Quote from: Koltar on May 09, 2022, 05:28:03 PM
Oy Vey!!
There s no "Transporter question" or 'controversy - just people ho like to argue too much.

The setting r rules f the universe say that Transporters 'work!' and SHOW them working quite often.

There....Done with it.

Everything else is geeks or nerds with too much time on their hands (Really FUN song by STYX by-the-way)

Its your campaign - just say that transporters work as advertised.
-Ed C.

Oh teh humanities!

Nerds arguing over nerdy things on a nerdy forum! What new type of degeneracy is this? Don't those nerds have any decency or something better to do instead of playing those childish games?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 09, 2022, 10:19:35 PM

Quote from: Koltar on May 09, 2022, 05:28:03 PM
Oy Vey!!
There s no "Transporter question" or 'controversy - just people ho like to argue too much.

The setting r rules f the universe say that Transporters 'work!' and SHOW them working quite often.

There....Done with it.

Everything else is geeks or nerds with too much time on their hands (Really FUN song by STYX by-the-way)

Its your campaign - just say that transporters work as advertised.
-Ed C.

Oh teh humanities!

Nerds arguing over nerdy things on a nerdy forum! What new type of degeneracy is this? Don't those nerds have any decency or something better to do instead of playing those childish games?

No kidding. Imagine if the geek stuff was almost the only thing two posters here could agree to discuss civilly. Be a shame not to do so, right?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 09, 2022, 10:13:47 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 09, 2022, 04:21:58 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 08, 2022, 02:26:11 AM

Quote from: Omega on May 07, 2022, 07:06:44 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 05, 2022, 05:20:31 PM
In Ringworld humanity has transporters, they are closed cabins and have a distance/speed limitation.

Big problem is that Ringworld teleporters kill you.

Star Trek transporters do not. (despite a hateful claim by at least one TNG writer that has been proven false.)

No one in their right mind is ever going to submit to being killed and a copy takes their place.

HUH? Where do you get that from?

Which part?
The Ringworld teleporter secret was discovered in the Gill the Arm stories. If I recall right he opts to keep it a secret as people would flip out if they ever found out. Im rather surprised the Puppeteers use them at all considering how paranoid about any harm they are.

The TNG bit was in an interview with one of the writers.

I don't remember those stories, where are they published if you remember?

"The Long Arm of Gil Hamilton," which I happen to own, and "Flatlander."  He's also shown up in various anthologies.  A bit obscure but well worth the read if you're a Niven fan.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 09, 2022, 10:13:47 PM
Now, lets get phylosophical for a bit:

How the fuck would anyone KNOW that what came out on the other side was a copy? I mean exact same DNA, exact same memories, how would anyone prove it wasn't YOU but YOUp?

They don't.  Which makes it an amusing point of argument even among ST characters.  You can approach it from various directions with logic and philosophy, but the question can't be settled empirically.

Quote from: Mishihari on May 10, 2022, 12:08:39 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 09, 2022, 10:13:47 PM
Now, lets get phylosophical for a bit:

How the fuck would anyone KNOW that what came out on the other side was a copy? I mean exact same DNA, exact same memories, how would anyone prove it wasn't YOU but YOUp?

They don't.  Which makes it an amusing point of argument even among ST characters.  You can approach it from various directions with logic and philosophy, but the question can't be settled empirically.

They should just use a soul-o-meter to detect if the transport-ee still has their soul.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 09, 2022, 10:13:47 PM
Now, lets get phylosophical for a bit:

How the fuck would anyone KNOW that what came out on the other side was a copy? I mean exact same DNA, exact same memories, how would anyone prove it wasn't YOU but YOUp?

Its been shown more than a few times that people are still conscious while being beamed.

As for Ringworld. I'll have to look it up. Probably near the end of the Gil series.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 10, 2022, 12:36:08 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on May 10, 2022, 12:08:39 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 09, 2022, 10:13:47 PM
Now, lets get phylosophical for a bit:

How the fuck would anyone KNOW that what came out on the other side was a copy? I mean exact same DNA, exact same memories, how would anyone prove it wasn't YOU but YOUp?

They don't.  Which makes it an amusing point of argument even among ST characters.  You can approach it from various directions with logic and philosophy, but the question can't be settled empirically.

They should just use a soul-o-meter to detect if the transport-ee still has their soul.

But does it detect displaced Vulcan souls stuck in other people?

