dead... unless of course your actual complaint is that the law won't let you kill full-term babies...)
- Helping someone accused of a "voting offense" just for trying to vote. (Well, did they try to vote multiple times? In multiple places? When they are not US citizens? Most people would support calling those prosecutable "voting offenses"...)
So, sadly, Steve Jackson just ends up as another data point suggesting that intelligence is far more likely to be a hindrance to acquiring wisdom than it is a path to it. I think W. F. Buckley was directly on target when he stated, "I'd rather be governed by the first 2000 names from the Boston telephone book than by the Harvard faculty"...
Abortion was a gun held by the Democrats to the heads of their voters, especially with VP Harris' ridiculous statement about "settled law". The outrage is the strategy with democrats, not a better society. Legislating from the bench is the overreach, which SJG does not understand.
Same applies to Gay Marriage. Codify it if you believe in it. A civil definition of marriage that includes gay marriage. Very simple. Just codify it as actual law. Don't just use it as a campaign prop like other forms of performative socjus. Justice Thomas was right on about that. Believe in it? Then make it law.
Blind allegiance to Democrats over their shotgun marriage to these issues? That's why I have to scoff about SJG. Otherwise, the statement is pretty much dumb and does not move the dial for me regarding their products.(Of course, I'm not a gurps customer, so there's that.)
Exactly. If they really cared about social change then they'd add amendments to the constitution.
But they don't. They just want cushy positions where they can sip chai lattes and do nothing of value.
Quote from: bromides on July 09, 2022, 01:52:54 PM
Abortion was a gun held by the Democrats to the heads of their voters, especially with VP Harris' ridiculous statement about "settled law". The outrage is the strategy with democrats, not a better society. Legislating from the bench is the overreach, which SJG does not understand.
Same applies to Gay Marriage. Codify it if you believe in it. A civil definition of marriage that includes gay marriage. Very simple. Just codify it as actual law. Don't just use it as a campaign prop like other forms of performative socjus. Justice Thomas was right on about that. Believe in it? Then make it law.
Blind allegiance to Democrats over their shotgun marriage to these issues? That's why I have to scoff about SJG. Otherwise, the statement is pretty much dumb and does not move the dial for me regarding their products.(Of course, I'm not a gurps customer, so there's that.)
All understood. My objection isn't with SJWG's absurd positions. It's the part where he said that he'd donate his profits to the Lilith Fund. That's the reason I will no longer buy his products.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 09, 2022, 02:50:51 PM
If they really cared about social change then they'd add amendments to the constitution.
The catch-22 is that because you need a three quarters majority of state governments to ratify a Constitutional amendment, you can only pass one once the social change you wanted has already been broadly accepted in the culture. Hence the things people most want amendments for are precisely the things they are least likely to be able to secure them for.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 09, 2022, 03:38:18 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 09, 2022, 02:50:51 PM
If they really cared about social change then they'd add amendments to the constitution.
The catch-22 is that because you need a three quarters majority of state governments to ratify a Constitutional amendment, you can only pass one once the social change you wanted has already been broadly accepted in the culture. Hence the things people most want amendments for are precisely the things they are least likely to be able to secure them for.
Another reason we need a new civil war to separate America into 2 separate countries.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 09, 2022, 03:38:18 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 09, 2022, 02:50:51 PM
If they really cared about social change then they'd add amendments to the constitution.
The catch-22 is that because you need a three quarters majority of state governments to ratify a Constitutional amendment, you can only pass one once the social change you wanted has already been broadly accepted in the culture. Hence the things people most want amendments for are precisely the things they are least likely to be able to secure them for.
One has to convince society (via state governments) before altering the constitution? How terrible...
So the whole Steve Jackson stuff was just a thinly veiled excuse to try and discuss abortion and religion in this forum I guess? Because the overwhelming majority of posts in this thread have zero to do with RPGs.
Quote from: Mistwell on July 09, 2022, 07:22:06 PM
So the whole Steve Jackson stuff was just a thinly veiled excuse to try and discuss abortion and religion in this forum I guess? Because the overwhelming majority of posts in this thread have zero to do with RPGs.
I'd argue that discussing the use of RPGs by their publisher to advocate for particular social policies, or the news that a given RPG publisher is going to start donating its profits towards such advocacy organizations, is an appropriate topic. There's a reason the list of "Woke" RPGs is in this forum, and not the RPGPundit's Own.
A hypothetical publisher who publicly announced some part of his profits would go to, for example, the Knights of Columbus or the March for Life should be equally open for criticism in this forum from those posters who disliked those organizations, so long as they complained about the forced politicization of the games rather than about the specific causes being supported.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 09, 2022, 08:34:32 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on July 09, 2022, 07:22:06 PM
So the whole Steve Jackson stuff was just a thinly veiled excuse to try and discuss abortion and religion in this forum I guess? Because the overwhelming majority of posts in this thread have zero to do with RPGs.
I'd argue that discussing the use of RPGs by their publisher to advocate for particular social policies, or the news that a given RPG publisher is going to start donating its profits towards such advocacy organizations, is an appropriate topic.
Yes. Absolutely. Just seems like an awful lot of these posts in this thread don't do that. A lot of it seems to be just people voicing their thoughts about abortion and/or religion without even mentioning the publisher and their advocacy, or mentioning him in a single sentence as a pretext to go on a long rant about the general topic of abortion.
Others are clearly discussing Steve Jackson, and I am not bugged by that.
I'm just tired of the "Let's just use every forum here to discuss our politics, even if we just need to find some pretext link to gaming to hide the fact that's what we're here for these days - political discussions, and not gaming discussions."
Well....a long rant about abortion in response to a publisher's long rant about abortion....seems a little like something SJG asked for here. I am missing religious comments though, but not being religious I sort of do not see comments endorsing or insulting religion, nose blind if you will
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 09, 2022, 05:03:23 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 09, 2022, 03:38:18 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 09, 2022, 02:50:51 PM
If they really cared about social change then they'd add amendments to the constitution.
The catch-22 is that because you need a three quarters majority of state governments to ratify a Constitutional amendment, you can only pass one once the social change you wanted has already been broadly accepted in the culture. Hence the things people most want amendments for are precisely the things they are least likely to be able to secure them for.
Another reason we need a new civil war to separate America into 2 separate countries.
Save it for Pundit's Forum, shithead.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 09, 2022, 03:29:12 PM
All understood. My objection isn't with SJWG's absurd positions. It's the part where he said that he'd donate his profits to the Lilith Fund. That's the reason I will no longer buy his products.
I read it as he'd donate the profits of some baby killing T-shirt he's selling to the demon Lilith.
Quote from: Mistwell on July 09, 2022, 07:22:06 PM
So the whole Steve Jackson stuff was just a thinly veiled excuse to try and discuss abortion and religion in this forum I guess? Because the overwhelming majority of posts in this thread have zero to do with RPGs.
This is absolutely not a thread where people should be discussing any political subject, or any other subject, separate to the specifics of the relationship to SJG's recent statements. Doing so can lead to potential banning.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
Today's announcement from Steve Jackson Games is -
Irrelevant to gaming. Like this thread.
Why do game companies and gamers feel they need to express an opinion on this? Not even the GURPS rules are complicated enough to model abortion. It's just irrelevant.
Steve Jackson took a stand, in the hopes that people who don't buy or play games, will buy and play his games. How sad.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 10, 2022, 07:14:33 AM
Steve Jackson took a stand, in the hopes that people who don't buy or play games, will buy and play his games. How sad.
For some of these things I do wonder if we have the order reversed. "Get Woke. Go Broke" is a well-established theme/meme at this point. Anyone in business has to be at least peripherally aware of it.
So, let's say you've made a bunch of boneheaded business decisions (i.e. are going broke; perhaps because you've been riding off a single product line that is starting to turn unprofitable), but want to hide your personal incompetence that would make it difficult to find future employment. Well, one option might be to loudly announce you've gone Woke to one and all so that, when your broke-ness comes due, you can blame the failure on those who refused to buy your product because of their istophobia and hatred. Now it's not your fault and you might find some Lefty who'll hire you despite your company failing.
No idea if it's the case or not for SJG, but someone upthread mentioned "just what has SJG really been doing in terms of business lately?" and it got me thinking. I know it's largely been riding on the back of Munchkin, so if those sales were in decline there could be some panic for attention/sales boosting/setting up a scapegoat going on.
Just a thought.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 10, 2022, 07:57:04 AM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 10, 2022, 07:14:33 AM
Steve Jackson took a stand, in the hopes that people who don't buy or play games, will buy and play his games. How sad.
For some of these things I do wonder if we have the order reversed. "Get Woke. Go Broke" is a well-established theme/meme at this point. Anyone in business has to be at least peripherally aware of it.
So, let's say you've made a bunch of boneheaded business decisions (i.e. are going broke; perhaps because you've been riding off a single product line that is starting to turn unprofitable), but want to hide your personal incompetence that would make it difficult to find future employment. Well, one option might be to loudly announce you've gone Woke to one and all so that, when your broke-ness comes due, you can blame the failure on those who refused to buy your product because of their istophobia and hatred. Now it's not your fault and you might find some Lefty who'll hire you despite your company failing.
No idea if it's the case or not for SJG, but someone upthread mentioned "just what has SJG really been doing in terms of business lately?" and it got me thinking. I know it's largely been riding on the back of Munchkin, so if those sales were in decline there could be some panic for attention/sales boosting/setting up a scapegoat going on.
Just a thought.
Yeah, it does seem like a chicken and egg question sometimes. He wouldn't be the first to lose his old market (due to saturation, disinterest, or other factors) and to decide to try and gain a new one by going woke. It's understandable, if stupid. What's worse are the companies that still have a large market and decide they can expand by pandering to new markets, assuming their old customers will just put up with it. I'm not sure which one SJG is (I think a solid argument can be made for either), but either way he's done unneeded damage to his brand.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 10, 2022, 01:20:05 AM
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
Today's announcement from Steve Jackson Games is -
Irrelevant to gaming. Like this thread.
Why do game companies and gamers feel they need to express an opinion on this? Not even the GURPS rules are complicated enough to model abortion. It's just irrelevant.
No it is not. At least not to gaming, I agree it would be best if the opinions were kept where they belong, away from gaming....but when a game company decides to bring it up on his game company site....he is the one dropping the turd in the punch bowl and making that turd relevant to his occupation/hobby. People making comments on it become relevant etc. Would I prefer he is announcing plans to release a setting book for fantasy or a post apocalypse fallout type world? Yes. But this is where he decides to focus energy and resources from his company, so it IS relevant.
Is anyone talking about this anywhere else? I'm not seeing it discussed over on TBP, but they may be hiding the celebration in Tangency.
(*Adds SJG to the 'Companies Not to Purchase From' list. Somewhat disappointing, but I was never big on GURPS. If Troll Lord Games or PEG did this, that would be a heartbreaker ... )
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 10, 2022, 07:14:33 AM
Steve Jackson took a stand, in the hopes that people who don't buy or play games, will buy and play his games. How sad.
That was the question I asked earlier. Exactly how much business does SJG expect to gain from this, and is it likely to make up for or outweigh what they lose? I'd be genuinely curious to hear people's thoughts on the commercial value of open proselytizing in RPGs.
I encourage folks to both raise awareness of what's going on with SJG and to use their folly to our advantage.
Just made a video on my YouTube channel and blog post about it. If SJG doesn't want pro-life money, Kort'thalis Publishing is more than happy to bridge the gap!
VS
I don't think this is really a woke decision per se... This is about being pro or anti-abortion and not necessarily about the other ridiculous woke-scold nonsense that certain game companies shove down your throat. Of course, I'm pro-abortion but I'm certainly and virulently against uber political correctness.
But what if a game company came out and made a statement saying that they were delighted with the Roe V Wade thing being overturned. Would they not be entitled to make such a statement? Even though I might not agree at all with their sentiments.
I just don't believe you are automatically 'uber woke' if you're against abortion. So as far as I'm concerned I'm happy to still buy their stuff.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2022, 12:49:24 PMI don't think this is really a woke decision per se... (W)hat if a game company came out and made a statement saying that they were delighted with the Roe V Wade thing being overturned. Would they not be entitled to make such a statement?
I'd make the same observation I did before: that the "wokeness" of the action is less in which cause SJG has admitted it's supporting, and more in that it's politicized the act of buying its games at all. A game company coming out as a financial supporter of the NRA, to the extent of calling its customers who favoured gun control "wimps and wusses who c'n keep their goldurn money they don't like it!", would be using Woke tactics as well, if not for typically Woke causes.
One of the hallmarks of Wokeness is the belief that
nothing is "apolitical", and that anyone who seeks to create an arena of life (like what games one plays for leisure entertainment) where politics is unnecessary or irrelevant is really only seeking to create a bubble where
their politics reign unquestioned. Public declarations of position are designed as much to force people out of their supposed "pretenses of neutrality" as they are to strengthen one's own side. The toxicity of this approach to politics is that by definition, it's unfalsifiable: if pleading for a neutral space is never believed to be anything but a stalling or disengagement tactic, then neutral spaces become impossible. (It has been used by other political alignments as well, q.v. Bush's famous, "You are either with us or with the terrorists," but the universality of this stance is, I think, a uniquely Woke thing.)
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 10, 2022, 01:24:49 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2022, 12:49:24 PMI don't think this is really a woke decision per se... (W)hat if a game company came out and made a statement saying that they were delighted with the Roe V Wade thing being overturned. Would they not be entitled to make such a statement?
I'd make the same observation I did before: that the "wokeness" of the action is less in which cause SJG has admitted it's supporting, and more in that it's politicized the act of buying its games at all. A game company coming out as a financial supporter of the NRA, to the extent of calling its customers who favoured gun control "wimps and wusses who c'n keep their goldurn money they don't like it!", would be using Woke tactics as well, if not for typically Woke causes.
One of the hallmarks of Wokeness is the belief that nothing is "apolitical"
I would suggest Venger Satanis'
The Good Syma'arian as an example of what Rob Necronomicon is talking about. While it is a free adventure, it is both a political call out and an advertisement for his game Cha'alt. His blog announcement of the adventure went:
QuoteJust this morning, I released a new PDF scenario for Cha'alt... my eldritch, gonzo, science-fantasy, post-apocalypse campaign setting.
The Good Syma'arian commemorates the striking down of Roe vs Wade. Hey, bad precedent is bad precedent. Not to mention, murder is wrong. While I'm not an absolutist, I lean stronger on the pro-life side.
http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2022/05/anti-abortion-free-chaalt-adventure.html
And in the text of the adventure itself, it has the same political appeal.
QuoteThis scenario was written to commemorate the historic upending of America's "Roe vs Wade" abortion case from 1973... the year D&D was conceived.
As most people are hopefully aware, the overturning of this legal decision by the United States Supreme Court does not mean abortion is
suddenly illegal throughout the country. Rather, limitations and restrictions are kicked-back to the individual states so that the people can
decide for themselves what's to be done about this particularly thorny issue.
The Good Syma'arian touches on various political topics, referencing The Bible, pop-culture, and my own eldritch, gonzo, science-fantasy, post-apocalyptic campaign setting Cha'alt... get the entire trilogy!
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sGj55NiTGJ-WFHlr-VBou-B0rqAlEAt1/view
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 10, 2022, 07:14:33 AM
Steve Jackson took a stand, in the hopes that people who don't buy or play games, will buy and play his games. How sad.
Could he have possibly taken a stand based on beliefs and principles,or are you incapable of believing that anyone who nay have left leanings could have princples?
Quote from: jhkim on July 10, 2022, 02:09:42 PM
I would suggest Venger Satanis' The Good Syma'arian as an example of what Rob Necronomicon is talking about.
Fair point. But I think it is also worth asking if this kind of explicitly politicized product design and advertising would have been a viable tactic in an environment not already polarized by those advocating the opposite agenda. "Non-Woke" didn't become a selling point for games until enough people got fed up with overt Wokeness in gaming.
Quote from: jhkim on July 10, 2022, 02:09:42 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 10, 2022, 01:24:49 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2022, 12:49:24 PMI don't think this is really a woke decision per se... (W)hat if a game company came out and made a statement saying that they were delighted with the Roe V Wade thing being overturned. Would they not be entitled to make such a statement?
I'd make the same observation I did before: that the "wokeness" of the action is less in which cause SJG has admitted it's supporting, and more in that it's politicized the act of buying its games at all. A game company coming out as a financial supporter of the NRA, to the extent of calling its customers who favoured gun control "wimps and wusses who c'n keep their goldurn money they don't like it!", would be using Woke tactics as well, if not for typically Woke causes.
One of the hallmarks of Wokeness is the belief that nothing is "apolitical"
I would suggest Venger Satanis' The Good Syma'arian as an example of what Rob Necronomicon is talking about. While it is a free adventure, it is both a political call out and an advertisement for his game Cha'alt. His blog announcement of the adventure went:
This is it... I mean, I've been defending Venger's products online even if I don't agree with him politically per se. But I'll still buy his stuff and say he's got every right to release what he wants. This is why I hate the likes of DT because they are pro-censorship (when it suits them) and pro-certain politics. And I say that as a lefty...
Quote from: Dropbear on July 08, 2022, 10:49:59 AM
Quote from: Reckall on July 08, 2022, 10:38:39 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 08, 2022, 10:19:27 AM
But in typical idiot Lefty fashion, you can't win that argument so you try to drag people off the topic into general politics
You are so blinded by your fanaticism that you didn't even considered that I could agree with you. This is not the point. The point is:
This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion
It is the first thing you read on this forum. Pundit's forum, Pundit's rules.
BTW, I wonder why no one even bothered to point out how SJ, in that very post, attacks the Right too:
Helping someone affected by one of the mass shootings that the right, and the Court, seem to be fostering out of sheer vicious perversity.
I noticed that as well. He is clearly an Austin Texan, lol. That is probably the only city in Texas that aligns with this statement accusing the right of vicious perversity because gun laws are not much stricter than they are.
The rule is about devolving an EXISTING thread into an unrelated political discussion. This thread started out as a political discussion. There is nothing to devolve.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:53:03 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2022, 03:58:03 PM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 07:35:03 AM
Damn! I always had evil Stevie pegged as a solid conservative.
He was always Libertarian. And always had a big hate-on for the religious right.
Definitely NOT libertarian. I thought that he was all this time. Steve Jackson was a law major before joining the game industry. With his poor grasp of the Constitution, I'm glad that he went into gaming.
The forum here covered on his words on abortion and his friend, Lillith, but he really went weird and crazy, like an anti-Trump Alex Jones or something. It was pretty short, but he presented a lot of irrational conspiracy theories. For instance: A national tithe? He heard people in high positions of power talking about it and taking serious measures toward it? Only if you're hearing little voices in your head.
What do you mean by Law major? Did he go to Law School or did he just select a vague "Pre-Law" major while an undergrad?
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2022, 12:49:24 PM
I don't think this is really a woke decision per se... This is about being pro or anti-abortion and not necessarily about the other ridiculous woke-scold nonsense that certain game companies shove down your throat. Of course, I'm pro-abortion but I'm certainly and virulently against uber political correctness.
But what if a game company came out and made a statement saying that they were delighted with the Roe V Wade thing being overturned. Would they not be entitled to make such a statement? Even though I might not agree at all with their sentiments.
I just don't believe you are automatically 'uber woke' if you're against abortion. So as far as I'm concerned I'm happy to still buy their stuff.
Agree and agree. I think "Woke" is used for ones with the SJW ideology, regardless of if they're doing it to protect their corporation from government giving them a bad social score. I don't question the sincerity of SJG's SJW stance, because it was so unhinged, rather than professional.
I also support free speech. Unlike SJG, I believe in the Constitution, and will defend his right to free speech, if people attack his right to speak. I also don't care if Steve Jackson is pro-life or pro-abortion. I don't believe in boycotts. But I do believe in things like the woke list, that helps inform consumers, and allow them make a personal decision to not support a company if profits from their purchases are going to something they believe is intrinsically evil.
@ member VengerSatanis, what it the url link to your video? I'd like to look at it.
Quote from: Timothe on July 10, 2022, 03:31:17 PM
What do you mean by Law major? Did he go to Law School or did he just select a vague "Pre-Law" major while an undergrad?
If I remember right, he was a law student in a Texas college or university, when he answered a Help Wanted ad for a proofreader or line editor from Metagaming Concepts. It must have helped him when he won the rights to Ogre when he left that company, and defending himself when the SS raided his place, and when he secured the rights to The Fantasy Trip RPG a few years ago.
It would have been nice if he'd mentioned this before I spent a good chunk of my gaming budget on GURPS stuff at Bundle of Holding. I'm grown-up enough to handle people having different opinions from mine. Telling me you're going to take my money and use it specifically for something I find morally abhorrent is beyond a difference of opinion.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 10:38:15 AM
Well, we're not going to let you.
If you want to keep on trying, you'd better be ready for a fucking war, a real war.
Ten internet bucks on the legion never showing up.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 10, 2022, 03:50:36 PM
I also support free speech. Unlike SJG, I believe in the Constitution, and will defend his right to free speech, if people attack his right to speak. I also don't care if Steve Jackson is pro-life or pro-abortion. I don't believe in boycotts. But I do believe in things like the woke list, that helps inform consumers, and allow them make a personal
I also support a woke scold list. I don't want to support creators who try and dictate what I can or can't play.
Quote from: S'mon on July 08, 2022, 03:50:12 PM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 07:35:03 AM
Anyway, abortion is always kinda funny to me. Christians are against it despite their god being a big believer in killing babies before and after birth. If they'd learn to read and read their Bible's instead of waving them they'd know that. But in the bible killing babies isn't the womans choice and she usually dies too. Apparently they only object to it when it's the woman's choice and she survives.
Old Testament Jehovah & Jesus Christ are pretty different.
Well they're both fictional if that helps.
Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 10, 2022, 06:58:35 PM
Quote from: S'mon on July 08, 2022, 03:50:12 PM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 07:35:03 AM
Anyway, abortion is always kinda funny to me. Christians are against it despite their god being a big believer in killing babies before and after birth. If they'd learn to read and read their Bible's instead of waving them they'd know that. But in the bible killing babies isn't the womans choice and she usually dies too. Apparently they only object to it when it's the woman's choice and she survives.
Old Testament Jehovah & Jesus Christ are pretty different.
Well they're both fictional if that helps.
Absolutely...
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 10, 2022, 01:24:49 PM
One of the hallmarks of Wokeness is the belief that nothing is "apolitical", and that anyone who seeks to create an arena of life (like what games one plays for leisure entertainment) where politics is unnecessary or irrelevant is really only seeking to create a bubble where their politics reign unquestioned. Public declarations of position are designed as much to force people out of their supposed "pretenses of neutrality" as they are to strengthen one's own side. The toxicity of this approach to politics is that by definition, it's unfalsifiable: if pleading for a neutral space is never believed to be anything but a stalling or disengagement tactic, then neutral spaces become impossible. (It has been used by other political alignments as well, q.v. Bush's famous, "You are either with us or with the terrorists," but the universality of this stance is, I think, a uniquely Woke thing.)
Uh, yeah. The right politicized data on smoking causing cancer because big tobacco wanted it discredited. The right politicized data on human influenced climate change because big oil wanted it discredited, it politicized 911 because big oil wanted to steal Iraq's oil and defense contractors wanted a nice profitable war. The right politicized healthcare reform because big medicorps wanted to keep their profits high. The right politicized covid to divide America. The right has politicized American history to create strife and division .
I think Steve Jackson is sadly a broken man, he lost his long term partner a year or two ago (not to Covid) and then he and the company jumped onboard the extreme Covid fear train, masking up in zoom calls and so on. Nearing 70 his hormones are probably shot, so he's basically just a puddle of irritability and suggestibility.
That's my read, sad way for a man and a company to go. They'll probably be out of business in a couple of years, at least I hope so, if only to serve as an object lesson that firing half your customer base has consequences.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 10, 2022, 07:08:28 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 10, 2022, 01:24:49 PM
One of the hallmarks of Wokeness is the belief that nothing is "apolitical", and that anyone who seeks to create an arena of life (like what games one plays for leisure entertainment) where politics is unnecessary or irrelevant is really only seeking to create a bubble where their politics reign unquestioned. Public declarations of position are designed as much to force people out of their supposed "pretenses of neutrality" as they are to strengthen one's own side. The toxicity of this approach to politics is that by definition, it's unfalsifiable: if pleading for a neutral space is never believed to be anything but a stalling or disengagement tactic, then neutral spaces become impossible. (It has been used by other political alignments as well, q.v. Bush's famous, "You are either with us or with the terrorists," but the universality of this stance is, I think, a uniquely Woke thing.)
Uh, yeah. The right politicized data on smoking causing cancer because big tobacco wanted it discredited. The right politicized data on human influenced climate change because big oil wanted it discredited, it politicized 911 because big oil wanted to steal Iraq's oil and defense contractors wanted a nice profitable war. The right politicized healthcare reform because big medicorps wanted to keep their profits high. The right politicized covid to divide America. The right has politicized American history to create strife and division .
Hark! The Leftist Wanker sings!
Repeating all the same old things!
Fa La La La La, La La La La!
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2022, 12:49:24 PM
I don't think this is really a woke decision per se... This is about being pro or anti-abortion and not necessarily about the other ridiculous woke-scold nonsense that certain game companies shove down your throat. Of course, I'm pro-abortion but I'm certainly and virulently against uber political correctness.
But what if a game company came out and made a statement saying that they were delighted with the Roe V Wade thing being overturned. Would they not be entitled to make such a statement? Even though I might not agree at all with their sentiments.
I just don't believe you are automatically 'uber woke' if you're against abortion. So as far as I'm concerned I'm happy to still buy their stuff.
Did you read the statement? The guy went on about being a privileged straight white male, then started veering off into wild speculation about a bunch of other unrelated stuff, like transgender people losing access to treatment, gay marriage being repealed, etc. It goes well beyond simple support for abortion.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 10, 2022, 07:08:28 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 10, 2022, 01:24:49 PM
One of the hallmarks of Wokeness is the belief that nothing is "apolitical", and that anyone who seeks to create an arena of life (like what games one plays for leisure entertainment) where politics is unnecessary or irrelevant is really only seeking to create a bubble where their politics reign unquestioned. Public declarations of position are designed as much to force people out of their supposed "pretenses of neutrality" as they are to strengthen one's own side. The toxicity of this approach to politics is that by definition, it's unfalsifiable: if pleading for a neutral space is never believed to be anything but a stalling or disengagement tactic, then neutral spaces become impossible. (It has been used by other political alignments as well, q.v. Bush's famous, "You are either with us or with the terrorists," but the universality of this stance is, I think, a uniquely Woke thing.)
Uh, yeah. The right politicized data on smoking causing cancer because big tobacco wanted it discredited. The right politicized data on human influenced climate change because big oil wanted it discredited, it politicized 911 because big oil wanted to steal Iraq's oil and defense contractors wanted a nice profitable war. The right politicized healthcare reform because big medicorps wanted to keep their profits high. The right politicized covid to divide America. The right has politicized American history to create strife and division .
