Hi!

So, I've never played SWN, but after reading about it, I'm quite excited to give it a go and have decided to buy the hardcover revised edition book for myself. I've noticed that most, if not all, currently existing SWN supplements are for the first edition. I'm mainly interested in these five:

• Dead Names: Lost Races and Forgotten Ruins
• Relics of the Lost
• Sixteen Stars: Creating Places of Perilous Adventure
• Skyward Steel: Naval Campaigns for Stars Without Number
• Suns of Gold: Merchant Campaigns for Stars Without Number

Are they worth getting, and if so, how easy is it to use them with the revised edition? Are there any other supplements you'd recommend?

Also, while I'm here, I guess I wouldn't mind getting some GM tips, if anyone feels like giving them. I've run a Pathfinder campaign for a few months, but have never even tried an OSR game before, so I'm guessing it will be quite different...

Thanks in advance.

Welcome to theRPGsite, Morblot!

I'll second that. Welcome to the site, and try not to let the crazies scare you. They don't bite (mostly).

SWN 1e is very compatible with Revised Edition. There might have been some tweaks to ship fittings that could cause issue with the stuff in Skyward Steel, but don't quote me on that. The only real issue that I can remember is that the skill list changed between 1e and RE. So, for example, if you're using the trading rules in Suns of Gold, at times it will tell you or the players to make a given skill check and you'll have to use a different RE skill instead. It's not too hard, though, as it's usually pretty obvious which skill should be used.

I'd say you've hit on some of the best supplements. My own personal favorites are Suns of Gold (mercantile campaigns), Starvation Cheap (mercenary campaigns), Skyward Steel (military campaigns), and Sixteen Stars for all the great quick scenario generation. I could run SWN for decades just with those supplements and the core book.

As far as GM advice goes, I really don't know that I can say much that isn't in the core book. Pay attention to the advice written there and start with that. Start small, make sure your group has several clear options for potential plot hooks, and ask them which way they're looking to go at the end of each session so you'll have some idea of what to expect. There's great GM resources available, so make use of them as much as you need until you feel like branching out with your own material.

I've used everything, revised or not together without giving the matter any thought.  The miniseries only was about 20 hours of play, so it's possible that I just didn't hit an issue, but I doubt there will be a real problem.

My advice for an OSR style game:

1) Referee describes a situation
2) Players describe what they do in response
3) Referee determines the results (using the system and judgement calls as needed)
4) Referee describes the new situation

This goes around in a circuit repeating over and over again.  As long as you concentrate on what is described and use the system as a tool to resolve that, you won't go wrong.  In Pathfinder people can make decisions based on the system, resolve it with the system and represent it in system terms with the description largely being unnecessary.  Do the opposite for OSR games.  Decisions should be made on the description and the point of resolving them is to produce more description rather than a system change.

Just to confirm, 1e supplements work fine with Revised. I wrote Revised specifically to be backward compatible with all my existing material. There are a few mismatches- the Skyward Steel ship combat system isn't applicable any more, the skill names have changed, and you'd need to flip armor classes from descending to ascending- but it's nothing that usually comes up during play. The math and the number ranges are all pretty much the same in both versions.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1064831Welcome to theRPGsite, Morblot!

Quote from: Brand55;1064861I'll second that. Welcome to the site, and try not to let the crazies scare you. They don't bite (mostly).

Thank you! And don't worry, I found my way here from the RPG Codex, so I think I can handle it. :cool:

Quote from: Brand55;1064861I'd say you've hit on some of the best supplements. My own personal favorites are Suns of Gold (mercantile campaigns), Starvation Cheap (mercenary campaigns), Skyward Steel (military campaigns), and Sixteen Stars for all the great quick scenario generation. I could run SWN for decades just with those supplements and the core book.

Nice, thanks. I added Starvation Cheap to my wishlist, but probably won't be buying it until later. I don't exactly know what kind of campaign I want to run yet, but I do know I want the PCs to take to the stars!!!, not get stuck in the trenches on some backwater outpost... at least not yet.

Quote from: Brand55;1064861As far as GM advice goes, I really don't know that I can say much that isn't in the core book. Pay attention to the advice written there and start with that. Start small, make sure your group has several clear options for potential plot hooks, and ask them which way they're looking to go at the end of each session so you'll have some idea of what to expect. There's great GM resources available, so make use of them as much as you need until you feel like branching out with your own material.

