In Star Wars, the technology has essentially been the same for tens of millennia. The differences in - say - a spaceship from 5000 years ago and a current New Republic ship would be one of style, not substance. In the universe, there have been only two really different technologies developed to fruition, the Death Star weapon technology implemented by the Empire, and the Starkiller Base weapon technology implemented by the First Order.
An argument that technologies have merely naturally plateaued is invalid, because all technologies plateauing at the same time is immensely unlikely, and by holographic tech, which is frankly primitive. So why has technological progress stopped?
Some ideas I have had:
- Functional illiteracy discourages actual science. The only scientist I know of in the setting is Jyn Erso's father Galen, who invented the Death Star technology.
- Droids build droids, and everything else. People don't know how any more. They know how to operate, and repair, but not create.
- Being whipsawed between Sith and Jedi every so often can't help...
- The social setting is also extraordinarily static, and discourages change. Apparently Republics are for inter-world governments, not world-governments! All those princes and princesses are protecting their legacy. Primogeniture and feudal rights for the win!
- The brutally stupid economics of Star Wars - trade by smugglers? Really? - won't permit real innovation to take hold.
Any other thoughts?
Quote from: flyingmice;1021577In Star Wars, the technology has essentially been the same for tens of millennia. The differences in - say - a spaceship from 5000 years ago and a current New Republic ship would be one of style, not substance. In the universe, there have been only two really different technologies developed to fruition, the Death Star weapon technology implemented by the Empire, and the Starkiller Base weapon technology implemented by the First Order.
An argument that technologies have merely naturally plateaued is invalid, because all technologies plateauing at the same time is immensely unlikely, and by holographic tech, which is frankly primitive. So why has technological progress stopped?
Some ideas I have had:
- Functional illiteracy discourages actual science. The only scientist I know of in the setting is Jyn Erso's father Galen, who invented the Death Star technology.
- Droids build droids, and everything else. People don't know how any more. They know how to operate, and repair, but not create.
- Being whipsawed between Sith and Jedi every so often can't help...
- The social setting is also extraordinarily static, and discourages change. Apparently Republics are for inter-world governments, not world-governments! All those princes and princesses are protecting their legacy. Primogeniture and feudal rights for the win!
Any other thoughts?
I think in part it's that mature technologies improve slowly. The repulsor lift and drives have been around for a long time and there's not really anywhere to go with them. Gradual improvements in performance and efficiency don't show up on the big screen but there does seem to be enough progress for an arms race with the latest fighter always being just a hair better than the last one. One thing I love about the prequels is the slow transition from beautiful and elegant designs to utilitarian ones as the war progresses. Those Trade Federation repulsor tanks that can be taken out by an incompetent Gungan with a bomba don't show up after that battle. Really, I still think it's obvious that nobody had fought an actual war in so long that nobody really knew how to go about it any more. Another thing that seems clear is that repulsor lift isn't efficient enough to carry heavy armour yet, but it's an improvement I'd expect to see eventually.
But if you want another reason, a burearatic conspiracy with a secret agency aimed at suppressing technological progress might also work.
Because it's a bunch of movies about zap guns and laser swords, not speculative technological fiction.
Quote from: David Johansen;1021583I think in part it's that mature technologies improve slowly. The repulsor lift and drives have been around for a long time and there's not really anywhere to go with them. Gradual improvements in performance and efficiency don't show up on the big screen but there does seem to be enough progress for an arms race with the latest fighter always being just a hair better than the last one. One thing I love about the prequels is the slow transition from beautiful and elegant designs to utilitarian ones as the war progresses. Those Trade Federation repulsor tanks that can be taken out by an incompetent Gungan with a bomba don't show up after that battle. Really, I still think it's obvious that nobody had fought an actual war in so long that nobody really knew how to go about it any more. Another thing that seems clear is that repulsor lift isn't efficient enough to carry heavy armour yet, but it's an improvement I'd expect to see eventually.
But if you want another reason, a burearatic conspiracy with a secret agency aimed at suppressing technological progress might also work.
Hi David!
Well, they have had Holographic tech for milennia as well, and that is still primitive. Also, repulsor tech can lift a space ship but not a tank? That makes no sense at all! Mass is mass! :D
BTW, Gronan: I am well aware that the the tech stasis is entirely due to Lucas' fuzzy-brained romantic hippy ideals, but I have to base my game in that universe, so I'm talking about in-universe reasons! :D
Quote from: flyingmice;1021577- Functional illiteracy discourages actual science. The only scientist I know of in the setting is Jyn Erso's father Galen, who invented the Death Star technology.
In one of the prequels (AotC I think) we see Poggle the Lesser with a hologram of the Death Star so presumably some of the unnamed Geonosians we see in the prequel films are the Geonosian scientists who designed the Death Star. And outside of the films we see a lot more scientists in the Extended Universe novels.
While the technology doesn't seem to change radically we do seem to see some significant design changes as far as appearance. For example over a fairly shot time frame look at the different appearances of the streamlined art-decoesque Naboo fighters, variable wing ARC and X-Wing fighters, fixed wing Y-wing and A-wing fighters, the really odd-ball B-wing fighter, and the straight and bent solar panel equipped versions of TIE fighters. Also notice the change from non-hyperspace capable fighters and the very few Jump-ring equipped Jedi fighters in the Clone Wars era to the fully jump capable Rebel fighters in ANH and RotJ.
Quote from: flyingmice;1021577- The social setting is also extraordinarily static, and discourages change.
This combined with the idea that technologies like blasters and hyperspace are fully mature technologies with little or no room left for further advancement are my go-to explanations. If I feel the need for an explanation.
Mostly I just take the technological quirks as a key underlying aspect of the setting. Millennia old empires with little or no cultural and technological change are often a staple of a certain genre of single planet fantasy (see Tolkien for another example). Star Wars is a similar fantasy story but writ on a galactic space opera scale rather than limited to a single planet.
Quote from: Bren;1021587While the technology doesn't seem to change radically we do seem to see some significant design changes as far as appearance. For example over a fairly shot time frame look at the different appearances of the streamlined art-decoesque Naboo fighters, variable wing ARC and X-Wing fighters, fixed wing Y-wing and A-wing fighters, the really odd-ball B-wing fighter, and the straight and bent solar panel equipped versions of TIE fighters. Also notice the change from non-hyperspace capable fighters and the very few Jump-ring equipped Jedi fighters in the Clone Wars era to the fully jump capable Rebel fighters in ANH and RotJ.
This is what I meant by "style not substance" in the OP. Giant capital ships are a concept that came into fashion just before the Clone Wars. Before that, the concept of capital ships was smaller, faster, and more of 'em. The changes in design aesthetics are really cool, and understood, but they aren't technologically driven.
I like the idea of droids only having the know-how to make things, the rest of the hoi poloi simply know how to use them. Also wonder how much the average person in the SW setting cares about improved tech? Their lives seem to be pretty good already. Even the lowest of the low seem to have a droid or two.
I fall more into the line of considering Star Wars to be more of a fairy tale and try not to look too hard at it:)
Quote from: flyingmice;1021586Hi David!
Well, they have had Holographic tech for milennia as well, and that is still primitive. Also, repulsor tech can lift a space ship but not a tank? That makes no sense at all! Mass is mass! :D
BTW, Gronan: I am well aware that the the tech stasis is entirely due to Lucas' fuzzy-brained romantic hippy ideals, but I have to base my game in that universe, so I'm talking about in-universe reasons! :D
I found it much, much easier to recruit players who are willing to go along with the universe's conceits than try to explain them.:D Same with any setting, actually.
Quote from: RunningLaser;1021591Even the lowest of the low seem to have a droid or two.
Maybe this is true of humans but it doesn't seem to be true for a lot of the alien species. We don't see droids among the Gungans or the Geonosians nor do we see many droids (any droids?) other than C-3PO and R2-D2 in Jabba's entourage.
But if the human culture is the dominant culture in the Star Wars galaxy then perhaps owning droids is like owning slaves and perhaps the fact of ownership limits technological innovation. Most of the biosentients end up as slave owners and slave managers rather than engineeers or researchers while having droids as doctors (2-1B), engineers (R-series astromechs), and such may limit opportunities for innovation from the actual technical expert doers who are mostly just following their programming and as de facto slaves have little incentive to innovate even if they have the ability to do so.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1021593I found it much, much easier to recruit players who are willing to go along with the universe's conceits than try to explain them.:D Same with any setting, actually.
True, but I think what flying mice is doing here is part of his world building process and for many of us (some) world building precedes our recruiting.
Quote from: RunningLaser;1021591I like the idea of droids only having the know-how to make things, the rest of the hoi poloi simply know how to use them. Also wonder how much the average person in the SW setting cares about improved tech? Their lives seem to be pretty good already. Even the lowest of the low seem to have a droid or two.
I fall more into the line of considering Star Wars to be more of a fairy tale and try not to look too hard at it:)
I imagine the hoi polloi probably had very nice lives. Luke Skywalker, a moisture-farm boy on the ass end of the universe had a speeder, some droids, and a skyhopper repulsor-lift flying vehicle. :D
OTOH, Rey was pretty damned poor.
