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Author Topic: State of Shadowrun 6e today?  (Read 4102 times)

sureshot

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State of Shadowrun 6e today?
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2020, 11:27:57 pm »
I guess I am the resident weirdo when it comes to Rifts. I found it easier to run and play then Shadowrun YMMV imo. The system is useable if a little clunky. Shadowrun varios subsystems feel like they are tacked on, riveted together and imo a pain i nthe ass to run and play.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2020, 11:30:47 pm by sureshot »

Ninneveh

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State of Shadowrun 6e today?
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2020, 03:26:09 am »
Quote from: VisionStorm;1132717
Yeah...

RIFTS is definitely not better than Shadowrun. The setting is about as good, maybe better depending on your tastes, and I would agree it's definitely one of the better ideas (as a setting) to grace RPGs. But the system is a barely incoherent mess with overblown damage and inconsistent power levels between classes and supplements, etc. that's not all bad, but nowhere near the vicinity of innovative to be good.

If I was gonna use a different system to play a setting cuz I didn't like the system attached to it, I would NOT use the Palladium system. If anything, I would play RIFTS with a different system (probably not SW, cuz it doesn't really tickle my fancy).

In my opinion Rifts blows Shadowrun out the water both settingwise and systemwise. I've had separate GMs who both ran Shadowrun campaigns lasting maybe 5 games at most, but ran Rifts campaigns that lasted for a year or more, thats how much they also preferred it over Shadowrun. Power level difference is a feature, not a flaw. Also, I never suggested that people haphazardly substitute in Palladium's system into Shadowrun's setting. I did say that if people want to to play Mercenary-Magic-Cyberpunk that they could do it in Rifts with a similar setting and a more enjoyable system. If abandoning the Shadowrun Setting is a deal breaker then by all means use another system.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 07:41:11 pm by Ninneveh »

KingCheops

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State of Shadowrun 6e today?
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2020, 04:07:16 pm »
The Chi-Town arcology and burbs predates the creation of the Renraku Arcology in terms of game writing I believe.  Rifts is also far more clear on how it handles magic and psionics in the legal system of the Coalition than Shadowrun.  It is a lot more dystopian when you are non-ambiguously a criminal just for existing.

I'm warming up to Rifts or Phase World as my go-to Cyberpunk.  May have to shelve my Rifts Pacific Northwest setting for a bit.

Orphan81

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State of Shadowrun 6e today?
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2020, 09:18:42 pm »
Shadowrun 3rd edition remains my favorite version of the Game both setting wise and system wise. 4th Edition tried to much to be serious and hardcore like it was Trying to be World of Darkness, dropping all the fun slang and jettisoning all the Pink Mohawk stuff for real swear words and mirror shades as the only way to play. The setting itself ran like a worse version of World of Darkness's sytem.

Shadowrun 4A cleaned the system up a little more, and overall made it better... but it still lost so much of the charm and interesting parts it had from 1-3rd edition (I actually liked the Combat Pool, Magic Pool, and Hacking Pools.. and I was the GM) 5th edition brought back the fun flavor, but the system left much to be desired... Now 6th edition just sounds even terrible..

These days if I want to run Rifts or Shadowrun I'd probably use Savage Worlds...

Taggie

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State of Shadowrun 6e today?
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2020, 05:30:54 pm »
Quote from: sureshot;1132731
I guess I am the resident weirdo when it comes to Rifts. I found it easier to run and play then Shadowrun YMMV imo. The system is useable if a little clunky. Shadowrun varios subsystems feel like they are tacked on, riveted together and imo a pain i nthe ass to run and play.

Rifts is great fun, needs a session 0 to agree relative power levels (from 'gritty dystopian burbs cyberpunk' to 'dragons and T-men and super mecha oh my')  , but so do most campaigns, system does clunk sometimes, but way less than shadowrun does.

Charon's Little Helper

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State of Shadowrun 6e today?
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2020, 09:34:54 pm »
Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1132448
So if I want to selfishly side track the thread for a moment, for Shadowrun pros, the best edition is 4e?

5e was frustrating but I love the game. Hard pass on 6e for me. Would love to play an actual decent edition, if it exists.


I'm no expert, but IMO all of them are frustrating in different ways. My big issue with Shadowrun was always the initiative system making speed OP, and diving into either the decking or astral plane makes the rest of the players twiddle their thumbs for 20-30 minutes.

