Quote from: Panjumanju;499861I think what the OP really intended with his post was simply that he's noticed some behavioural nuances in other posts annoy him with their generalisations, and he does not want to do the same.

I can almost empathize in that I think one thread even where people posted some explanation for their opinions on certain games would not only make an entertaining read, it would also open up a wider level of discourse than the bevy of variations on "that game sucks" and the offhand sarcastic non sequitors favoured by some of the boards more persistent trolls,  

On the other hand, the OP undermined this very thing with his pretentious and arrogant tone, and feebly insulting hyperbolic generalizations, and general...well, "wankery" really does fit. At best any worthwhile point he was trying to make can be dismissed as utter hypocrisy, but his continued hostile childlike discourse only leads one to believe this was simply an attempt at an ego-stroking troll.

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;499839Links???   Show me the money...

Really? First result on google for "best selling tabletop rpg titles":

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/19721.html

Quote from: TristramEvans;499879Really? First result on google for "best selling tabletop rpg titles":

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/19721.html

That is 2010...

Where is 2011?

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;499881That is 2010...

Where is 2011?

Considering it just ended today, probably just before tax time.
Though I imagine there are a ton of preliminary reports, but I think you're perfectly capable of using google yourself from this point on.

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;499801It is the WORST rpg ever sold?

It is the WORST ruleset ever.

Obviously a matter of personal opinion.

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;499801It is the BESTSELLING game this year.

It is the WORST SELLING game this year.

MORE people play this edition.

MORE people avoid that edition.

and so on and so on...

The man's got a point here, though. Pundit in particular loves making up his own facts about the hobby, past and present.

ICv2's stats, already linked, offer some insight, but as far as historical trends (e.g. oWoD vs. nWoD) or actual play (e.g. Pundit's wild claim that Palladium games saw more actual play than WW games in the 90s, despite WW outselling Palladium) goes, all we have is anecdote and speculation. Which is why I find this sort of debate moot.

Quite a good troll.

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;499801So, as an avid reader and more of a person that stands in the shadows and observes people through their reactions to certain things, I was wondering how people can make a statement and use words such as:

It is the WORST rpg ever sold?

It is the WORST ruleset ever.

It is the BESTSELLING game this year.

It is the WORST SELLING game this year.

MORE people play this edition.

MORE people avoid that edition.

and so on and so on...

SO, my question is how can you posters make such statements and NOT give any evidence to support your supposition???  I, for one, will never make such declarations and NOT provide statistical evidence to back up the claim.  Where do you get your evidence??  Is it just a personal opinion???  Is it only in your little gaming group or are you speaking again in general terms applying to all spectrums within RPG's???

I'm sorry, but before answering your question I need you to provide links to examples of this purported behavior.

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;499801MORE people avoid that edition.

How do you define people avoiding an edition / game as opposed to not playing it?

I mean, I've never played Shadowrun 1st or 2nd, but I'm not avoiding those, I'm just playing other editions.

Quote from: The Butcher;499904The man's got a point here, though. Pundit in particular loves making up his own facts about the hobby, past and present.

Pundit is a man of his word, and that word is "bullshit".

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;499859Did they have any friends?

Of the three individuals in question, two of them were actually friends.  Though these two didn't appear to have many other friends, besides themselves and their other hardcore skeptic friends.

The third individual had a wife.  I don't know much about this person, beyond that.

I've found that stats and facts don't really change much in these discussions. On EN World it is pretty common to see people posting sales info and other data on the old 3E-4E flamewars and still no one agrees what the numbers mean. People generally start with their opinion and bend the facts to their position in my experience. Best case scenario someone simply has no response to a fact presented and gets angry (but hasn't changed his opinion). Every once in a blue moon I will see a person acknowledge being wrong about something.

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;499862Not true in every case and perhaps just the ones you are accustomed to experiencing more likely

This just happens to be what I observed in the offline circles I socialize in.

Outside of my immediate offline social circles, I have not met anybody else yet who demands references/proof for everything.

If you are indeed being truthful, then you are a data point which falsifies my initial assertion.  Since I have probably not met you in person and I am probably not in your immediate offline social circles, I don't have enough data to determine the case in general.  (ie. Data insufficient).