Quote from: Bren;1021596Maybe this is true of humans but it doesn't seem to be true for a lot of the alien species. We don't see droids among the Gungans or the Geonosians nor do we see many droids (any droids?) other than C-3PO and R2-D2 in Jabba's entourage.
But if the human culture is the dominant culture in the Star Wars galaxy then perhaps owning droids is like owning slaves and perhaps the fact of ownership limits technological innovation. Most of the biosentients end up as slave owners and slave managers rather than engineeers or researchers while having droids as doctors (2-1B), engineers (R-series astromechs), and such may limit opportunities for innovation from the actual technical expert doers who are mostly just following their programming and as de facto slaves have little incentive to innovate even if they have the ability to do so.
Yes, being a slave owner/manager or being a slave probably did little to fire up one's creativity. Agreed, Bren!
Quote from: Bren;1021597True, but I think what flying mice is doing here is part of his world building process and for many of us (some) world building precedes our recruiting.
For me, it's more of a "world building never actually ends" thing. The more I understand the setting, the better I can react to the crazy tricks my players pull! :D
Oh, sure, I get all that. But as much as I love Star Wars, and I do, probably more than any 62 year old man should (I have my own Jedi robes and lightsaber, even) it is, quite honestly, a universe that unravels quickly and easily once you start picking at the loose threads. Much like Flash Gordon, which inspired it. I mean, guys shooting hand weapons at War Rocket Ajax is silly. But it's hella fun as a game.
Like D&D. In the OD&D rules, it explicitly says monsters can see in the dark, but lose that ability if hired by PCs. It makes no FUCKING sense at all as an in-universe law, but it adds a fun challenge to the game.
I personally find embracing the silly helps.
Quote from: flyingmice;1021604OTOH, Rey was pretty damned poor.
When the kid from Tattooine says your home planet is "pretty much nowhere," you KNOW you're out in the sticks!
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1021620When the kid from Tattooine says your home planet is "pretty much nowhere," you KNOW you're out in the sticks!
That was
exactly what popped into my mind! :D
Maybe technology has limits.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1021627Maybe technology has limits.
Hi Kyle!
Maybe, but holography hasn't reached them... :D
Quote from: flyingmice;1021604OTOH, Rey was pretty damned poor.
Very true. Her entire inventory of possessions at the start of the film is, so far as we ever see, one set of clothes, her staff, climbing gear, canteen, a few tools, her... vehicle, and a sleeping mat. I'd call her dirt poor, but having some actual dirt would be a step up.
And a hand made doll, IIRC!
True. Her cooking apparatus seems to be part of the AT-AT she calls home.
Quote from: Whitewings;1021639True. Her cooking apparatus seems to be part of the AT-AT she calls home.
Yep! That's what I assumed! :D
Quote from: flyingmice;1021586Hi David!
Well, they have had Holographic tech for milennia as well, and that is still primitive. Also, repulsor tech can lift a space ship but not a tank? That makes no sense at all! Mass is mass! :D
Not if the repulsor lift takes enough power to make your tank slower than it would be with wheels or legs.
The holographic stuff seems primitive but they might just find the data bills are lower if you just do monochrome and since the Republic voted down net neutrality any affordable plan gets coopted and interrupted frequently.
This is a pretty common argument. But really, what would people want in technology beyond what exists in Star Wars?
They have space travel perfected to the point where it's cheap and easy for virtually anyone to fly to another planet in their own starship. And traveling great distances, like outside the galaxy, seems to be no big deal. They have robots that are sentient. They can seemingly cure any medical problem.
But because they don't have iPhones and don't stare at them like zombies their technology is stagnant? It's like that episodes of the Simpsons where they are abducted by Kodos and Kang (aliens) and they show the Simpsons a video game. "Hey, that's just Pong. Get with the times, man." says Bart
"Anyone from a species that has mastered intergalactic travel, raise your hand" retorts Kodos (or Kang)
As to improvements in performance, well, again, they probably can't improve it further. Compare an 1960s GT-40 to a modern one. The modern one isn't any faster.
This quote from Harry Lime in
The Third Man came to mind:
QuoteLike the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.
Going by the movies (leaving out comics, toys, video games, etc), there hasn't been a major war or upheaval in a thousand years, so the Galaxy Far Far Away was probably very Swiss.
Quote from: Bren;1021597True, but I think what flying mice is doing here is part of his world building process and for many of us (some) world building precedes our recruiting.
That "world" comes already built.
Quote from: David Johansen;1021646Not if the repulsor lift takes enough power to make your tank slower than it would be with wheels or legs.
The holographic stuff seems primitive but they might just find the data bills are lower if you just do monochrome and since the Republic voted down net neutrality any affordable plan gets coopted and interrupted frequently.
Those holographic messages can travel across the galaxy fast enough to have real time conversations, so they're the exact opposite of primitive. As for repulsor-lift tanks, they have those in the Prequels but they're much smaller and flimsier than the walkers.
There is one big factor that is being overlooked.
The Force. And those that can REALLY use it.
The Force itself may be keeping things from advancing too far. Who knows why. But one is likely that after some point you start to get into the insane Lensman level wars where you are throwing planets through hyperspace at eachother or making solar beam cannons by lining up planets to use stars as lasers.
Then there are the force users, often Dark side ones, who can literally blanket the galaxy with their will to some degree sufficient to very subtly cloud precognitive abilities and who knows what else. And then the Force itself turns right around and clouds the Dark sides ability and its not hard to see a cyclic process that keeps things at a certain level.
But Id lay odds that it is the Force itself trying to prevent things from escalating to Lensman level.
And a contributor is likely both the distances involved and the somewhat fractious nature of the various races on one side and the seemingly utter lack of interest in advancing tech for others.
Quote from: Omega;1021669There is one big factor that is being overlooked.
The Force. And those that can REALLY use it.
A wizard did it. ;)
Quote from: Elfdart;1021665That "world" comes already built.
And because of that I understand it completely, because they always tell all about the "WHY"...
QuoteThose holographic messages can travel across the galaxy fast enough to have real time conversations, so they're the exact opposite of primitive. As for repulsor-lift tanks, they have those in the Prequels but they're much smaller and flimsier than the walkers.
"Help me Obi-wan Kenobi, you're my only hope" - that was beamed across the galaxy? I thought it was locally recorded by a droid. Such excellent quality! :D
A "WHY" would be "Perhaps they generally recorded holos with minimum resolution and color so they can be transmitted real time across the galaxy, whether or not they are doing so! Full resolution, solidity, and color would be too slow."
Look, Elfart, I love the setting. I love the movies. I'm not putting Star Wars down, so you don't need to defend it. And you probably don't GM like I do, but I know the "what" about the setting. I'm trying to understand the "WHY" so I can extrapolate when I am running it. Lots of people have come up with lots of interesting "WHY"s here in this thread. This is just great!
A particularly cynical take on the Jedi Council could have them deliberately resisting and suppressing technological development.
Omega - that idea is not unreasonable. Thank you! :D
Quote from: David Johansen;1021675A particularly cynical take on the Jedi Council could have them deliberately resisting and suppressing technological development.
That would not be unreasonable as well, David. If you notice, the two big tech jumps I mentioned took place under the Empire and the First Order. The Jedi are more than a bit Liuddite, I think. :D
Quote from: Bren;1021672A midichlorian did it. ;)
Fixed that for you. :D
I've probably told the story of my scientist character trolling Darth Vadar a million times. "Choking me only proves you are a charlatan! A tractor beam projector in your glove proves nothing! There's no such thing as the force you hack!" The poor inexperienced GM didn't know what to do. :
I think you posted this in the wrong thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?38410-Your-Silliest-Character-Death&p=1021093&viewfull=1#post1021093). ;)
Quote from: David Johansen;1021689I've probably told the story of my scientist character trolling Darth Vadar a million times. "Choking me only proves you are a charlatan! A tractor beam projector in your glove proves nothing! There's no such thing as the force you hack!" The poor inexperienced GM didn't know what to do. :
Try that with an EXPERIENCED GM! :D
Quote from: David Johansen;1021689I've probably told the story of my scientist character trolling Darth Vadar a million times. "Choking me only proves you are a charlatan! A tractor beam projector in your glove proves nothing! There's no such thing as the force you hack!" The poor inexperienced GM didn't know what to do. :
" I find your lack of faith disturbing." *CRUNCH!*
Darth Vadar couldn't be drawn into a debate about proof? Go figure :D
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1021713" I find your lack of faith disturbing." *CRUNCH!*
Absolutely! He would find it
very disturbing! :D
A possible reason that is rolling around in my head, is a lack of meaningful competitiveness. Lets say someone wanted to get into the cloning business. Now the galaxy knows that the best cloners are the Kaminoans on Kamino just past the Rishi Maze, you just can't beat them in price or product! So you don't even try because it is believed to be a wasted effort, instead the new cloner business tried to just become very very good at a niche market in the cloning business - like cloned meat for food or replacement organs, leaving the major market share of cloning to the Kaminoans..
Does that make sense? I hope that I am explaining myself clearly.
Quote from: jeff37923;1021742A possible reason that is rolling around in my head, is a lack of meaningful competitiveness. Lets say someone wanted to get into the cloning business. Now the galaxy knows that the best cloners are the Kaminoans on Kamino just past the Rishi Maze, you just can't beat them in price or product! So you don't even try because it is believed to be a wasted effort, instead the new cloner business tried to just become very very good at a niche market in the cloning business - like cloned meat for food or replacement organs, leaving the major market share of cloning to the Kaminoans..