Are you capable of addressing the stuff that people actually said without brining up a bunch of completely unrelated whataboutisms about stuff that the "right" is supposedly solely responsible for that isn't even accurate? The "right" didn't politicize data about smoking. Not every stunt that big corporations pull to get away with nefarious shit immediately falls in the lap of the "right", just because they're corporations and the right is supposedly pro-corporations (cuz the "left" apparently isn't these days). The "left" politicized climate change too. And healthcare. And covid. And NONE of this is even relevant to the discussion or even refutes anything that Stephen Tannhauser said. It's just partisan diarrhea.
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 10, 2022, 08:43:44 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2022, 12:49:24 PM
I don't think this is really a woke decision per se... This is about being pro or anti-abortion and not necessarily about the other ridiculous woke-scold nonsense that certain game companies shove down your throat. Of course, I'm pro-abortion but I'm certainly and virulently against uber political correctness.
But what if a game company came out and made a statement saying that they were delighted with the Roe V Wade thing being overturned. Would they not be entitled to make such a statement? Even though I might not agree at all with their sentiments.
I just don't believe you are automatically 'uber woke' if you're against abortion. So as far as I'm concerned I'm happy to still buy their stuff.
Did you read the statement? The guy went on about being a privileged straight white male, then started veering off into wild speculation about a bunch of other unrelated stuff, like transgender people losing access to treatment, gay marriage being repealed, etc. It goes well beyond simple support for abortion.
[
Yes, once again a 'wokist' slams the right by using WORDS THAT CAME OUT OF RIGHT WING LEADERS MOUTHS to accuse the right of wanting to do extremist things.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/clarence-thomas-supreme-court-reconsider-contraception-gay-marriage-rulings
God is there no limit to their vileness?!?!
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 10, 2022, 09:15:35 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 10, 2022, 08:43:44 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2022, 12:49:24 PM
I don't think this is really a woke decision per se... This is about being pro or anti-abortion and not necessarily about the other ridiculous woke-scold nonsense that certain game companies shove down your throat. Of course, I'm pro-abortion but I'm certainly and virulently against uber political correctness.
But what if a game company came out and made a statement saying that they were delighted with the Roe V Wade thing being overturned. Would they not be entitled to make such a statement? Even though I might not agree at all with their sentiments.
I just don't believe you are automatically 'uber woke' if you're against abortion. So as far as I'm concerned I'm happy to still buy their stuff.
Did you read the statement? The guy went on about being a privileged straight white male, then started veering off into wild speculation about a bunch of other unrelated stuff, like transgender people losing access to treatment, gay marriage being repealed, etc. It goes well beyond simple support for abortion.
[
Yes, once again a 'wokist' slams the right by using WORDS THAT CAME OUT OF RIGHT WING LEADERS MOUTHS to accuse the right of wanting to do extremist things.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/clarence-thomas-supreme-court-reconsider-contraception-gay-marriage-rulings
God is there no limit to their vileness?!?!
There is no limit.
Its vileness all the way down until you are donating to Lilith to kill babies.
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 10, 2022, 08:43:44 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2022, 12:49:24 PM
I don't think this is really a woke decision per se... This is about being pro or anti-abortion and not necessarily about the other ridiculous woke-scold nonsense that certain game companies shove down your throat. Of course, I'm pro-abortion but I'm certainly and virulently against uber political correctness.
But what if a game company came out and made a statement saying that they were delighted with the Roe V Wade thing being overturned. Would they not be entitled to make such a statement? Even though I might not agree at all with their sentiments.
I just don't believe you are automatically 'uber woke' if you're against abortion. So as far as I'm concerned I'm happy to still buy their stuff.
Did you read the statement? The guy went on about being a privileged straight white male, then started veering off into wild speculation about a bunch of other unrelated stuff, like transgender people losing access to treatment, gay marriage being repealed, etc. It goes well beyond simple support for abortion.
Yes, I read the entire thing. I'm not saying that SJ is not woke, or not in lockstep with the extreme-left ideology. I just say that I believe he sincerely believes all this nonsense, and not doing it to virtue signal so government leaves him alone.
EDIT: I thought you were addressing me.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 10, 2022, 07:08:28 PMThe right politicized data on smoking ... human influenced climate change ... 9/11 ... healthcare reform ... covid ... American history ....
I'm not sure you and I are using the word "politicized" in the same way. To note that political disagreement over a topic exists, or to be deliberately selective in how one interprets data to support a particular policy, is not to "politicize" it.
"Politicizing" as I mean the word is to introduce political content, purpose, or dimensions into an environment or activity where it isn't inherently necessary, in this case gaming. The "Sad Puppies" campaigns, prior to the pandemic, were making the same case about the Hugo Awards for science fiction: the Puppies pointed out that for years an effective though unstated prerequisite for winning was to write works that subscribed to particular social and political agendas, and that the Hugos had been effectively politicized. In return, they were constantly accused of using their stated desire to get politics out of the Hugos as merely a disguise for the insertion of their own. (As you yourself note to be a problem, the people dismissing the Puppies' arguments deliberately refused to consider the possibility that the Puppies were simply honestly acting on impartial ideals, and attributed their criticisms solely to a desire to win awards for the kind of books that
they liked.)
I make no secret of my own stance on the particular topic SJG has chosen to support. That he has chosen to support it is his prerogative. That he has essentially forced those of his audience who don't agree with him to choose between enjoying his products and staying true to their own values -- thus politicizing the act of purchasing his entertainment products -- is the stance I wish he hadn't taken, and that I don't think he had to take.
Quote from: S'mon on July 08, 2022, 06:21:58 AM
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
Today's announcement from Steve Jackson Games is full-steam partisan/activist/pro-abortion. I don't care what side you fall on: pro-abortion, or the side that's on the right side of history. Right to privacy? Keep your extremism private.
Official word from Steve Jackson, alienating the majority of people.
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/July_08_2022/Roe_v_Wade
They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children. (Link to the "charity" http://www.lilithfund.org )
Lilith fund?! ??? ROTFLMAO! They should have just called it the Moloch fund.
Exactly. I don't see this as merely a "woke" issue, but even more as a satanic issue.....and when I say this, I am not engaging in narrative hyperbole.
Yes, Steve Jackson used to be known for creating innovative rpgs. But now? That's debatable.
I will try to ignore the unbelievably lame Luciferian edgelord Illuminati symbol on his website (for now), and instead mention that this tabletop rpg publisher is being incredibly self-righteous (on his tabletop gaming website) about defending the evils of the abortion industry.
The abortion industry has always been primarily about being a satanic ritual, involving child sacrifice.
Issues of "women's rights" were always a smokescreen, which is obvious....once we see current demands for people (including women) to submit to dangerous medical experimentation and genetic modification, and surrender all bodily autonomy to vaccine manufacturers, who have no legal liability whatsoever.....and do so, under the most flimsy of excuses.
Ordinarily, I would just dismiss Jackson as some selfish, Godless Boomer asshole who just happens to be ignorant of what abortion really is and what it represents.
But then he self-righteously virtue signals about donating to a pro-abortion fund named after a DEMON, that is known primarily for its MURDER OF CHILDREN?
No. Seriously, no.
That is waaaaaay too creepy, evil, and weird for me to tolerate or ignore. There is simply no way that Jackson is unaware of the religious significance of the name of that fund, or the religious and moral significance of the abortion industry itself. NO. FUCKING. WAY. So I will be "noping" the fuck out, and will be boycotting this company. Fuck Steve Jackson, fuck his company, fuck his games, and fuck his satanic legacy.
And for the record, I have GURPS 3E and multiple supplements for it. It was a great game. I suggest that people create clones of all his games, and let Jackson's precious little Boomer retirement fund (SJG) just fade away...
....with a whimper.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 10, 2022, 09:15:35 PM
Yes, once again a 'wokist' slams the right by using WORDS THAT CAME OUT OF RIGHT WING LEADERS MOUTHS to accuse the right of wanting to do extremist things.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/clarence-thomas-supreme-court-reconsider-contraception-gay-marriage-rulings
God is there no limit to their vileness?!?!
So, what exactly does this have to do with Steve Jackson Games and their declaration?
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 10, 2022, 10:44:53 PM
So, what exactly does this have to do with Steve Jackson Games and their declaration?
Nothing. The guy's avatar is basically a Big Purple Troll (and I refuse to believe that's an accident) for Pete's sake.
It's pretty obvious his intent is just to drag people off topic in the hopes that Pundit will get pissed enough to ban someone he dragged onto his non-gaming tangent. Frankly, even having to explain his efforts to derail feels like a derail, so I'll conclude on that topic by saying that the sooner you put the TBP troll on ignore the happier you'll be.
On the actual topic, the two relevant factors as relate to being on the Red List are,
A) his making a point of his white privilege and linking of abortion to the first step in opposing gay marriage and tranny rights, perhaps imposing some sort of religious tithe on the population in his statement; marking his alignment with the Woke.
B) the decision to change purchasing his games from a simple "is it a good game" decision into a political and moral statement by announcing proceeds will be donated to the expressly woke and pro-abortion Lilith Fund. For me to buy one of his products now becomes what my religion calls material cooperation with evil. By buying one of his products going forward you are announcing your cooperation in seeing abortions performed.
When someone requires material cooperation with evil in order to purchase from them, they've gone from kooky eccentric to "someone who hates me and my family and my friends" and those are precisely the type of people the list was designed for; to provide a list of the people who hate us so we don't give them our money.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 10, 2022, 07:08:28 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 10, 2022, 01:24:49 PM
One of the hallmarks of Wokeness is the belief that nothing is "apolitical", and that anyone who seeks to create an arena of life (like what games one plays for leisure entertainment) where politics is unnecessary or irrelevant is really only seeking to create a bubble where their politics reign unquestioned. Public declarations of position are designed as much to force people out of their supposed "pretenses of neutrality" as they are to strengthen one's own side. The toxicity of this approach to politics is that by definition, it's unfalsifiable: if pleading for a neutral space is never believed to be anything but a stalling or disengagement tactic, then neutral spaces become impossible. (It has been used by other political alignments as well, q.v. Bush's famous, "You are either with us or with the terrorists," but the universality of this stance is, I think, a uniquely Woke thing.)
Uh, yeah. The right politicized data on smoking causing cancer because big tobacco wanted it discredited. The right politicized data on human influenced climate change because big oil wanted it discredited, it politicized 911 because big oil wanted to steal Iraq's oil and defense contractors wanted a nice profitable war. The right politicized healthcare reform because big medicorps wanted to keep their profits high. The right politicized covid to divide America. The right has politicized American history to create strife and division .
Stop trying to move this thread off-topic after my announcement. This is your one and only warning. Any repeated off-topic post in any thread will result in a permanent ban.
Odd thing about that lilith fund they are putting money into, seems since june 24 they are afraid to fund abortions because of fear from Texas law (which the fund operators call a fear of being involved with the racist criminal justice system for extra spice) going after them. So what exactly is a fund with lots of money that is made to fund abortions do if they no longer fund abortions and just collect money? From their page it seems for the short term they are just going to preach the good of abortions instead of helping women who can not afford them get them.
It makes me think SJG is really out of touch to not know that before he makes a big statement about funding them. As another poster has said, maybe his hormones are shot and getting him on TRT will fix his mind to stop blurting off. Higher T might help lots of woke stuff just go away for that matter.
iirc wasn't the whole deal about Roe Vs Wade was that abortion isn't a constitutional right? In that case I agree
Quote from: oggsmash on July 10, 2022, 10:46:23 AMBut this is where he decides to focus energy and resources from his company, so it IS relevant.
Not to us. Unlike Steve Jackson, most of us are still interested in roleplaying games.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2022, 02:52:33 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 10, 2022, 02:09:42 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 10, 2022, 01:24:49 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2022, 12:49:24 PMI don't think this is really a woke decision per se... (W)hat if a game company came out and made a statement saying that they were delighted with the Roe V Wade thing being overturned. Would they not be entitled to make such a statement?
I'd make the same observation I did before: that the "wokeness" of the action is less in which cause SJG has admitted it's supporting, and more in that it's politicized the act of buying its games at all. A game company coming out as a financial supporter of the NRA, to the extent of calling its customers who favoured gun control "wimps and wusses who c'n keep their goldurn money they don't like it!", would be using Woke tactics as well, if not for typically Woke causes.
One of the hallmarks of Wokeness is the belief that nothing is "apolitical"
I would suggest Venger Satanis' The Good Syma'arian as an example of what Rob Necronomicon is talking about. While it is a free adventure, it is both a political call out and an advertisement for his game Cha'alt. His blog announcement of the adventure went:
This is it... I mean, I've been defending Venger's products online even if I don't agree with him politically per se. But I'll still buy his stuff and say he's got every right to release what he wants. This is why I hate the likes of DT because they are pro-censorship (when it suits them) and pro-certain politics. And I say that as a lefty...
I think there's a big difference between what Venger is doing and what Steve Jackson is doing.
Venger's
product is politically charged. In this sense it's much like Thirsty Sword Lesbians. These are just honest products I personally have no interest in.
Jackson, on the other hand, is calling out
people, while selling an ostensibly politically-neutral product. These are products I could be interested in, if its consumers weren't being personally attacked by the creator.
As to Stephen's point: spot on. I will continue to avoid work from creators that act this way toward their consumer base, whether I agree with their alleged reasons or not. It's vile and gross.
Quote from: Zalman on July 11, 2022, 07:30:17 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2022, 02:52:33 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 10, 2022, 02:09:42 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 10, 2022, 01:24:49 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2022, 12:49:24 PMI don't think this is really a woke decision per se... (W)hat if a game company came out and made a statement saying that they were delighted with the Roe V Wade thing being overturned. Would they not be entitled to make such a statement?
I'd make the same observation I did before: that the "wokeness" of the action is less in which cause SJG has admitted it's supporting, and more in that it's politicized the act of buying its games at all. A game company coming out as a financial supporter of the NRA, to the extent of calling its customers who favoured gun control "wimps and wusses who c'n keep their goldurn money they don't like it!", would be using Woke tactics as well, if not for typically Woke causes.
One of the hallmarks of Wokeness is the belief that nothing is "apolitical"
I would suggest Venger Satanis' The Good Syma'arian as an example of what Rob Necronomicon is talking about. While it is a free adventure, it is both a political call out and an advertisement for his game Cha'alt. His blog announcement of the adventure went:
This is it... I mean, I've been defending Venger's products online even if I don't agree with him politically per se. But I'll still buy his stuff and say he's got every right to release what he wants. This is why I hate the likes of DT because they are pro-censorship (when it suits them) and pro-certain politics. And I say that as a lefty...
I think there's a big difference between what Venger is doing and what Steve Jackson is doing.
Venger's product is politically charged. In this sense it's much like Thirsty Sword Lesbians. These are just honest products I personally have no interest in.
Jackson, on the other hand, is calling out people, while selling an ostensibly politically-neutral product. These are products I could be interested in, if its consumers weren't being personally attacked by the creator.
As to Stephen's point: spot on. I will continue to avoid work from creators that act this way toward their consumer base, whether I agree with their alleged reasons or not. It's vile and gross.
This right here is a good example of seperating the ART from the ARTIST. When your company's official statement is a politically charged statement that brands your company and polarizes your customers.
If you make a product that is politically charged yet you say "My views are not my companies views" there's the drawn line of distinction.
This is how I can buy products that are Bad/Wrong on whatever spectrum is out there and be content with my purchase as the art speaks for itself and not the artists telling me how I should be thinking.
At this point its just easier for me to believe that SJG has been "weekend at bernies-ed" and he's just not in control any more, and its some younger people running the show with him as a sock puppet.
I got the game books I wanted from SJG back in the day, I don't think anything new will be coming out from them that I will be interested in the future, if they ever do then I might question actually buying it, but it doesn't even seem likely they'll make something I want in the future, oh well.
Quote from: Zalman on July 11, 2022, 07:30:17 AM
I think there's a big difference between what Venger is doing and what Steve Jackson is doing.
Venger's product is politically charged. In this sense it's much like Thirsty Sword Lesbians. These are just honest products I personally have no interest in.
Jackson, on the other hand, is calling out people, while selling an ostensibly politically-neutral product. These are products I could be interested in, if its consumers weren't being personally attacked by the creator.
As to Stephen's point: spot on. I will continue to avoid work from creators that act this way toward their consumer base, whether I agree with their alleged reasons or not. It's vile and gross.
That's the argument I tried to make in the other thread: It shouldn't be about ideology. People can disagree on all kinds of things, and still play together. What makes a company red shouldn't be where they fall on the political spectrum, but whether they're actively kicking broad categories of people from the table for wrongthink.
Pro-abortion? Fine. pro-life? Fine. "I'm not playing with one of..." sotto voce "...
them". Bad.
Jackson's rant definitely seems exclusionary.
Lilith has been "reclaimed" as a feminist symbol. They're not a satanic cult
Quote from: Pat on July 11, 2022, 11:20:55 AM
Jackson's rant definitely seems exclusionary.
Is it really? Sure it's highly political, but does he say "don't buy my games if you believe X" or "I don't want so-and-so as customers"?
The List suffers from unclear standards. It seemed to be heading in the direction of consumer awareness (don't buy games from people who hate you), but now it seems to be interpreted as red = woke, green = good.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2022, 11:11:22 AM
Here's what I would say if I ran my own game company: "My personal politics are none of your business. I just want your money and recognition of the effort I put into my product."
Stealing this in whole and without any shame for any and all of my entrepenurial efforts.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2022, 04:39:39 PM
Quote from: Pat on July 08, 2022, 04:24:44 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2022, 03:58:03 PM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 07:35:03 AM
Damn! I always had evil Stevie pegged as a solid conservative.
He was always Libertarian. And always had a big hate-on for the religious right.
People forget that the raid on SJG was instrumental to the creation of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, being their first big case. SJG took a hard stance against the government intruding on civil rights.
Here's SJG's summary of the infamous Secret Service raid:
https://www.sjgames.com/SS/
Which makes it especially weird that he's taking a stance in favor of unelected big-government federal bureaucrats getting to have control over abortion rules for everyone in the country.
Not really, left wing-"Libertarians" quickly become authoritarians when it's for the right cause, and they get to decide what's the right cause. Take for instance Grim Jim.
As for SJG, the forum's rules prohibit I express what should be done about it.
So I will only say this: VOTE WITH YOUR WALLET, bitching and moaning do jack shit. Stop giving money to people that hate you.
And for those who are still on the "Safe, Legal & Rare" side well you're now Christofascists to them. If you're not on that side but still think that up to birth for no reason is crazy then you too are terribad people and they hate you.
So, stop buying their shit, stop promoting their shit and start buying/promoting shit by people who don't hate you.
Quote from: rytrasmi on July 11, 2022, 01:39:11 PM
Quote from: Pat on July 11, 2022, 11:20:55 AM
Jackson's rant definitely seems exclusionary.
Is it really? Sure it's highly political, but does he say "don't buy my games if you believe X" or "I don't want so-and-so as customers"?
The List suffers from unclear standards. It seemed to be heading in the direction of consumer awareness (don't buy games from people who hate you), but now it seems to be interpreted as red = woke, green = good.
No the LIST is clear as there are far right folks on the list for stating their far-right views on subjects.
The list covers both spectrums of sellers who dislike certain types of people who buy their products.
Also i'm with Venger and why hasn't DTRPG pulled all SJG's products from their site since they are breaking one of their core tennants.
Quote from: Shasarak on July 10, 2022, 09:34:06 PM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 10, 2022, 09:15:35 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 10, 2022, 08:43:44 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2022, 12:49:24 PM
I don't think this is really a woke decision per se... This is about being pro or anti-abortion and not necessarily about the other ridiculous woke-scold nonsense that certain game companies shove down your throat. Of course, I'm pro-abortion but I'm certainly and virulently against uber political correctness.
But what if a game company came out and made a statement saying that they were delighted with the Roe V Wade thing being overturned. Would they not be entitled to make such a statement? Even though I might not agree at all with their sentiments.
I just don't believe you are automatically 'uber woke' if you're against abortion. So as far as I'm concerned I'm happy to still buy their stuff.
Did you read the statement? The guy went on about being a privileged straight white male, then started veering off into wild speculation about a bunch of other unrelated stuff, like transgender people losing access to treatment, gay marriage being repealed, etc. It goes well beyond simple support for abortion.
[
Yes, once again a 'wokist' slams the right by using WORDS THAT CAME OUT OF RIGHT WING LEADERS MOUTHS to accuse the right of wanting to do extremist things.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/clarence-thomas-supreme-court-reconsider-contraception-gay-marriage-rulings
God is there no limit to their vileness?!?!
There is no limit.
Its vileness all the way down until you are donating to Lilith to kill babies.
Well maybe if the Christian god didn't murder 100 of lilith?s children a day she wouldn't kill his children's babies.
Quote from: rytrasmi on July 11, 2022, 01:39:11 PM
Quote from: Pat on July 11, 2022, 11:20:55 AM
Jackson's rant definitely seems exclusionary.
Is it really? Sure it's highly political, but does he say "don't buy my games if you believe X" or "I don't want so-and-so as customers"?
The List suffers from unclear standards. It seemed to be heading in the direction of consumer awareness (don't buy games from people who hate you), but now it seems to be interpreted as red = woke, green = good.
He doesn't go that far, no. But he does say he's
threatened (bold his) by the Supreme Court, talks about the "theofascists" in power, and implies that applies to anyone who supports Donald Trump and/or Fox News. If you see the mainstream political opposition as a direct threat and literal Nazis, how can you game with them? You can't just agree to disagree and get on with elfgames with that kind of extremist, absolutist, and polarizing rhetoric.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 11, 2022, 07:15:54 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on July 10, 2022, 10:46:23 AMBut this is where he decides to focus energy and resources from his company, so it IS relevant.
Not to us. Unlike Steve Jackson, most of us are still interested in roleplaying games.
Who's "us"?
And this is extremely relevant, because giving money to people is making a moral decision nowadays. I am willing to give money to people with completely different beliefs from myself, but I do have a threshold, a limit.
I will pay money to evil men in order to acquire food to survive. We all do this when we give money to giant mega-corporations, or put our money in one of the giant banking cartels. But tabletop rpgs are not food.....and thus, not necessary for survival. They're games, dude.
The owner of a gaming company demonstrated extreme self-righteousness about perpetuating
BABY MURDER, and then proceeded to donate to a fund named after a
DEMON KNOWN FOR MURDERING BABIES.
Well, guess what? Fuck that shit. That is depraved beyond belief, and I will not give him my money.
Quote from: Banjo Destructo on July 11, 2022, 10:32:37 AM
At this point its just easier for me to believe that SJG has been "weekend at bernies-ed" and he's just not in control any more, and its some younger people running the show with him as a sock puppet.
I got the game books I wanted from SJG back in the day, I don't think anything new will be coming out from them that I will be interested in the future, if they ever do then I might question actually buying it, but it doesn't even seem likely they'll make something I want in the future, oh well.
This would not surprise me in the least. I've been seeing way too many instances lately of politicians, actors, and owners of businesses being blackmailed, threatened, or bribed into publicly endorsing destructively evil ideologies. I've wondered if Jackson is secretly receiving some type of ESG investment capital (NWO bribe money) from organizations like Blackrock and the WEF. I mean, who fucking knows what's happening over there? I have no clue.
I mean, forget the fact that Jackson demonstrates a desire for "gun control" in his "Roe vs Wade" article (blaming mass shootings on "the right"), after that clumsy and obvious Uvalde false flag event. He also brings up Ukraine. You know SJG has a
"Steve Jackson Games Munchkin Ukraine Shirt"? Because it's obviously vitally important for us gamers to support the child trafficking kleptocracy in Ukraine, right? We've gotta protect those poor precious neo-Nazis in the Azov Battalion installed by the CIA in Ukraine via a color revolution in 2014, right? We must save them and the other delightful "Derp State" operatives in Ukraine from the big, bad, evil Russians, right? Because it's obviously necessary for NATO to deliberately provoke Russia and cause WW3, by putting soldiers and bioweapons labs right on Russia's border, yes? So go out and
buy that Munchkin Ukraine T-shirt, retards, because the CIA and their neo-Nazi stooges in Ukraine need all the help they can get, right?
For fuck's sake.
Steve Jackson should have kept his stupid Boomer mouth shut, and focused on making tabletop roleplaying games and card games. And this is assuming that it was even Jackson who wrote this press release on his site, which is debatable. Maybe the man really isn't in control of his company any more. Maybe you're right. Who knows?
The only thing I am certain of is that I am boycotting Steve Jackson Games. If Jackson still controls his own company, then he'd better have a damn good explanation for donating to an abortion fund named after a
BABY-KILLING DEMON. But whatever. Fuck him.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 11, 2022, 01:02:42 PM
Lilith has been "reclaimed" as a feminist symbol. They're not a satanic cult
The fuck they're not.
If "feminists" decide to use a
BABY-KILLING DEMON as their precious feminist icon, then that feminist group is indeed a
SATANIC CULT.....whether they admit to it or not.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 11, 2022, 02:07:11 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 10, 2022, 09:34:06 PM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 10, 2022, 09:15:35 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 10, 2022, 08:43:44 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2022, 12:49:24 PM
I don't think this is really a woke decision per se... This is about being pro or anti-abortion and not necessarily about the other ridiculous woke-scold nonsense that certain game companies shove down your throat. Of course, I'm pro-abortion but I'm certainly and virulently against uber political correctness.
But what if a game company came out and made a statement saying that they were delighted with the Roe V Wade thing being overturned. Would they not be entitled to make such a statement? Even though I might not agree at all with their sentiments.
I just don't believe you are automatically 'uber woke' if you're against abortion. So as far as I'm concerned I'm happy to still buy their stuff.
Did you read the statement? The guy went on about being a privileged straight white male, then started veering off into wild speculation about a bunch of other unrelated stuff, like transgender people losing access to treatment, gay marriage being repealed, etc. It goes well beyond simple support for abortion.
[
Yes, once again a 'wokist' slams the right by using WORDS THAT CAME OUT OF RIGHT WING LEADERS MOUTHS to accuse the right of wanting to do extremist things.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/clarence-thomas-supreme-court-reconsider-contraception-gay-marriage-rulings
God is there no limit to their vileness?!?!
There is no limit.
Its vileness all the way down until you are donating to Lilith to kill babies.
Well maybe if the Christian god didn't murder 100 of lilith?s children a day she wouldn't kill his children's babies.
Battlemaster, you are obviously not on this site for roleplaying games. I sometimes wonder if you're paid to post here. Your "schtick" is very tedious and unpleasant, by the way. Just stop.
Baaaa-aaaaa-aaaaaa-aaa.
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on July 11, 2022, 03:09:45 PMBecause it's obviously vitally important for us gamers to support the child trafficking kleptocracy in Ukraine, right?
While Im generally not for people supporting the flavor of the day, if I made sweeping value judgements about nations based on the worst aspects they heard from the news, I would atomize every man, woman and child in the United States (and just about everywhere else).