Quote from: Chivalric;1064900My advice for an OSR style game:
(snip)
This goes around in a circuit repeating over and over again.  As long as you concentrate on what is described and use the system as a tool to resolve that, you won't go wrong.  In Pathfinder people can make decisions based on the system, resolve it with the system and represent it in system terms with the description largely being unnecessary.  Do the opposite for OSR games.  Decisions should be made on the description and the point of resolving them is to produce more description rather than a system change.

Thanks for the advice. How much time does it usually take to prepare for the next session? I know there's probably no objective truth about this, but how do you guys feel about it? My experience with Pathfinder is that it can be quite taxing for the GM to try to find monsters in the correct CR range, coming up with level-appropriate treasure, creating NPCs, etc... My hope is that I don't have to worry about the numbers so much when I'm preparing a session for SWN.

Quote from: Brand55;1064861SWN 1e is very compatible with Revised Edition. There might have been some tweaks to ship fittings that could cause issue with the stuff in Skyward Steel, but don't quote me on that. The only real issue that I can remember is that the skill list changed between 1e and RE. So, for example, if you're using the trading rules in Suns of Gold, at times it will tell you or the players to make a given skill check and you'll have to use a different RE skill instead. It's not too hard, though, as it's usually pretty obvious which skill should be used.

Quote from: Chivalric;1064900I've used everything, revised or not together without giving the matter any thought.  The miniseries only was about 20 hours of play, so it's possible that I just didn't hit an issue, but I doubt there will be a real problem.

Quote from: SineNomine;1064911Just to confirm, 1e supplements work fine with Revised. I wrote Revised specifically to be backward compatible with all my existing material. There are a few mismatches- the Skyward Steel ship combat system isn't applicable any more, the skill names have changed, and you'd need to flip armor classes from descending to ascending- but it's nothing that usually comes up during play. The math and the number ranges are all pretty much the same in both versions.

Thanks for easing my mind. Glad to know I don't have to be wary of getting whatever interests me.

I just went through the planet/system/sector generation system in the core book and familiarized myself with some stats I could use.  I tend to improv a lot.

Have any of the print-on-demand supplements been updated to be fully in-line with the revised edition?

Quote from: RabidWookie on February 02, 2023, 02:44:45 AM
Have any of the print-on-demand supplements been updated to be fully in-line with the revised edition?

If they have, I've missed it. And I don't think that's likely as I would get emails from DriveThruRPG if Sine Nomine updated the supplements I own.

It's hard to blame the man. It's probably more lucrative to shell out new $80 games for the masses (relatively speaking ofc) than update supplements that, by design, have far more limited audience potential.

Quote from: Morblot on February 18, 2023, 10:30:28 AM

Quote from: RabidWookie on February 02, 2023, 02:44:45 AM
Have any of the print-on-demand supplements been updated to be fully in-line with the revised edition?

If they have, I've missed it. And I don't think that's likely as I would get emails from DriveThruRPG if Sine Nomine updated the supplements I own.

It's hard to blame the man. It's probably more lucrative to shell out new $80 games for the masses (relatively speaking ofc) than update supplements that, by design, have far more limited audience potential.

I don't think it's an either/or situation, it seems like it'd take very little time to update them.

Quote from: RabidWookie on February 02, 2023, 02:44:45 AM
Have any of the print-on-demand supplements been updated to be fully in-line with the revised edition?

It doesn't look like it.  I bought Suns of Gold recently, and it still has descending AC.

Honestly though, nothing in it looks like it would need any real effort to convert.  I honestly suspect that's why it hasn't been done.  If Sine Nomine were to go through and fix it, he would then need to offer two versions- one would be the old edition, and one would be the revised edition.  He'd probably feel the need to make the PDF available to anyone who bought the older one, which seems like it would be a pain.  After all, it's not like the old edition is a typo or a mistake, any more than your AD&D PHB should "really" be a 4th edition PHB.  Meanwhile, the changes required to update it are too minor to justify an entire new release, with new content.

Can anyone recommend the best options for buying print copies of the Stars Without Number supplements?

Also, is the Codex of the Black Sun worth buying for someone that has the offset print Revised edition core book? It looks like the Revised edition has magic rules included.

I can't help with what is the best option for print.

The black sun codex offers a ton of character options.  It also changes a few things so you'll need to figure out what you want.  The default setting offers an Arcanist that is meant to have OSR spells plugged right into it- a wizard, basically.  It's not got a lot of defined anything, but it's obviously very powerful to drag in, say, AD&D 2e's wizard spell list.  Similarly, the Magister sits as a drop in sorcerer.  There's only one sample Adept type, and of course he can use the neat Savage Sorcery arcane focus.