Frankly - Shadowrun was always a game which was popular IN SPITE OF the mechanics because of the setting being a load of fun. The one good thing I'll say about the mechanics is that they're dripping with flavor and really fit the vibe that they're going for. Unfortunately, they're also clunky, hard to use, and badly balanced. *shrug*

Shrieking Banshee

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State of Shadowrun 6e today?
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2020, 12:55:31 am »
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1133351
Frankly - Shadowrun was always a game which was popular IN SPITE OF the mechanics because of the setting being a load of fun. The one good thing I'll say about the mechanics is that they're dripping with flavor and really fit the vibe that they're going for. Unfortunately, they're also clunky, hard to use, and badly balanced. *shrug*

Yup. I feel they do have some unique charm, but they're counterbalanced by badness.

TheSHEEEP

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State of Shadowrun 6e today?
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2020, 02:09:18 am »
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1133351
My big issue with Shadowrun was always the initiative system making speed OP, and diving into either the decking or astral plane makes the rest of the players twiddle their thumbs for 20-30 minutes.
You are definitely correct about the speed problem, but the rest isn't really an issue.
In SR, you play a team of runners, a group of highly specialized individuals - if you run properly, you'll only rarely be in the same place or situation. It just doesn't make sense to have the infiltration expert, tank, face, mage, etc. all in one spot. Not during a run, anyway.
This ain't D&D where everyone is always moving in one big blob through a linear corridor. Everyone generally fulfills their role independent of the others and therefore you always have the focus on one player, then the next, etc.
That's just in the nature of the setting. So deckers/mages doing their thing while the others are doing nothing is no different from any other role doing their thing while others are doing nothing.

This is also often just a DM problem. Our group always gave "inactive" players something to do, like playing an NPC, etc.
Also adds a lot of fun to the table, as it gives every player the opportunity to throw a few wrenches in their own plan (which players actually like doing, go figure).

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1133351
Frankly - Shadowrun was always a game which was popular IN SPITE OF the mechanics because of the setting being a load of fun. The one good thing I'll say about the mechanics is that they're dripping with flavor and really fit the vibe that they're going for. Unfortunately, they're also clunky, hard to use, and badly balanced. *shrug*
Frankly, if anyone thinks SR rules are hard to use, I question their competence at the table. I mean, yeah, the decking/hacking stuff is rather complicated, but that's also something you can simply play without (did that for almost 10 years, works perfectly).
But the rest is anywhere but clunky and hard to use.
It has the right amount of crunch and detail to actually be considered a game that isn't just "my first RPG experience" ala D&D5E, while not going overboard with details like The Dark Eye does (trying to summon a spirit as a shaman of the southern lands scarred me for life, had to cross-reference 4!!!! books to get the full rules, the process took 1 hour).
Besides, throwing a huge bunch of small dice is just very satisfying.

Badly balanced is true, and that does require some houseruling, though I don't think any SR edition (except 6th) requires tons of that.
The DM saying "If you use it, I will" generally solves all vastly overpowered problems (e.g. mass-summoning spirits, triple initiative phases, etc.).
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 02:21:54 am by TheSHEEEP »

Charon's Little Helper

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State of Shadowrun 6e today?
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2020, 08:46:58 am »
Quote from: TheSHEEEP;1133376
The DM saying "If you use it, I will" generally solves all vastly overpowered problems (e.g. mass-summoning spirits, triple initiative phases, etc.).

If the GM has to do that regularly, you know that a game's balance is TERRIBLE. And it's not like they're oddball combinations, they're just being competent at optimizing the things which the game expects you to go for.

And we're going to have to agree to disagree about the spotlight thing. I'm of the opinion that if a system has actions they expect to be done by only a fraction of the table that those actions should be streamlined, not take up to an hour or so like decking or astral stuff can. Maybe a good GM can make it work, but that is again, that would be IN SPITE OF the mechanics rather than because of it.

I will 100% agree, Shadowrun's world and its mechanics are absolutely dripping with flavor. But IMO the mechanics themselves are sub-par in any edition. I would rather use another system's mechanics to play a Shadowrun campaign.

lordmalachdrim

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« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2020, 01:20:05 pm »
Shadowrun worked best for me back in college where we had more then 1 GM and multiple players. (1 main player per GM)
The main player accepts the job and does the base negotiations and then tries to recruit other players for the team. (does a very nice job of emulating the setting)
In this situation you can also handle somethings that take place away from the main group before the session. (hacking and astral surveillance for example)

Ghostmaker

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State of Shadowrun 6e today?
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2020, 03:48:27 pm »
It's really frustrating for me to hear all these tales of woe, because I've loved SR for a while. The sourcebooks, written as if they were forum/BBS postings (and including peanut gallery commentary) really sold me on the game.

Catalyst just keeps making these bad decisions though, and it worries the hell out of me.