Americans are just controlled by massive corporate, and military cartels that they use to extort other nations, with puppet elections, while existing on soil taken from natives. I guess that means no matter what bad thing happens to some american, somewhere, they are just all evil and should die. They are all just corpulent ogres, placidly sitting in front of mind-rot boxes while they shovel garbage into their consumption holes while they demand more gayness should be added to educational ciruculms.
Sorry, this is a personal Bubaboo from a person with family in Ukraine.
I pity the stupidity that is at SJG. I'll never buy again. Time to toss over 50 titles and remove pdf's.
Virtue signaling linked with the false vision of freedom. True moral idiocy.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 11, 2022, 04:31:26 PM
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on July 11, 2022, 03:09:45 PMBecause it's obviously vitally important for us gamers to support the child trafficking kleptocracy in Ukraine, right?
While Im generally not for people supporting the flavor of the day, if I made sweeping value judgements about nations based on the worst aspects they heard from the news, I would atomize every man, woman and child in the United States (and just about everywhere else).
Americans are just controlled by massive corporate, and military cartels that they use to extort other nations, with puppet elections, while existing on soil taken from natives. I guess that means no matter what bad thing happens to some american, somewhere, they are just all evil and should die. They are all just corpulent ogres, placidly sitting in front of mind-rot boxes while they shovel garbage into their consumption holes while they demand more gayness should be added to educational ciruculms.
Sorry, this is a personal Bubaboo from a person with family in Ukraine.
I have no quarrel whatsoever with ordinary Ukrainians. Ukrainians are great. The Ukrainian people are being screwed over HARD, as the Ukrainian government and Ukrainian people are completely SEPARATE. They are being ruled over by Satanically evil foreigners (just like America), but this is obviously off-topic.
I brought it up, because Steve Jackson mentioned in the "Roe vs Wade" article that he was selling a Ukraine t-shirt.....which means that he's at least indirectly supporting American involvement over there, which is a HORRIBLE IDEA that establishes his pattern of behavior and beliefs. In other words, he's openly politicizing gaming with his "Munchkin Ukraine" t-shirt, and indirectly encouraging us to go kill Russians, in this NATO/CIA-sponsored proxy war in Ukraine.
Munchkin has been both a card game and a tabletop rpg, but now Jackson wants to link his IP to the Russia/Ukraine/NATO proxy war.
The point is that Steve Jackson's article indicates he supports a lot of NWO/globohomo wankery like abortion, gun control, killing Russians in Ukraine (WW3), and more......and it's a bad idea to financially support someone who hates you and wants you dead. And frankly, when I saw him proudly advocating
BABY-KILLING, by donating to a fund named after a
DEMON THAT KILLS BABIES....I became morally disgusted.
Oh, well. It is what it is.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 11, 2022, 02:07:11 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 10, 2022, 09:34:06 PM
There is no limit.
Its vileness all the way down until you are donating to Lilith to kill babies.
Well maybe if the Christian god didn't murder 100 of lilith?s children a day she wouldn't kill his children's babies.
Oh no, wont someone think of the demon spawn?
SJG has several Bundle of Holding offerings. The charity there is 'Direct Relief' which is some sort of Wuhan flu pandemic relief organization.
I thought it odd since everyone I know believe the "pandemic" is ancient history, except for maybe Karen who is still wearing a mask.
Quote from: DocJones on July 11, 2022, 06:11:13 PM
SJG has several Bundle of Holding offerings. The charity there is 'Direct Relief' which is some sort of Wuhan flu pandemic relief organization.
I thought it odd since everyone I know believe the "pandemic" is ancient history, except for maybe Karen who is still wearing a mask.
From what I've seen, it's the Bundle of Holding's 'default' charity option.
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on July 11, 2022, 05:10:37 PM
I brought it up, because Steve Jackson mentioned in the "Roe vs Wade" article that he was selling a Ukraine t-shirt.....which means that he's at least indirectly supporting American involvement over there, which is a HORRIBLE IDEA that establishes his pattern of behavior and beliefs. In other words, he's openly politicizing gaming with his "Munchkin Ukraine" t-shirt, and indirectly encouraging us to go kill Russians, in this NATO/CIA-sponsored proxy war in Ukraine.
Did Steve Jackson say anything about American involvement? According to his post, the Munchkin Ukraine t-shirt profits were donated to World Central Kitchen which provides food aid to the citizens of Ukraine being devastated by the Russian invasion. As far as I can see, he is supporting the citizens of Ukraine, not any military action.
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/2022-03-22
Quote from: jhkim on July 11, 2022, 08:22:08 PM
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on July 11, 2022, 05:10:37 PM
I brought it up, because Steve Jackson mentioned in the "Roe vs Wade" article that he was selling a Ukraine t-shirt.....which means that he's at least indirectly supporting American involvement over there, which is a HORRIBLE IDEA that establishes his pattern of behavior and beliefs. In other words, he's openly politicizing gaming with his "Munchkin Ukraine" t-shirt, and indirectly encouraging us to go kill Russians, in this NATO/CIA-sponsored proxy war in Ukraine.
Did Steve Jackson say anything about American involvement? According to his post, the Munchkin Ukraine t-shirt profits were donated to World Central Kitchen which provides food aid to the citizens of Ukraine being devastated by the Russian invasion. As far as I can see, he is supporting the citizens of Ukraine, not any military action.
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/2022-03-22
You have it right, but the trumptards around here see anything anyone on the left does as bad wrong and grimdark.
Annnd Sacrificial Lamb is apparently my spirit animal. Damn, well said.
I've got no issue with people that disagree with me. There are plenty of opinions to go around. Heck, I live in Colorado and I'd have no friends if I wasn't open to people on the opposite side of thinking than me. But actively donating to the Lilith Fund after ranting crazy-talk about random other stuff? SJG has jumped the shark for me and I'm not a cancelculture kind of guy. But I can't send money to people that actively work against what I stand for. And we were evaluating GURPS as a possible game system for our next "not D&D" fantasy TTRPG. Well, no más, gracias. Take your crazy talk rants and disappear quietly.
I look forward to the lefties "taking back" the titles of Satan and Asmodeus for their next names of their "freedom and social justice" organizations. This shit is ridiculous, you name organizations after literal demons, pursue things that are demonic, and wonder why people on the middle and other side of the spectrum politically might start to question everything you put your effort and name to. SJG should ride off into that Texas sunset, pondering his upper middle class privilege (because that is what he is really guilty of, and what is so often called "white" privilege...which is being upper middle class with married parents) and disappear.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 11, 2022, 07:15:54 AMUnlike Steve Jackson, most of us are still interested in roleplaying games.
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on July 11, 2022, 03:09:45 PM
Who's "us"?
I'm reminded of the time back on The Big Purple when in conversation with me, Kiero said, "I don't consider myself a gamer," and I said, "Then you don't belong here," and I was given a warning, or ban or something.
Fortunately this site is not run by BNGs, and so I can say without fear of repeating that experience:
If you are not interested in roleplaying games, you don't belong here. Therpgsite is, as Pundit likes to remind us, a place for free speech about rpgs. Not about other stuff. I don't go on some politics subreddit and start blathering about D&D, that'd be stupid. A time and place for everything under the sun.
Okay, DM Pundit, now I'm ready to make my
turn undead roll!
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 11, 2022, 01:02:42 PM
Lilith has been "reclaimed" as a feminist symbol. They're not a satanic cult
I'm sure they don't literally believe in any gods or demons. OTOH actual official Satanists mostly don't believe in the literal existence of Satan, either. I don't think Christians are completely wrong in calling groups like this Lilith abortion advocacy group Satanic, but believing Christians need to understand that these groups (a) see themselves as the good guys ofc, and (b) don't believe in the literal existence of God, Satan, Lilith et al. So Lilith can be both a Feminist symbol and a Satanic symbol, with the latter empowering the former.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 12, 2022, 05:49:21 AM
I look forward to the lefties "taking back" the titles of Satan and Asmodeus for their next names of their "freedom and social justice" organizations.
Alinsky did dedicate
Rules for Radicals to Satan, what, 60 years ago? Of course he was being tongue in cheek, but it's a well established trope.
As for Steve Jackson, this looks like a simple case of Boomer Trump+Covid Derangement Syndrome (BTCD?) to me. I have a Boomer friend in Oregon, a lower class pagan little-old-lady, who comes out with similar rants. Trump (the media's take on Trump) charged them up, then Covid socially isolated them. I'm more sorrow than in anger, but he certainly belongs on the Red List.
Quote from: S'mon on July 12, 2022, 06:16:54 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 11, 2022, 01:02:42 PM
Lilith has been "reclaimed" as a feminist symbol. They're not a satanic cult
I'm sure they don't literally believe in any gods or demons. OTOH actual official Satanists mostly don't believe in the literal existence of Satan, either. I don't think Christians are completely wrong in calling groups like this Lilith abortion advocacy group Satanic, but believing Christians need to understand that these groups (a) see themselves as the good guys ofc, and (b) don't believe in the literal existence of God, Satan, Lilith et al. So Lilith can be both a Feminist symbol and a Satanic symbol, with the latter empowering the former.
Yeah, plus Lilith is supposed to have been the first wife of Adam according to some interpretations, before she left him cuz she didn't want to be submissive to him, so there's some sort of unruly woman archetype element to it (the first "woman who don't need no man"). But still, if you name an abortion fund after a baby killing demon, don't be surprised if people take the "WTF?" way. Specially when Lilith is based on an earlier Mesopotamian demon (Lilitu) who was also a baby killing demon, so her status as a killer of babies goes way back to the dawn of civilization.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 12, 2022, 06:11:22 AMKiero said, "I don't consider myself a gamer," and I said, "Then you don't belong here," and I was given a warning, or ban or something.
Fortunately this site is not run by BNGs, and so I can say without fear of repeating that experience:
If you are not interested in roleplaying games, you don't belong here.
Possibly not applicable to the original conversation (which I didn't read), but it occurs to me that you can be interested in roleplaying games without being "A Gamer" if you are using that term to mean a very specific stereotype.
As an example, I unashamedly like horror and I read and watch a fair amount of it, but I might have to admit to not considering myself to be a True Horror Fan when compared to those who read/watch
everything in the genre. And more brutally, I still like, collect, read, and design RPGs, and like talking about them and about the state of the fandom and the industry, but have not had the actual time to actually
play for years. If one's definition of "a gamer" is someone who actually, you know, plays the games, then I would have to admit to not qualifying either.
Quote from: S'mon on July 12, 2022, 06:25:22 AM
As for Steve Jackson, this looks like a simple case of Boomer Trump+Covid Derangement Syndrome (BTCD?) to me. I have a Boomer friend in Oregon, a lower class pagan little-old-lady, who comes out with similar rants. Trump (the media's take on Trump) charged them up, then Covid socially isolated them. I'm more sorrow than in anger, but he certainly belongs on the Red List.
Kinda funny to hear the right whining about Trump derangement syndrome after the term 'Obama derangement syndrome' was coined over 10 years ago to describe the right. Before the 8 years of Obama derangement syndrome the left endured from tge right we had 8 years of bill Clinton derangement syndrome, followed by a few years of Hillary Clinton derangement syndrome.
Another funny thing about 'Trump derangement syndrome' vs Obama/Clinton degangement syndrome is that Obama and Clinton won all the elections they were in and Trump lost both he was in. >:(
Greetings!
Very sad and unfortunate to hear SJG is really a Libtard moron.
As for supporting baby murder, yeah. Totally disgusting. Let them all be damned, and thrown into the fire.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 12, 2022, 10:29:33 AM
Quote from: S'mon on July 12, 2022, 06:25:22 AM
As for Steve Jackson, this looks like a simple case of Boomer Trump+Covid Derangement Syndrome (BTCD?) to me. I have a Boomer friend in Oregon, a lower class pagan little-old-lady, who comes out with similar rants. Trump (the media's take on Trump) charged them up, then Covid socially isolated them. I'm more sorrow than in anger, but he certainly belongs on the Red List.
Kinda funny to hear the right whining about Trump derangement syndrome after the term 'Obama derangement syndrome' was coined over 10 years ago to describe the right. Before the 8 years of Obama derangement syndrome the left endured from tge right we had 8 years of bill Clinton derangement syndrome, followed by a few years of Hillary Clinton derangement syndrome.
Another funny thing about 'Trump derangement syndrome' vs Obama/Clinton degangement syndrome is that Obama and Clinton won all the elections they were in and Trump lost both he was in. >:(
I just compared "Trump Derangement Syndrome" and "Obama Derangement Syndrome" on Google Trends.
With TDS at 100, ODS peaked at 4. They're not even in the same ballpark.
Further inspection reveals use of ODS is isolated to one and only one state: New York (Steve Jackson is from Texas).
No wonder I never heard of the term. Your little bubble is not the world.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 12, 2022, 10:05:56 AMAnd more brutally, I still like, collect, read, and design RPGs, and like talking about them and about the state of the fandom and the industry, but have not had the actual time to actually play for years. If one's definition of "a gamer" is someone who actually, you know, plays the games, then I would have to admit to not qualifying either.
For me it's the opposite. I play RPGs semi-regularly (as part of a rotation on game night) but I'm not part of the RPG "Community". I don't go to conventions or buy products. So I don't consider myself an "RPG gamer".
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 12, 2022, 09:25:08 AM
Yeah, plus Lilith is supposed to have been the first wife of Adam according to some interpretations, before she left him cuz she didn't want to be submissive to him, so there's some sort of unruly woman archetype element to it (the first "woman who don't need no man"). But still, if you name an abortion fund after a baby killing demon, don't be surprised if people take the "WTF?" way. Specially when Lilith is based on an earlier Mesopotamian demon (Lilitu) who was also a baby killing demon, so her status as a killer of babies goes way back to the dawn of civilization.
The "First Wife of Adam" nonsense didn't exist until the Medieval period in some scattered Talmudic writings (its possible it may have existed as early as AD 500, but the earliest hard evidence for it comes from writings c. AD 1100). That it was later adopted by the same transgressive counter-culture types who regard Satan in Paradise Lost as a heroic figure and Gnosticism as something profound (instead of the Scientology of its day) is utterly unsurprising.
I don't mind the Woke adopting various demons as their mascots though. It better identifies what they really are; not glorious rebels in an ongoing war, but sore losers who now seek to inflict the same misery they have inflicted on themselves on as many other people as possible out of spite and malice.
It's also a great way to decide who gets my money on the RPG front as I can just take a quick shuffle through their fantasy religion and see where they place figures like Lilith, Baphomet, etc. within their cosmology and have a pretty good idea how woke they actually lean.
Quote from: S'mon on July 12, 2022, 06:25:22 AM
As for Steve Jackson, this looks like a simple case of Boomer Trump+Covid Derangement Syndrome (BTCD?) to me. I have a Boomer friend in Oregon, a lower class pagan little-old-lady, who comes out with similar rants. Trump (the media's take on Trump) charged them up, then Covid socially isolated them. I'm more sorrow than in anger, but he certainly belongs on the Red List.
This is kind of my take on things. The modern media landscape isn't particularly kind to a lot of older people. As someone who would've defined myself as socially Democrat/financially Republican in the 90's, I'd probably be deranged if all I watched was CNN(my preferred news outlet 10+ years ago).
Personally my dislike with SJG tends to be on how over protective they are with their properties. They've made it very hard to create online tooling for their IP in the past and feel like they're stuck in the 90's with their licensing.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 12, 2022, 10:29:33 AM
Quote from: S'mon on July 12, 2022, 06:25:22 AM
As for Steve Jackson, this looks like a simple case of Boomer Trump+Covid Derangement Syndrome (BTCD?) to me. I have a Boomer friend in Oregon, a lower class pagan little-old-lady, who comes out with similar rants. Trump (the media's take on Trump) charged them up, then Covid socially isolated them. I'm more sorrow than in anger, but he certainly belongs on the Red List.
Kinda funny to hear the right whining about Trump derangement syndrome after the term 'Obama derangement syndrome' was coined over 10 years ago to describe the right. Before the 8 years of Obama derangement syndrome the left endured from tge right we had 8 years of bill Clinton derangement syndrome, followed by a few years of Hillary Clinton derangement syndrome.
Another funny thing about 'Trump derangement syndrome' vs Obama/Clinton degangement syndrome is that Obama and Clinton won all the elections they were in and Trump lost both he was in. >:(
Kinda funny to see you (once again) bringing up some unrelated "what about the right" comment that doesn't refute nor address what actually was being said, and is really just partisan diahrea. Is S'mon even a right-winger? How does any of this nonsense address the notion that SJ's statement is just him being a boomer with TDS?
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 10, 2022, 03:50:36 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2022, 12:49:24 PM
I don't think this is really a woke decision per se... This is about being pro or anti-abortion and not necessarily about the other ridiculous woke-scold nonsense that certain game companies shove down your throat. Of course, I'm pro-abortion but I'm certainly and virulently against uber political correctness.
But what if a game company came out and made a statement saying that they were delighted with the Roe V Wade thing being overturned. Would they not be entitled to make such a statement? Even though I might not agree at all with their sentiments.
I just don't believe you are automatically 'uber woke' if you're against abortion. So as far as I'm concerned I'm happy to still buy their stuff.
Agree and agree. I think "Woke" is used for ones with the SJW ideology, regardless of if they're doing it to protect their corporation from government giving them a bad social score. I don't question the sincerity of SJG's SJW stance, because it was so unhinged, rather than professional.
I also support free speech. Unlike SJG, I believe in the Constitution, and will defend his right to free speech, if people attack his right to speak. I also don't care if Steve Jackson is pro-life or pro-abortion. I don't believe in boycotts. But I do believe in things like the woke list, that helps inform consumers, and allow them make a personal decision to not support a company if profits from their purchases are going to something they believe is intrinsically evil.
@ member VengerSatanis, what it the url link to your video? I'd like to look at it.
Since you asked, here's a link to my video...
https://youtu.be/P-JS7o1EFEI
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 12, 2022, 10:29:33 AM
Quote from: S'mon on July 12, 2022, 06:25:22 AM
As for Steve Jackson, this looks like a simple case of Boomer Trump+Covid Derangement Syndrome (BTCD?) to me. I have a Boomer friend in Oregon, a lower class pagan little-old-lady, who comes out with similar rants. Trump (the media's take on Trump) charged them up, then Covid socially isolated them. I'm more sorrow than in anger, but he certainly belongs on the Red List.
Kinda funny to hear the right whining about Trump derangement syndrome after the term 'Obama derangement syndrome' was coined over 10 years ago to describe the right. Before the 8 years of Obama derangement syndrome the left endured from tge right we had 8 years of bill Clinton derangement syndrome, followed by a few years of Hillary Clinton derangement syndrome.
Another funny thing about 'Trump derangement syndrome' vs Obama/Clinton degangement syndrome is that Obama and Clinton won all the elections they were in and Trump lost both he was in. >:(
OK, you had been warned. Banned for continued attempts at derailing threads into off-topic posting.
Quote from: Pat on July 12, 2022, 10:42:13 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 12, 2022, 10:29:33 AM
Quote from: S'mon on July 12, 2022, 06:25:22 AM
As for Steve Jackson, this looks like a simple case of Boomer Trump+Covid Derangement Syndrome (BTCD?) to me. I have a Boomer friend in Oregon, a lower class pagan little-old-lady, who comes out with similar rants. Trump (the media's take on Trump) charged them up, then Covid socially isolated them. I'm more sorrow than in anger, but he certainly belongs on the Red List.
Kinda funny to hear the right whining about Trump derangement syndrome after the term 'Obama derangement syndrome' was coined over 10 years ago to describe the right. Before the 8 years of Obama derangement syndrome the left endured from tge right we had 8 years of bill Clinton derangement syndrome, followed by a few years of Hillary Clinton derangement syndrome.
Another funny thing about 'Trump derangement syndrome' vs Obama/Clinton degangement syndrome is that Obama and Clinton won all the elections they were in and Trump lost both he was in. >:(
I just compared "Trump Derangement Syndrome" and "Obama Derangement Syndrome" on Google Trends.
With TDS at 100, ODS peaked at 4. They're not even in the same ballpark.
Further inspection reveals use of ODS is isolated to one and only one state: New York (Steve Jackson is from Texas).
No wonder I never heard of the term. Your little bubble is not the world.
You'd received warnings and threadbans in the past. And yet you keep right on insisting in off topic posting. Banned.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 10, 2022, 07:08:28 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 10, 2022, 01:24:49 PM
One of the hallmarks of Wokeness is the belief that nothing is "apolitical", and that anyone who seeks to create an arena of life (like what games one plays for leisure entertainment) where politics is unnecessary or irrelevant is really only seeking to create a bubble where their politics reign unquestioned. Public declarations of position are designed as much to force people out of their supposed "pretenses of neutrality" as they are to strengthen one's own side. The toxicity of this approach to politics is that by definition, it's unfalsifiable: if pleading for a neutral space is never believed to be anything but a stalling or disengagement tactic, then neutral spaces become impossible. (It has been used by other political alignments as well, q.v. Bush's famous, "You are either with us or with the terrorists," but the universality of this stance is, I think, a uniquely Woke thing.)
Uh, yeah. The right politicized data on smoking causing cancer because big tobacco wanted it discredited. The right politicized data on human influenced climate change because big oil wanted it discredited, it politicized 911 because big oil wanted to steal Iraq's oil and defense contractors wanted a nice profitable war. The right politicized healthcare reform because big medicorps wanted to keep their profits high. The right politicized covid to divide America. The right has politicized American history to create strife and division .
Nonsense.
Battlemaster is a troll. and I posted a reply to him, but I know it's best not to reply to trolls, so I'm sorry I took the bait and removed the reply.
Did you know that SJ had a nother RPg too, Fantasy Trip. Everyone talks about grups but the game grew out of Fantasy Trip, something in print now.
Never a great thing to see companies go red on the meter, at least from my perspective. Even when it's self destructive I feel like it energizes that trend towards a woke-dominated industry. People follow other companies even off of cliffs like lemmings. Probably thinking it's the new hip thing or whatever.
Also, much though I seldom agreed with Battlemaster, his dissenting opinion and ability to start conversations and debate will be missed. Probably not quite as much as Pat, but hey, the latter did some pretty solid research and was a valuable source of information, so yeah.
I am probably going to have to be careful myself about inadvertently steering threads into other realms of discussion going forward. Because at times I've been not much better, especially in threads like the RPG.net one, where Pat actually had to warn me, lol. Though I guess that at least was in the more political subforum.
Quote from: KindaMeh on July 12, 2022, 09:49:46 PM
Never a great thing to see companies go red on the meter, at least from my perspective. Even when it's self destructive I feel like it energizes that trend towards a woke-dominated industry. People follow other companies even off of cliffs like lemmings. Probably thinking it's the new hip thing or whatever.
Also, much though I seldom agreed with Battlemaster, his dissenting opinion and ability to start conversations and debate will be missed. Probably not quite as much as Pat, but hey, the latter did some pretty solid research and was a valuable source of information, so yeah.
I am probably going to have to be careful myself about inadvertently steering threads into other realms of discussion going forward. Because at times I've been not much better, especially in threads like the RPG.net one, where Pat actually had to warn me, lol. Though I guess that at least was in the more political subforum.
Battlemaster won't be missed by me. How fucking hard is it to talk about tabletop rpgs in the tabletop rpg subforum? That knucklehead wasn't here to discuss roleplaying games. With him, it was just
"Trump, Trumptards, Civil War, fascism, blah, blah". I read his posts, and thought, "yeah, I get it, whatever....but what does this have to do with tabletop games?"
In regards to Steve Jackson Games, I'll freely admit he published some great stuff. I liked reading through GURPS 3e, and the game provides tons of great ideas (and stimulates creativity) if you're into game design. And my friends and I used to play Munchkin
ALL THE TIME. I even have Jackson's d20 Munchkin rpg, and it wasn't horrible.
That said, I don't trust Steve Jackson any more. I don't need game designers to agree with me on everything, or even agree with me in most things.....but I do have limits in regards to how much moral depravity I'm willing to endure. If we're willing to give money to a man who (practically speaking) funds a satanic organization that advocates the murder of children, just so we can have our precious elf games....then we are morally culpable for his evil actions.
For the record, I fully understand people giving money to big corporations and banks, in order to survive (which we all do).....even though it's very likely that the men who control these institutions are monstrously evil. But people don't NEED Munchkin or GURPS in order to put food upon their tables.
When I read Jackson's "Roe v. Wade" article on his site, he betrayed such weakness, selfishness, and fear....that he came across as a broken down man who's sold his own soul, while being extremely self-righteous about it. It's too bad, because I like a lot of his games. But you know what? I can live without it. Maybe it's just best to make some GURPS or Munchkin clones, and watch Steve Jackson Games implode into oblivion.
Good thing I pirate PDFs! Hahaha!
Well, damn. Pat's one of the more insightful posters on the site. Though it's very clear he did break the rules, I'll miss his ideas.
Quote from: Mishihari on July 13, 2022, 12:34:08 AM
Well, damn. Pat's one of the more insightful posters on the site. Though it's very clear he did break the rules, I'll miss his ideas.
he was often a good poster. The problem is he'd been warned before and kept taking the bait and breaking the rules.
The sad thing is that SJG held out from going woke for such a long time, and their forums and blog posts were basically politics-free. Actually there were a couple of anti-Trump announcements during the most feverish times of the last few years, but they were so few that many people missed them and continued to assume that Steve and by extension his company were low-key right wingers. Let's face it, SJG is an old-guard, white boomer and Southern gaming company and many of the oldest and most loyal fans fit into that category WHILE NOT BEING LOUD ABOUT IT. It's at least 50% of the fan base that is being disrespected. I'm not American, religious or particularly anti-abortion, I just want the fucking culture wars out of my gaming. SJG is on my shitlist after lots of spending and evangelism on their behalf. Steve is an OG game designer and I appreciate his contributions to the hobby, but i hope he retires early and I hope that the more obnoxious staff get made redundant on the back of a major downsizing. Thanks, I already have all the GURPS I need to see me through.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 12, 2022, 08:07:14 PM
Battlemaster is a troll. and I posted a reply to him, but I know it's best not to reply to trolls, so I'm sorry I took the bait and removed the reply.
Did you know that SJ had a nother RPg too, Fantasy Trip. Everyone talks about grups but the game grew out of Fantasy Trip, something in print now.
He got the bum's rush. Well deserved.
Quote from: Mishihari on July 13, 2022, 12:34:08 AM
Well, damn. Pat's one of the more insightful posters on the site. Though it's very clear he did break the rules, I'll miss his ideas.
Greetings!
Yeah, I think Pat was great! It is truly sad that a cock-sucking Libtard troll like Battlemaster gets Pat's goat and gets him taken down with him. That is a real loss for this forum. Pat is intelligent, informative, and usually reasonable. Battlemaster is a moron. Just think, Battlemaster couldn't keep the topic focused on SJG, and just loved provoking Pat and anyone else into a shitfest. It is great that someone like Battlemaster is gone. He didn't contribute anything worthwhile to our forum here. PAT, on the other hand, has been a great member and a solid, consistent poster and contributor.