Open up Codex of the Black Sun, however, and you get:
1- An optional reasoning for how these casters work (as presented the Arcanist and the various Magisters are psychics with a very special and ancient way of using their psychic powers, and Adepts are something else).
2- Some serious nerfs to the previously undefined Arcanist.  Now a much more serious class with a lot of effort, they have a reasonably sparse spell list (in contrast to what they were intended to have in the revised handbook), but still very reasonable and able to add spells as a D&D wizard.  Said spells fit into a technological world pretty well, and lose a lot of the implied arcane flavor of just dumping another OSR game's spell list in- but this is a much more serious and balanced class, and the spells actually fit into the world. 
3- Magister is no longer "basically a sorcerer", but is instead a superclass- you choose one of the magister subtypes, each well defined and honestly cool as shit.  It's also a great template to make your own. 
4- Adept is greatly expanded, and wastes no time introducing the Sunblades, basically a SWN version of what the early Jedi order were, right around the time lightsabers were invented- but expanded to be able to have a variety of cool weapons, along with a few ideas.  While the Sunblade is combat oriented, and so is the Godhunter, the other Adepts are less so.  There's also a heretofore undefined class, the Free Nexus.  It's unknown if the original glowpriests or whatever (the Adept type in the core book) can still use Savage Sorcery, as it is reprinted here but now the section of arcane foci explicitly excludes Adepts.
5- A whole new Focus list.  Two of them really, one for the Arcanists and Magisters, and another for the Adepts and the partially magic warriors and experts that the book also adds.

Basically, if you want spell lists and all the subclasses, you'll definitely want the Codex of the Black Sun.  I'll also go ahead and say that the Arcanist and Magister in the core book are probably incomplete, and the versions in the expansion book definitely are not.  If you are motivated to allow a PC to play a spellcaster, I think you'd 100% want it.

Quote from: Venka on February 19, 2023, 01:43:08 AM
I can't help with what is the best option for print.

The black sun codex offers a ton of character options.  It also changes a few things so you'll need to figure out what you want.  The default setting offers an Arcanist that is meant to have OSR spells plugged right into it- a wizard, basically.  It's not got a lot of defined anything, but it's obviously very powerful to drag in, say, AD&D 2e's wizard spell list.  Similarly, the Magister sits as a drop in sorcerer.  There's only one sample Adept type, and of course he can use the neat Savage Sorcery arcane focus.

Open up Codex of the Black Sun, however, and you get:
1- An optional reasoning for how these casters work (as presented the Arcanist and the various Magisters are psychics with a very special and ancient way of using their psychic powers, and Adepts are something else).
2- Some serious nerfs to the previously undefined Arcanist.  Now a much more serious class with a lot of effort, they have a reasonably sparse spell list (in contrast to what they were intended to have in the revised handbook), but still very reasonable and able to add spells as a D&D wizard.  Said spells fit into a technological world pretty well, and lose a lot of the implied arcane flavor of just dumping another OSR game's spell list in- but this is a much more serious and balanced class, and the spells actually fit into the world. 
3- Magister is no longer "basically a sorcerer", but is instead a superclass- you choose one of the magister subtypes, each well defined and honestly cool as shit.  It's also a great template to make your own. 
4- Adept is greatly expanded, and wastes no time introducing the Sunblades, basically a SWN version of what the early Jedi order were, right around the time lightsabers were invented- but expanded to be able to have a variety of cool weapons, along with a few ideas.  While the Sunblade is combat oriented, and so is the Godhunter, the other Adepts are less so.  There's also a heretofore undefined class, the Free Nexus.  It's unknown if the original glowpriests or whatever (the Adept type in the core book) can still use Savage Sorcery, as it is reprinted here but now the section of arcane foci explicitly excludes Adepts.
5- A whole new Focus list.  Two of them really, one for the Arcanists and Magisters, and another for the Adepts and the partially magic warriors and experts that the book also adds.

Basically, if you want spell lists and all the subclasses, you'll definitely want the Codex of the Black Sun.  I'll also go ahead and say that the Arcanist and Magister in the core book are probably incomplete, and the versions in the expansion book definitely are not.  If you are motivated to allow a PC to play a spellcaster, I think you'd 100% want it.

Thank you for the detailed responses. Are there any Stars Without Number supplements that you think aren't worth buying for use with the Revised Edition?

I haven't dug into any of the others as deeply as codex, so I can't recommend for or against them.
I will say that the others I've looked through are much more about building the world, and huge sections of them are system neutral. If you already have a section of a universe that you know a lot about, or you have your favorite way to build sandboxes, I don't think they'll be as important. Codex has a bunch of player-facing rules and a bunch of stuff that is very important to whatever world you are building (assuming you want arcane stuff).