TheSHEEEP

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State of Shadowrun 6e today?
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2020, 04:43:14 am »
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1133396
If the GM has to do that regularly, you know that a game's balance is TERRIBLE. And it's not like they're oddball combinations, they're just being competent at optimizing the things which the game expects you to go for.
It really isn't that bad. You only have to keep speed/initiative in check as well as summoning. Everything else is fine, really.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1133396
And we're going to have to agree to disagree about the spotlight thing. I'm of the opinion that if a system has actions they expect to be done by only a fraction of the table that those actions should be streamlined, not take up to an hour or so like decking or astral stuff can. Maybe a good GM can make it work, but that is again, that would be IN SPITE OF the mechanics rather than because of it.
Sorry, but this is not an opinion thing. And it doesn't have anything to do with systems or mechanics, either.
Just read what I wrote again. This is pure setting.
In Shadowrun, you do not play a group that moves together as a blob. You just don't. It would make 0 sense in most occasions. A tank has no place running around infiltrating a building together with a face, a mage detective has no use for a Ninja while inspecting a crime scene, etc.
What you do in SR is much more similar to what you see in series like Leverage (highly recommended, btw.), in that the group gets together for the planning and parts of the group get together for different parts of the execution of the plan as well. You are essentially doing heists, not dungeoneering.
You can not (and should not) streamline the entire point of a role away.

Everything else would just be trying to force a D&D structure (a group exploring an unknown dungeon together, no matter if they even have a reason to be together in the first place) upon a setting that doesn't lend itself to that, not when doing "normal" runs, anyway.
If you have players that are so ADHD-riddled that they will die of boredom if they cannot roll a die themselves for 20 minutes, then they should not be playing in this setting (no matter the ruleset used).
Besides, what does that say about a player if they cannot enjoy just watching another character's spotlight for a bit?

And one hour for hacking something or doing some astral stuff? Come on. SR rules definitely aren't that complicated, so if that happens it is 100% on the DM. Don't blame the system for that.
Even if there was a very long situation for one player, you can always do what is generally done in all forms of media. "Meanwhile at a different location..." - and then switch back. Our rule was that the absolute maximum for a solo scene is 25 minutes, anthing not done then will get the "Meanwhile..." treatment and then the spotlight will come back later.
And, again, this is not a system problem, you'd get the same if you did the same situation with any ruleset.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 05:46:09 am by TheSHEEEP »

KingCheops

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State of Shadowrun 6e today?
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2020, 12:26:14 pm »
One hour for hacking is not at all outside the realm of reason for pre-4e.  Even 4e after the hacker splat it got back to that.  Emergent gameplay also showed prior to that the best thing for corps to do was stay with the matrix dungeon approach of earlier editions.  If you want to play Pink Mohawk then yeah you handwave a lot of that away but if you have any sort of Mirror Shades going on you absolutely can't.

Also once mages started getting their initiation and going on astral quests for prep work that could also take a fairly long time unless you reduced it to a purely dice rolling mechanism like hacking with no role playing.

Orphan81

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State of Shadowrun 6e today?
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2020, 04:40:27 pm »
Quote from: KingCheops;1133865
One hour for hacking is not at all outside the realm of reason for pre-4e.  Even 4e after the hacker splat it got back to that.  Emergent gameplay also showed prior to that the best thing for corps to do was stay with the matrix dungeon approach of earlier editions.  If you want to play Pink Mohawk then yeah you handwave a lot of that away but if you have any sort of Mirror Shades going on you absolutely can't.

Also once mages started getting their initiation and going on astral quests for prep work that could also take a fairly long time unless you reduced it to a purely dice rolling mechanism like hacking with no role playing.

I'd gotten very good at system mastery with Shadowrun 3e... Very good, my players had too. So I was capable of running the Matrix legwork and the Mage Initiation ultra level Spirit summoning at the same time. My players in that period loved playing Mages, Deckers, and Riggers... the Streetsam in the group was an NPC... the preparation for the Run was one of the most fun parts.

4+ editions got rid of all those fun little fiddly bits, then brought them back but in a worse version.

Yeah 3e and below took more System mastery, but I think it led to a more interesting game mechanically, and one that actually ran better than 4+ editions when you knew what you were doing.

Spinachcat

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« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2020, 05:31:06 am »
I've loved running and playing both RIFTS and Shadowrun. I thought SR 3e was quite good, but if I ran SR again, I'd run 1e. Why? It oozes with raw creativity. Also, after 6 editions, I know I could fill a table just for the nostalgia / curiosity factor.

As for RIFTS' system, it's a mess to read that runs great at the table...especially after you take a hammer to anything that doesn't work for you, or you just throw up your hands and accept the system weirdness. I've mentioned this before, but hot damn, some of my most memorable RPG moments have been with Palladium's games even though I could ramble for days about the problems in their system and settings. Somehow - and I don't know how - the issues with Palladium melt away at most games I've played over the decades.

And you could totally run Shadowrun with RIFTS. Hell, Rifts Japan just screams for such a campaign.