Does that make sense? I hope that I am explaining myself clearly.
Yes, it does make sense. Market intimidation is real.
BTW, I don't think there is A reason. I really think there are many reasons, each one supporting the others, so that the people of the galaxy don't even see it. It's just a natural thing to them.
Which reminds me, my final words (I fully expected to die) were going to be "the burden of proof lies with the person making the exceptional
It occurs to me that despite his technical talents, Darth Vader never really comes off as particularly bright. Not that he's stupid but he's not really all that sharp either.
Quote from: David Johansen;1021757Which reminds me, my final words (I fully expected to die) were going to be "the burden of proof lies with the person making the exceptional
It occurs to me that despite his technical talents, Darth Vader never really comes off as particularly bright. Not that he's stupid but he's not really all that sharp either.
Moments like these make me surprisingly sympathetic to Mr. Vader... It this case, I fully understand and applaud the force choke... :D
You don't need to be that bright when you have that high a midiclorian count! :D
I suspect Vader was somewhere on the autistic spectrum. Very good with devices and things, a touch clunky and obsessive with people...
Back in the WEG Star Wars days I had a couple annoying characters too.
Rathquil Blackhood was an outlaw wannabe with a shiny Michael Jackson pleather jacket. He was the son of an imperial governor who was on the run because he got into a fire fight in a star destroyer's bathroom while Darth Vader was in one of the stalls. The GM nixed that background but Rathquil went around telling everyone that anyhow.
Belt Sandar was a washed up action hero actor with a drinking problem. He was big, buff, strong, and handsome, could fly a fighter or do minor medical stuff due to roles he'd played but he wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed.
It's amazing how adverse some GMs are to killing characters :D
Heck the guy who GMed the scientist who heckled Darth Vader also ran GURPS Mars Attacks. I made a big, fat, obnoxious American tourist in a Hawaii shirt and couldn't get killed for jumping in front of death rays.
Quote from: David Johansen;1021766Back in the WEG Star Wars days I had a couple annoying characters too.
Are you bragging or complaining, David? :D
QuoteRathquil Blackhood was an outlaw wannabe with a shiny Michael Jackson pleather jacket. He was the son of an imperial governor who was on the run because he got into a fire fight in a star destroyer's bathroom while Darth Vader was in one of the stalls. The GM nixed that background but Rathquil went around telling everyone that anyhow.
Belt Sandar was a washed up action hero actor with a drinking problem. He was big, buff, strong, and handsome, could fly a fighter or do minor medical stuff due to roles he'd played but he wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed.
It's amazing how adverse some GMs are to killing characters :D
Heck the guy who GMed the scientist who heckled Darth Vader also ran GURPS Mars Attacks. I made a big, fat, obnoxious American tourist in a Hawaii shirt and couldn't get killed for jumping in front of death rays.
The current leader of the Stellar Nights - the PC organization in my current Star Wars-ish game - is a female action holostar who was captured by the First Order who then broke out by stealing Kylo Ren's personal shuttle with four disgruntled stormtroopers while everyone was distracted by Finn and Poe stealing the TIE.sf fighter. I think action holovid stars are a neglected PC source in Star Wars games!
Quote from: flyingmice;1021577Any other thoughts?
Are the Death Star and Starkiller Base new technologies or existing technologies built on a massive scale? What are they but a bigger blaster capable of destroying planets. My take on it would be that technology in Star Wars have matured and hit fundamental physical limits long ago. Now it all about application and engineering.
Quote from: estar;1021782Are the Death Star and Starkiller Base new technologies or existing technologies built on a massive scale? What are they but a bigger blaster capable of destroying planets. My take on it would be that technology in Star Wars have matured and hit fundamental physical limits long ago. Now it all about application and engineering.
Hi Estar!
The Death Star technology is combining and controlling many large beam weapons into a single focused beam more potent than it's parts. That is fundamentally different from just a big blaster. The Starkiller Base technology is A: pulling all the energy from a sun, and B: sending it through a hyperspace tear wherever you want instantly. That is also fundamentally different.
They needed to put Starkiller base on a planet so they could have enough cattle on hand to provide its primary fuel source.
And yes I'm bragging but damnit I wish more GMs would run with fun character concepts instead of freezing like a deer in the headlights. Like Lamorek DeGalis, my Shadow Run character with shinining full plate armour and a well polished motorcycle who approached everything with impeccable manners and discretion. To whom, after running a single session of Mercurial, declared, "you've ruined the whole campaign!"
As for Belt Sandar he was inspired by the question, "why is Buck Rogers such a big muscular guy?" I wanted an iconic space hero but I needed a background that would explain his abilities.
The society is in fact in decline, technologies that they had thousands of years ago has been lost, the amount of worlds they had contact with has also declined. But it's so big that instead of falling in a few or even a thousand years, it's taking so much longer.
very few races know how to make hyperdrives. Historically in Star Wars there are elder races (and yeah - they get to where we're going full-on Cthulhu in The Old Republic) that were radically more advanced in some capacities (like the Infinite Empire of the Rakata) - that had full on Star Gates etc.
Star Wars is very much a bunch of galactic cultures in varying stages of technological stagnation/progression/implosion.
Quote from: jeff37923;1021742Does that make sense? I hope that I am explaining myself clearly.
So all products are niche products and industries are niche industries? Which causes technology to be narrowly focused rather than widespread which maybe retards sharing information and the development of new or significantly improved broadly applicable technologies.
Star Wars doesn't seem to have anything like the Internet. We see data being shared physically (Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, and the data cartridge that Jyn and Cassian had to physically pull out of storage) rather than shared electronically or virtually. Holograms can be broadcast live, but we can infer that dense technical data probably cannot. This makes it more difficult for scientists on different planets and even of different species to share new discoveries to spark the invention of more new discoveries.
Quote from: David Johansen;1021766Belt Sandar was a washed up action hero actor with a drinking problem. He was big, buff, strong, and handsome, could fly a fighter or do minor medical stuff due to roles he'd played but he wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed.
I love this character concept and the punny name. :cool:
Quote from: flyingmice;1021777I think action holovid stars are a neglected PC source in Star Wars games!
WEG's Template's collection did have a holostar of some kind, but I think she was more pop musician than action movie here.
The inability to protect proprietary technology might be the reason there's no internet. Hacking from the other side of the galaxy might also explain the need for big, physical data archives. Though, we often forget that the "Cloud" is a number of huge, physical facilities, not some kind of magical aether.
From a meta perspective, of course it's because The Phantom Menace is set in the nineteen fifties, Clone wars is set in the nineteen sixties, and A New Hope in the nineteen seventies.
Okay before I begin I must say I am rather surprised that I seem to have A beater grasp of starwars tech and it's eccentricitys then is normal.
Also I haven't seen any of the new movies and have only seen some of the 2nd trilogy once but I have spent to much time reading wookiepeida as to not be bored (and I'm not even that big on starwars).
Quote from: flyingmice;1021577In Star Wars, the technology has essentially been the same for tens of millennia. The differences in - say - a spaceship from 5000 years ago and a current New Republic ship would be one of style, not substance. In the universe, there have been only two really different technologies developed to fruition, the Death Star weapon technology implemented by the Empire, and the Starkiller Base weapon technology implemented by the First Order.
That's actually not true is you look at the actual ability of various ships and weapons in the kotor games they are actually notablely lesser then equivalent gear in the 1st 2 trilogys but they function in A roughly equal capacity do to technological advancement. (ie that blaster is weaker but so is the armor so it works out roughly the same)
Quote from: flyingmice;1021577An argument that technologies have merely naturally plateaued is invalid, because all technologies plateauing at the same time is immensely unlikely, and by holographic tech, which is frankly primitive. So why has technological progress stopped?
Some ideas I have had:
- Functional illiteracy discourages actual science. The only scientist I know of in the setting is Jyn Erso's father Galen, who invented the Death Star technology.
Not so much function but long term use you see just because you can build some thing in A given place don't mean that they can practically repair it
When it breaks in the location it is being shipped to. So they continue to produce and sell what would be drastically out dated tech to ship to such planets.
Then you have the fact that certain kinds of machinery simply fall to well in to A "good enough and cheap enough" class where there no real presser to develop them in any farther in any major capacity.(this is already happening to some degree in real life )(also no point in making it if you can't sell it and make A profit)
A good example is the back story to C3po's comment about programing "Binary load lifters" as A binary load lifter in actually another droid made to move cargo and freight containers but they are very stupid and can not under stand spoken language they can only under stand binary and need to be supervised. So you take A reasonably intelligent droid like astro mech or proticall droid that you give your instructions to and have them "program" the load lifter and supervise it A single droid like c3po could manage maybe A dozen or so such units. Now the load lifter has gone unchanged for thousands of years for the very simple reason that there's no real reason to change it what draw backs there are simply arn't worth the cost to the company's or the buyers to work out so nothing changes.
Quote- Droids build droids, and everything else. People don't know how any more. They know how to operate, and repair, but not create.