SJG won't really be a loss though in the big picture of things. I think the best work they did was many years ago, and I have all of that. GURPS has become more and more irrelevant as the years pass.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 13, 2022, 06:14:44 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on July 13, 2022, 12:34:08 AM
Well, damn. Pat's one of the more insightful posters on the site. Though it's very clear he did break the rules, I'll miss his ideas.
he was often a good poster. The problem is he'd been warned before and kept taking the bait and breaking the rules.
Can Pat request to be unbanned after a time? A good Virtual Time Out can do people wonders.
Has there been any push back from DTRPG regarding SJG's screed?
Quote from: TheShadow on July 13, 2022, 06:40:21 AM
The sad thing is that SJG held out from going woke for such a long time, and their forums and blog posts were basically politics-free. Actually there were a couple of anti-Trump announcements during the most feverish times of the last few years, but they were so few that many people missed them and continued to assume that Steve and by extension his company were low-key right wingers. Let's face it, SJG is an old-guard, white boomer and Southern gaming company and many of the oldest and most loyal fans fit into that category WHILE NOT BEING LOUD ABOUT IT. It's at least 50% of the fan base that is being disrespected. I'm not American, religious or particularly anti-abortion, I just want the fucking culture wars out of my gaming. SJG is on my shitlist after lots of spending and evangelism on their behalf. Steve is an OG game designer and I appreciate his contributions to the hobby, but i hope he retires early and I hope that the more obnoxious staff get made redundant on the back of a major downsizing. Thanks, I already have all the GURPS I need to see me through.
Agreed. I had all I needed with 3E, and 4E never did anything for me.
I will politely add my voice to those asking for clemency for Pat, as well.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on July 13, 2022, 09:27:16 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 13, 2022, 06:14:44 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on July 13, 2022, 12:34:08 AM
Well, damn. Pat's one of the more insightful posters on the site. Though it's very clear he did break the rules, I'll miss his ideas.
he was often a good poster. The problem is he'd been warned before and kept taking the bait and breaking the rules.
Can Pat request to be unbanned after a time? A good Virtual Time Out can do people wonders.
Has there been any push back from DTRPG regarding SJG's screed?
I got into a bunch of nasty arguments with Pat a bunch times and certainly didn't get along with him all the time. But he was often better informed than most and contributed far more than Battlemaster ever did. So hoping he can return eventually. Battlemaster was just an idiot, and as much as this forum could use oppositional voices who don't hold the same political views as like 80%+ of the rest of the boards his points were just asinine and wrong, and irrelevant to what was being said like 90% of the time.
Seems that I am late to the party but this sucks. SJ Games has been on of my favorite companies throughout my time in the hobby and then he goes and does this. GURPS and Car Wars ate up a crazy portion of my youth.
The contributions to the Lilith fund are too much. I can ignore creators politics for the most part but funneling money I spend into this is disgusting. No now GURPS for me.
Mark
Quote from: THE_Leopold on July 13, 2022, 09:27:16 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 13, 2022, 06:14:44 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on July 13, 2022, 12:34:08 AM
Well, damn. Pat's one of the more insightful posters on the site. Though it's very clear he did break the rules, I'll miss his ideas.
he was often a good poster. The problem is he'd been warned before and kept taking the bait and breaking the rules.
Can Pat request to be unbanned after a time? A good Virtual Time Out can do people wonders.
Has there been any push back from DTRPG regarding SJG's screed?
I'll throw in for Pat as well. His posts have been well-informed and intelligent for the majority. I think we all just need to recognize trolls and not take their bait a little better perhaps.
I have seen nothing on DTRPG as of yet regarding SJG, and I doubt that we will. It's been fairly obvious where their political beliefs lie for some time now. The site is firmly in the camp of "politics in gaming? Only if they agree with mine!"
Quote from: shihansmurf on July 13, 2022, 10:50:00 AM
Now no GURPS for me.
Just because the author now is being a moron doesn't mean you should have to throw away pre-moron material you already have. I'm not pitching my collection of classic Disney films I bought decades ago because they're now releasing nothing but shit sandwiches.
Nor am I going to pitch my 3e D&D or GURPS material just because the proceeds of new sales will be going to something I consider reprehensible. I paid good money for those books so the only reason for me to dump them is if I no longer find any value in them.
Similarly, if you find something in a used bookstore you like, you're not giving SJG a dime if you buy it there.
My objection is his turning future sales into material cooperation with evil. Past sales were not and so don't need to be regarded as intrinsically evil.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 13, 2022, 10:18:21 AM
I will politely add my voice to those asking for clemency for Pat, as well.
I will too, because of his generally informative posts and because he was bated by a troll I fully contend was a Big Purple plant (and thumbing his nose with his icon).
I will note however, that while "I was baited" is an explanation, it doesn't necessarily excuse the behavior. The rules were broken after a warning and so some type of punishment must be meted out or the rules means nothing. Anything beyond that is getting too far off-topic for my own tastes.
Never really understood burning or throwing out stuff you already paid for. I feel like generally the problem either wasn't in the product when you bought it or you were misinformed. In the former case why get rid of a functioning product when the company already got paid, and in the latter case the damage is done, and you might as well adapt it a bit to better suit your views if you can (like in the case of a TTRPG) or see if you can get at least something out of it before deciding it needs to be discarded.
Also, good point on used bookstores, and I guess also garage sales, eBay, etcetera. I hadn't really considered that there are legal ways to get decent products otherwise owned by people who hate you without supporting them or giving them money.
I'll vote to give Pat an eventual second chance if that's a thing we can do, especially since he multiple times tried to help me not infringe on the thing that got him banned, (not even just on the RPG.net thread) and is very arguably one of the best posters on this site. Not able to vote for Battlemaster, tho, cuz I don't see a very good argument for it or changed behavior, and he did admittedly mock or use demeaning language towards a lot of people even if it was at times in response or whatever. I'd give Pat very good odds that he is trying to change, though, given he genuinely seemed to care about helping me not do what he had been warned about, and I guess probably that should be brought up here and potentially count for something.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 13, 2022, 12:17:06 PM
Just because the author now is being a moron doesn't mean you should have to throw away pre-moron material you already have.
Agreed, and besides Steve Jackson already got his money. Throwing away stuff doesn't hurt SJG, it hurts the person who bought it.
Just like it was silly when fans of the Dixie Chicks had a problem with their stance on Bush and burned their stuff. Didn't hurt the Dixie chicks cause they already had their money. And when their temper tantrum was over, they spend money rebuying their stuff. Dixie chicks 1, Fans 0.
Sorry to have to use politics a little in my example as I really try to avoid politics altogether. But the example worked in this instance.
Though, selling off the offending product might take sales away from the offender. GURPS Martial Arts 4e goes for a lot these days.
Quote from: David Johansen on July 13, 2022, 01:49:01 PM
Though, selling off the offending product might take sales away from the offender. GURPS Martial Arts 4e goes for a lot these days.
Yeah, you are right. I mean if you really want to get games from offenders out of your collection sell them. You will recover some of the money and as you pointed out take possible sales from the offender.
GURPS still has the largest diversity of campaign settings. Including licensed settings like Alpha Centauri, War Against the Chtorr, and more!
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 13, 2022, 12:17:06 PM
Quote from: shihansmurf on July 13, 2022, 10:50:00 AM
Now no GURPS for me.
Just because the author now is being a moron doesn't mean you should have to throw away pre-moron material you already have. I'm not pitching my collection of classic Disney films I bought decades ago because they're now releasing nothing but shit sandwiches.
Nor am I going to pitch my 3e D&D or GURPS material just because the proceeds of new sales will be going to something I consider reprehensible. I paid good money for those books so the only reason for me to dump them is if I no longer find any value in them.
Similarly, if you find something in a used bookstore you like, you're not giving SJG a dime if you buy it there.
My objection is his turning future sales into material cooperation with evil. Past sales were not and so don't need to be regarded as intrinsically evil.
I type like an idiot at times.
I meant to type "No new GURPS for me"
Anything I still want to acquire I will do so on the secondary market.
I try to separate the art from the artist, but this is a bridge too far.
Mark
I struggle with the idea that not buying something from people who are ideologically opposed is some kind of moral act. If a SJG product is fairly priced, then it's a zero sum exchange. You trade money for a game. It's not a donation. If you feel morally compromised being an SJG customer, then SJ has an equal and opposite moral compromise on his side. Would it not piss him off that pro-lifers buy his games? Does that not compromise the very public position he's taken? His side will say "Hey Steve, your post is all well and good but you're still taking money from all the pro-lifers buying your shit."
I get that it feels wrong paying someone you disagree with. But they must equally feel wrong giving you the product in exchange.
Just musing here. I have not decided for myself what is right, but it's come up a lot lately with people moving to the red list, Goodman Games being an example.
Also adding my voice to clemency for Pat.
Quote from: rytrasmi on July 13, 2022, 03:10:01 PM
I struggle with the idea that not buying something from people who are ideologically opposed is some kind of moral act. If a SJG product is fairly priced, then it's a zero sum exchange.
Until he says, "I'm going to take the profits and donate them to a woke pro-abortion organization named after a demon who murders infants."
Then my religion calls making that purchase "material cooperation with evil" as you are buying a non-necessity knowing that the profits of the sale are going to be used to fund something against your religious beliefs.
Which is why this SJG thing is such a bone-headed move. He took what WAS a morally neutral act and made it into one that requires one segment of his customer base to knowingly violate their morals if they wish to buy his product... FOR NO REASON. No one was clamoring for him to take a stand on the issue, but he did it anyway to virtue signal to the Woke that he is down for their struggle to destroy Western Civilization.
I'm going to throw out there again that he may have done it fully knowing the "get woke, go broke" mantra because his business is already nearly broke and this at least gives some type of cover that isn't "I ran my company into the ground through bad business decisions." Instead he will be able to claim that it is all the "Istaphobes" fault when his debts come due.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 13, 2022, 03:49:50 PM
Then my religion calls making that purchase "material cooperation with evil" as you are buying a non-necessity knowing that the profits of the sale are going to be used to fund something against your religious beliefs.
Okay. I get that. But it boils down to "knowing"? That does not sit well with me. The "knowing" requirement seems to reward ignorance. If SJG kept his opinion and donation private is it still material cooperation with evil? I guarantee the vast majority of pro-life gamers don't read the SJG blog and are ignorant of his views. Are they morally in the clear?
This is an open question, not just for you and your beliefs. I personally avoid buying anything made in the non-free world to the extent possible. But, I have to rely on knowing in the form of the "Made In ____." declaration and that is grey and often abused.
PAT IS A DORK! But he's our dork and needs clemency.
However, I'm also against 99% of bans. I'd bring BattleButtMaster back too, especially because that freak of the week was unintentionally hysterical. We're better off letting marxist bitches make their idiot noise to liven up the forums.
As for Moloch Jackson, all the fans of baby butchery are free to give SJG all their money.
I'll be voting with my wallet elsewhere.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 13, 2022, 12:17:06 PM
Quote from: shihansmurf on July 13, 2022, 10:50:00 AM
Now no GURPS for me.
Just because the author now is being a moron doesn't mean you should have to throw away pre-moron material you already have. I'm not pitching my collection of classic Disney films I bought decades ago because they're now releasing nothing but shit sandwiches.
Nor am I going to pitch my 3e D&D or GURPS material just because the proceeds of new sales will be going to something I consider reprehensible. I paid good money for those books so the only reason for me to dump them is if I no longer find any value in them.
Similarly, if you find something in a used bookstore you like, you're not giving SJG a dime if you buy it there.
My objection is his turning future sales into material cooperation with evil. Past sales were not and so don't need to be regarded as intrinsically evil.
I agree that throwing out your GURPS books is complete overkill. Jackson and SJG legitimately created some great gaming stuff over the decades, and that should be acknowledged. Keep your GURPS books.
That said, I won't reward him or his company with any
future money.....because his current actions and statements horribly violate my moral and religious beliefs, to such a point that I would feel like I was contributing to evil if I gave him money now.....just so that I could play "elf games". Everyone has a threshold, everyone has a limit. Steve Jackson breached mine, and I guess that's it.
WANNA REPLACE GURPS (lite) FANTASY?
http://www.stargazergames.eu/warrior-rogue-mage/ (http://www.stargazergames.eu/warrior-rogue-mage/)
Warrior, Rogue & Mage (for me) is everything kewl from GURPS Fantasy without the mountains of crunch I never enjoyed from GURPS.
Fans of GURPS lite & Fantasy RPGs will probably enjoy W,R&M (often called Wyrm by fans) and I can confirm it runs great at the table and there's PLENTY of bips and bobs to customize your campaign and characters. Not to the Nth degree like GURPS, but more than enough to run a kewl campaign of kewlness.
And it's free. With lots of supplements. Which are also free.
However, I know NOTHING about the author's politics...and hope to never know.
Quote from: rytrasmi on July 13, 2022, 04:05:36 PMBut it boils down to "knowing"? That does not sit well with me. The "knowing" requirement seems to reward ignorance.
Think of it instead as proper assignation of responsibility. I can't be responsible for anything I'm not sufficiently informed about to be able to make an enlightened decision, so long as the information I'd need to meet my responsibilities isn't something I can reasonably acquire for myself or am not legally obliged to ensure I know.
As a parallel, one of the legal requirements for being charged as an accessory to a crime is that you have to know the act you're assisting with is either criminal or in protection of criminals. I can be convicted of being an accessory if I help my friend hide a body; I can't be convicted if there's a reasonable likelihood I had no idea that rolled-up carpet I helped him throw out contained a body. Conversely, reckless negligence doesn't require me to
know my workplace is unsafe; the crime is in my not having taken the time and effort to make sure, because the workplace is my responsibility. What a merchant does with the money I give him isn't my responsibility to learn or anything I'm entitled to know -- but once I
do know, after he freely announces it, it becomes my responsibility not to pretend I don't.
If Jackson assumed that he wouldn't lose any more customers by announcing where his money would go that he hadn't already lost by announcing his position, that's not unreasonable, but it's still wrong. If he assumed that he'd gain enough new customers who agreed with him to make up for the ones he lost, that seems considerably dodgier, but still believable. Chris24601's hypothesis that the financial writing is already on the wall for SJG and this is either a Hail Mary pass or a posterior-covering responsibility shift seems plausible, but I have to admit that I generally believe shortsightedness over 3D chess when it comes to explaining people's actions.
I also will chime in to plead for clemency for Pat.
Quote from: rytrasmi on July 13, 2022, 04:05:36 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 13, 2022, 03:49:50 PM
Then my religion calls making that purchase "material cooperation with evil" as you are buying a non-necessity knowing that the profits of the sale are going to be used to fund something against your religious beliefs.
Okay. I get that. But it boils down to "knowing"? That does not sit well with me. The "knowing" requirement seems to reward ignorance. If SJG kept his opinion and donation private is it still material cooperation with evil? I guarantee the vast majority of pro-life gamers don't read the SJG blog and are ignorant of his views. Are they morally in the clear?
This is an open question, not just for you and your beliefs. I personally avoid buying anything made in the non-free world to the extent possible. But, I have to rely on knowing in the form of the "Made In ____." declaration and that is grey and often abused.
Yes, they are morally in the clear. We can only make moral decisions based upon what we know, or at least....based upon what we think we know. If you KNEW that Steve Jackson Games was publicly and self-righteously donating to NAMBLA, would you still support them?
I wouldn't.
This isn't Steve Jackson quietly funding a private organization that we don't even know about. It's not even a case in which we discover that Jackson privately donated to an abortion group. This situation is Steve Jackson Games loudly and self-righteously making a press release that they will be donating money to an abortion fund named after a demon that kills babies. No subtlety there!
I guess the people who called this organization "Lilith" thought that none of the normies would notice any of the religious implications, or just not get the reference. They were wrong.
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 13, 2022, 10:32:49 AM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on July 13, 2022, 09:27:16 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 13, 2022, 06:14:44 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on July 13, 2022, 12:34:08 AM
Well, damn. Pat's one of the more insightful posters on the site. Though it's very clear he did break the rules, I'll miss his ideas.
he was often a good poster. The problem is he'd been warned before and kept taking the bait and breaking the rules.
Can Pat request to be unbanned after a time? A good Virtual Time Out can do people wonders.
Has there been any push back from DTRPG regarding SJG's screed?
I got into a bunch of nasty arguments with Pat a bunch times and certainly didn't get along with him all the time. But he was often better informed than most and contributed far more than Battlemaster ever did. So hoping he can return eventually. Battlemaster was just an idiot, and as much as this forum could use oppositional voices who don't hold the same political views as like 80%+ of the rest of the boards his points were just asinine and wrong, and irrelevant to what was being said like 90% of the time.
Put me down for another one on the unban Pat petition.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 13, 2022, 04:41:16 PM
Chris24601's hypothesis that the financial writing is already on the wall for SJG and this is either a Hail Mary pass or a posterior-covering responsibility shift seems plausible, but I have to admit that I generally believe shortsightedness over 3D chess when it comes to explaining people's actions.
Oh, I'm NOT arguing 3D chess by any means. I'm not even convinced that angle is even right, just that its a possibility.
My actual thinking is more along the lines of the "posterior-covering responsibility shift" if anything like that theory is correct.
"Oh Crap! The company's going under. What can I do to not get blamed for it? I know... I'll 'Get Woke' because everyone knows 'Go Broke' follows and then blame it on all the istophobes who hatefully refused to buy the products that already weren't selling enough to pay the bills. If I'm really lucky some Wokist or another might throw a lifeline to their fellow traveler."
Basically, the failure has already happened and this is just a scramble to keep it from being "why did Steve invest all the company's money into [dodgy business venture] and not [20/20 hindsight better business venture]?"
I give that a roughly 30% chance with the other 70% being that he's a libertarian who's baked his brain too long in the Texas heat (and who knows what else) and is no longer able to keep the quiet parts silent in his rants.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on July 13, 2022, 09:27:16 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 13, 2022, 06:14:44 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on July 13, 2022, 12:34:08 AM
Well, damn. Pat's one of the more insightful posters on the site. Though it's very clear he did break the rules, I'll miss his ideas.
he was often a good poster. The problem is he'd been warned before and kept taking the bait and breaking the rules.
Can Pat request to be unbanned after a time? A good Virtual Time Out can do people wonders.
I would need to be seriously convinced that he would be capable of controlling himself in RPG forum threads and not deviating off-topic.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 13, 2022, 05:26:56 PM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on July 13, 2022, 09:27:16 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 13, 2022, 06:14:44 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on July 13, 2022, 12:34:08 AM
Well, damn. Pat's one of the more insightful posters on the site. Though it's very clear he did break the rules, I'll miss his ideas.
he was often a good poster. The problem is he'd been warned before and kept taking the bait and breaking the rules.
Can Pat request to be unbanned after a time? A good Virtual Time Out can do people wonders.
I would need to be seriously convinced that he would be capable of controlling himself in RPG forum threads and not deviating off-topic.
Well, I don't know how much this counts for, (or if there should be a separate thread for this) but I can point to several instances, some within the same thread, where I and the folks I was arguing with were brought back on track by Pat. I also know he criticized Battlemaster in a kickstarter thread for bringing unrelated politics into play and tried to kill that discussion, separate from me. I also did a search and saw some similar interactions between him and other folks, like one in April where he suggested in a Mongoose Publishing thread that an unrelated topic would be better positioned as another thread in your political subforum. I do think he was working on it, therefore, and cared about your concerns in principle. Plus, while he did admittedly take the bait here, I think it shows that sometimes he actively prevents thread derailment.
Also, much though it pains me to say it, without Battlemaster in play he's probably a little less likely to have bait he's as likely to take.
Most importantly, I'll bet that given how much he seems to care about this site and the integrity of discussions on it, he probably will take serious note of the fact that he was almost permabanned. I know I would. I would therefore totally believe that he's likely to be more careful in that arena.
Dunno how convincing this will be, and I'm not exactly an integral member of this community or completely knowledgeable in this area given how new I am, but I felt I owed it to him and to the site to try. Thank you for being willing to hear arguments, too, since I know you didn't have to.
Some people were talking about throwing out their SJG games. Don't do that. You paid for them. He has some fun games. Just don't buy any new ones. If you must get rid of them, sell them on eBay, and donate proceeds to Project Rachel, which counsels women hurt by abortion (that will enrage SJ, seeing his games go to help women), or a charity you support.
I think that this forum is a better, more enjoyable place with Pat as a member than without him. The level of conversation is certainly elevated with him around.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 13, 2022, 09:24:04 PM
I think that this forum is a better, more enjoyable place with Pat as a member than without him. The level of conversation is certainly elevated with him around.
Agreed. I didn't always agree with him, but I appreciated his contributions to the site.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 13, 2022, 08:17:14 PM
Some people were talking about throwing out their SJG games. Don't do that. You paid for them. He has some fun games. Just don't buy any new ones. If you must get rid of them, sell them on eBay, and donate proceeds to Project Rachel, which counsels women hurt by abortion (that will enrage SJ, seeing his games go to help women), or a charity you support.
Agreed. SJG retroactively infecting all their stuff with lilith cooties is a really dumb mind perspective. Something good (if you at least liked it at the time) doesn't become bad retroactively based on modern takes.
Thats a lesson we MUST takeaway from twitter.
If Pat is to return he must be required to rename himself "Buttery Pat." I have spoken.
Anyhow, the thing about your GURPS books is that SJG has no intention of reprinting most of them and only sells them on Amazon. So, I'm not so sure he really cares about your GURPS dollars.
And I'm afraid Munchkin is in mass market chains and it's a small minority of players and collectors who pay attention to what the company does or says. I think his retirement revenue is safe.
Quote from: Reckall on July 08, 2022, 07:46:45 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 07:35:03 AM
Damn! I always had evil Stevie pegged as a solid conservative. Maybe I misjudged him. Gotta check this out. Thanks, cr!
Maybe he is but not on this matter.
Speaking for me, I use to have my opinions on a score of topics. You could say that most of them fall within a certain political spectrum but some extremely don't. I don't like for an external complex of ideologies to dictate how I must think, which is why I never entered politics.
Maybe he's just trying to get his ESG score up.
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on July 13, 2022, 04:45:32 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on July 13, 2022, 04:05:36 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 13, 2022, 03:49:50 PM
Then my religion calls making that purchase "material cooperation with evil" as you are buying a non-necessity knowing that the profits of the sale are going to be used to fund something against your religious beliefs.
Okay. I get that. But it boils down to "knowing"? That does not sit well with me. The "knowing" requirement seems to reward ignorance. If SJG kept his opinion and donation private is it still material cooperation with evil? I guarantee the vast majority of pro-life gamers don't read the SJG blog and are ignorant of his views. Are they morally in the clear?
This is an open question, not just for you and your beliefs. I personally avoid buying anything made in the non-free world to the extent possible. But, I have to rely on knowing in the form of the "Made In ____." declaration and that is grey and often abused.
Yes, they are morally in the clear. We can only make moral decisions based upon what we know, or at least....based upon what we think we know. If you KNEW that Steve Jackson Games was publicly and self-righteously donating to NAMBLA, would you still support them?
I wouldn't.
This isn't Steve Jackson quietly funding a private organization that we don't even know about. It's not even a case in which we discover that Jackson privately donated to an abortion group. This situation is Steve Jackson Games loudly and self-righteously making a press release that they will be donating money to an abortion fund named after a demon that kills babies. No subtlety there!
I guess the people who called this organization "Lilith" thought that none of the normies would notice any of the religious implications, or just not get the reference. They were wrong.
I think the real salient point is that it's not the executives or owners or whatever of a company donating to some cause or another. It's them standing on the digital mountaintop, proclaiming, "This is what our company stands for." I might be remembering incorrectly, but I don't think Chick-fil-A ever said, "Our company policy is to oppose gay marriage," but rather that the owners of the company just donated money to causes they believed in.
The Lilith thing just comes off as cringe new age LARPing to me, like most "witchy" things.
Quote from: Innocent Smith on July 14, 2022, 01:02:54 AM
Quote from: Reckall on July 08, 2022, 07:46:45 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 07:35:03 AM
Damn! I always had evil Stevie pegged as a solid conservative. Maybe I misjudged him. Gotta check this out. Thanks, cr!
Maybe he is but not on this matter.
Speaking for me, I use to have my opinions on a score of topics. You could say that most of them fall within a certain political spectrum but some extremely don't. I don't like for an external complex of ideologies to dictate how I must think, which is why I never entered politics.
Maybe he's just trying to get his ESG score up.
I never pictured him as a Lyran.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 14, 2022, 08:29:21 AM
Quote from: Innocent Smith on July 14, 2022, 01:02:54 AM
Quote from: Reckall on July 08, 2022, 07:46:45 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 07:35:03 AM
Damn! I always had evil Stevie pegged as a solid conservative. Maybe I misjudged him. Gotta check this out. Thanks, cr!
Maybe he is but not on this matter.
Speaking for me, I use to have my opinions on a score of topics. You could say that most of them fall within a certain political spectrum but some extremely don't. I don't like for an external complex of ideologies to dictate how I must think, which is why I never entered politics.
Maybe he's just trying to get his ESG score up.
I never pictured him as a Lyran.
I get that refference! Although why you'd want an ESG instead of like.. some disruptors, or the very fun to fire Plasma-R torpedoes I will never know.
Quote from: Innocent Smith on July 14, 2022, 01:13:00 AM
I think the real salient point is that it's not the executives or owners or whatever of a company donating to some cause or another. It's them standing on the digital mountaintop, proclaiming, "This is what our company stands for." I might be remembering incorrectly, but I don't think Chick-fil-A ever said, "Our company policy is to oppose gay marriage," but rather that the owners of the company just donated money to causes they believed in.
I think you're remembering incorrectly. Chick-fil-A's CEO has made a number of public statements about gay marriage in the past, such as here:
QuoteAppearing on "The Ken Coleman Show," Cathy spoke of his company's pride in its socially conservative character, but then offered an assessment of same-sex marriage that might lose the popular fast food chain a few customers.
I think we are inviting God's judgment on our nation when we shake our fist at him and say, 'We know better than you as to what constitutes a marriage,'" said Cathy.
"I pray God's mercy on our generation that has such a prideful, arrogant attitude to think that we would have the audacity to try to redefine what marriage is all about," he added.
https://dailycaller.com/2012/07/18/chick-fil-a-president-gay-marriage-is-inviting-gods-judgment-on-our-nation-audio/
That said, I don't think it's wrong for companies to have public opinions. I think it's fine for there to be a Christian restaurant or a Jewish coffeeshop or a Wiccan bookstore or similar. That said, it's also fine to boycott companies whose values one disagrees with enough.
Quote from: Banjo Destructo on July 14, 2022, 11:44:11 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 14, 2022, 08:29:21 AM
Quote from: Innocent Smith on July 14, 2022, 01:02:54 AM
Quote from: Reckall on July 08, 2022, 07:46:45 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 07:35:03 AM
Damn! I always had evil Stevie pegged as a solid conservative. Maybe I misjudged him. Gotta check this out. Thanks, cr!
Maybe he is but not on this matter.
Speaking for me, I use to have my opinions on a score of topics. You could say that most of them fall within a certain political spectrum but some extremely don't. I don't like for an external complex of ideologies to dictate how I must think, which is why I never entered politics.
