Quote from: Brad;761298We played 1st edition for years, even recently, and never found it to be broken. You declare your dodge whenever you want to dodge. I think you're legitimately confused by how combat works in the game.

The 1st edition rules require you to declare all actions at the start of the round, and then roll simultaneously for their effects. Initiative is supposed to be determined by the highest die roll. But this doesn't work.

For instance, if during combat my Blaster roll is 17 and yours is 12, the rules say I shot first. (This is even an explicit example). But, as you note, Dodge is declared when you want to Dodge. Dodging reduces your die codes by 1D - except you've already rolled your dice for the round. To apply the -1D penalty, you'd need to re-roll the rolls you already made. That could lead to transforming a miss to hit, or cause you to suddenly be ahead in the initiative order. Alternatively you could interpret the rules as somehow carrying the Dodge penalty to the next round, but you might kill your opponent this round, meaning the Dodge then had no penalty at all.

And that doesn't even begin to discuss the Dodge math -- characters with high Dodge were essentially unhittable because it stacked with the base difficulty. The designers themselves indicated this was broken, and was based on a wrongful interpretation of stormtrooper accuracy in Episode IV, when the rebels were allowed to escape (see Greg Gorden's designers notes).

Sure, there were ways a good GM could work around this, but they were workarounds of the rules as written. I had tons of fun with 1st edition but it was, and is, borked mechanically.

It is for this reason that West End released the Star Wars Rule Companion a year later with an entirely revamped initiative system, Dodge system, etc. The initiative and Dodge system that was used in 1st edition Star Wars never reappeared in any subsequent Star Wars release or D6 release.

Whether you agree that the system was broken, evidently the designers certainly thought it needed to be improved.

EDIT: In between Star Wars 1st edition and Star Wars 1st edition plus Rules Companion they introduced Star Wars 1st edition Rules Upgrade, which added Haste Actions and Reaction Dodges as replacing rather than adding to the TN - a midway between the original (borked) rules and the Rules Companion (slow but functioning) rules. See
http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/13224/how-does-attacking-and-defense-work-in-star-wars-d6 for a nice breakdown of all the different rules versions.

Quote from: amacris;761365For instance, if during combat my Blaster roll is 17 and yours is 12, the rules say I shot first. (This is even an explicit example). But, as you note, Dodge is declared when you want to Dodge. Dodging reduces your die codes by 1D - except you've already rolled your dice for the round. To apply the -1D penalty, you'd need to re-roll the rolls you already made.

Why the fuck would you do that? You already rolled, and you've taken one action. If you dodge, that would be your second action, which would be reduced by one die.

So, to reiterate, I don't think you understand the system very well. I could care less how they changed the system later, I always found the 1st edition to be the best written and succinct rules-set.

Quote from: Brad;761376Why the fuck would you do that? You already rolled, and you've taken one action. If you dodge, that would be your second action, which would be reduced by one die.

So, to reiterate, I don't think you understand the system very well. I could care less how they changed the system later, I always found the 1st edition to be the best written and succinct rules-set.

He's saying all your rolls should be penalized, including the first one. That's also how I've always read the rules. All actions are penalized, not just the current one.

Quote from: Brad;761376Why the fuck would you do that? You already rolled, and you've taken one action. If you dodge, that would be your second action, which would be reduced by one die.

So, to reiterate, I don't think you understand the system very well.

Actually the rules, as written, were that you have to declare all your actions at once and that all die codes were reduced by the total of (1-actions). This was called the Multiple Action Penalty.

If your declared actions were "I shoot twice and pilot the landspeeder" then you were taking 3 actions, imposing a -2d penalty to the first shot, AND the second shot, AND the piloting roll. It was not the case that you fire the first shot at no penalty, the second shot at -1d, and the pilot roll at -2d.

Had that been the rule, the initiative system would have worked, but it wasn't.

To doublecheck my memory, I just re-read the Star Wars 1st Edition Rules Companion (which I have here at work) and confirmed the Multiple Action Penalty works as I described, not as you described. Since they didn't change the Multiple Action Penalty in the Rules Companion, they just added Haste Actions, I believe that I'm correct on the 1st edition rules.

That said, I don't have a copy of the 1st edition rules handy; if you do, please feel free to look up the Multiple Action penalty and paste it here and we can discuss.

I think the method your group handled it was a common workaround for the broken mechanics (we tried it that way too) but it was not how the rules worked as intended. If it was, then the Rules Companion, 2nd Edition, and all subsequent rules made a HUGE change to the game that went uncommented in the design notes, modules, etc.

Quote from: Endless Flight;761388He's saying all your rolls should be penalized, including the first one. That's also how I've always read the rules. All actions are penalized, not just the current one.

Erm, I'm fairly certain Brad is correct on this point. From my reading of SW1e, all subsequent actions, after the reaction, suffer from the die penalty. There are no do-overs/rerolls of the first action when a Dodge is announced as a reaction. The subsequent actions are just further penalized because the action increases the total amount of actions taken.

I'm at work, but I could dig out my copy later tonight and quote the specific page and section.

Quote from: K Peterson;761397Erm, I'm fairly certain Brad is correct on this point. From my reading of SW1e, all subsequent actions, after the reaction, suffer from the die penalty. There are no do-overs/rerolls of the first action when a Dodge is announced as a reaction. The subsequent actions are just further penalized because the action increases the total amount of actions taken.

I'm at work, but I could dig out my copy later tonight and quote the specific page and section.

Cool. Let us know what you find. I am going to look as well when I get home, though I think I sold my 1st edition on ebay a while back.

I have my copy right on my bookcase so it's easy to pull out and look it up.