Sorry but this seems to be A pretty common misconception there are plenty of people who understand the tech more then well enough. Take A look at all the mish mosh droids when you start putting parts that where not even designed in the same century together you are creating quite A a lot. Also theirs actually quite A lot of manual and skilled labor still around in SW even for meat bags like my self it's just not showcased. Theirs even A market for customized ships and droids(again creating).
Quote- Being whipsawed between Sith and Jedi every so often can't help...
- The social setting is also extraordinarily static, and discourages change. Apparently Republics are for inter-world governments, not world-governments! All those princes and princesses are protecting their legacy. Primogeniture and feudal rights for the win!
- The brutally stupid economics of Star Wars - trade by smugglers? Really? - won't permit real innovation to take hold.
Any other thoughts?
For what it's worth smuggler and trader seem to be pretty interchangeable with the only real difference being weather the cargo is legal or not.
Quote from: jeff37923;1021742A possible reason that is rolling around in my head, is a lack of meaningful competitiveness. Lets say someone wanted to get into the cloning business. Now the galaxy knows that the best cloners are the Kaminoans on Kamino just past the Rishi Maze, you just can't beat them in price or product! So you don't even try because it is believed to be a wasted effort, instead the new cloner business tried to just become very very good at a niche market in the cloning business - like cloned meat for food or replacement organs, leaving the major market share of cloning to the Kaminoans..
Does that make sense? I hope that I am explaining myself clearly.
Just A quick add in here but after An attempted over throwing of the empire with A clone army based on Kamino the empire basicly makes any and all glance at the idea of cloneing for any reason A bomb them back in to the stone age offense.
Quote from: flyingmice;1021674"Help me Obi-wan Kenobi, you're my only hope" - that was beamed across the galaxy? I thought it was locally recorded by a droid. Such excellent quality! :D
A "WHY" would be "Perhaps they generally recorded holos with minimum resolution and color so they can be transmitted real time across the galaxy, whether or not they are doing so! Full resolution, solidity, and color would be too slow."
Look, Elfart, I love the setting. I love the movies. I'm not putting Star Wars down, so you don't need to defend it. And you probably don't GM like I do, but I know the "what" about the setting. I'm trying to understand the "WHY" so I can extrapolate when I am running it. Lots of people have come up with lots of interesting "WHY"s here in this thread. This is just great!
I was referring to the hologram conversation between Vader and the Emperor in
The Empire Strikes Back.
Quote from: Bren;1021852So all products are niche products and industries are niche industries? Which causes technology to be narrowly focused rather than widespread which maybe retards sharing information and the development of new or significantly improved broadly applicable technologies.
Star Wars doesn't seem to have anything like the Internet. We see data being shared physically (Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, and the data cartridge that Jyn and Cassian had to physically pull out of storage) rather than shared electronically or virtually. Holograms can be broadcast live, but we can infer that dense technical data probably cannot. This makes it more difficult for scientists on different planets and even of different species to share new discoveries to spark the invention of more new discoveries.
My idea is more along the lines of an analogy to today's smartphone software market. Apple and Google have the OS side all tied up and nobody can compete with those two giants on OS. So an entrepreneurial start-up is unlikely to try to squeeze into that part of the market and compete, instead they would go to the part of the market that is wide open - like Apps. A start-up could gain a foothold in the Apps market and still be competitive without being overshadowed by the heavy hitters in the OS market.
Quote from: Bren;1021852So all products are niche products and industries are niche industries? Which causes technology to be narrowly focused rather than widespread which maybe retards sharing information and the development of new or significantly improved broadly applicable technologies.
Star Wars doesn't seem to have anything like the Internet. We see data being shared physically (Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, and the data cartridge that Jyn and Cassian had to physically pull out of storage) rather than shared electronically or virtually. Holograms can be broadcast live, but we can infer that dense technical data probably cannot. This makes it more difficult for scientists on different planets and even of different species to share new discoveries to spark the invention of more new discoveries.
This sounds right, even though if they can pump a hologram stream across the galaxy, they can pump any data - so that would infer that it's not that they can't, more that they don't or won't. Interesting! :D
Quote from: jeff37923;1021742A possible reason that is rolling around in my head, is a lack of meaningful competitiveness. Lets say someone wanted to get into the cloning business. Now the galaxy knows that the best cloners are the Kaminoans on Kamino just past the Rishi Maze, you just can't beat them in price or product! So you don't even try because it is believed to be a wasted effort, instead the new cloner business tried to just become very very good at a niche market in the cloning business - like cloned meat for food or replacement organs, leaving the major market share of cloning to the Kaminoans..
Does that make sense? I hope that I am explaining myself clearly.
Yep. That could be a contributor too.
Another one may be that there is a sort of social lockout of certain technologies simmilar to how Star Trek has a sort of ban on robotics and especially nanotech. Possibly cloning tech as well.
Another factor may be incompatible techs. Can a Correllian D7 blaster use the power cells from a Tattoine L5 blaster? Though it looks somewhat like there is alot of compatibility. Possibly enforced for trade purtposes. Harder to trade power cells if they dont fit standard tech and probably dont design tech that cant take a standard cell. Either that or someone would be making a ton of credits selling adaptors.
Quote from: David Johansen;1021757Which reminds me, my final words (I fully expected to die) were going to be "the burden of proof lies with the person making the exceptional
It occurs to me that despite his technical talents, Darth Vader never really comes off as particularly bright. Not that he's stupid but he's not really all that sharp either.
Vader comes across as technologically savvy. Very. But he is socially stunted and grows up under the influence of a sith lord. Palpatines been mentally prepping the kid for a chunk of his development.
So he can scratch build a sophisticated droid and can understand droid machine language and is apparently a darn good mechanic. But hes totally out of his league socially.
Quote from: flyingmice;1021910This sounds right, even though if they can pump a hologram stream across the galaxy, they can pump any data - so that would infer that it's not that they can't, more that they don't or won't.
Or that the ratio between holographic images and text/blueprints is different for Star Wars tech than is the ratio between video images and text/blueprints for our current earth tech.
Quote from: Omega;1021924So he can scratch build a sophisticated droid and can understand droid machine language and is apparently a darn good mechanic. But hes totally out of his league socially.
His romantic dialog kind of supports your idea. :D
Quote from: Omega;1021923Another factor may be incompatible techs. Can a Correllian D7 blaster use the power cells from a Tattoine L5 blaster? Though it looks somewhat like there is alot of compatibility. Possibly enforced for trade purtposes. Harder to trade power cells if they dont fit standard tech and probably dont design tech that cant take a standard cell. Either that or someone would be making a ton of credits selling adaptors.
It can get even worse with alien species differences. Gungans (Ptooie!) have the equivalent of shield generators and ion weapons, but the designs are radically different from what humans use as standard. I can't say that they would be compatible even if they did have the same basic function.
The Gungans are interesting in that they've clearly tried to update their traditional weapons with modern technology. I can't imagine they've ever fought a real war with that stuff before.
A lot of the advancements have been pretty low key in terms of screen time. Hyperspace Tracking gets a short mention in Rogue One and then becomes the B plot of The Last Jedi but apart from "Wow they can do that now?" we don't get anyone running around screaming about how it is such a great new technology. The Resistance apparently ditched Y-Wings (apart from the one mission in the Black Squadron comics) as a fighter-bomber and adopted WW2 style strategic bombers in their fleet. The Death Star laser got re-purposed into a battering ram. The First Order seems to have taken Thrawn's TIE Defender prototype and adapted many of the improvements into their base TIE fighters and ditched the ridiculous wing design. No idea why Hux didn't bother building/bringing any Interdictors with him as we saw developed on Rebels. The Dreadnoughts's main guns seem to be new, more powerful orbital bombardment cannons not present on any other ships (mainly due to being less effective in space).
Technology doesn't always leap forward despite what it feels like right now (although the last 4 iPhone releases suggest otherwise) but incremental changes and new design concepts do count. After all humanity had known about ship's masts for ages but it was only new designs that led to the Age of Sail -- new ways of thinking about old ideas.
Quote from: Omega;1021923Yep. That could be a contributor too.
Another one may be that there is a sort of social lockout of certain technologies simmilar to how Star Trek has a sort of ban on robotics and especially nanotech. Possibly cloning tech as well.
Another factor may be incompatible techs. Can a Correllian D7 blaster use the power cells from a Tattoine L5 blaster? Though it looks somewhat like there is alot of compatibility. Possibly enforced for trade purtposes. Harder to trade power cells if they dont fit standard tech and probably dont design tech that cant take a standard cell. Either that or someone would be making a ton of credits selling adaptors.
And even if they do one thing that is likely is that they use different blaster gasses (there are over 50 common ones during the imperial era).(blaster gas is sort of like bullets for your blaster)
This all makes me think about tech fitting the setting. For example, while I like the idea of post-Cyberpunk, I also have a fond place in my heart for alternate future Cyberpunk, where technology resembles what the 80's thought the future would be like. Huge Laser Disks that hold Megabytes of information! And cell phones that can fit in your car!
The problem with advancing the tech in Star Wars is that it quickly loses the Star Wars feel. Full color holograms just wouldn't look right...