Maybe he's just trying to get his ESG score up.
I never pictured him as a Lyran.
I get that refference! Although why you'd want an ESG instead of like.. some disruptors, or the very fun to fire Plasma-R torpedoes I will never know.
Because in a game with no ramming rules, someone will still want to ram your ship.
Quote from: jhkim on July 14, 2022, 01:38:36 PM
Quote from: Innocent Smith on July 14, 2022, 01:13:00 AM
I think the real salient point is that it's not the executives or owners or whatever of a company donating to some cause or another. It's them standing on the digital mountaintop, proclaiming, "This is what our company stands for." I might be remembering incorrectly, but I don't think Chick-fil-A ever said, "Our company policy is to oppose gay marriage," but rather that the owners of the company just donated money to causes they believed in.
I think you're remembering incorrectly. Chick-fil-A's CEO has made a number of public statements about gay marriage in the past, such as here:
QuoteAppearing on "The Ken Coleman Show," Cathy spoke of his company's pride in its socially conservative character, but then offered an assessment of same-sex marriage that might lose the popular fast food chain a few customers.
I think we are inviting God's judgment on our nation when we shake our fist at him and say, 'We know better than you as to what constitutes a marriage,'" said Cathy.
"I pray God's mercy on our generation that has such a prideful, arrogant attitude to think that we would have the audacity to try to redefine what marriage is all about," he added.
https://dailycaller.com/2012/07/18/chick-fil-a-president-gay-marriage-is-inviting-gods-judgment-on-our-nation-audio/
That said, I don't think it's wrong for companies to have public opinions. I think it's fine for there to be a Christian restaurant or a Jewish coffeeshop or a Wiccan bookstore or similar. That said, it's also fine to boycott companies whose values one disagrees with enough.
Truett Cathy has been dead since 2014 though.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 09, 2022, 03:29:12 PM
All understood. My objection isn't with SJWG's absurd positions. It's the part where he said that he'd donate his profits to the Lilith Fund. That's the reason I will no longer buy his products.
Well, I suppose there's a silver lining.
With the expected drop in revenue, after SJG covers overhead costs, etc., there may not be any "profits" for him to donate.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 13, 2022, 09:24:04 PM
I think that this forum is a better, more enjoyable place with Pat as a member than without him. The level of conversation is certainly elevated with him around.
Agreed. I hope Pat can come back.
As for SJG, I've never played the actual GURPS game but I have several of their books because they're excellent for source material to borrow and adapt to other games. There are just many darn GURPS source books about somewhat obscure but cool topics. And I am just not going to stop buying those when it comes up because SJG says something I disagree with. That said, I don't think SJG puts out anything new these days that I am much interested in.
Quote from: Mistwell on July 15, 2022, 01:13:31 AM
As for SJG, I've never played the actual GURPS game but I have several of their books because they're excellent for source material to borrow and adapt to other games. There are just many darn GURPS source books about somewhat obscure but cool topics. And I am just not going to stop buying those when it comes up because SJG says something I disagree with. That said, I don't think SJG puts out anything new these days that I am much interested in.
There's always the used book market for those that don't want to directly support SJG but still want them some GURPS. That said, I think the issue is not necessarily giving money to a company that espouses certain politics, but the fact that they said they would use company profits to actively fund such practices. That's turning their customers into tacit supporters of the cause.
I mean, it's his company, he can do what he wants. I'm not going to say it's ethically bankrupt or something stupid like that, but it is a poor business decision.
If you want to play GURPS but not support SJG, just pirate their stuff. There's a torrent floating around that has both 3E and 4e available. If it's not against site rules, I'll post it.
Anyway, also, GURPS is shit and if you want a better generic system, go play FFG's Genesys instead.
Quote from: Innocent Smith on July 14, 2022, 01:13:00 AM
I think the real salient point is that it's not the executives or owners or whatever of a company donating to some cause or another. It's them standing on the digital mountaintop, proclaiming, "This is what our company stands for." I might be remembering incorrectly, but I don't think Chick-fil-A ever said, "Our company policy is to oppose gay marriage," but rather that the owners of the company just donated money to causes they believed in.
The Lilith thing just comes off as cringe new age LARPing to me, like most "witchy" things.
Totally, you nailed it. And even if the company owners do have that opinion personally, that's still a vastly different than announcing it publicly as company policy. In Chick-fil-A's case, the owners were
asked their opinion, with the express purpose of making a fuss about it. Steve Jackson on the other hand went out of his way to initiate the conversation, and associate his personal opinion with his company and product.
Quote from: Zalman on July 15, 2022, 08:03:50 AM
Quote from: Innocent Smith on July 14, 2022, 01:13:00 AM
I think the real salient point is that it's not the executives or owners or whatever of a company donating to some cause or another. It's them standing on the digital mountaintop, proclaiming, "This is what our company stands for." I might be remembering incorrectly, but I don't think Chick-fil-A ever said, "Our company policy is to oppose gay marriage," but rather that the owners of the company just donated money to causes they believed in.
The Lilith thing just comes off as cringe new age LARPing to me, like most "witchy" things.
Totally, you nailed it. And even if the company owners do have that opinion personally, that's still a vastly different than announcing it publicly as company policy. In Chick-fil-A's case, the owners were asked their opinion, with the express purpose of making a fuss about it. Steve Jackson on the other hand went out of his way to initiate the conversation, and associate his personal opinion with his company and product.
Yeah the Chik fil A thing was a big fishing expedition (like it is a grand mystery that a company that LOSES hundreds of millions of dollars to be closed on Sunday would cling to some basic, fundamental christian values.....) and when the media tried to black ball them it blew up in their face in the most hysterical way possible (literally looked like the scene of a concert inside and around every chik fil a with all the people packing into the stores). So maybe....this will give SJG a massive boost? Or perhaps the mass appeal to what he makes rants about just is not there?
The difference is that Gurps is not something that people like like their meals. One does not need it to survive. People like their specific favourite foods.
SJG might get a few more sales yet even then if they did not have Munchkin to beef up their sales they would be in the same financial position as Hero Games.
I will also plead on clemency on behalf of Pat, yet won't blame Pundit if he maintains the ban.
Both were given permanent ban warnings both chose to ignore the warning. So they have no one to blame but themselves for being banned.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 15, 2022, 08:45:55 AM
So maybe....this will give SJG a massive boost? Or perhaps the mass appeal to what he makes rants about just is not there?
I think it's less that the appeal is not there -- the RPG hobby market base is probably generally more in agreement with SJG on the topic than not -- but more that it seems unlikely to bring in customers they don't already have; and as I've already said, it strikes me as
very unlikely to bring in enough business to make up for what they'll lose, even if that's not all that much. RPGs are just not a large enough hobby base that deliberately fracturing your audience seems like a good business strategy, to me.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 15, 2022, 11:37:15 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on July 15, 2022, 08:45:55 AM
So maybe....this will give SJG a massive boost? Or perhaps the mass appeal to what he makes rants about just is not there?
I think it's less that the appeal is not there -- the RPG hobby market base is probably generally more in agreement with SJG on the topic than not -- but more that it seems unlikely to bring in customers they don't already have; and as I've already said, it strikes me as very unlikely to bring in enough business to make up for what they'll lose, even if that's not all that much. RPGs are just not a large enough hobby base that deliberately fracturing your audience seems like a good business strategy, to me.
I dunno, maybe they're hoping that the MASSIVE influx of "people" into the hobby from 5e will cause some people to switch to different systems. Then they can show off their virtue signaling and be like "Look at how nice we are, try our game."
Quote from: drayakir on July 15, 2022, 12:35:39 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 15, 2022, 11:37:15 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on July 15, 2022, 08:45:55 AM
So maybe....this will give SJG a massive boost? Or perhaps the mass appeal to what he makes rants about just is not there?
I think it's less that the appeal is not there -- the RPG hobby market base is probably generally more in agreement with SJG on the topic than not -- but more that it seems unlikely to bring in customers they don't already have; and as I've already said, it strikes me as very unlikely to bring in enough business to make up for what they'll lose, even if that's not all that much. RPGs are just not a large enough hobby base that deliberately fracturing your audience seems like a good business strategy, to me.
I dunno, maybe they're hoping that the MASSIVE influx of "people" into the hobby from 5e will cause some people to switch to different systems. Then they can show off their virtue signaling and be like "Look at how nice we are, try our game."
Why are you scare-quoting the word people?
Quote from: drayakir on July 15, 2022, 07:53:34 AM
If you want to play GURPS but not support SJG, just pirate their stuff. There's a torrent floating around that has both 3E and 4e available. If it's not against site rules, I'll post it.
Anyway, also, GURPS is shit and if you want a better generic system, go play FFG's Genesys instead.
Sharing information or links to filesharing sites is against site rules because of the legal implications. So don't do that or you'll be banned.
Because I've seen gatekeeping fail before, on Eternal September, and when Hot Topic opened, and am seeing it now with RPGs. They're not people, they're mops.
As someone who is often assumed to be 'Conservative'(I'm not) - this announcement or post by Steve Jackson himself does not bother me at all.
I will keep buying SJG products and games...and I will keep reffing GURPS.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar on July 15, 2022, 09:17:28 PM
As someone who is often assumed to be 'Conservative'(I'm not) - this announcement or post by Steve Jackson himself does not bother me at all.
I will keep buying SJG products and games...and I will keep reffing GURPS.
- Ed C.
Well, you are not conservative, so why would his statement bother you? I have no issue with anyone who wants his stuff (I have almost all of it already) or does not after his soapbox ranting. It just seems sort of why bother to say you are not conservative and the statement does not bother you. I was NOT conservative in 2000, but not changing any views for the most part has now made me rabidly conservative in 2022, so I think that tag is extremely relative to surroundings and times.
Quote from: drayakir on July 15, 2022, 07:53:34 AM
If you want to play GURPS but not support SJG, just pirate their stuff. There's a torrent floating around that has both 3E and 4e available. If it's not against site rules, I'll post it.
Don't pirate SJG games. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 10, 2022, 10:55:54 AM
Is anyone talking about this anywhere else? I'm not seeing it discussed over on TBP, but they may be hiding the celebration in Tangency.
It's taken a week, but someone is trying to rally the hordes to the SJG banner ... https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/ (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/)
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 16, 2022, 03:36:37 PM
Quote from: drayakir on July 15, 2022, 07:53:34 AM
If you want to play GURPS but not support SJG, just pirate their stuff. There's a torrent floating around that has both 3E and 4e available. If it's not against site rules, I'll post it.
Don't pirate SJG games. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Fuck that noise! SJG is setting out to use their funds to kill. If their income is used as their weapon, we must strike at their weapon.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 18, 2022, 11:53:00 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 10, 2022, 10:55:54 AM
Is anyone talking about this anywhere else? I'm not seeing it discussed over on TBP, but they may be hiding the celebration in Tangency.
It's taken a week, but someone is trying to rally the hordes to the SJG banner ... https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/ (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/)
Cause SJG just kicked off their newest Kickstarter campaign
If your going to come out with a controversial position on a somewhat controversial subject, why not do the smart thing and do it after the latest Kickstarter is funded.
But no fo it right before. SJG as a company really does not come off as very smart sometimes.
Quote from: Fergurg on July 18, 2022, 12:00:09 PM
If their income is used as their weapon, we must strike at their weapon.
I agree. But the correct way to do that is by not buying their products, not by stealing them.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 18, 2022, 01:28:30 PM
Quote from: Fergurg on July 18, 2022, 12:00:09 PM
If their income is used as their weapon, we must strike at their weapon.
I agree. But the correct way to do that is by not buying their products, not by stealing them.
I don't just want them to not have more weapons. I want them to have less. I want SJG to realize that they declared war on us and that there are consequences.
The leftists are fighting a war of extinction. If we lose, we are gone. Do not be so gullible as to think that they will be satisfied with anything less. TBP is already planning to counter our boycotts; I desire to make the losses bigger than boycotts.
Any tool not used is a gift to the enemy.
Quote from: Fergurg on July 18, 2022, 01:52:04 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 18, 2022, 01:28:30 PM
Quote from: Fergurg on July 18, 2022, 12:00:09 PM
If their income is used as their weapon, we must strike at their weapon.
I agree. But the correct way to do that is by not buying their products, not by stealing them.
I don't just want them to not have more weapons. I want them to have less. I want SJG to realize that they declared war on us and that there are consequences.
"Us?" They expressed an opinion which offended a percentage of their customers, not all of them. And piracy is still not the answer.
Quote
The leftists are fighting a war of extinction. If we lose, we are gone.
I honestly think that you need a pill.
Quote
Do not be so gullible as to think that they will be satisfied with anything less. TBP is already planning to counter our boycotts;
"Our?" You still somehow haven't realised that this site welcomes "all" opinions. This is not the opposite of TBP - or it would simply be a different flavour of TBP.
Quote
I desire to make the losses bigger than boycotts.
...While having the math all wrong. On TBP they decide to buy GURPS - possibly not buying something they like more. You don't buy GURPS. This is your answer.
If you pirate GURPS, your answer becomes bigger... how? You already haven't bought that book. If anything you show hypocrisy: you want to be militant but to eat your cake anyway. Sorry but would I admire more someone at TBP who buys GURPS with the money he had saved for something he actually plays.
There is a reason why piracy is never the answer - not at TBP and not here.
Quote from: Fergurg on July 18, 2022, 12:00:09 PM
If their income is used as their weapon, we must strike at their weapon.
I don't just want them to not have more weapons. I want them to have less.
Any tool not used is a gift to the enemy.
Pirating products to stand for or against some cause is no more than a sparkling virtue signal. You have done nothing to help your cause, and they have suffered nothing that would hinder theirs. They have the same amount of money as they did before and the same number of PDFs to sell to people who still like them.
Congratulations. Here is a No-Prize.
Quote from: Manic Modron on July 18, 2022, 06:11:34 PM
Quote from: Fergurg on July 18, 2022, 12:00:09 PM
If their income is used as their weapon, we must strike at their weapon.
I don't just want them to not have more weapons. I want them to have less.
Any tool not used is a gift to the enemy.
Pirating products to stand for or against some cause is no more than a sparkling virtue signal. You have done nothing to help your cause, and they have suffered nothing that would hinder theirs. They have the same amount of money as they did before and the same number of PDFs to sell to people who still like them.
Congratulations. Here is a No-Prize.
You are being too generous. It's a net negative for the thief, not the target. Because playing the stolen game is continuing to give it attention, which may result in future sales later. However hard or soft the "boycott" is in practice, a key point is that when you boycott, you don't get the thing. That's why the Boston Tea Party wasn't a bunch of white guys in red paint sitting on the dock of the bay, drinking tea.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on July 18, 2022, 06:23:53 PMYou are being too generous. It's a net negative for the thief, not the target. Because playing the stolen game is continuing to give it attention, which may result in future sales later. However hard or soft the "boycott" is in practice, a key point is that when you boycott, you don't get the thing. That's why the Boston Tea Party wasn't a bunch of white guys in red paint sitting on the dock of the bay, drinking tea.
Hold on a second, I'm just going to... hm... alright, click this and...
OH! Oh, yeah, I see that post now. Yeah, that is a dumb as hell way of trying to strike at anybody. That isn't action against, that is advertising.
I wouldn't worry too much about rpg.net suddenly realizing this happened a week later. They'll remember that they hate GURPS soon enough.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 18, 2022, 11:53:00 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 10, 2022, 10:55:54 AM
Is anyone talking about this anywhere else? I'm not seeing it discussed over on TBP, but they may be hiding the celebration in Tangency.
It's taken a week, but someone is trying to rally the hordes to the SJG banner ... https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/ (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/)
Even to the degree that this might send some money SJG's way look at the bright side: a bunch of TBP loons are wasting money on a game they don't like and will NEVER play or get anything useful out of just to try to "pwn" us for talking about it here (the OP makes allusions to this thread).
Knowing that I may have been instrumental in making a handful of idiots waste their money brings a certain degree of satisfaction to me.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 18, 2022, 01:28:30 PM
Quote from: Fergurg on July 18, 2022, 12:00:09 PM
If their income is used as their weapon, we must strike at their weapon.
I agree. But the correct way to do that is by not buying their products, not by stealing them.
Do not give money to people who hate you, this extends also into not promoting their stuff, which in the case of RPGs means not playing their stuff. So, why would I want to pirate their shit? And this comes from a Mexican, we're practically born with the black flag under an arm.
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 18, 2022, 08:59:44 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 18, 2022, 11:53:00 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 10, 2022, 10:55:54 AM
Is anyone talking about this anywhere else? I'm not seeing it discussed over on TBP, but they may be hiding the celebration in Tangency.
It's taken a week, but someone is trying to rally the hordes to the SJG banner ... https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/ (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/)
Even to the degree that this might send some money SJG's way look at the bright side: a bunch of TBP loons are wasting money on a game they don't like and will NEVER play or get anything useful out of just to try to "pwn" us for talking about it here (the OP makes allusions to this thread).
Knowing that I may have been instrumental in making a handful of idiots waste their money brings a certain degree of satisfaction to me.
They might need to think about saving that money for child support.
Talking about GURPS, a modern website design wouldn't hurt. I get the nostalgia, but the hobby remains fairly small compared to its digital counterpart. Hard to bring new players into the hobby when you're sporting a design from the early 2000s.
Funny how SJG's Illuminati card game would have gotten them politically crucified for endorsing the likes of #QAnon and Alex Jones had it been released in current year. How times have changed.
QuoteI'm worried. I mean, personally worried.
How worried is he?
QuoteAnd, because we are who we are, we're doing a T-shirt. Like the Ukraine shirt, it will be sold as a POD. All proceeds will go to the Lilith Fund. The shirt will feature Flower – she's our female face! – but it will not have Munchkin branding or a game rule. Details, like "how to buy it," will follow.
So worried he's making the t-shirt POD and doesn't want his most successful brand associated with it.
If anyone's curious, here's the design (https://archive.ph/GxdrN#selection-581.0-600.0), and the #Tweet from SJG defending it (https://archive.ph/GxdrN#selection-1731.0-1731.19), which shows just how clueless he is about how these things work in reality.
No wonder he wants to avoid associating the Munchkin name with it.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2022, 09:15:57 AM
Quotea woman's choices
SJG said "woman" rather than "birthing person" or "uterus owner." Can't wait until the woke call them out for "transphobia."
Probably not this round as he's currently useful to the cause, but the minute he makes a wrong move you better believe this will suddenly become relevant.
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 08, 2022, 09:54:16 AM
Quote from: S'mon on July 08, 2022, 06:21:58 AM
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children. (Link to the "charity" http://www.lilithfund.org )
Lilith fund?! ??? ROTFLMAO! They should have just called it the Moloch fund.
Seriously, when I saw that I was like "Jesus, fuck! Could you be a little less on the nose about it than naming your fund after a demon who steals and kills babies?"
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 12, 2022, 09:25:08 AM
when Lilith is based on an earlier Mesopotamian demon (Lilitu) who was also a baby killing demon, so her status as a killer of babies goes way back to the dawn of civilization.
They just started saying it publicly in front of cameras (https://youtu.be/DXprqpEAk0c).
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 08, 2022, 10:41:52 AM
And given the tragic lack of active traditional religious folks in the hobby gaming scene these days, I can imagine them concluding that this wouldn't cost them many customers.
Now
this is an interesting tangent for later.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 12, 2022, 05:49:21 AM
I look forward to the lefties "taking back" the titles of Satan and Asmodeus for their next names of their "freedom and social justice" organizations.
We did that awhile back 😉
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 18, 2022, 11:53:00 AM
It's taken a week, but someone is trying to rally the hordes to the SJG banner ... https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/ (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/)
An actual dialog:
QuoteI would not put it past the texas government to suddenly pass a law specifically aimed at SJG.
QuoteWhat leads you to believe the Texas government would pass a law specifically targetting SJG?
QuoteThe Florida state government attack on Disneyland.
The 'attack' in question is a bill which abolishes
all special districts like Disney
World, thereby preventing them from effectively operating as a sovereign nation. So much for small government. And the idea any State can or would take similar actions against an RPG company out of spite is the height of paranoia and hubris.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 13, 2022, 05:26:56 PM
I would need to be seriously convinced that he would be capable of controlling himself in RPG forum threads and not deviating off-topic.
If the many statements regarding Pat's value to this community hasn't convinced you to reduce the sentence, then nothing I say will. Then again this isn't a democracy, just another private fiefdom.
Quote from: KindaMeh on July 13, 2022, 07:26:19 PM
much though it pains me to say it, without Battlemaster in play he's probably a little less likely to have bait he's as likely to take.
I'm sure they'd be thrilled to find out their actions led to Pundit banning a significant member of the community. And if that was their intent, then Pundit played right into their hands.
I have not seen widespread use of Satan and the like as leftie icons, I have seen edgelords toss it about who are extremely fringe....but then again I remember when protests were "Pro Choice" and no that mask is off to just be pro abortion, so I could have missed where open endorsement of a demonic force that likes to lead humanity to ruin is some sort of figure of admiration to lefties.
SJG might have zero net effects on his business....which is still bad for GURPS, he could use some better marketing tools than losing his shit about the state he chose to live in his entire life (and it is not as if Texas JUST became some sort of conservative hive....)
This shit makes me legitimately angry. I like gurps, havnt found anything as flexible as gurps and now they've contracted terminal brain rot.
Quote from: Ocule on July 19, 2022, 10:13:29 AM
This shit makes me legitimately angry. I like gurps, havnt found anything as flexible as gurps and now they've contracted terminal brain rot.
It isn't that the text of the already published supplements now mutates and changes into something woke. I already have all I need if I want to run GURPS and I don't plan to run it anyway in the foreseeable future. If I will I'll have no problems.
And I don't fully agree with "running it = promoting it". True, you give the game more exposure but, once the players are warned about SJG's attitude it is up to their consciences if to buy it or not (should them like it). Some of them could flatly refuse to play it, putting me in the condition of choosing another system.
Quote from: Ocule on July 19, 2022, 10:13:29 AM
This shit makes me legitimately angry. I like gurps, havnt found anything as flexible as gurps and now they've contracted terminal brain rot.
Well, hopefully you were like me and had a shitload of their stuff already making buying anything else a non issue. Of course if you find yourself buying something anyway....well we shouldnt eat chocolate cake either, but it does taste good.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 18, 2022, 10:09:57 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 18, 2022, 01:28:30 PM
Quote from: Fergurg on July 18, 2022, 12:00:09 PM
If their income is used as their weapon, we must strike at their weapon.
I agree. But the correct way to do that is by not buying their products, not by stealing them.
Do not give money to people who hate you, this extends also into not promoting their stuff, which in the case of RPGs means not playing their stuff. So, why would I want to pirate their shit? And this comes from a Mexican, we're practically born with the black flag under an arm.
I find it odd that people who are so quick to call everything virtue signaling, are equally quick to exclaim those same people must hate you for disagreeing with the stuff that's being called virtue signaling. You're saying they don't actually believe the thing they're signaling, they just phone it in because they want to signal to others that they do. They so lack in passion about the topic that they have to fake it, but then they're so incredibly passionate about that same topic they work up hate for you for disagreeing?
I think the truth of the matter is they don't think much about you in general. Hate is way too much passion for them to be experiencing over you and your dissent. The entire statement is momentary and forgotten by them days later. You're not really important to them because they topic isn't really important to them. It's just a thing they do because they view it as helpful to accomplishing other real goals in their lives. Like making money, or dating, or ease of lifestyle, or whatever their goals are.
Nor will they meaningfully notice you not buying their stuff. An overwhelming majority of their consumers don't even know about any controversy. Of those who do know, an overwhelming majority of them won't change their buying habits over it. And among the tiny remainder from those, half will buy more and half will buy less and it will roughly even out. All of this is meaningless. The "Opinionated Gamer who is a real potential consumer for SJG and would actually change their buying habits over this" is a rounding error. This is all shouting into a void.
Quote from: Mistwell on July 19, 2022, 01:23:18 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 18, 2022, 10:09:57 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 18, 2022, 01:28:30 PM
Quote from: Fergurg on July 18, 2022, 12:00:09 PM
If their income is used as their weapon, we must strike at their weapon.
I agree. But the correct way to do that is by not buying their products, not by stealing them.
Do not give money to people who hate you, this extends also into not promoting their stuff, which in the case of RPGs means not playing their stuff. So, why would I want to pirate their shit? And this comes from a Mexican, we're practically born with the black flag under an arm.
I find it odd that people who are so quick to call everything virtue signaling, are equally quick to exclaim those same people must hate you for disagreeing with the stuff that's being called virtue signaling. You're saying they don't actually believe the thing they're signaling, they just phone it in because they want to signal to others that they do. They so lack in passion about the topic that they have to fake it, but then they're so incredibly passionate about that same topic they work up hate for you for disagreeing?
I think the truth of the matter is they don't think much about you in general. Hate is way too much passion for them to be experiencing over you and your dissent. The entire statement is momentary and forgotten by them days later. You're not really important to them because they topic isn't really important to them. It's just a thing they do because they view it as helpful to accomplishing other real goals in their lives. Like making money, or dating, or ease of lifestyle, or whatever their goals are.
Nor will they meaningfully notice you not buying their stuff. An overwhelming majority of their consumers don't even know about any controversy. Of those who do know, an overwhelming majority of them won't change their buying habits over it. And among the tiny remainder from those, half will buy more and half will buy less and it will roughly even out. All of this is meaningless. The "Opinionated Gamer who is a real potential consumer for SJG and would actually change their buying habits over this" is a rounding error. This is all shouting into a void.
So? I am not shouting, I am disappointed, and I wont be buying anything else. If SJG never notices I really do not care, I do not have any hate for people who push out bullshit where they proclaim a hateful stance towards me. I have indifference. If they die, do well, do average I just do not give a shit. But I also am not going to give them stuff. I learned a long time ago, indifference hurts people with lots of feels a shitload more than hate, and the upside is I suffer no consequence from just forgetting about them. You take a tone as if people deciding to boycott SJG are "becoming like the people they hate/dislike/disagree with" and I think you are in a way right. However all they are doing is realizing they are in fact in a fight, and if you are in a fight step one is to realize you are in a fight and fight back. People are simply fighting back and it seems to trigger folks when the people they use as a whipping boy decide the whippings have come to an end, and there might be a kick in the nuts incoming.
As for shouting into a void, hitting a heavy bag, running a few miles, lifting some weights, popping out text on a forum, or whatever a person does to blow off some steam....well better to blow it off than bottle it up. If it has absolute zero effect on anyone's bottom line....who cares? The person doing it generally feels better and stress is released. I would say if you let someone else get your blood pressure up, you need to reorient your life, but I do not think that is what is happening on this forum. I think Pat might be one of the few I have seen take forum discussion super serial, and I think that was both his strength and a weakness. IME Pat should be back on the forum.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 19, 2022, 01:55:32 PM
As for shouting into a void, hitting a heavy bag, running a few miles, lifting some weights, popping out text on a forum, or whatever a person does to blow off some steam....well better to blow it off than bottle it up. If it has absolute zero effect on anyone's bottom line....who cares? The person doing it generally feels better and stress is released. I would say if you let someone else get your blood pressure up, you need to reorient your life, but I do not think that is what is happening on this forum. I think Pat might be one of the few I have seen take forum discussion super serial, and I think that was both his strength and a weakness. IME Pat should be back on the forum.