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;499862but I just do not take one's word at face value especially those online in a gaming forum and those in the gaming community.

I am generally a lot more skeptical in niches outside of rpg games.  As far as I'm concerned, rpg games are an entertaining side hobby for me.

I have other priorities where my skeptical nature is much more in full force, than rpg games.  For example, my skeptical nature is at full blast when it comes to unproven conjectures in pure mathematics.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;499936I've found that stats and facts don't really change much in these discussions. On EN World it is pretty common to see people posting sales info and other data on the old 3E-4E flamewars and still no one agrees what the numbers mean. People generally start with their opinion and bend the facts to their position in my experience. Best case scenario someone simply has no response to a fact presented and gets angry (but hasn't changed his opinion). Every once in a blue moon I will see a person acknowledge being wrong about something.

that's very true. Nature of the internet. I honestly don't know why most of these things matter. "Best" and "Worse" is so subjective that an argument based on those lines is completely meaningless - I don't subscribe to the "badwrongfun" philosophy. Best and worst-selling is of absolutely no concern to me whatsoever. Most of the games I play have been out of print for years, sometimes decades. As to how many people play this or that edition? I don't think that's even possible to answer, or why it would be worth answering if one could.

OTOH, I like reading different opinions. If anything, I'd just rather posts not be boring or ambiguously passive aggressive.

QuoteIf you are indeed being truthful, then you are a data point which falsifies my initial assertion. Since I have probably not met you in person and I am probably not in your immediate offline social circles, I don't have enough data to determine the case in general. (ie. Data insufficient).

People that meet me after knowing me online find me to be a good guy and that I promise.  I have no reason to come online and lie.  Not my nature, not the way I was raised, and certainly now how I conducted myself when I served 23 years in the Marine Corps.

QuoteI am generally a lot more skeptical in niches outside of rpg games. As far as I'm concerned, rpg games are an entertaining side hobby for me.

That makes sense to me but since I am dealing with people in person, I already know the character of their content so I am less likely to be skeptical when we converse.  Online, I have NO CLUE who I am conversing with and beleive me when I say this, just because one has a phenominal grasp of the English vocabulary does not mean I beleive everything they post.  

Quotethat's very true. Nature of the internet. I honestly don't know why most of these things matter. "Best" and "Worse" is so subjective that an argument based on those lines is completely meaningless - I don't subscribe to the "badwrongfun" philosophy. Best and worst-selling is of absolutely no concern to me whatsoever. Most of the games I play have been out of print for years, sometimes decades. As to how many people play this or that edition? I don't think that's even possible to answer, or why it would be worth answering if one could.

Very well said and that is why I dismiss posts that do this this...

This is the same guy who claimed he could tell whether you would be a good DM based on your posts on the internet. He's our new troll of the week.

Quote from: ggroy;499939I am generally a lot more skeptical in niches outside of rpg games.  As far as I'm concerned, rpg games are an entertaining side hobby for me.

A fair enough argument, but once you start seriously discussing RPGs (which, mind you, is not the same as treating RPGs as Serious Business like pure mathematics, or cancer surgery, or the upcoming elections), if you intend to hold any sort of meaningful debate, you have to have a minimum standard of intellectual rigor. And not making shit up is a good start.

As for "best" and "worst" games, well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The OP has made his biases well know, and I try to do the same, but the fact that one poster prefer OD&D and another poster prefers AD&D 2e (or 3.5/PF, or 4e, or dislikes D&D entirely but loves Rolemaster), shouldn't preclude insightful and enlightening debate on the games we run and play. Unless, of course, we opt to have a dick-waving match and call each other names, which some people in this forum (not the least of whom the OP) seem a bit too fond of.

This has nothing to with having a neutering thought-police moderation like RPGnet, and everything to do about getting to the skinny of what this forum is (or, in my fertile imagination, should be) all about: learning interesting new stuff (and in my case, discovering all sorts of interesting old stuff) about this crazy and exciting hobby of ours. Cut the bullshit and get to the heart of the matter. Less shit-flinging and theory-wank. More settings, and adventures, and NPCs, and cool ideas, and reviews, and other goodies.

Sorry if this post comes across as dopey hippie stuff. Just my 2c.