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1022301This all makes me think about tech fitting the setting. For example, while I like the idea of post-Cyberpunk, I also have a fond place in my heart for alternate future Cyberpunk, where technology resembles what the 80's thought the future would be like. Huge Laser Disks that hold Megabytes of information! And cell phones that can fit in your car!
The problem with advancing the tech in Star Wars is that it quickly loses the Star Wars feel. Full color holograms just wouldn't look right...
I don't have the slightest wish to advance the technology, Ratman! I just want to know why it isn't. :D
Quote from: flyingmice;1022311I don't have the slightest wish to advance the technology, Ratman! I just want to know why it isn't. :D
I know. :) It was just a brain fart.
I understand the urge to explain the tech stasis of Star Wars, and it can make interesting fodder for adventures. I just think it's a very small detail. Personally, I'm just fine with the notion that the Republic hit a certain plateau, for whatever reasons. Something-something lightsaber battle!
You have to admit, flyingmice, trying to explain the wacky tech assumptions of the Star Wars universe is kind of a Lovecraftian pursuit where you risk going mad the further you delve into the problem....
My NorCal convention group used to include a couple of scientists (one did fusion research, the other did "quantum muck"). Both only played fantasy RPGs for all the reasons in this thread. "Because...magic." was all they wanted from their hobby time, and both were SW fans.
One thing that stands out for me about SW tech is how well ancient stuff works and how easy it seems to jury rig junk into functional tech. That must say something about the underlying fundamentals of their tech.
I do like the idea that SW's universe has gotten so automated that aesthetics is all that's left for humans to change. AKA, tech has become fashion.
Quote from: jeff37923;1022329You have to admit, flyingmice, trying to explain the wacky tech assumptions of the Star Wars universe is kind of a Lovecraftian pursuit where you risk going mad the further you delve into the problem....
Well, that's my opinion as well. Eventually it becomes like pre-elliptical models of planetary orbits; you've got so many epicycles on epicycles on epicycles that the game isn't worth the candle.
Quote from: jeff37923;1022329You have to admit, flyingmice, trying to explain the wacky tech assumptions of the Star Wars universe is kind of a Lovecraftian pursuit where you risk going mad the further you delve into the problem....
I know, but I think I'm still sane... But then I would think that if I was mad, wouldn't I? :D
Quote from: Spinachcat;1022334My NorCal convention group used to include a couple of scientists (one did fusion research, the other did "quantum muck"). Both only played fantasy RPGs for all the reasons in this thread. "Because...magic." was all they wanted from their hobby time, and both were SW fans.
One thing that stands out for me about SW tech is how well ancient stuff works and how easy it seems to jury rig junk into functional tech. That must say something about the underlying fundamentals of their tech.
I do like the idea that SW's universe has gotten so automated that aesthetics is all that's left for humans to change. AKA, tech has become fashion.
I am very inclined to that viewpoint myself, Spinachcat! :D
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1022390Well, that's my opinion as well. Eventually it becomes like pre-elliptical models of planetary orbits; you've got so many epicycles on epicycles on epicycles that the game isn't worth the candle.
Geometry is good! I can handle lots of epicycles! :D
Quote from: flyingmice;1022409I know, but I think I'm still sane... But then I would think that if I was mad, wouldn't I? :D
"They said I was crazy! They said I was demented! And BOY, were they right!"
Also, you're not insane until you have an Igor working for you.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1022414"They said I was crazy! They said I was demented! And BOY, were they right!"
Also, you're not insane until you have an Igor working for you.
Yes master you called. :)
Quote from: kosmos1214;1022419Yes master you called. :)
Wait, wasn't your hump on the other side? :)
Quote from: David Johansen;1021675A particularly cynical take on the Jedi Council could have them deliberately resisting and suppressing technological development.
I sort of got that vibe myself.
They're very into protecting the status quo rather than making any real attempt to improve anything. They don't really care about the slave trade on various planets, but apparently do care about resolving trade disputes so that things can go back to normal. (it turned into an invasion - but they didn't know that at the time)
Quote from: jeff37923;1022420Wait, wasn't your hump on the other side? :)
What hump?
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1022523I sort of got that vibe myself.
They're very into protecting the status quo rather than making any real attempt to improve anything. They don't really care about the slave trade on various planets, but apparently do care about resolving trade disputes so that things can go back to normal. (it turned into an invasion - but they didn't know that at the time)
I think it was unintentional, but the scene in Attack of the Clones in the cantina with Zam Vessel is a great example of this. You're an ordinary bar patron having a few drinks. You hear gunfire and some weird sizzling sound, and there's somebody with an energy beam, some woman lying on the ground missing an arm, and some big punk in black clothes sayins "Jedi business, stay back." They drag the woman out into the alley, and ten minutes later the meat wagon shows up and hauls a corpse away and the Jedi are gone.
Sounds sinister as hell, actually.
Quote from: kosmos1214;1022419Yes master you called. :)
Very good.
By the way, your cousin Igor in Bonk said to say hello.
What critical want exists in the SW universe for which a very functional tech hasn't been developed? Tech advance solves a previously unsolved problem or makes things faster/cheaper. I can't really think of anything that qualifies for this except inserted plot devices.
Quote from: EOTB;1022584What critical want exists in the SW universe for which a very functional tech hasn't been developed? Tech advance solves a previously unsolved problem or makes things faster/cheaper. I can't really think of anything that qualifies for this except inserted plot devices.
Considering how poor many on the rim are - plenty apparently.
A few specifics which they definitely could use -
1. Autopilots
2. Shotguns apparently (block this Jedi scum!) or their blaster equivalents
3. True democracy instead of the oligarchy which "The Republic" was
4. Radar which is small/cheap enough for civilians (those sand people should NOT have been able to sneak up and/or kidnap people so easily)
5. Replicators (Earl Grey... hot) / Transporters / other Star Trek stuff
6. Artificial wombs (ex: Vorkosigan Saga) - no mothers dying because they stopped wanting to live
7. Faster planetary transport - with #1 to avoid crashes
To name a few
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1022607Considering how poor many on the rim are - plenty apparently.
A few specifics which they definitely could use -
1. Autopilots
2. Shotguns apparently (block this Jedi scum!) or their blaster equivalents
3. True democracy instead of the oligarchy which "The Republic" was
4. Radar which is small/cheap enough for civilians (those sand people should NOT have been able to sneak up and/or kidnap people so easily)
5. Replicators (Earl Grey... hot) / Transporters / other Star Trek stuff
6. Artificial wombs (ex: Vorkosigan Saga) - no mothers dying because they stopped wanting to live
7. Faster planetary transport - with #1 to avoid crashes
To name a few
1. They have it in 2 forms -- autopilots using the ships computers and droids
2. This type of stuff does exist in new canon but is not represented on screen. Mostly because apart from bombs this is kind of counter to the laser-sword samurai feel.
3. Again it exists in canon but usually on a planetary or regional basis. The Republic would be impossible to govern as a true democracy (even the USA isn't a democracy)
4. Exists but so does shitty screen/fiction writing. Also the region Luke was in would not be easy on radar due to the canyons.
5. Not Star Wars
6. Probably exists but apart from alien descriptions birth isn't really covered. We do know the Kaminoans used them for clones. I also reference the above shitty screen/fiction writing.
7. Huh? How fast do you need it to be? You can easily circumnavigate a world in an hour depending on traffic.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1022523I sort of got that vibe myself.
They're very into protecting the status quo rather than making any real attempt to improve anything. They don't really care about the slave trade on various planets, but apparently do care about resolving trade disputes so that things can go back to normal. (it turned into an invasion - but they didn't know that at the time)
It's made clear time and again that the Jedi work for the Senate. They're like cops who enforce the law, not government officials who make law. As for slavery, Tattooine is not part of the Republic, so the Jedi have no say in slavery laws there either.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1022607Considering how poor many on the rim are - plenty apparently.
A few specifics which they definitely could use -
1. Autopilots
2. Shotguns apparently (block this Jedi scum!) or their blaster equivalents
3. True democracy instead of the oligarchy which "The Republic" was
4. Radar which is small/cheap enough for civilians (those sand people should NOT have been able to sneak up and/or kidnap people so easily)
5. Replicators (Earl Grey... hot) / Transporters / other Star Trek stuff
6. Artificial wombs (ex: Vorkosigan Saga) - no mothers dying because they stopped wanting to live
7. Faster planetary transport - with #1 to avoid crashes
To name a few
1. Droid Pilots (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Pilot_droid) are totally a thing. Canonically, the Milennium Falcon is equipped with multiple R3 brains though I do not think any of those are used for piloting the ship, though they could. Easier to just let C-3PO fly.
2. Shotguns (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shotgun) do exist canonically. Trandoshans use them.
3. Good luck with that.
4.
Luke: 8 meters. 7, 6...
Owen: They can't be. That's inside the room.
Luke: It's reading right, man! Look!
Beru: Well then you're not reading it right!
Luke: 5 meters, man! What the hell? Oh shit...
5. Here's R2-D2 (https://gizmodo.com/5405276/confirmed-r2-d2-finally-discovered-in-star-trek) making a cameo in Star Trek Into Darkness.