Page 12:

"Using More Than One Skill
Actually, you can use more than one skill or attribute in a single combat round. You have to decide which skills you will use during the combat round at the beginning of the round, and tell the gamemaster what you'll do.
Every skill use after the first one costs you 1D. If you use two skills, all skill codes are reduced by 1D; if you use skills three times, all codes are reduced by 2D; if you use skills four times, all codes are reduced by 3D; and so on.
These reductions apply to all skill uses in that combat round. That is, if you use skills twice, both uses are reduced by 1D, etc."

That should clear it up. They later changed it so that you could do a dodge reaction without penalizing your previous actions in R&E, but I never liked it that way.

Also on Page 12:

QuoteReaction Skills

Dodge, melee parry and brawling parry are reaction skills. That means you don't have to declare their use at the beginning of the combat round - you can use them whenever you need to. If someone shoots at you, you can dodge then and there.

But that creates a problem. Suppose you're using other skills in the same round?

In that case, your dodge (or other reaction skill) counts as an extra skill use. Any skill rolls you made before you dodge are not affected - but any rolls you make after the dodge are.

Quote from: Endless Flight;761405I have my copy right on my bookcase so it's easy to pull out and look it up.

Page 12:

"Using More Than One Skill
Actually, you can use more than one skill or attribute in a single combat round. You have to decide which skills you will use during the combat round at the beginning of the round, and tell the gamemaster what you'll do.
Every skill use after the first one costs you 1D. If you use two skills, all skill codes are reduced by 1D; if you use skills three times, all codes are reduced by 2D; if you use skills four times, all codes are reduced by 3D; and so on.
These reductions apply to all skill uses in that combat round. That is, if you use skills twice, both uses are reduced by 1D, etc."

That should clear it up. They later changed it so that you could do a dodge reaction without penalizing your previous actions in R&E, but I never liked it that way.

Thanks for looking it up. I checked my bookshelf and I have the 2nd edition, 2nd edition revised, 1st edition Rules Companion, 1st edition Sourcebook...but not the original 1st edition by Greg Costikyan anymore!

Would you mind posting the action-declaration and initiative rules? There should be a reference to the effect that whoever rolls higher goes first...

And the following example:

QuoteExample: Roark wants to fire three times. Roark brought his blaster down and squeezed off a shot... Three skill uses mean Roark's skill codes are reduced by 2D. Roark's player rolls 3D+1 (blaster code 5D+1 minus 2D). The shot went wide. Before he could shoot again, the Imperial fired back. Roark dodged desperately. The use of dodge means Roark is now using skills four times - three blaster shots and one dodge. His first blaster roll is already made, so isn't affected. However, his dodge skill roll and his last two blaster rolls will be reduced by 3D instead of 2D.

Quote from: K Peterson;761413And the following example:

Thanks for the examples. Since you have the rules handy, how was initiative determined? I.e. how was it determined that Roark shot before the stormtrooper, and what would have happened to the stormtrooper's first shot had the stormtrooper dodged?

That is the specific issue I remember as being broken:

Roark and Stormtrooper both fire. Both roll their full die codes. Roark rolls higher so he goes first.
Stormtrooper dodges.
If Stormtrooper fails to dodge and is killed, then his attack never happened.
if Stormtrooper dodges, then his attack happens at a die code as if his dodge had never happened - which makes no sense.
Either his attack occurred before the dodge, in which case it should happen whether or not the stormtrooper died; or his attack occurred after the dodge and should be penalized.

Yeah, well that was changed in 2e. In 2e (pg. 29), you had to declare a dodge in the declaration phase, even if you didn't know for sure if somebody was going to shoot at you.

Quote from: amacris;761414Thanks for the examples. Since you have the rules handy, how was initiative determined? I.e. how was it determined that Roark shot before the stormtrooper, and what would have happened to the stormtrooper's first shot had the stormtrooper dodged?

Initiative is handled in the manner you've already described. Whoever rolled highest on their first action goes first.

QuoteThat is the specific issue I remember as being broken:

Roark and Stormtrooper both fire. Both roll their full die codes. Roark rolls higher so he goes first.
Stormtrooper dodges.
If Stormtrooper fails to dodge and is killed, then his attack never happened.
if Stormtrooper dodges, then his attack happens at a die code as if his dodge had never happened - which makes no sense.
Either his attack occurred before the dodge, in which case it should happen whether or not the stormtrooper died; or his attack occurred after the dodge and should be penalized.

Do Stormtroopers ever dodge? They've got armor to deal with the Rebel scum.

If the Stormtrooper successfully dodges (at 2D, considering his armor penalty and the action penalty), his attack occurs at the same die result that he originally rolled, in terms of initiative 'rank'. The dodge is kind of an interrupt to the flow of initiative. I don't know if you would consider it to be a simultaneous occurrence to the exchange of blaster fire.

Frankly, I don't really care - it's an abstraction, and over-thinking it seems like a waste of time. It may not make total logical sense, but I don't think that qualifies it as being "broken".

Quote from: K Peterson;761422Frankly, I don't really care - it's an abstraction, and over-thinking it seems like a waste of time. It may not make total logical sense, but I don't think that qualifies it as being "broken".

Thanks again for looking it up. "Broken" is rather a rather subjective assessment....So all I can say is that I personally found the combination of the "not totally logical" initiative and "overpowered" Dodge to be broken and switched to the revised systems as soon as they were published. (And their publication suggested that West End felt the same, of course, because they revised the rules almost immediately with the free Rules Upgrade, then again with the Rules Companion.)

I won't argue with you, there. West End did make a relatively quick decision to revise the system to correct issues they felt it had.

I just feel that many of the criticisms and declarations of 1e's "broken-ness" are overblown. Or not well substantiated. As made evident in this thread, I think.