Fair point. This IS the right place to express that disappointment, and those are good reasons for it.
[And yes Pat should be back, and I've been mulling a long post at some point about that topic. Because that's a topic I actually do care about. The guy might dislike me, but I get a lot out of my conversations with him, and the conversations he has with others.]
Quote from: oggsmash on July 19, 2022, 09:45:52 AM
I have not seen widespread use of Satan and the like as leftie icons
Saul Alinsky, violent radical leftist, dedicated his book
Rules for Radicals to Satan.
QuoteSo? I am not shouting, I am disappointed, and I wont be buying anything else. If SJG never notices I really do not care, I do not have any hate for people who push out bullshit where they proclaim a hateful stance towards me. I have indifference. If they die, do well, do average I just do not give a shit. But I also am not going to give them stuff. I learned a long time ago, indifference hurts people with lots of feels a shitload more than hate, and the upside is I suffer no consequence from just forgetting about them. You take a tone as if people deciding to boycott SJG are "becoming like the people they hate/dislike/disagree with" and I think you are in a way right. However all they are doing is realizing they are in fact in a fight, and if you are in a fight step one is to realize you are in a fight and fight back. People are simply fighting back and it seems to trigger folks when the people they use as a whipping boy decide the whippings have come to an end, and there might be a kick in the nuts incoming.
Exatly. I'm disgusted by SJG's attack on basic human rights. I won't support them. But that's my personal decision. Everyone has to make decisions like this for themselves. I'll inform others of SJG so they can make their own decision. I started this post so people can know what profits from your purchases pay for, and allow each individual to be able to make an informed choice. It's like how Jesus put his Word out ther, invited people to follow him, but left it up to each person to decide what to do.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 19, 2022, 06:08:47 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on July 19, 2022, 09:45:52 AM
I have not seen widespread use of Satan and the like as leftie icons
Saul Alinsky, violent radical leftist, dedicated his book Rules for Radicals to Satan.
I know, and that is not widespread.
This thread is starting to feel a little bit to political to be in the "RPG" section of the forum.
That is just my feeling or opinion.
People online and in this forum have often assumed me to be 'conservative' - but many of the posts I have read in this thread make me feel like a 'moderate' or middle of the road type.
- Ed C.
Who is or was "Agent Denton"? I noticed that he or she got banned over at the SJG forums and in one post explicitly referred to 'this' thread here by name.
Just wondering....
-Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar on July 19, 2022, 10:15:09 PM
This thread is starting to feel a little bit to political to be in the "RPG" section of the forum.
That is just my feeling or opinion.
People online and in this forum have often assumed me to be 'conservative' - but many of the posts I have read in this thread make me feel like a 'moderate' or middle of the road type.
Also, I am currently running a GURPS campaign that is set in the 'Star Trek' universe.
- Ed C.
Oh cool. What source books are you drawing on the most for that campaign?
Wow. It gets worse. I just saw "Illuminati Second Edition 2020" on Ebay. Not sure how I missed this, but I haven't seen anyone mention it here before. Mods: Although technically it relates to a card game (and not an RPG) it is published by Steve Jackson Games, and seems related to this thread. If not, feel free to move it to a more suitable location.
First, some background. Many of you grew up playing the original Illuminati card game in the 80's; or the collectible version, Illuminati: new World Order in the 90's. Both of those games were fun card games about conspiracies vying for world domination. They took an even-handed stance when it came to politics, mildly poking fun at both sides of the aisle. There were cards for both Bill Clinton and Al Gore, as well as Ronald Reagan and George Bush.
The new game looks like an expansion that mostly focuses on Covid. While I haven't seen the entirety of the new game—and if you have, please chime in—the cards I see on Ebay are woke and one-sided. Examples:
Black Lives Matter: No artwork. Text reads: "A turning point for society... this card counts as Special. When it is played, keep it on the table like an NWO, but nothing can remove it."
The Wise Doctor: Obviously Dr. Fauci.
USA #1 (in deaths): Probably meant to be Covid deaths (but according to Wikipedia, we're #21.)
Autonomous Zones: Artwork shows happy, diverse, peaceful people behind a barricade with a tent in the background. Alignment is fanatic and liberal, so this probably is meant to represent CHAZ/CHOP.
Mass Demonstrations: Artwork shows happy, diverse, peaceful people wearing masks. (Probably meant to be BLM/Antifa, but it is hard to tell since nothing is on fire.)
Covidiots: Artwork shows angry virus hoaxers. Three are wearing red caps, one is holding a sign about the Bill of Rights. Everyone in the artwork is white.
Pro-virus Rallies: Artwork shows angry people spreading the virus. Five people wearing red caps, everyone in the artwork is white.
That Guy: Although you can't see the figure's face, the orange skin, red tie, and small hands are obviously a thinly-veiled reference to Trump. The card's alignment is: conservative, criminal, and violent.
Statue Smashers: The only card I see ridiculing the Left, making fun of people who indiscriminately topple statues.
I saw this game as an auction on Ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/265035475759?hash=item3db5586b2f:g:3TAAAOSwTVxiVn0y&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4FlsUR9w4dTZC3X6ZU7zI8o3HFgqqNBQSxDWd3o6ywgPVhGZ1S0ZwNtVU7mTjzVpkXpoRbumfS2WdHPN1lbxI6SdnFOZ4t58IdySv3T02u3pxtJc70dLieDVhn5bz36HKXW%2FyXzl6Ei7bOcClmCgLWq9LQ505Sn%2BD19%2FOpd1FFk9nd%2FgfPhlPJp87Am3qAfD5N4n9WdIVCbKaF8Ag3Sx4TmmMpNjgBzX0uDExMQlck%2F0KG92OravTx9uny2LBCIBp9UrqfWe3t46WZle0JDAn0ErC%2F70%2B61ybaL8WXMezn%2F2%7Ctkp%3ABFBM0OqRncNg
Oddly enough, when I search for it on the SJG website, it gives a 404:
https://www.sjgames.com/ourgames/card.html
Quote from: Koltar on July 19, 2022, 10:15:09 PM
This thread is starting to feel a little bit to political to be in the "RPG" section of the forum.
That is just my feeling or opinion.
People online and in this forum have often assumed me to be 'conservative' - but many of the posts I have read in this thread make me feel like a 'moderate' or middle of the road type.
Also, I am currently running a GURPS campaign that is set in the 'Star Trek' universe.
- Ed C.
Luckily for you Star Trek has always been political.
Quote from: Shasarak on July 20, 2022, 02:25:38 AM
Luckily for you Star Trek has always been political.
(Edited or deleted....for good reasons)
- Ed C.
Quote"Helping someone affected by one of the mass shootings that the right, and the Court, seem to be fostering out of sheer vicious perversity."
According to SJG the political right is behind all mass shootings. All of 2020 somehow didn't register.
Quote from: Koltar on July 20, 2022, 08:25:15 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 20, 2022, 02:25:38 AM
Luckily for you Star Trek has always been political.
No, it really hasn't been or was not 'political'. It always takes place around 200 years or so into the future - so of course things have 'changed' - usually for the better.
That used to be called 'progressive' or 'future thinking', it wasn't political.
- Ed C.
Tell that to the wokies.
https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/fox-news-star-trek-woke-politics-wrong#:~:text=Star%20Trek%20has%20always%20been%20political%2C%20and%20conservatives%20might%20want,new%2C%20and%20therefore%2C%20wrong.
https://www.cultureslate.com/news/always-political-star-treks-lifelong-crusade-for-progress
https://www.looper.com/863925/times-when-star-trek-got-seriously-political/
https://gamerant.com/star-treks-original-series-science-fiction-political/
Quote from: Koltar on July 20, 2022, 08:25:15 AM
That used to be called 'progressive' or 'future thinking', it wasn't political.
That progressive has always been political is also what Steven Jackson games apparently doesn't understand (or pretend to understand, hard to tell the difference), and can also explain where the tone deafness comes from. So given the shared delusion, it would make sense why you are having a hard time understanding the response.
Quote from: Shasarak on July 20, 2022, 02:25:38 AM
Luckily for you Star Trek has always been political.
Please define the term 'political' in this context. :)
The ambiguity of the term is one of the reasons I prefer 'partisan', 'polemical', or 'heavy-handed' for elements in media that take me out of the setting or rub me the wrong way.
Quote from: Koltar on July 20, 2022, 08:25:15 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 20, 2022, 02:25:38 AM
Luckily for you Star Trek has always been political.
No, it really hasn't been or was not 'political'. It always takes place around 200 years or so into the future - so of course things have 'changed' - usually for the better.
That used to be called 'progressive' or 'future thinking', it wasn't political.
- Ed C.
Yes, it dealt with political themes, but it was neither preachy nor propaganda and it sure as fuck wasn't commie scum propaganda. It had the kind of progressivism only scumbags would disagree with, and it was pro freedom, even in TNG.
Noe progressives ARE the scum who is pro segregation, anti missegenation, anti freedom, and STD (aptly named show) is nothing but political propaganda for
"The Message! tm"
Quote from: Koltar on July 19, 2022, 10:15:09 PM
This thread is starting to feel a little bit to political to be in the "RPG" section of the forum.
That is just my feeling or opinion.
People online and in this forum have often assumed me to be 'conservative' - but many of the posts I have read in this thread make me feel like a 'moderate' or middle of the road type.
Also, I am currently running a GURPS campaign that is set in the 'Star Trek' universe.
- Ed C.
If you don't agree with woke idiots you're "conservative" or (more commonly) "right-wing", even if your actual policy positions don't actually align with what was originally understood by those terms. They have become completely meaningless. That being said there are aspects of SJ's comments that go beyond whether you identify with any political tribe. Some of the things he said were questionable or inaccurate and deeply speculative partisan attacks that included accusing "conservatives"/the "right" for being responsible for all mass shootings and ridiculous ideas like instituting a national tithe everyone would be forced to pay. And they were laced with woke language about being a privileged white male and such.
I will grant you that some of the comments here (perhaps most) are for more "conservative" in the original meaning of the term than I am, but I abhor falsehoods (including false framings) or woke nonsense.
Quote from: Koltar on July 20, 2022, 08:25:15 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 20, 2022, 02:25:38 AM
Luckily for you Star Trek has always been political.
No, it really hasn't been or was not 'political'. It always takes place around 200 years or so into the future - so of course things have 'changed' - usually for the better.
That used to be called 'progressive' or 'future thinking', it wasn't political.
- Ed C.
progressive did not mean "forward thinking" to 20th century progressives. actually meant white purity, eugenics, and a hatred for the US Constitution. Look up the history of pregressivism. It meant to "progress" past individual rights and toward a society where "rights" are granted by an authoritarian state.
Quote from: Aglondir on July 20, 2022, 01:38:03 AM
Wow. It gets worse. I just saw "Illuminati Second Edition 2020" on Ebay. Not sure how I missed this, but I haven't seen anyone mention it here before. Mods: Although technically it relates to a card game (and not an RPG) it is published by Steve Jackson Games, and seems related to this thread. If not, feel free to move it to a more suitable location.
First, some background. Many of you grew up playing the original Illuminati card game in the 80's; or the collectible version, Illuminati: new World Order in the 90's. Both of those games were fun card games about conspiracies vying for world domination. They took an even-handed stance when it came to politics, mildly poking fun at both sides of the aisle. There were cards for both Bill Clinton and Al Gore, as well as Ronald Reagan and George Bush.
The new game looks like an expansion that mostly focuses on Covid. While I haven't seen the entirety of the new game—and if you have, please chime in—the cards I see on Ebay are woke and one-sided. Examples:
Black Lives Matter: No artwork. Text reads: "A turning point for society... this card counts as Special. When it is played, keep it on the table like an NWO, but nothing can remove it."
[list of cards and astute analysis)
I saw this game as an auction on Ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/265035475759?hash=item3db5586b2f:g:3TAAAOSwTVxiVn0y&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4FlsUR9w4dTZC3X6ZU7zI8o3HFgqqNBQSxDWd3o6ywgPVhGZ1S0ZwNtVU7mTjzVpkXpoRbumfS2WdHPN1lbxI6SdnFOZ4t58IdySv3T02u3pxtJc70dLieDVhn5bz36HKXW%2FyXzl6Ei7bOcClmCgLWq9LQ505Sn%2BD19%2FOpd1FFk9nd%2FgfPhlPJp87Am3qAfD5N4n9WdIVCbKaF8Ag3Sx4TmmMpNjgBzX0uDExMQlck%2F0KG92OravTx9uny2LBCIBp9UrqfWe3t46WZle0JDAn0ErC%2F70%2B61ybaL8WXMezn%2F2%7Ctkp%3ABFBM0OqRncNg
Oddly enough, when I search for it on the SJG website, it gives a 404:
https://www.sjgames.com/ourgames/card.html
I saw that expansion before.[/list]
Quote from: Koltar on July 20, 2022, 08:25:15 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 20, 2022, 02:25:38 AM
Luckily for you Star Trek has always been political.
No, it really hasn't been or was not 'political'. It always takes place around 200 years or so into the future - so of course things have 'changed' - usually for the better.
That used to be called 'progressive' or 'future thinking', it wasn't political.
- Ed C.
I CALL BULLSHIT ON THAT!
Star Trek has always had political commentary stories in it. To deny that is to deny reality.
This is not the place to discuss the politics of Star Trek. People who keep derailing the thread with that off-topic discussion, or any other off-topic discussion, will be banned.
Edit - Posted while RPGPundit was also posting.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:51:37 PM
This is not the place to discuss the politics of Star Trek. People who keep derailing the thread with that off-topic discussion, or any other off-topic discussion, will be banned.
Yes let us return to commenting on how an RPG producer is donating their profits to a fund named after a Demon so that women can kill their unborn children.
Quote from: Shasarak on July 20, 2022, 08:00:01 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:51:37 PM
This is not the place to discuss the politics of Star Trek. People who keep derailing the thread with that off-topic discussion, or any other off-topic discussion, will be banned.
Yes let us return to commenting on how an RPG producer is donating their profits to a fund named after a Demon so that women can kill their unborn children.
A case of reality is stranger than fiction. If it were a novel I'd say that's too heavy handed but alas they even have cult costumes
Quote from: Ocule on July 20, 2022, 09:16:02 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 20, 2022, 08:00:01 PM
Yes let us return to commenting on how an RPG producer is donating their profits to a fund named after a Demon so that women can kill their unborn children.
A case of reality is stranger than fiction. If it were a novel I'd say that's too heavy handed but alas they even have cult costumes
And conversely, another RPG producer names themselves "Venger Satanis" after a male devil, and publishes an RPG module explicitly dedicated to taking away a woman's right to an abortion.
Reality is strange, but then, it's always been strange.
Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 09:55:18 PM
Quote from: Ocule on July 20, 2022, 09:16:02 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 20, 2022, 08:00:01 PM
Yes let us return to commenting on how an RPG producer is donating their profits to a fund named after a Demon so that women can kill their unborn children.
A case of reality is stranger than fiction. If it were a novel I'd say that's too heavy handed but alas they even have cult costumes
And conversely, another RPG producer names themselves "Venger Satanis" after a male devil, and publishes an RPG module explicitly dedicated to taking away a woman's right to an abortion.
Reality is strange, but then, it's always been strange.
You know you are having a bad day when even the Pope disagrees with you
Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 09:55:18 PM
Quote from: Ocule on July 20, 2022, 09:16:02 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 20, 2022, 08:00:01 PM
Yes let us return to commenting on how an RPG producer is donating their profits to a fund named after a Demon so that women can kill their unborn children.
A case of reality is stranger than fiction. If it were a novel I'd say that's too heavy handed but alas they even have cult costumes
And conversely, another RPG producer names themselves "Venger Satanis" after a male devil, and publishes an RPG module explicitly dedicated to taking away a woman's right to an abortion.
Reality is strange, but then, it's always been strange.
Actually, he's named after a D&D cartoon character. Why don't you ask him? With your number of posts surely you've noticed that he's a member of this forum, as well as one of Pundit's video cohosts.
Quote from: Koltar on July 20, 2022, 08:25:15 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 20, 2022, 02:25:38 AM
Luckily for you Star Trek has always been political.
No, it really hasn't been or was not 'political'. It always takes place around 200 years or so into the future - so of course things have 'changed' - usually for the better.
That used to be called 'progressive' or 'future thinking', it wasn't political.
- Ed C.
Star Trek is a horrible dystopian future.
The only bright spot is the Ferengi empire.
All hail "The rules of aquisition"
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:51:37 PM
This is not the place to discuss the politics of Star Trek. People who keep derailing the thread with that off-topic discussion, or any other off-topic discussion, will be banned.
Aight. On the Woke-O-Meter, I give this stance by SJG a 2.75 out of 10. They support Roe, but then a lot of people do without being screeching retards. Company's got an official statement, they're welcome to have one and make it public. The "Lilith Fund" sounds like the usual wink and jab at conservative religion, and not an indication that they're Satanist Baby Killers.
I imagine the only reason we've made it this far on the thread is because some posters here have strong opinions about RvW and abortion in general and SJG is a fairly big name in gaming.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 18, 2022, 11:53:00 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 10, 2022, 10:55:54 AM
Is anyone talking about this anywhere else? I'm not seeing it discussed over on TBP, but they may be hiding the celebration in Tangency.
It's taken a week, but someone is trying to rally the hordes to the SJG banner ... https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/ (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/)
The guy trying to "rally the hordes" at rpg.net (C31R07) is using a new account
created a week ago. Not too smart. I would not be surprised if the mysterious poster in question works for or with Steve Jackson Games, in some capacity. And I don't know why, but I get this weird feeling that Jackson secretly doesn't even fully control his own company any more. But whatever.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2022, 02:45:55 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:51:37 PM
This is not the place to discuss the politics of Star Trek. People who keep derailing the thread with that off-topic discussion, or any other off-topic discussion, will be banned.
Aight. On the Woke-O-Meter, I give this stance by SJG a 2.75 out of 10. They support Roe, but then a lot of people do without being screeching retards. Company's got an official statement, they're welcome to have one and make it public. The "Lilith Fund" sounds like the usual wink and jab at conservative religion, and not an indication that they're Satanist Baby Killers.
I imagine the only reason we've made it this far on the thread is because some posters here have strong opinions about RvW and abortion in general and SJG is a fairly big name in gaming.
The abortion industry is indeed a satanic ritual, involving mass child sacrifice. It always was. But a lot of people haven't figured that out yet. That said, I would have been happy to dismiss him as yet another selfish normie Boomer, who's clueless about the evils of abortion. But then he started sperging about a bunch of other (seemingly unrelated) globohomo issues, and donated to that
fucking demonic fund.The fund he made a
PRESS RELEASE for is not called the "Women's Rights Fund". That fund is named after a DEMON who kills babies. And this is advocated by a guy with a Luciferian Illuminati logo on his site? Yeah, ok. ::) Jackson (or whomever is in control over there) knows EXACTLY the significance of the abortion fund's name. That perverse motherfucker knows.
He knows. >:(
Quote from: Timothe on July 20, 2022, 10:53:49 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 09:55:18 PM
Quote from: Ocule on July 20, 2022, 09:16:02 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 20, 2022, 08:00:01 PM
Yes let us return to commenting on how an RPG producer is donating their profits to a fund named after a Demon so that women can kill their unborn children.
A case of reality is stranger than fiction. If it were a novel I'd say that's too heavy handed but alas they even have cult costumes
And conversely, another RPG producer names themselves "Venger Satanis" after a male devil, and publishes an RPG module explicitly dedicated to taking away a woman's right to an abortion.
Reality is strange, but then, it's always been strange.
Actually, he's named after a D&D cartoon character. Why don't you ask him? With your number of posts surely you've noticed that he's a member of this forum, as well as one of Pundit's video cohosts.
Ah, but that would go against his
reason de antre which is misinformation cleverly disguised as intellectual honesty!
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on July 21, 2022, 04:35:07 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 18, 2022, 11:53:00 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 10, 2022, 10:55:54 AM
Is anyone talking about this anywhere else? I'm not seeing it discussed over on TBP, but they may be hiding the celebration in Tangency.
It's taken a week, but someone is trying to rally the hordes to the SJG banner ... https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/ (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/)
The guy trying to "rally the hordes" at rpg.net (C31R07) is using a new account created a week ago. Not too smart. I would not be surprised if the mysterious poster in question works for or with Steve Jackson Games, in some capacity. And I don't know why, but I get this weird feeling that Jackson secretly doesn't even fully control his own company any more. But whatever.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2022, 02:45:55 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:51:37 PM
This is not the place to discuss the politics of Star Trek. People who keep derailing the thread with that off-topic discussion, or any other off-topic discussion, will be banned.
Aight. On the Woke-O-Meter, I give this stance by SJG a 2.75 out of 10. They support Roe, but then a lot of people do without being screeching retards. Company's got an official statement, they're welcome to have one and make it public. The "Lilith Fund" sounds like the usual wink and jab at conservative religion, and not an indication that they're Satanist Baby Killers.
I imagine the only reason we've made it this far on the thread is because some posters here have strong opinions about RvW and abortion in general and SJG is a fairly big name in gaming.
The abortion industry is indeed a satanic ritual, involving mass child sacrifice. It always was. But a lot of people haven't figured that out yet. That said, I would have been happy to dismiss him as yet another selfish normie Boomer, who's clueless about the evils of abortion. But then he started sperging about a bunch of other (seemingly unrelated) globohomo issues, and donated to that fucking demonic fund.
The fund he made a PRESS RELEASE for is not called the "Women's Rights Fund". That fund is named after a DEMON who kills babies. And this is advocated by a guy with a Luciferian Illuminati logo on his site? Yeah, ok. ::) Jackson (or whomever is in control over there) knows EXACTLY the significance of the abortion fund's name. That perverse motherfucker knows.
He knows. >:(
Pffft. This is the guy who published In Nomine, an irreverant RPG about Angels and Devils and religion. SJG has been courting controversy all the time it's existed. They only got close (AFAIK) with the FBI raids.
But you want to proclaim he's a Satan worshipper participating in the intentional sacrifice of babies. I can believe some far out conspiracies, but I'm gonna need some direct evidence and not conjecture over 1. The illuminati symbol, chosen because they, y'know, made a game about the illuminati, and 2. An abortion fund named after a mythological demon.
I'd sooner believe that people who play Dungeons and Dragons are satan worshippers because the game is full of demons and magic spells.
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on July 21, 2022, 04:35:07 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 18, 2022, 11:53:00 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 10, 2022, 10:55:54 AM
Is anyone talking about this anywhere else? I'm not seeing it discussed over on TBP, but they may be hiding the celebration in Tangency.
It's taken a week, but someone is trying to rally the hordes to the SJG banner ... https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/ (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/)
The guy trying to "rally the hordes" at rpg.net (C31R07) is using a new account created a week ago. Not too smart. I would not be surprised if the mysterious poster in question works for or with Steve Jackson Games, in some capacity. And I don't know why, but I get this weird feeling that Jackson secretly doesn't even fully control his own company any more. But whatever.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2022, 02:45:55 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:51:37 PM
This is not the place to discuss the politics of Star Trek. People who keep derailing the thread with that off-topic discussion, or any other off-topic discussion, will be banned.
Aight. On the Woke-O-Meter, I give this stance by SJG a 2.75 out of 10. They support Roe, but then a lot of people do without being screeching retards. Company's got an official statement, they're welcome to have one and make it public. The "Lilith Fund" sounds like the usual wink and jab at conservative religion, and not an indication that they're Satanist Baby Killers.
I imagine the only reason we've made it this far on the thread is because some posters here have strong opinions about RvW and abortion in general and SJG is a fairly big name in gaming.
The abortion industry is indeed a satanic ritual, involving mass child sacrifice. It always was. But a lot of people haven't figured that out yet. That said, I would have been happy to dismiss him as yet another selfish normie Boomer, who's clueless about the evils of abortion. But then he started sperging about a bunch of other (seemingly unrelated) globohomo issues, and donated to that fucking demonic fund.
The fund he made a PRESS RELEASE for is not called the "Women's Rights Fund". That fund is named after a DEMON who kills babies. And this is advocated by a guy with a Luciferian Illuminati logo on his site? Yeah, ok. ::) Jackson (or whomever is in control over there) knows EXACTLY the significance of the abortion fund's name. That perverse motherfucker knows.
He knows. >:(
Looks to me like SJG successfully trolled you and got you bleating out some new wave satanic panic bullshit. But then, it was targeted at those that seek perpetual outrage...and they come from the right as often as they come from the left.
"Steve" Jackson say no more.
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on July 21, 2022, 04:35:07 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 18, 2022, 11:53:00 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 10, 2022, 10:55:54 AM
Is anyone talking about this anywhere else? I'm not seeing it discussed over on TBP, but they may be hiding the celebration in Tangency.
It's taken a week, but someone is trying to rally the hordes to the SJG banner ... https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/ (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/)
The guy trying to "rally the hordes" at rpg.net (C31R07) is using a new account created a week ago. Not too smart. I would not be surprised if the mysterious poster in question works for or with Steve Jackson Games, in some capacity. And I don't know why, but I get this weird feeling that Jackson secretly doesn't even fully control his own company any more. But whatever.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2022, 02:45:55 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:51:37 PM
This is not the place to discuss the politics of Star Trek. People who keep derailing the thread with that off-topic discussion, or any other off-topic discussion, will be banned.
Aight. On the Woke-O-Meter, I give this stance by SJG a 2.75 out of 10. They support Roe, but then a lot of people do without being screeching retards. Company's got an official statement, they're welcome to have one and make it public. The "Lilith Fund" sounds like the usual wink and jab at conservative religion, and not an indication that they're Satanist Baby Killers.
I imagine the only reason we've made it this far on the thread is because some posters here have strong opinions about RvW and abortion in general and SJG is a fairly big name in gaming.
The abortion industry is indeed a satanic ritual, involving mass child sacrifice. It always was. But a lot of people haven't figured that out yet. That said, I would have been happy to dismiss him as yet another selfish normie Boomer, who's clueless about the evils of abortion. But then he started sperging about a bunch of other (seemingly unrelated) globohomo issues, and donated to that fucking demonic fund.
The fund he made a PRESS RELEASE for is not called the "Women's Rights Fund". That fund is named after a DEMON who kills babies. And this is advocated by a guy with a Luciferian Illuminati logo on his site? Yeah, ok. ::) Jackson (or whomever is in control over there) knows EXACTLY the significance of the abortion fund's name. That perverse motherfucker knows.
He knows. >:(
If C31R07 was an SJG employee, he should be fired for incompetence. He managed to get shitcanned at TBP after less than a week.
I wonder if C31R07 is actually Battlemaster posting there from a sock account for being butthurt that he got banned here. I'm not sure his writing style is the same, but it could be. He does seem to have at least a single mistyped spelling mistake in every post and he did that a lot here. Might be why he got banned there, assuming it was him and they found out he was trying to circumvent a ban (not sure if he was banned there before, though, but I think I recall him coming here after having problems there).
Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 09:55:18 PM
And conversely, another RPG producer names themselves "Venger Satanis" after a male devil, and publishes an RPG module explicitly dedicated to taking away a woman's right to an abortion.
Reality is strange, but then, it's always been strange.
An author publishes a fantasy book in a fantasy world about fantasy elements that has a spoof on today's Real Life topics.
I see nothing wrong with publishing this as is and letting the marketplace decide if it's a good RolePlaying Product or pure trash.
Once the Author/Company goes out and states what their political or moral agenda is and aligns their products that they sell with said agenda then the product is a represenation of the company/invididual.
In this way one can seperate the art from the artist cleanly.
I do not see Vengar stating that buying said product is now supporting Pro-Life movement. Show me where he did that as SJG did with pro-choice.
My hot take is that there is a significant difference between knowing that the employees or owners of a company will use their money in a way you're opposed to and buying their stuff anyway, and buying a product where the profits are specifically going to go to support a cause you're opposed to.
First of all, trying to avoid the first case means never doing business with any large company at all because statistically some percent of the employees of any such company will use part of their paycheck supporting something you oppose.
Secondly, though, is the matter of fungibility and intention. If I buy a hamburger from someone I know spends part of their money to something I oppose, the money I give him for the burger just goes in a big pool out of which some goes to support evil. If on the other hand he says "1% of the profits on this burger go to support the thing" then he's inviting me to participate in what I oppose and I know that some of my money specifically will be earmarked for it.
From a strictly consequentialist standpoint it might not be possible to distinguish the two but I'm not a consequentialist.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on July 21, 2022, 11:30:08 AM
Once the Author/Company goes out and states what their political or moral agenda is and aligns their products that they sell with said agenda then the product is a represenation of the company/invididual.
In this way one can seperate the art from the artist cleanly.
I do not see Vengar stating that buying said product is now supporting Pro-Life movement. Show me where he did that as SJG did with pro-choice.
So Steve Jackson said that buying the specific t-shirt would support a pro-choice fund, but didn't say that about his gaming products. Venger Satanis didn't say anything about monetary donations, but he did clearly connect the product to the cause. His blog announcement of the adventure went:
QuoteJust this morning, I released a new PDF scenario for Cha'alt... my eldritch, gonzo, science-fantasy, post-apocalypse campaign setting.
The Good Syma'arian commemorates the striking down of Roe vs Wade. Hey, bad precedent is bad precedent. Not to mention, murder is wrong. While I'm not an absolutist, I lean stronger on the pro-life side.
http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2022/05/anti-abortion-free-chaalt-adventure.html
And in the text of the adventure itself, it has the same political appeal.
QuoteThis scenario was written to commemorate the historic upending of America's "Roe vs Wade" abortion case from 1973... the year D&D was conceived.
As most people are hopefully aware, the overturning of this legal decision by the United States Supreme Court does not mean abortion is
suddenly illegal throughout the country. Rather, limitations and restrictions are kicked-back to the individual states so that the people can
decide for themselves what's to be done about this particularly thorny issue.
The Good Syma'arian touches on various political topics, referencing The Bible, pop-culture, and my own eldritch, gonzo, science-fantasy, post-apocalyptic campaign setting Cha'alt... get the entire trilogy!
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sGj55NiTGJ-WFHlr-VBou-B0rqAlEAt1/view
That is clearly stating his political agenda, and is specifically aligning the product itself with the agenda. If the issue is monetary donations, that's not specified, but it's also not specified for any of SJG gaming products.
Who can forget GURPS Ladyboys? The title says it all.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2022, 02:45:55 AM
On the Woke-O-Meter, I give this stance by SJG a 2.75 out of 10. They support Roe, but then a lot of people do without being screeching retards. Company's got an official statement, they're welcome to have one and make it public. The "Lilith Fund" sounds like the usual wink and jab at conservative religion, and not an indication that they're Satanist Baby Killers.
I imagine the only reason we've made it this far on the thread is because some posters here have strong opinions about RvW and abortion in general and SJG is a fairly big name in gaming.
What?? How dare you exercise such rationality and critical thinking when someone mentions "babies"! :o
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2022, 02:45:55 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:51:37 PM
This is not the place to discuss the politics of Star Trek. People who keep derailing the thread with that off-topic discussion, or any other off-topic discussion, will be banned.
Aight. On the Woke-O-Meter, I give this stance by SJG a 2.75 out of 10. They support Roe, but then a lot of people do without being screeching retards. Company's got an official statement, they're welcome to have one and make it public. The "Lilith Fund" sounds like the usual wink and jab at conservative religion, and not an indication that they're Satanist Baby Killers.
I imagine the only reason we've made it this far on the thread is because some posters here have strong opinions about RvW and abortion in general and SJG is a fairly big name in gaming.
No.
There was no "wink and jab" in the SJG press release. Read it again. There was no playfulness in it whatsoever. He wasn't "trolling" or trying to be "edgy". Jackson (or whomever wrote the press release) came across as weak, afraid, and self-righteous about being morally depraved. It came across like some poorly-written, Boomer Groomer SJW manifesto.
Edit: I also read a bit of the "Lilith" site. There's no "wink and jab" there either. It's obviously some very well-funded and well-organized globalist NGO, with funds coming from....somewhere. It might be a CIA proxy organization, or the site might be a proxy for some other group. I haven't thoroughly researched it, so I don't know. It brings up stereotypical neo-marxist bafflegab like, "intersectionality", "anti-racism", and "white supremacy". And of course, they put the international terrorist group, BLM, up on a pedestal.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2022, 06:08:39 AM
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on July 21, 2022, 04:35:07 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 18, 2022, 11:53:00 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 10, 2022, 10:55:54 AM
Is anyone talking about this anywhere else? I'm not seeing it discussed over on TBP, but they may be hiding the celebration in Tangency.
It's taken a week, but someone is trying to rally the hordes to the SJG banner ... https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/ (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/)
The guy trying to "rally the hordes" at rpg.net (C31R07) is using a new account created a week ago. Not too smart. I would not be surprised if the mysterious poster in question works for or with Steve Jackson Games, in some capacity. And I don't know why, but I get this weird feeling that Jackson secretly doesn't even fully control his own company any more. But whatever.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2022, 02:45:55 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:51:37 PM
This is not the place to discuss the politics of Star Trek. People who keep derailing the thread with that off-topic discussion, or any other off-topic discussion, will be banned.
Aight. On the Woke-O-Meter, I give this stance by SJG a 2.75 out of 10. They support Roe, but then a lot of people do without being screeching retards. Company's got an official statement, they're welcome to have one and make it public. The "Lilith Fund" sounds like the usual wink and jab at conservative religion, and not an indication that they're Satanist Baby Killers.
I imagine the only reason we've made it this far on the thread is because some posters here have strong opinions about RvW and abortion in general and SJG is a fairly big name in gaming.
The abortion industry is indeed a satanic ritual, involving mass child sacrifice. It always was. But a lot of people haven't figured that out yet. That said, I would have been happy to dismiss him as yet another selfish normie Boomer, who's clueless about the evils of abortion. But then he started sperging about a bunch of other (seemingly unrelated) globohomo issues, and donated to that fucking demonic fund.
The fund he made a PRESS RELEASE for is not called the "Women's Rights Fund". That fund is named after a DEMON who kills babies. And this is advocated by a guy with a Luciferian Illuminati logo on his site? Yeah, ok. ::) Jackson (or whomever is in control over there) knows EXACTLY the significance of the abortion fund's name. That perverse motherfucker knows.
He knows. >:(
Pffft. This is the guy who published In Nomine, an irreverant RPG about Angels and Devils and religion. SJG has been courting controversy all the time it's existed. They only got close (AFAIK) with the FBI raids.
But you want to proclaim he's a Satan worshipper participating in the intentional sacrifice of babies. I can believe some far out conspiracies, but I'm gonna need some direct evidence and not conjecture over 1. The illuminati symbol, chosen because they, y'know, made a game about the illuminati, and 2. An abortion fund named after a mythological demon.
I'd sooner believe that people who play Dungeons and Dragons are satan worshippers because the game is full of demons and magic spells.
Don't do that. I don't "want" to proclaim anything. Don't make it about me. I like Jackson's games, and I have no idea if he's a devil-worshipper or not. I would hope and pray that he's not. Frankly, I don't know if the man even controls his own gaming company any more. Who knows, right?
The 'Satanic' thing is something I would have completely dismissed as conspiracy theory wankery five years ago.....but a large number of politicians, entertainers, corporate talking heads, public figures, and business owners have been behaving very fucking strangely over the past few years....to such a point that I won't just casually dismiss the idea of it.
The real point here is that I do not trust Steve Jackson any more. I reject his morality and his entire world view. As far as I am concerned, he is completely morally depraved. I will never fully trust anyone who trivializes child sacrifice. And after reading the SJG press release, his self-righteous neo-Marxist pro-Groomer wankery and advocacy of the CIA/NATO proxy war in Ukraine just throws extra cat shit on a dog shit sandwich.
I can give money to people whose values do not align with mine, but only up to a point. He made a press release about donating to an abortion fund named after a baby-killing demon. Well, you tell me. Is Satan or Baphomet going to be "rebranded" as a "feminist" icon next? Don't laugh! I would have considered that question unthinkable and retarded five years ago, or maybe even only two years ago.....but not now.
Anyway, I'll say it again. I liked Munchkin and I liked GURPS. I feel nostalgic for playing both these games right now, but I can live without buying new SJG product....because as far as I'm concerned, Steve Jackson is pond scum. I am not interested in giving the man money, because it means I'm condoning and enabling his particular brand of evil.
And yes, I do mean the word, "evil". Remember, you don't have to personally hurl a crying baby into a burning volcano to be evil. Sometimes, what we call evil is more casual, subtle, and mundane. And Jackson's advocacy of the "Lilith Fund" is a prime example of it.
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on July 21, 2022, 03:06:19 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2022, 02:45:55 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:51:37 PM
This is not the place to discuss the politics of Star Trek. People who keep derailing the thread with that off-topic discussion, or any other off-topic discussion, will be banned.
Aight. On the Woke-O-Meter, I give this stance by SJG a 2.75 out of 10. They support Roe, but then a lot of people do without being screeching retards. Company's got an official statement, they're welcome to have one and make it public. The "Lilith Fund" sounds like the usual wink and jab at conservative religion, and not an indication that they're Satanist Baby Killers.
I imagine the only reason we've made it this far on the thread is because some posters here have strong opinions about RvW and abortion in general and SJG is a fairly big name in gaming.
No.
There was no "wink and jab" in the SJG press release. Read it again. There was no playfulness in it whatsoever. He wasn't "trolling" or trying to be "edgy". Jackson (or whomever wrote the press release) came across as weak, afraid, and self-righteous about being morally depraved. It came across like some poorly-written, Boomer Groomer SJW manifesto.
Edit: I also read a bit of the "Lilith" site. There's no "wink and jab" there either. It's obviously some very well-funded and well-organized globalist NGO, with funds coming from....somewhere. It might be a CIA proxy organization, or the site might be a proxy for some other group. I haven't thoroughly researched it, so I don't know. It brings up stereotypical neo-marxist bafflegab like, "intersectionality", "anti-racism", and "white supremacy". And of course, they put the international terrorist group, BLM, up on a pedestal.
None of this indicates Satan worship. What do you mean by Satan Worship anyway? Is it anything you don't like?
QuoteQuote from: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2022, 06:08:39 AM
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on July 21, 2022, 04:35:07 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 18, 2022, 11:53:00 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 10, 2022, 10:55:54 AM
Is anyone talking about this anywhere else? I'm not seeing it discussed over on TBP, but they may be hiding the celebration in Tangency.
It's taken a week, but someone is trying to rally the hordes to the SJG banner ... https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/ (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/)
The guy trying to "rally the hordes" at rpg.net (C31R07) is using a new account created a week ago. Not too smart. I would not be surprised if the mysterious poster in question works for or with Steve Jackson Games, in some capacity. And I don't know why, but I get this weird feeling that Jackson secretly doesn't even fully control his own company any more. But whatever.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2022, 02:45:55 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:51:37 PM
This is not the place to discuss the politics of Star Trek. People who keep derailing the thread with that off-topic discussion, or any other off-topic discussion, will be banned.
Aight. On the Woke-O-Meter, I give this stance by SJG a 2.75 out of 10. They support Roe, but then a lot of people do without being screeching retards. Company's got an official statement, they're welcome to have one and make it public. The "Lilith Fund" sounds like the usual wink and jab at conservative religion, and not an indication that they're Satanist Baby Killers.
I imagine the only reason we've made it this far on the thread is because some posters here have strong opinions about RvW and abortion in general and SJG is a fairly big name in gaming.
The abortion industry is indeed a satanic ritual, involving mass child sacrifice. It always was. But a lot of people haven't figured that out yet. That said, I would have been happy to dismiss him as yet another selfish normie Boomer, who's clueless about the evils of abortion. But then he started sperging about a bunch of other (seemingly unrelated) globohomo issues, and donated to that fucking demonic fund.
The fund he made a PRESS RELEASE for is not called the "Women's Rights Fund". That fund is named after a DEMON who kills babies. And this is advocated by a guy with a Luciferian Illuminati logo on his site? Yeah, ok. ::) Jackson (or whomever is in control over there) knows EXACTLY the significance of the abortion fund's name. That perverse motherfucker knows.
He knows. >:(
Pffft. This is the guy who published In Nomine, an irreverant RPG about Angels and Devils and religion. SJG has been courting controversy all the time it's existed. They only got close (AFAIK) with the FBI raids.
But you want to proclaim he's a Satan worshipper participating in the intentional sacrifice of babies. I can believe some far out conspiracies, but I'm gonna need some direct evidence and not conjecture over 1. The illuminati symbol, chosen because they, y'know, made a game about the illuminati, and 2. An abortion fund named after a mythological demon.
I'd sooner believe that people who play Dungeons and Dragons are satan worshippers because the game is full of demons and magic spells.
Don't do that. I don't "want" to proclaim anything. Don't make it about me. I like Jackson's games, and I have no idea if he's a devil-worshipper or not.
Then don't throw the accusation around lightly.
If fetuses are babies (and where we draw that line...I guess God and Satan only know) and LOTS of abortions in the USA are well past 15 weeks, and Satan likes babies to be sacrificed I think he probably does not give two shits if you show up in his church and chant so long as you keep the baby sacrifices rolling. I wonder if Steve thinks a good solution of feeling intense grief and depression is suicide?
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2022, 06:08:39 AM
But you want to proclaim he's a Satan worshipper participating in the intentional sacrifice of babies. I can believe some far out conspiracies, but I'm gonna need some direct evidence and not conjecture over 1. The illuminati symbol, chosen because they, y'know, made a game about the illuminati, and 2. An abortion fund named after a mythological demon.
There is a clear difference between being a Satan worshiper participating in the intentional sacrifice of babies and a useful idiot paying for the sacrificing of babies by Satan worshipers.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2022, 05:34:56 PM
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on July 21, 2022, 03:06:19 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2022, 02:45:55 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:51:37 PM
This is not the place to discuss the politics of Star Trek. People who keep derailing the thread with that off-topic discussion, or any other off-topic discussion, will be banned.
Aight. On the Woke-O-Meter, I give this stance by SJG a 2.75 out of 10. They support Roe, but then a lot of people do without being screeching retards. Company's got an official statement, they're welcome to have one and make it public. The "Lilith Fund" sounds like the usual wink and jab at conservative religion, and not an indication that they're Satanist Baby Killers.
I imagine the only reason we've made it this far on the thread is because some posters here have strong opinions about RvW and abortion in general and SJG is a fairly big name in gaming.
No.
There was no "wink and jab" in the SJG press release. Read it again. There was no playfulness in it whatsoever. He wasn't "trolling" or trying to be "edgy". Jackson (or whomever wrote the press release) came across as weak, afraid, and self-righteous about being morally depraved. It came across like some poorly-written, Boomer Groomer SJW manifesto.
Edit: I also read a bit of the "Lilith" site. There's no "wink and jab" there either. It's obviously some very well-funded and well-organized globalist NGO, with funds coming from....somewhere. It might be a CIA proxy organization, or the site might be a proxy for some other group. I haven't thoroughly researched it, so I don't know. It brings up stereotypical neo-marxist bafflegab like, "intersectionality", "anti-racism", and "white supremacy". And of course, they put the international terrorist group, BLM, up on a pedestal.
None of this indicates Satan worship. What do you mean by Satan Worship anyway? Is it anything you don't like?
You're kind of a passive-aggressive morally disingenuous douchebag.
Does Steve Jackson understand the significance of naming an abortion fund after a baby-killing demon or not? Yes or no? I consider that to be a legitimate question.
QuoteQuote from: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2022, 06:08:39 AM
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on July 21, 2022, 04:35:07 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 18, 2022, 11:53:00 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 10, 2022, 10:55:54 AM
Is anyone talking about this anywhere else? I'm not seeing it discussed over on TBP, but they may be hiding the celebration in Tangency.
It's taken a week, but someone is trying to rally the hordes to the SJG banner ... https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/ (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/)
The guy trying to "rally the hordes" at rpg.net (C31R07) is using a new account created a week ago. Not too smart. I would not be surprised if the mysterious poster in question works for or with Steve Jackson Games, in some capacity. And I don't know why, but I get this weird feeling that Jackson secretly doesn't even fully control his own company any more. But whatever.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2022, 02:45:55 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:51:37 PM
This is not the place to discuss the politics of Star Trek. People who keep derailing the thread with that off-topic discussion, or any other off-topic discussion, will be banned.
Aight. On the Woke-O-Meter, I give this stance by SJG a 2.75 out of 10. They support Roe, but then a lot of people do without being screeching retards. Company's got an official statement, they're welcome to have one and make it public. The "Lilith Fund" sounds like the usual wink and jab at conservative religion, and not an indication that they're Satanist Baby Killers.
I imagine the only reason we've made it this far on the thread is because some posters here have strong opinions about RvW and abortion in general and SJG is a fairly big name in gaming.
The abortion industry is indeed a satanic ritual, involving mass child sacrifice. It always was. But a lot of people haven't figured that out yet. That said, I would have been happy to dismiss him as yet another selfish normie Boomer, who's clueless about the evils of abortion. But then he started sperging about a bunch of other (seemingly unrelated) globohomo issues, and donated to that fucking demonic fund.
The fund he made a PRESS RELEASE for is not called the "Women's Rights Fund". That fund is named after a DEMON who kills babies. And this is advocated by a guy with a Luciferian Illuminati logo on his site? Yeah, ok. ::) Jackson (or whomever is in control over there) knows EXACTLY the significance of the abortion fund's name. That perverse motherfucker knows.
He knows. >:(
Pffft. This is the guy who published In Nomine, an irreverant RPG about Angels and Devils and religion. SJG has been courting controversy all the time it's existed. They only got close (AFAIK) with the FBI raids.
But you want to proclaim he's a Satan worshipper participating in the intentional sacrifice of babies. I can believe some far out conspiracies, but I'm gonna need some direct evidence and not conjecture over 1. The illuminati symbol, chosen because they, y'know, made a game about the illuminati, and 2. An abortion fund named after a mythological demon.
I'd sooner believe that people who play Dungeons and Dragons are satan worshippers because the game is full of demons and magic spells.
Don't do that. I don't "want" to proclaim anything. Don't make it about me. I like Jackson's games, and I have no idea if he's a devil-worshipper or not.
Quote from: RatmanThen don't throw the accusation around lightly.
I don't absolutely know for sure, but I
STRONGLY suspect it. Why else would Jackson donate to an abortion fund named after a
baby-killing demon? Remember that this guy has also researched Luciferian Illuminati wankery for his precious games. How would someone like him not understand the religious or mythic significance of "Lilith", in regards to abortion? Are you saying that he's not evil, but just monumentally stupid?
But whatever. Go worship and white knight your precious groomer hero, who also advocates for the murder of babies. It's too creepy and weird for me.
And incidentally, someone named "agentdenton" indirectly posted about this thread last week on the SJG forum. He might be the same person as "C31R07" from rpgnet, before he was banned. Both accounts posted at roughly the same time.
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on July 21, 2022, 06:18:45 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2022, 05:34:56 PM
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on July 21, 2022, 03:06:19 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2022, 02:45:55 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:51:37 PM
This is not the place to discuss the politics of Star Trek. People who keep derailing the thread with that off-topic discussion, or any other off-topic discussion, will be banned.
Aight. On the Woke-O-Meter, I give this stance by SJG a 2.75 out of 10. They support Roe, but then a lot of people do without being screeching retards. Company's got an official statement, they're welcome to have one and make it public. The "Lilith Fund" sounds like the usual wink and jab at conservative religion, and not an indication that they're Satanist Baby Killers.
I imagine the only reason we've made it this far on the thread is because some posters here have strong opinions about RvW and abortion in general and SJG is a fairly big name in gaming.
No.
There was no "wink and jab" in the SJG press release. Read it again. There was no playfulness in it whatsoever. He wasn't "trolling" or trying to be "edgy". Jackson (or whomever wrote the press release) came across as weak, afraid, and self-righteous about being morally depraved. It came across like some poorly-written, Boomer Groomer SJW manifesto.
Edit: I also read a bit of the "Lilith" site. There's no "wink and jab" there either. It's obviously some very well-funded and well-organized globalist NGO, with funds coming from....somewhere. It might be a CIA proxy organization, or the site might be a proxy for some other group. I haven't thoroughly researched it, so I don't know. It brings up stereotypical neo-marxist bafflegab like, "intersectionality", "anti-racism", and "white supremacy". And of course, they put the international terrorist group, BLM, up on a pedestal.
None of this indicates Satan worship. What do you mean by Satan Worship anyway? Is it anything you don't like?
You're kind of a passive-aggressive morally disingenuous douchebag.
Does Steve Jackson understand the significance of naming an abortion fund after a baby-killing demon or not? Yes or no? I consider that to be a legitimate question.
QuoteQuote from: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2022, 06:08:39 AM
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on July 21, 2022, 04:35:07 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 18, 2022, 11:53:00 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 10, 2022, 10:55:54 AM
Is anyone talking about this anywhere else? I'm not seeing it discussed over on TBP, but they may be hiding the celebration in Tangency.
It's taken a week, but someone is trying to rally the hordes to the SJG banner ... https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/ (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/a-time-to-rally.899681/)
The guy trying to "rally the hordes" at rpg.net (C31R07) is using a new account created a week ago. Not too smart. I would not be surprised if the mysterious poster in question works for or with Steve Jackson Games, in some capacity. And I don't know why, but I get this weird feeling that Jackson secretly doesn't even fully control his own company any more. But whatever.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2022, 02:45:55 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:51:37 PM
This is not the place to discuss the politics of Star Trek. People who keep derailing the thread with that off-topic discussion, or any other off-topic discussion, will be banned.
Aight. On the Woke-O-Meter, I give this stance by SJG a 2.75 out of 10. They support Roe, but then a lot of people do without being screeching retards. Company's got an official statement, they're welcome to have one and make it public. The "Lilith Fund" sounds like the usual wink and jab at conservative religion, and not an indication that they're Satanist Baby Killers.
I imagine the only reason we've made it this far on the thread is because some posters here have strong opinions about RvW and abortion in general and SJG is a fairly big name in gaming.
The abortion industry is indeed a satanic ritual, involving mass child sacrifice. It always was. But a lot of people haven't figured that out yet. That said, I would have been happy to dismiss him as yet another selfish normie Boomer, who's clueless about the evils of abortion. But then he started sperging about a bunch of other (seemingly unrelated) globohomo issues, and donated to that fucking demonic fund.
The fund he made a PRESS RELEASE for is not called the "Women's Rights Fund". That fund is named after a DEMON who kills babies. And this is advocated by a guy with a Luciferian Illuminati logo on his site? Yeah, ok. ::) Jackson (or whomever is in control over there) knows EXACTLY the significance of the abortion fund's name. That perverse motherfucker knows.
He knows. >:(
Pffft. This is the guy who published In Nomine, an irreverant RPG about Angels and Devils and religion. SJG has been courting controversy all the time it's existed. They only got close (AFAIK) with the FBI raids.
But you want to proclaim he's a Satan worshipper participating in the intentional sacrifice of babies. I can believe some far out conspiracies, but I'm gonna need some direct evidence and not conjecture over 1. The illuminati symbol, chosen because they, y'know, made a game about the illuminati, and 2. An abortion fund named after a mythological demon.
I'd sooner believe that people who play Dungeons and Dragons are satan worshippers because the game is full of demons and magic spells.
Don't do that. I don't "want" to proclaim anything. Don't make it about me. I like Jackson's games, and I have no idea if he's a devil-worshipper or not.
Quote from: RatmanThen don't throw the accusation around lightly.
I don't absolutely know for sure, but I STRONGLY suspect it. Why else would Jackson donate to an abortion fund named after a baby-killing demon? Remember that this guy has also researched Luciferian Illuminati wankery for his precious games. How would someone like him not understand the religious or mythic significance of "Lilith", in regards to abortion? Are you saying that he's not evil, but just monumentally stupid?
But whatever. Go worship and white knight your precious groomer hero, who also advocates for the murder of babies. It's too creepy and weird for me.
And incidentally, someone named "agentdenton" indirectly posted about this thread last week on the SJG forum. He might be the same person as "C31R07" from rpgnet, before he was banned. Both accounts posted at roughly the same time.
Or, again, SJG just did it to troll for idiots that are going to have bombastic reactions. It seems that he was particularly successful in this.
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on July 21, 2022, 06:18:45 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2022, 05:34:56 PM
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on July 21, 2022, 03:06:19 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2022, 02:45:55 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:51:37 PM
This is not the place to discuss the politics of Star Trek. People who keep derailing the thread with that off-topic discussion, or any other off-topic discussion, will be banned.
Aight. On the Woke-O-Meter, I give this stance by SJG a 2.75 out of 10. They support Roe, but then a lot of people do without being screeching retards. Company's got an official statement, they're welcome to have one and make it public. The "Lilith Fund" sounds like the usual wink and jab at conservative religion, and not an indication that they're Satanist Baby Killers.
I imagine the only reason we've made it this far on the thread is because some posters here have strong opinions about RvW and abortion in general and SJG is a fairly big name in gaming.
No.
There was no "wink and jab" in the SJG press release. Read it again. There was no playfulness in it whatsoever. He wasn't "trolling" or trying to be "edgy". Jackson (or whomever wrote the press release) came across as weak, afraid, and self-righteous about being morally depraved. It came across like some poorly-written, Boomer Groomer SJW manifesto.
Edit: I also read a bit of the "Lilith" site. There's no "wink and jab" there either. It's obviously some very well-funded and well-organized globalist NGO, with funds coming from....somewhere. It might be a CIA proxy organization, or the site might be a proxy for some other group. I haven't thoroughly researched it, so I don't know. It brings up stereotypical neo-marxist bafflegab like, "intersectionality", "anti-racism", and "white supremacy". And of course, they put the international terrorist group, BLM, up on a pedestal.