6. An artificial womb is basically a Clone Pod (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Pod_(cloning)). Look at Jango, he went the Mini Me route. There's pretty much no reason an in vitro conceived offspring by grown with the exact same technology. It might even be able to gestate it at an accelerated rate. The above mentioned Kaminoans could probably do it, since they were able to do things like limit lifespan and implant semifleshy Inhibitor Chips (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Inhibitor_chip) at some stage of cloning. In comparison, just growing a natural offspring is child's play since they already know how to grow them.
7. Here's a canon blurb on Skylanes (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Skylane) with a note on Auto Navigation systems equipped on most air speeders. It also mentions the fact that Coruscant has taxis, whom have permission to take shortcuts out of lanes, often involving flying straight up and down. So if you need to be somewhere in a hurry, bring credits.
Losing the will to live doesn't even work in the real world. Eventually you get uncomfortable, need to eliminate wastes, get hungry, people find you and annoy you, it just isn't a thing. And Padme was never shown to be a weak and whiny character.
So, is there ever an explanation of why she really died? My own thought is that Anakin wished her dead and it did some kind of undetectable harm that the droid wasn't programmed to register. I don't think Palpatine really wanted her dead, she was the leverage he used to move the chosen one to the dark side. He even seems to have been a little fond of her. You never quite know how much of what he did or said was an act. Even so, it just rings false, and I'd like a better explanation. Maybe the midwife droid just annoyed her to death, that might cause you to lose the will to live, but you still wouldn't die of it.
She died from an overdose of Narrativium.
Quote from: David Johansen;1022938Losing the will to live doesn't even work in the real world. Eventually you get uncomfortable, need to eliminate wastes, get hungry, people find you and annoy you, it just isn't a thing. And Padme was never shown to be a weak and whiny character.
So, is there ever an explanation of why she really died? My own thought is that Anakin wished her dead and it did some kind of undetectable harm that the droid wasn't programmed to register. I don't think Palpatine really wanted her dead, she was the leverage he used to move the chosen one to the dark side. He even seems to have been a little fond of her. You never quite know how much of what he did or said was an act. Even so, it just rings false, and I'd like a better explanation. Maybe the midwife droid just annoyed her to death, that might cause you to lose the will to live, but you still wouldn't die of it.
(https://i.chzbgr.com/full/9119819008/hA1B1583F/)
Seriously, I chalk it up to 1. Fairy tale-ism. (Star Wars is partly fairy tale) and 2. Lucas having the romantic notions of a pre-teenager.
Of course, all of this is also the fault of the "Expanded Universe" crap.
If we go by the movies, all we know is that technology hasn't improved that much in a 30-year period of incredible chaos, repressive tyranny, and civil strife. That isn't confusing at all.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1023180Of course, all of this is also the fault of the "Expanded Universe" crap.
If we go by the movies, all we know is that technology hasn't improved that much in a 30-year period of incredible chaos, repressive tyranny, and civil strife. That isn't confusing at all.
Actually, prequels to The Last Jedi covers about 60 years, but your point is still valid.
Quote from: flyingmice;1023224Actually, prequels to The Last Jedi covers about 60 years, but your point is still valid.
If you have to read/watch another source (like a book) to explain a film, then the film is terrible.
Seems like there's new technology in the JJ Abrams verse... except I think it's generally due to JJ just wanting new-and-improved stuff for his films, and to one-up the other films, and/or just that as usual he doesn't really care about continuity or making sense, certainly not if it gets in the way of him having breathless ill-conceived nonsense happen at the pace (and in the manner) it occurs to him would be exciting.
e.g.:
* Deathstar-in-a-planet with ridiculously huge "trench" to riff on Death Star.
* "Starkiller" weapon with MIRV (Multiple Independently-targeted-and-guided Ridiculous Very-overpowered) ray/missile that can somehow accurately strike from another part of the galaxy, and that happens immediately despite being thousands of light-years away, and is seen in the sky at the same time by people in other star systems.
* Ability to of other ships run by scoundrels and bounty hunters to find and surprise and board a lost-for-years spaceship in deep space within minutes of it taking off.
* Ability to notice someone in a remote space bar and inform the First Order and have them show up from another star system within minutes.
* Ability of the Resistance in yet another system to also know to show up at that space bar a few minutes after that to rescue the people who were noticed.
* Guided anti-fighter missiles.
* Ability to cram two people into a TIE fighter, so there can be witty banter and a tail-gunner to shoot down those anti-fighter missiles.
* Ability of X-wings to half half-cylinder engine(?) devices replace full-cylinder devices.
* Ability of X-wings to fly like twitch video-game ships.
* Ability of one X-wing to one-shot all the turrets on one side of the surface of an entire ship that's supposedly larger than a Star Destroyer.
* Anti-light-sabre twirling club things.
* Magnetic beachball droids that can fight and pilot vehicles.
* Lightsabres with hilt blades.
* Ability to form viable attack plans on planet-sized battlestations without really having much plan because hey, a few of you have attacked death stars 30 years in the past.
* Shield systems that cover entire planets.
* Timing techniques that can be timed from another system by cocky pilots to bypass those planetary shields.
* One suit of armor that's actually blaster-proof.
* Tracking ships through hypserspace.
* Ability to kamikaze larger ships using hyperdrive.
...
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1023245If you have to read/watch another source (like a book) to explain a film, then the film is terrible.
?? WTF? What are you talking about? Who needs a book to explain a movie? What book? What movie?
If you want a fully fleshed out, living universe then yes reading the EU stuff is required. If you want to watch fun movies following a family of space wizards using laser samurai swords to fight evil then no the EU is not required.
Quote from: Skarg;1023250Seems like there's new technology in the JJ Abrams verse... except I think it's generally due to JJ just wanting new-and-improved stuff for his films, and to one-up the other films, and/or just that as usual he doesn't really care about continuity or making sense, certainly not if it gets in the way of him having breathless ill-conceived nonsense happen at the pace (and in the manner) it occurs to him would be exciting.
e.g.:
* Deathstar-in-a-planet with ridiculously huge "trench" to riff on Death Star.
* "Starkiller" weapon with MIRV (Multiple Independently-targeted-and-guided Ridiculous Very-overpowered) ray/missile that can somehow accurately strike from another part of the galaxy, and that happens immediately despite being thousands of light-years away, and is seen in the sky at the same time by people in other star systems.
* Ability to of other ships run by scoundrels and bounty hunters to find and surprise and board a lost-for-years spaceship in deep space within minutes of it taking off.
* Ability to notice someone in a remote space bar and inform the First Order and have them show up from another star system within minutes.
* Ability of the Resistance in yet another system to also know to show up at that space bar a few minutes after that to rescue the people who were noticed.
* Guided anti-fighter missiles.
* Ability to cram two people into a TIE fighter, so there can be witty banter and a tail-gunner to shoot down those anti-fighter missiles.
* Ability of X-wings to half half-cylinder engine(?) devices replace full-cylinder devices.
* Ability of X-wings to fly like twitch video-game ships.
* Ability of one X-wing to one-shot all the turrets on one side of the surface of an entire ship that's supposedly larger than a Star Destroyer.
* Anti-light-sabre twirling club things.
* Magnetic beachball droids that can fight and pilot vehicles.
* Lightsabres with hilt blades.
* Ability to form viable attack plans on planet-sized battlestations without really having much plan because hey, a few of you have attacked death stars 30 years in the past.
* Shield systems that cover entire planets.
* Timing techniques that can be timed from another system by cocky pilots to bypass those planetary shields.
* One suit of armor that's actually blaster-proof.
* Tracking ships through hypserspace.
* Ability to kamikaze larger ships using hyperdrive.
...
Now you are castigating Star Wars for being Star Wars! This is not The Martian! It's not even The Expanse! :D
The Starkiller base is not the same tech as the Death Star - neither the beam itself not the hyperspace targeting is Death Star tech. It's big and it's round, and there the similarity ends. "Ridiculous" is just a value judgement. The Death Star beam is basically many immensely powerful lightsaber or blaster beams wrapped around each other. The Starkiller weapon propagates in hyperspace and induces planets to explode from within, affecting their cores.
The ability of the destruction of the Hosnian system to be seen from other planets no where near the target simultaneously at least has a handwavium in-world explanation! Please do everyone the courtesy of pretending to believe it! :D
Scoundrels and bounty hunters bend the laws of probability in the Star Wars Universe! This is well attested in previous films!
In a universe where parsec is a unit of time, you worry about interstellar travel in minutes? Happens ALL THE TIME, dude!
Star Wars has ALWAYS had guided missiles! Both Proton Torpedoes and Concussion Missiles have been around since the beginning!
Why are you trying to apply engineering principles to a one place (or two place) fighter than can jump hundreds of light years? Dude! :D
Poe Dameron is THE GREATEST PILOT IN THE GALAXY!
The anti-lightsaber baton things are not Abrams' idea, neither is the the cross-hilted lightsaber. Both of these came from the Extended Universe.
Droids could always pilot and fight! See the prequels!
The all purpose tactical plan of "Get 'em!" will suffice, thank you! Welcome to Star Wars!
Shield systems that cover planets? Also not new to Star Wars!
Timing? Poe Dameron is the BEST PILOT IN THE GALAXY! You don't seem to get this vital point! :D
Blaster Proof Armor? This has been around the Star Wars universe. It's just too expensive to give to Stormtroopers! :D
Tracking Ships through Hyperspace? Done by Boba Fett in the first trilogy!