None of this indicates Satan worship. What do you mean by Satan Worship anyway? Is it anything you don't like?
You're kind of a passive-aggressive morally disingenuous douchebag.
I'm honestly asking the question because I was becoming confused about your use of the term. I can't help if you think that makes me a "passive-aggressive morally disingenuous douchebag".
Quote
Does Steve Jackson understand the significance of naming an abortion fund after a baby-killing demon or not? Yes or no? I consider that to be a legitimate question.
You should probably ask him. I don't know.
QuoteI don't absolutely know for sure, but I STRONGLY suspect it. Why else would Jackson donate to an abortion fund named after a baby-killing demon? Remember that this guy has also researched Luciferian Illuminati wankery for his precious games. How would someone like him not understand the religious or mythic significance of "Lilith", in regards to abortion? Are you saying that he's not evil, but just monumentally stupid?
I'm saying I don't know either way. I don't know the guy personally. My opinion is that he's probably pro-abortion rights and isn't afraid of "satanist" connotations like I'm not afriad of being called a Nazi by wokesters.
QuoteBut whatever. Go worship and white knight your precious groomer hero, who also advocates for the murder of babies. It's too creepy and weird for me.
Don't get your panties in a bunch. I haven't bought a SJG product since the 90's, and I don't particularly care about Steve Jackson as a person one way or the other.
They really chinched out on production values for their anti-life T-shirt.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYXN0FuXkAUdYYN?format=jpg&name=small
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 23, 2022, 11:58:39 AM
They really chinched out on production values for their anti-life T-shirt.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYXN0FuXkAUdYYN?format=jpg&name=small
I guess this is intentionally mocking, but in case it isn't clear, the actual t-shirt is here:
https://www.redbubble.com/i/t-shirt/Flower-Our-Bodies-Our-Choice-for-Charity-by-SJ-Games/116922983.VL7OD.XYZ
(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/theory/gender/sjg-pro-choice-shirt.png)
Quote from: jhkim on July 23, 2022, 01:31:57 PM
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 23, 2022, 11:58:39 AM
They really chinched out on production values for their anti-life T-shirt.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYXN0FuXkAUdYYN?format=jpg&name=small
I guess this is intentionally mocking, but in case it isn't clear, the actual t-shirt is here:
https://www.redbubble.com/i/t-shirt/Flower-Our-Bodies-Our-Choice-for-Charity-by-SJ-Games/116922983.VL7OD.XYZ
(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/theory/gender/sjg-pro-choice-shirt.png)
I think she lost a game of "got your nose" or else that toothed axe took a nip at it.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 23, 2022, 01:34:08 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 23, 2022, 01:31:57 PM
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 23, 2022, 11:58:39 AM
They really chinched out on production values for their anti-life T-shirt.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYXN0FuXkAUdYYN?format=jpg&name=small
I guess this is intentionally mocking, but in case it isn't clear, the actual t-shirt is here:
https://www.redbubble.com/i/t-shirt/Flower-Our-Bodies-Our-Choice-for-Charity-by-SJ-Games/116922983.VL7OD.XYZ
(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/theory/gender/sjg-pro-choice-shirt.png)
I think she lost a game of "got your nose" or else that toothed axe took a nip at it.
She's a mouth-breather.
Bill Burr's view on the topic is similar to my own.
Same Pundit. Bill Burr's view is mine as well.
Quote from: jhkim on July 23, 2022, 01:31:57 PM
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 23, 2022, 11:58:39 AM
They really chinched out on production values for their anti-life T-shirt.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYXN0FuXkAUdYYN?format=jpg&name=small
I guess this is intentionally mocking, but in case it isn't clear, the actual t-shirt is here:
https://www.redbubble.com/i/t-shirt/Flower-Our-Bodies-Our-Choice-for-Charity-by-SJ-Games/116922983.VL7OD.XYZ
(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/theory/gender/sjg-pro-choice-shirt.png)
Another one satirizing that one
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYnbmi3WYAEHHXZ?format=jpg)
Nice to see that SJG is against vaccine mandates. I mean, that's what "my body, my choice" refers to -- right?
Well, well, look what FedEx dropped off...
(https://img.fae.ro/47c3af.jpeg)
Good stuff!
Quote from: Tubesock Army on August 02, 2022, 08:45:46 AM
Well, well, look what FedEx dropped off...
[image of classic SJG pocket reprint boxes]
Good stuff!
I got some of those before SJ's anti-human rights manifesto.
As did I (been a fan of SJG since the OG pocket box days), but this was a nice way to fill out my collection while supporting SJG.
Another thing I noticed is that on their web site, Illuminator, etc., they are always talking how hard things are for them now with shipping costs and the high inflation rate. We get it, but you get the world you support and ask for. Please, don't complain when you get it.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on August 02, 2022, 02:49:44 PM
Another thing I noticed is that on their web site, Illuminator, etc., they are always talking how hard things are for them now with shipping costs and the high inflation rate. We get it, but you get the world you support and ask for. Please, don't complain when you get it.
All publishers are complaining about that, though.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on August 02, 2022, 02:49:44 PM
Another thing I noticed is that on their web site, Illuminator, etc., they are always talking how hard things are for them now with shipping costs and the high inflation rate. We get it, but you get the world you support and ask for. Please, don't complain when you get it.
I don't understand their complaints.
They use Chinese slaves to make their products that are manufactured in factories powered by cheap coal.
They are shipped across the pacific on ships powered by diesel and delivered to them in trucks powered by diesel.
And they set up shop in a State that has no corporate tax.
What's not to love?
Here's the thing about SJGames:
First let me start by saying that as an employer the question of what kind of support they will give their female employees is very much their business, that isn't about getting political
secondly, they seem to me to veer liberal when there is a big ticket issue they can play up- the Supreme court ruling, the George Floyd protests, but maintain a constant conservative drumbeat the rest of the time, from insisting that they were not going to change a supplement which insisted that all witches were evil when hordes of their customers protested (they eventually decided to drop it but wouldn't change it) that this was discriminatory to allowing white supremacist symbols in their e-communications while as a matter of free speech while shutting down anyone who protested against them as "bringing politics into the site" and banning them. They also got bad press at a low level several years ago for deciding to stick with an independent author who had been accused of sexual misconduct at a convention. I'm not sure how much of this just goes to a limit on how liberal one can actually be in Texas or if there is some kind of weird back and forth to the corporate culture, t if they are really more or less alt-right except when there is a very obvious PR reason not to be. Whatever is going on there it is neither simple nor straightforward.
i am NOT going to multi quote a bunch of people - but here is the simple fact :
Yes, SJ Games is in a supposedly 'Conservative' or right-wing state (supposedly).
However, they are also headquartered in Austin - which according to even Texans is a very 'Liberal' city.
Just like Ohio is thought of as 'conservative', but if you live and work in the Cleveland area it is very 'left' leaning or liberal there.
I still buy and support SJG products and items in general.
- Ed C.
Aye, Austin is its own little bubble due to politics and academia being almost across the street from each other. Fun place to party, but I don't know if I would want to live there.
Quote from: silveroak on August 18, 2022, 05:34:38 PM
SJG ...allowing white supremacist symbols in their e-communications...
Do tell
Quote from: S'mon on July 08, 2022, 06:21:58 AM
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
Today's announcement from Steve Jackson Games is full-steam partisan/activist/pro-abortion. I don't care what side you fall on: pro-abortion, or the side that's on the right side of history. Right to privacy? Keep your extremism private.
Official word from Steve Jackson, alienating the majority of people.
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/July_08_2022/Roe_v_Wade
They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children. (Link to the "charity" http://www.lilithfund.org )
Lilith fund?! ??? ROTFLMAO! They should have just called it the Moloch fund.
It's always interesting to me how left-wing groups, while supposedly being atheists, are so often quick to adopt Satanic imagery. On the face of it, it just seems like a bizarre decision to willfully reinforce your opposition's allegations against you. The Jungian conspiracy theorist in me wants to hypothesize that it's down to some kind of subconscious acknowledgement of a wider "Satanic" principle that lies deeper than Christian theology, but that's probably reaching.
It's a strange serendipity that in the last couple of weeks I've both been reading Montague Sommers' book on witchcraft, and exploring the world of Black Metal, and then this pops up. Just seems like there's been a lot of Satan in my life lately...
As much as we like to put issues in binary camps, it's entirely possible for people to have opinions that vary on specific issues. Obviously, Steve Jackson takes the abortion issue very seriously.
Their next annual public report, which usually includes revenue and employee numbers, will be interesting. Munchkin is their main revenue stream though and that relies on mass distribution, not an online-connected fan community, so they'll probably be okay. Looking over their forums a number of them seem to have dropped off in participation lately, although that may be just summer.
Salaam Folks,
My first post here, so please be gentle. Or not. I'm old.
I've been a GURPS fan for years (and before that, TFT). At one point, in the early 2000's, I could boast having every single GURPS book. (Sadly, in a fire, many were damaged...the rest still smell of smoke, but on my shelves.) Though most of my RPG days are long past--I was far more into it in my Elementary, Junior High, and High School days...D&D White box, LBB Traveller, Gamma World, TMNT, Dr. Who, and of course...GURPS. I still love looking through the books, but really haven't played much recently.
Politically and religiously, I'm pretty conservative in most ways (my handle here might give you some clues of those political and religious views). But my views on the legal questions surrounding abortion aren't really dictated by my religion (which has a pretty nuanced view, depending on what legal school you subscribe to)--I view it more as a human rights issue (the human rights of prenatal Homo Sapiens), and being in a secular political system, they don't belong in the political discussion, either.
So I'm unashamedly pro-life, from a secular perspective. I understand, though, that in this hobby there are many who are very much Pro-Choice, and this hobby isn't the place for that debate...on *either* side. No matter how passionately I believe in this, I'm not going to expect that everyone in the hobby shares my view on the subject. And I hope I would be extended the same courtesy by others.
So that's why I was so very disappointed by SJG announcement. There wasn't even the pretense of saying "this is a controversial issue, and good people can disagree..."--rather, it was basically "if you are against the taking of prenatal human life, you are evil, the SCOTUS is evil, and the state we live in is evil."
It's very much in line with the move from Bill Clinton's "safe, legal, and RARE" to a full-throated celebration of abortion for any reason at any stage in the pregnancy, and any limitations whatsoever are literally the Handmaiden's Tale. (And any scientific facts on the biological characteristics of prenatal homo sapiens are ignored or actively rejected as irrelevant. "Science!" is only important if it support your metaphysical presuppositions, I guess. Once you declare one set of Homo Sapiens as unworthy of human rights, well, all sorts of atrocities are possible and often realized.)
So...should I still buy SJG games? I just got through an orgy of buying a bunch of 4th edition stuff (.pdfs) because if I start playing more RPGs with my kids (I'd rather bond over these games than the latest Disney drivel), I wanted them to try GURPS and see the boundless possibilities that RPGs have.
Now? Well, I'm not going to get rid of all my books (hey, I even kept the blackened pages of the books that were all but destroyed by the fire.) But I will seriously reconsider buying anything from them in the future. And what was posted about some of the updated Illuminati game cards also reveals where the company's going. Not so much that Steve might be Pro Choice, or even that he used the Daily Illuminator to proclaim his view...and not even pushing any SJW stuff in his games. All of these things are personal and, well *pretend* when it's in a game.
It's his incredibly morally self-assured statement, demonizing his opposition--plus his donations to the Lilith Fund. (And reading the post by Steve, it's not entirely clear that *only* tee-shirt sales will go to that fund.) That's not playing a game. That's actively supporting the killing of prenatal Homo Sapiens ***in real life***. Those dollars will go directly to an activity that would be roughly analogous to having SJG as part owners in a ship importing slaves from Africa two and a half centuries ago. It's morally abhorrent.
The fact that he stopped allowing posts on his thread at SJG on this issue probably means that some complained about this. But the way he treats his opposition is frankly disgusting. I'm not a Christian, I don't want to enshrine the Bible as the law of the land, I have completely non-religious reasons for being against abortion--but somehow I'm part of an evil cabal trying to build a theocracy. Well, f*ck him and his company.
(And yes, the people running and contributing to the Lilith Fund probably don't believe in a literal Lilith, or a literal Devil. They're just doing the "Edgy" thing of trying to be provocative in their naming, like Jezebel Magazine or others. BUT...on the religious side, I'd say actively seeing to underwrite killing unborn humans is pretty much from Shaytan, even if they don't believe in him. I'm sure Mao didn't believe in Shaytan, but served him well nonetheless in killing millions. But that's my religious understanding, and I'm not going to let it cloud the issue that is at hand: killing human beings is wrong, no matter what your views on religion. And again, I understand some might disagree...but it isn't an issue to me if they just shut the h*ll up about it. But Stevie had to sermonize. That makes him full-bore SJW and a A**hole.)
Welcome to one of the last places in this hobby where free speech still happens, Osman Gazi.
I agree with your position. The stand or opinion is one thing, but the attitude and bravado behind it was on a different level. So while I try to separate art from artist, if the artist *wants* to be tethered to their art, I am happy to accommodate.
Very well said, Osman Gazi. I like the point made that he, along with so many others of his ilk, puts his opinion out there as though it's indisputable. And it's a GREAT point that when he sends his money to the Lilith fund it's not a game. That's real. That's sending money to end lives. No game at all. Great point!
As far as the ineffable self-confidence of these crusaders, they live in a bubble and believe any new fake talking points their media cooks up. If their media of choice said voting and jury trials must be suspended to save democracy, they'd all high-five each other around the water cooler for agreeing. SJG can drift off peacefully without any more of my dollars.
At this Point are halfway there imo.
If they did not have a munchkin bringing in extra revenue they would have gone the way of Hero Games.
It always makes me laugh when any person owning a business says we don't need you're money. Sure you don't need our money lol.
Quote from: Abraxus on August 23, 2022, 12:14:53 PM
At this Point are halfway there imo.
If they did not have a munchkin bringing in extra revenue they would have gone the way of Hero Games.
It always makes me laugh when any person owning a business says we don't need you're money. Sure you don't need our money lol.
^^^^^This^^^^^^
the illuminati/munchkin games really can't afford to lose a high amount of customers.....or maybe they don't care....eh...what do I know.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 23, 2022, 05:25:05 PM
Quote from: Abraxus on August 23, 2022, 12:14:53 PM
At this Point are halfway there imo.
If they did not have a munchkin bringing in extra revenue they would have gone the way of Hero Games.
It always makes me laugh when any person owning a business says we don't need you're money. Sure you don't need our money lol.
^^^^^This^^^^^^
the illuminati/munchkin games really can't afford to lose a high amount of customers.....or maybe they don't care....eh...what do I know.
Well, Steve is around 70, and Phil Reed is a few years older iirc, so I guess it depends on what the succession plan is once one or both decide to move on.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 08, 2022, 02:44:36 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on July 08, 2022, 01:46:25 PM
I can support the art as separate from the artist until the artist rubs my nose in it. Then I can't anymore. Because when I try, instead of enjoying the art, all I can think about is, "This was made by that SOB that rubbed my nose in it."
Separating the art from the artist is a two way street, and I don't see much work being done going down the opposite lane.
^ This right here. Well said!
Catching this right now due to some recent things I've read about SJW and SJG :) agree here, thanks for mentioning and this echoes my thoughts and find it nice that it's not just me. no car wars new version for me . still been wanting it for years. but sheesh.
Car Wars was fun back when it was the only game in town. If I would do vehicle combat today, I'd probably go with Gaslands.
https://planetsmashergames.com/gaslands/ (https://planetsmashergames.com/gaslands/)
Oh thanks! had no idea!
Gaslands to me is pretty lame imitator of Car Wars, but Fantasy GMR, if you're interesting in the basic Car Wars 6th Edition, I have a barely-used Double Ace Box set that I wouldn't mind selling you. Then you can own it by getting it on the secondary market. Msg me if you're interested.
Quote from: rkhigdon on August 23, 2022, 05:44:52 PMWell, Steve is around 70, and Phil Reed is a few years older iirc, so I guess it depends on what the succession plan is once one or both decide to move on.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/878398683854786560/ArtTfEc9_400x400.jpg)
Quote from: rkhigdon on August 23, 2022, 05:44:52 PMWell, Steve is around 70, and Phil Reed is a few years older iirc, so I guess it depends on what the succession plan is once one or both decide to move on.
Phil Reed is no longer with SJG. It hasn't been disclosed whether or not he was fired. Phil's successor marks off all the woke check boxes, based on her posts/social media.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 08, 2022, 10:19:27 AM
What does this have to do with Steve Jackson Games deciding to Woke virtue signal in a way that alienates at least half his potential customers?
SJG's been alienating and just play ignoring their potential customers for decades now. Same-ol-same-ol.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 08, 2022, 10:41:52 AM
I admit to some morbid curiosity about what kind of actual business case they thought they were making. Does SJG really believe that the market they gain from taking this stance will publicly make up for what they lose?
Could be they are just pro choice and against anything that takes that away from women. That at least would make some sort of sense.
But too many people equate choice with MURDER and so its going to be read wrong no matter.
Quote from: Omega on January 25, 2024, 07:36:57 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 08, 2022, 10:41:52 AM
I admit to some morbid curiosity about what kind of actual business case they thought they were making. Does SJG really believe that the market they gain from taking this stance will publicly make up for what they lose?
Could be they are just pro choice and against anything that takes that away from women. That at least would make some sort of sense.
But too many people equate choice with MURDER and so its going to be read wrong no matter.
It could have been, if he didn't make is the official company stance. What about the pro-life employees? Wouldn't that make them uncomfortable? And if the answer is, "Maybe he only hires like-minded people, so there are none in his company"... well, isn't that an even bigger problem of discrimination based on one's beliefs?
Women deserve control of their own bodies. They deserve full, life-saving medical care. They deserve privacy. That's not a political stance, that's just consonant with the modern belief that women are, in fact, human.
Quote from: pawsplay on January 25, 2024, 09:56:11 PM
Women deserve control of their own bodies. They deserve full, life-saving medical care. They deserve privacy. That's not a political stance, that's just consonant with the modern belief that women are, in fact, human.
Yep. And they deserve all these things
even when they are in their own mother's womb.
Quote from: pawsplay on January 25, 2024, 09:56:11 PM
Women deserve control of their own bodies. They deserve full, life-saving medical care. They deserve privacy. That's not a political stance, that's just consonant with the modern belief that women are, in fact, human.
This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule:
do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
Quote from: pawsplay on January 25, 2024, 09:56:11 PM
Women deserve control of their own bodies. (and babies that aren't their bodies) They deserve full, life-saving medical care (which no one is denying them). They deserve privacy (as do all Americans but govt overreach ended that). That's not a political stance (but it is), that's just consonant with the modern belief that women are, in fact, human. (though the only ones being dehumanized are preborn babies)
Pawsplay coming to troll a thread that went 18 months without his political nonsense and until then was just fine.
To steer back towards a more RPG theme...what cult/religion was that where they sacrificed the new born babies in the Superheated brass bull? Baal, or Moloch? I know Carthage practiced this stuff and it would make an EXCELLENT trait for a villainous cult to appear in an RPG setting. They can be very good at constantly telling all the women they do not want, or need the constant worry and responsibility of a child and sacrificing it to the "gods" will bring them great satisfaction. I guess the only difference between the cults of history/fantasy rpgs and the cult today, is they can go ahead and give Baal/Moloch what he wants without birthing a child.
I do not see any scenario where I could play a character that identified with the beliefs of a cult like that...literal comic book level villain level of evil.
Quote from: oggsmash on January 26, 2024, 02:23:55 AM
To steer back towards a more RPG theme...what cult/religion was that where they sacrificed the new born babies in the Superheated brass bull? Baal, or Moloch?
It was Moloch. Recently, author Jonathan Cahn wrote a book on the trio with Ishtar as the third member, and explained each one in detail.
Also, Baal was the bull.
Quote from: pawsplay on January 25, 2024, 09:56:11 PM
Women deserve control of their own bodies. They deserve full, life-saving medical care. They deserve privacy. That's not a political stance, that's just consonant with the modern belief that women are, in fact, human.
This is in fact a political stance, and one that veers off the topic. Post off-topic again anywhere and you'll be banned.
Quote from: oggsmash on January 26, 2024, 02:23:55 AM
To steer back towards a more RPG theme...what cult/religion was that where they sacrificed the new born babies in the Superheated brass bull? Baal, or Moloch? I know Carthage practiced this stuff and it would make an EXCELLENT trait for a villainous cult to appear in an RPG setting. They can be very good at constantly telling all the women they do not want, or need the constant worry and responsibility of a child and sacrificing it to the "gods" will bring them great satisfaction. I guess the only difference between the cults of history/fantasy rpgs and the cult today, is they can go ahead and give Baal/Moloch what he wants without birthing a child.
I do not see any scenario where I could play a character that identified with the beliefs of a cult like that...literal comic book level villain level of evil.
Historians seem to be less certain today whether this was actually done regularly, or whether it was done a couple of times in moments of panic, or whether it was entirely the creation of their enemies' historians. (q.v. also claims that the Romans practiced human sacrifice - it's likely that vestal virgins who broke the rules were buried alive, but it's alleged even by some Roman writers in period that there were also outright sacrifices of humans to the gods.) Also alleged were one or two instances of mass sacrifice by burning of war captives on the battlefield, and losing generals committing ritual sacrifical suicide rather than returning to face likely punishment (also parallel if not exactly matching some Roman practices.) When you archaeologically investigate the Tophet there's a lot less sign of babies having been slain by burning than would be expected from the stories passed down to us.
- as remembered from my recent reading of The Carthaginians, Dexter Hoyos, 2010.
Also compare the common practice alleged of many cultures of leaving unwanted or unhealthy babies out to die by exposure; I'm not sure "feed baby to the wolves" is any kinder than "kill baby in the temple", and in famine it could be argued to be better than "slow death by starvation".
I believe it's considered more likely that the original Phoenecian home cities from which Carthage sprang practiced ritual infanticide.
Hopefully not a derailment, but I'm admittedly a bit confused. I myself consider abortion to involve killing, by definition. I'm not really much in favor of it at the individual level from a moral perspective as a result. That said, Steve Jackson games was originally listed as woke in this thread I think because it had gone directly for the left wing side of things by supporting abortion lobbying actively with proceeds? (Though it has also gone genuinely woke via other actions taken involving support for DEI and the like.)
The former is of course a political stance, because supporting politically and morally contentious issues with sales proceeds is a political stance, hence in part the listing. I disagree with pawsplay's claim to the contrary. But I think it may have despite being incorrect been a relevant claim to the original post within our gaming context? It felt very much like what SJG and its supporters might say, at least.
With respect to the ruling, was it that the thread had evolved and it was no longer relevant to the discussion? Or was it the fact that with a political context as contentious as abortion it would likely result in thread derailment to encourage discussion of the issue in question? Both?
Essentially just trying to figure out whether it's contentious political topics that should be avoided in more direct discussion (even if tangentially related to the thread or OP), within an RPG politics context as opposed to politics subforum context. Or if thread responses are primarily supposed to be keyed to current thread discussion as opposed to previous, when the discussion has broadly moved on. Or I guess a separate reason, which is entirely plausible.
I'm not always the sharpest tool in the shed, and sometimes I pace the line so to speak on acceptable thread behavior with respect to derailment and the like. Just kinda hoping to get the rough reasoning and extrapolate my own recommended personal conduct from there.
KindaMeh, The reason it, to me, is grounds for going on the woke meter is not SJ's personal position on the issue, or if he's irrational or subscribes to kook theories that sound like they came out of his Illuminati game. In that case I wouldn't care less, but that he made it the official company stance, and put funds and efforts to the cause. Much like the fascists at rpg.net made it their official stance (and announced that wrongthink would be canceled).
In Pawsplay's case, he has a chronic habit of using political talk when it revolves to a gaming story into a soapbox to troll entire threads with posts that have nothing to do with the topic as it relates to gaming, but just to use it a an opportunity spout his beliefs on the political topic.
I think the stance of SJ Games is entirely in keeping with the standards of modern, ethical society. I think they made the right call and it will pay off for them. I don't think it's "woke," 80-something perfect of people in the USA agree with them. That is my opinion about the actions of SJ Games, which have been described by other people in this thread, and are about the subject matter of how "woke" SJ Games is, and how this affects their relationship with their customers.
Quote from: pawsplay on January 26, 2024, 03:31:15 PM
I think the stance of SJ Games is entirely in keeping with the standards of modern, ethical society. I think they made the right call and it will pay off for them. I don't think it's "woke," 80-something perfect of people in the USA agree with them. That is my opinion about the actions of SJ Games, which have been described by other people in this thread, and are about the subject matter of how "woke" SJ Games is, and how this affects their relationship with their customers.
80% is a statistical lie, and that's why it's not paying off for SJG. They reported a revenue loss last year.
At the end of the day its SJG being stupid... again. News at 11.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on January 26, 2024, 03:55:16 PM
Quote from: pawsplay on January 26, 2024, 03:31:15 PM
I think the stance of SJ Games is entirely in keeping with the standards of modern, ethical society. I think they made the right call and it will pay off for them. I don't think it's "woke," 80-something perfect of people in the USA agree with them. That is my opinion about the actions of SJ Games, which have been described by other people in this thread, and are about the subject matter of how "woke" SJ Games is, and how this affects their relationship with their customers.
80% is a statistical lie, and that's why it's not paying off for SJG. They reported a revenue loss last year.
It probably has more to do with what happened with Dungeon Fantasy.
The data analysis I provided on Jan 17 last year in the Woke list thread indicates that it's across the board.
Looking at the updated list, it would appear this was indeed determined to constitute red list behavior as interpreted by the list creator. Presumably under the strong political stance segment. I wasn't really sure what constitutes a strong political stance as opposed to simply a political stance or in-book preaching (yellow modifier). However, reading what is written here I'd assume it is when substantial proceeds go directly to a politicized cause.
Not sure that's intrinsically Woke as I would describe it. (I feel like Woke reasoning rather than political practice more generally, is structured more specifically such that intrinsic birth identities are either demonized or glorified as oppressor/oppressed to the point of pushing unequal treatment based on that under the law, hiring practices, service provision and cetera.) But if that's the criteria the list uses for Woke then I guess that's that within said context. I'd assume this also applies to any controversial political topic where right wing or left wing or whatever opinions are espoused and backed with funding. So in a sense, a push towards a gaming space that is apolitical in non-game corporate endeavors to avoid red, and to avoid yellow not noticeably politically preachy for in-game content. Not a bad idea, per se, but I dunno if I'd call it the same thing as an anti-Woke criteria.
IDK. Kinda just going stream of consciousness here with respect to how this thread relates to the list and its precepts.
I do enjoy the idea a cult that slaughters babies in an rpg could have worm tongue types going around everywhere in society marrying their actions to words like "ethical" and declaring they have 80 percent support. That is pretty smart from the perspective of the cult to spread such propaganda and it could lead the characters to accidently get into a fracas with cult members for stating some wrong facts out loud around them.