Kamikaze? A: This *is* WWII Carrier Combat in SPAAAACE! They will find some remotely reasonable reason this can't be done ALL THE TIME! So don't worry about it! And that was Ryan Johnson, not JJ.
So it looks like the only thing JJ actually brought into the universe that wasn't already there was the Starkiller base stuff.
Quote from: KingCheops;1023257If you want a fully fleshed out, living universe then yes reading the EU stuff is required. If you want to watch fun movies following a family of space wizards using laser samurai swords to fight evil then no the EU is not required.
If that was what Chris Brady was on about, he was posting in the wrong thread! This one is not about the EU. That is another thread entirely!
Mhmm. Ok, well I'm someone who has seen the first SW over thirty times in the theater, but tried and failed to force myself to re-watch the prequels (even in edit-out-the-crap editions, and the "Japanese with subtitles so we can improve the dialog" edition), balks at the underwater creatures on the way to the Gungans in Ep 1, and the pod races, and little-boy-who-looks-like-he'd-die-at-level-one-of-Space-Invaders Anakin winning deadly races and winning starfighter battles, and people jumping out of air cars and arcade-like-robot-factory scenes, and on and on, and who hasn't yet chosen to play a Star Wars RPG, so I'll just thank you for the bits of added info above and resume lurking.
Quote from: flyingmice;1023251?? WTF? What are you talking about? Who needs a book to explain a movie? What book? What movie?
The current Star Wars films, require to read the various tie ins, simply because they fail to answer one major question. That's ignoring all the other questions the films bring up and never answer.
And the major question? What happened between the end of Return of The Jedi to The Farce, I mean Force Awakens?
Quote from: KingCheops;1023257If you want a fully fleshed out, living universe then yes reading the EU stuff is required. If you want to watch fun movies following a family of space wizards using laser samurai swords to fight evil then no the EU is not required.
That would apply only if the EU was not completely, totally, 100% a steaming, festering, pile of shit.
After 20 or so books, waiting for something at least below mediocre, I gave up.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1023272And the major question? What happened between the end of Return of The Jedi to The Farce, I mean Force Awakens?
What do you need to know? According to the opening crawl in TFA Luke Skywalker has gone into hiding, the First Order has arisen from the ashes of the Empire, and Leia leads a Resistance that is supported by the Republic.
If you need to know the other details its on you to read the other stuff. The events of the Battle of Jakku are 29 years in the past and not really relevant to TFA. You want to know how Leia learned about the First Order? Read Bloodlines.
There is enough of a mention in the movie to satisfy me. "Evil always returns." Yep.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1023276That would apply only if the EU was not completely, totally, 100% a steaming, festering, pile of shit.
After 20 or so books, waiting for something at least below mediocre, I gave up.
What have you read from the new canon? I've read Bloodlines, Catalyst, Tarkin, New Dawn, and Aftermath. They were all pretty good (except Aftermath) and better than most of the Legacy stuff but none of them were Dostoyevsky. I also buy the Poe Dameron TPBs (decent but not great comics) and bought the Captain Phasma TPB (unmitigated shit).
I don't have a lot of friends who have read any of these so I don't really have anyone to bounce opinions off of. I'd love to hear other people's opinion on them.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1023272The current Star Wars films, require to read the various tie ins, simply because they fail to answer one major question. That's ignoring all the other questions the films bring up and never answer.
And the major question? What happened between the end of Return of The Jedi to The Farce, I mean Force Awakens?
Well, that's not what this thread is about. We're talking about the way technology seems to not advance, or advance very slowly, in the Star Wars Universe. If you just want to bitch about the new films, there are, at last count, seventeen baskillion Star Wars fan sites that are all over that. I am trying to work out how to address the static tech thing in my game, and am getting lots of ideas, from "Don't worry about it dude! It's Star Wars!" to "If you just stick to the films it isn't a big problem" to "Technology advancing quickly is just a fluke now. It hasn't been that way before and it won't be like that later!". Seriously, though, "I hate the new films so much I'm going to hijack this thread and piss in your cornflakes!" is not addressing the OP. Thank you.
Quote from: flyingmice;1023287Well, that's not what this thread is about. We're talking about the way technology seems to not advance, or advance very slowly, in the Star Wars Universe. If you just want to bitch about the new films, there are, at last count, seventeen baskillion Star Wars fan sites that are all over that. I am trying to work out how to address the static tech thing in my game, and am getting lots of ideas, from "Don't worry about it dude! It's Star Wars!" to "If you just stick to the films it isn't a big problem" to "Technology advancing quickly is just a fluke now. It hasn't been that way before and it won't be like that later!". Seriously, though, "I hate the new films so much I'm going to hijack this thread and piss in your cornflakes!" is not addressing the OP. Thank you.
Don't forget differing biology as a damper. Someone mentioned that up thread. I think that is probably a big deal. I know in Canada it is a burden for corporations to have to have English and French on their labels. Now consider that that is 2 languages sharing common roots and designed for 1 species. If you need to make goods and services that can cater to the broad range of alien forms and brains in the galaxy then that increases the burden exponentially.
Also at a certain point it does get to -- well what else could you possibly need?
Quote from: KingCheops;1023288Don't forget differing biology as a damper. Someone mentioned that up thread. I think that is probably a big deal. I know in Canada it is a burden for corporations to have to have English and French on their labels. Now consider that that is 2 languages sharing common roots and designed for 1 species. If you need to make goods and services that can cater to the broad range of alien forms and brains in the galaxy then that increases the burden exponentially.
Also at a certain point it does get to -- well what else could you possibly need?
Hi Cheops!
I have been very happy with the response so far! Most people have been sticking to the subject and giving their thoughts. Some are more useful than others - this language/species thing is one I can work with among others - but most people are being on point, and that is all useful and good to know! :D
Quote from: KingCheops;1023286What have you read from the new canon? I've read Bloodlines, Catalyst, Tarkin, New Dawn, and Aftermath. They were all pretty good (except Aftermath) and better than most of the Legacy stuff but none of them were Dostoyevsky. I also buy the Poe Dameron TPBs (decent but not great comics) and bought the Captain Phasma TPB (unmitigated shit).
I don't have a lot of friends who have read any of these so I don't really have anyone to bounce opinions off of. I'd love to hear other people's opinion on them.
I gave up years ago, after reading two pages of the book where Chewie gets a planet dropped on him.
I never read a Star Wars 'EU' book that even made it to mediocre. They would be a guilty pleasure, but there was no pleasure.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1023299I gave up years ago, after reading two pages of the book where Chewie gets a planet dropped on him.
By the same author who gave D&D Drizzt...
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1022952Seriously, I chalk it up to 1. Fairy tale-ism. (Star Wars is partly fairy tale) and 2. Lucas having the romantic notions of a pre-teenager.
Since the movies were aimed at 8-12 year old boys, that would make perfect sense.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1023276That would apply only if the EU was not completely, totally, 100% a steaming, festering, pile of shit.
After 20 or so books, waiting for something at least below mediocre, I gave up.
I liked
Han Solo At Stars End well enough, but yeah the EU has always been about as useful as a cock-flavored lollipop.
There are probably ladies out there who would like a cock-flavored lollipop.
Until the Disney movies wrecked it, I always thought Star Wars (films) presented an extremely well thought out and consistent take on technology. The contrast between that and The Force was always a big part of the appeal - the plausible/immersive, lived-in feel of the Galaxy, set against these tales of magical derring-do. Like Wuxia in historical China, or even superhero films set on an otherwise recognisable modern Earth.
I do think the Star Wars films (pre-Disney, especially the OT) are profoundly conservative, and while this makes for a more immersive/real feel than the Star Trek Techtopia of TNG+, certainly it may lean to excessive conservatism just as TNG+ tech leans to IMO mindless progressivism. But I think it helps if you equate the SW Republic/Empire not to 20th century USA but to the obvious source in the Roman Republic/Empire. Impressive technological achievements, definitely, moreso than most other historical empires (compare eg the Ottomans or Sassanid Persia), but a Roman citizen in 300 BC was in most respects not living with profoundly different technology than a Roman in AD 300.
Quote from: flyingmice;1023224Actually, prequels to The Last Jedi covers about 60 years, but your point is still valid.
Well, I was really talking about the period from the prequels to the original trilogy.
Technological stasis is only a problem if you buy into the idea of eternal progress. I assume Star Wars has gone through several dark ages where technology is simply lost or a galactic government couldn't gather up enough resources to build something like a Death Star. What would the tech level of Tattooine be if trade with the rest of the galaxy was disrupted? Probably close to that of the sand people. Technology has plateaued for long periods of time in our history too, the stone age lasted for thousands of years and is still ongoing in certain places.
Quote from: EOTB;1022584What critical want exists in the SW universe for which a very functional tech hasn't been developed? Tech advance solves a previously unsolved problem or makes things faster/cheaper. I can't really think of anything that qualifies for this except inserted plot devices.
Genuine freshly squeezed Jawa juice, apparently, if Attack of the Clones is to be believed. :p
Quote from: Sailing Scavenger;1023731Technological stasis is only a problem if you buy into the idea of eternal progress. I assume Star Wars has gone through several dark ages where technology is simply lost or a galactic government couldn't gather up enough resources to build something like a Death Star. What would the tech level of Tattooine be if trade with the rest of the galaxy was disrupted? Probably close to that of the sand people. Technology has plateaued for long periods of time in our history too, the stone age lasted for thousands of years and is still ongoing in certain places.
This is a good point, Scavenger! The EU/Legends gives a sense that the last 25,000 years have been more or less the same as now, in a smooth unbroken flow, but that is all now no longer canon, and what we know only goes back 1000 years (the Galactic Republic was founded) and may have several Dark Ages we don't know about.
Quote from: Opaopajr;1023738Genuine freshly squeezed Jawa juice, apparently, if Attack of the Clones is to be believed. :p
Luckily, they have fresh blue milk!
Quote from: Sailing Scavenger;1023731Technological stasis is only a problem if you buy into the idea of eternal progress. I assume Star Wars has gone through several dark ages where technology is simply lost or a galactic government couldn't gather up enough resources to build something like a Death Star. What would the tech level of Tattooine be if trade with the rest of the galaxy was disrupted? Probably close to that of the sand people. Technology has plateaued for long periods of time in our history too, the stone age lasted for thousands of years and is still ongoing in certain places.
Here's the other thing, how long did it take for Rome to fall? 400 years? And it's much smaller than the Star Wars 'Republic', so it could take thousands of years before the tech start to get noticeable.
Yes, I guess there can be periods of technological stasis even in very advanced civilizations. There's probably points where the leap needed to get to another level of technological mastery requires enormous effort or very special breakthroughs.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1024115Yes, I guess there can be periods of technological stasis even in very advanced civilizations. There's probably points where the leap needed to get to another level of technological mastery requires enormous effort or very special breakthroughs.
And, just to clarify what I meant, technological declines would also be harder to notice as well.
(Disclaimer: I didn't read the thread in its entirety, so what I suggest here may have already been suggested. In this case: sorry.)
Maybe technology has been improving continuously during all those millenias. That is: each time they ran out of some type of fuel for their engines, propulsion systems, etc., they had to develop a new type of technology. In Rogue One the Empire is gathering special crystals to move the Death Star, that we are told are very rare. I guess that the engineers will quickly have to design new propulsion systems relying on something different. Apparently hydrogen fusion is not appropriate, because hydrogen is found everywhere in the universe.
Quote from: Turanil;1024127(Disclaimer: I didn't read the thread in its entirety, so what I suggest here may have already been suggested. In this case: sorry.)
Maybe technology has been improving continuously during all those millenias. That is: each time they ran out of some type of fuel for their engines, propulsion systems, etc., they had to develop a new type of technology. In Rogue One the Empire is gathering special crystals to move the Death Star, that we are told are very rare. I guess that the engineers will quickly have to design new propulsion systems relying on something different. Apparently hydrogen fusion is not appropriate, because hydrogen is found everywhere in the universe.
Hi Turanil!
Those crystals were not to move the Death Star, they were kyber crystals, and were used to tune the output for the Death Star's weapon. Kyber crystals were used to build lightsabers, but not regular lasers or blasters.
Quote from: flyingmice;1024153Hi Turanil!
Those crystals were not to move the Death Star, they were kyber crystals, and were used to tune the output for the Death Star's weapon. Kyber crystals were used to build lightsabers, but not regular lasers or blasters.
Which brings us back to the crazy religion of space wizards with laser swords suppressing potentially valuable resources. Galen Erso actually discovered a better energy system by using the khyber crystals and Krennic just weaponized it. How much would the galaxy have prospered if this power source had been available earlier instead of hoarded to make laser swords?
Quote from: KingCheops;1024185Which brings us back to the crazy religion of space wizards with laser swords suppressing potentially valuable resources. Galen Erso actually discovered a better energy system by using the khyber crystals and Krennic just weaponized it. How much would the galaxy have prospered if this power source had been available earlier instead of hoarded to make laser swords?
Seems kind of ridiculous that something can be considered rare at the level of making some swords, and yet there would be enough to make a significant power plant industry and/or planet-destroying weapons?
Sounds to me like yet another case of writers who dip their toes in an idea and refuse to invent a situation where it holds any more water than they want for one or two short-sighted assertions. Such as "this is a galactic-scale set of civilizations with massive numbers of worlds and quadrillions of people" and then also "oh noes, one star system is blown up, and the whole New Goodguy fleet is destroyed as well, because of course it was all parked in one place and only had a few dozen ships anyway, because that's totally what a fleet in a galaxy of massive number of systems would be like" and of course "hey it's Star Wars, laser swords, space wizards, what do you mean it doesn't make any sense!" and "go GM it! surely players won't actually think and exploit and torture you about all the nonsense BS paradoxes...".
If it works for some people, wow, ok, glad you're having fun, but the people I've played with are a lot more critical and clever about detecting and exploiting (and not particularly interested in playing with) settings that don't seem to make much sense.
Very strong copyright laws and enforcement.
At some point every basic idea is owned by someone.
If everything is already owned, experimenting with other peoples IP is dangerous and often a waste of effort.
If you do make an improvement, the original owner profits and not you.
Basically stops all progress.
=
Ya, patent laws and cartel/monopolies interested in power/wealth/control and not really in actually improving technology. (I'd say that's why my car has a malfunctioning $600 Light Control Unit computer that can only be fixed by replacing the whole thing with a replacement from the Original Equipment Manufacturer, instead of a switch and some wires that any mechanic could fix.)
Quote from: Skarg;1024193Seems kind of ridiculous that something can be considered rare at the level of making some swords, and yet there would be enough to make a significant power plant industry and/or planet-destroying weapons?
For "rare", read "found only on a handful of (Less than ten?) planets from the billions of planets in the galaxy". To get enough - and large enough - kyber crystals for the Death Star, they basically ripped these planets apart down to their cores. The Jedi would go to one of these planets and wander around in caves until they felt a crystal "call" to them - basically resonate with them. All mystic hippie stuff. Empire ripped the planets up and discarded anything they didn't want. All corporate greed stuff. I love Star Wars, but subtlety was not Lucas' strong suit... :D
Quote from: Skarg;1024193"hey it's Star Wars, laser swords, space wizards, what do you mean it doesn't make any sense!" and "go GM it! surely players won't actually think and exploit and torture you about all the nonsense BS paradoxes...".
If it works for some people, wow, ok, glad you're having fun, but the people I've played with are a lot more critical and clever about detecting and exploiting (and not particularly interested in playing with) settings that don't seem to make much sense.
Shrug. If I want plausible science fiction I'll do something that isn't Star Wars.
Just like how I don't worry about why plate armor exists in a world with guys who throw 155mm howitzer shells from their fingertips and giant flying dinosaurs that breathe fire.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1024222Shrug. If I want plausible science fiction I'll do something that isn't Star Wars.
Just like how I don't worry about why plate armor exists in a world with guys who throw 155mm howitzer shells from their fingertips and giant flying dinosaurs that breathe fire.
Pretty much all of this. Different things exist for different reasons. Star Wars has always been described as Space Opera. That's what I want from it -- not detailed descriptions of how everything works. I've got The Expanse for that.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1024222Shrug. If I want plausible science fiction I'll do something that isn't Star Wars.
Just like how I don't worry about why plate armor exists in a world with guys who throw 155mm howitzer shells from their fingertips and giant flying dinosaurs that breathe fire.
This. Oh so much of this.
Star Wars is science fantasy.
Um right, and also why with my tastes, I don't RPG Star Wars, or D&D, and am mainly annoyed by everything Star Wars after about the point the Ewoks started taking out armored stormtroopers with rocks and zany antics.
Quote from: Skarg;1024249Um right, and also why with my tastes, I don't RPG Star Wars, or D&D, and am mainly annoyed by everything Star Wars after about the point the Ewoks started taking out armored stormtroopers with rocks and zany antics.
Ewoks are why I support the Endor Holocaust....
Quote from: Skarg;1024249Um right, and also why with my tastes, I don't RPG Star Wars, or D&D, and am mainly annoyed by everything Star Wars after about the point the Ewoks started taking out armored stormtroopers with rocks and zany antics.
8 year old me will never get over Yoda turning out to be a puppet with Grover's voice. Also, C-3PO is how I learned the word "gay". At one time, I had no idea what gay was, but I was sure it had something to do with robots.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1024115Yes, I guess there can be periods of technological stasis even in very advanced civilizations. There's probably points where the leap needed to get to another level of technological mastery requires enormous effort or very special breakthroughs.
Or the forces against change are sufficiently powerful to prevent that change until something else disrupts that society enough to weaken the opposition.
Quote from: Bren;1024308Or the forces against change are sufficiently powerful to prevent that change until something else disrupts that society enough to weaken the opposition.
Technological innovation meets with resistance routinely, but the more technological a society becomes the more difficult it is to actually stop further technological progress from being implemented. Today, even, someone could invent a new Thingus and even if Big Non-Thingus was determined to stop it, said Thingus could be shared all over the internet.
Not very long from now, it will not only be the concepts or science behind it that could be shared with the entire world, but the Thingus itself could likely be made anywhere in the world by a next-gen 3d-printer.