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 09, 2022, 10:59:33 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 09, 2022, 10:19:35 PM

Quote from: Koltar on May 09, 2022, 05:28:03 PM
Oy Vey!!
There s no "Transporter question" or 'controversy - just people ho like to argue too much.

The setting r rules f the universe say that Transporters 'work!' and SHOW them working quite often.

There....Done with it.

Everything else is geeks or nerds with too much time on their hands (Really FUN song by STYX by-the-way)

Its your campaign - just say that transporters work as advertised.
-Ed C.

Oh teh humanities!

Nerds arguing over nerdy things on a nerdy forum! What new type of degeneracy is this? Don't those nerds have any decency or something better to do instead of playing those childish games?

No kidding. Imagine if the geek stuff was almost the only thing two posters here could agree to discuss civilly. Be a shame not to do so, right?

Right.

Quote from: Mishihari on May 10, 2022, 12:06:19 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 09, 2022, 10:13:47 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 09, 2022, 04:21:58 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 08, 2022, 02:26:11 AM

Quote from: Omega on May 07, 2022, 07:06:44 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 05, 2022, 05:20:31 PM
In Ringworld humanity has transporters, they are closed cabins and have a distance/speed limitation.

Big problem is that Ringworld teleporters kill you.

Star Trek transporters do not. (despite a hateful claim by at least one TNG writer that has been proven false.)

No one in their right mind is ever going to submit to being killed and a copy takes their place.

HUH? Where do you get that from?

Which part?
The Ringworld teleporter secret was discovered in the Gill the Arm stories. If I recall right he opts to keep it a secret as people would flip out if they ever found out. Im rather surprised the Puppeteers use them at all considering how paranoid about any harm they are.

The TNG bit was in an interview with one of the writers.

I don't remember those stories, where are they published if you remember?

"The Long Arm of Gil Hamilton," which I happen to own, and "Flatlander."  He's also shown up in various anthologies.  A bit obscure but well worth the read if you're a Niven fan.

Damn, I've read all the Ringworld, including the Protector and I'm buying the Kzin wars now there's some more books I need to buy!?

Welp, can't be helped, now... How to break it to the wife?

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 10, 2022, 07:32:22 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 10, 2022, 12:36:08 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on May 10, 2022, 12:08:39 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 09, 2022, 10:13:47 PM
Now, lets get phylosophical for a bit:

How the fuck would anyone KNOW that what came out on the other side was a copy? I mean exact same DNA, exact same memories, how would anyone prove it wasn't YOU but YOUp?

They don't.  Which makes it an amusing point of argument even among ST characters.  You can approach it from various directions with logic and philosophy, but the question can't be settled empirically.

They should just use a soul-o-meter to detect if the transport-ee still has their soul.

But does it detect displaced Vulcan souls stuck in other people?

Beat me to it.

Quote from: Omega on May 10, 2022, 01:38:54 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 09, 2022, 10:13:47 PM
Now, lets get phylosophical for a bit:

How the fuck would anyone KNOW that what came out on the other side was a copy? I mean exact same DNA, exact same memories, how would anyone prove it wasn't YOU but YOUp?

Its been shown more than a few times that people are still conscious while being beamed.

As for Ringworld. I'll have to look it up. Probably near the end of the Gil series.

IF we grant that teleportation is possible and on the other side comes out someone with your exact DNA, memories, etc, couldn't it be possible for the consciousness to be transmited?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 10, 2022, 07:12:32 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on May 10, 2022, 12:06:19 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 09, 2022, 10:13:47 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 09, 2022, 04:21:58 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 08, 2022, 02:26:11 AM

Quote from: Omega on May 07, 2022, 07:06:44 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 05, 2022, 05:20:31 PM
In Ringworld humanity has transporters, they are closed cabins and have a distance/speed limitation.

Big problem is that Ringworld teleporters kill you.

Star Trek transporters do not. (despite a hateful claim by at least one TNG writer that has been proven false.)

No one in their right mind is ever going to submit to being killed and a copy takes their place.

HUH? Where do you get that from?

Which part?
The Ringworld teleporter secret was discovered in the Gill the Arm stories. If I recall right he opts to keep it a secret as people would flip out if they ever found out. Im rather surprised the Puppeteers use them at all considering how paranoid about any harm they are.

The TNG bit was in an interview with one of the writers.

I don't remember those stories, where are they published if you remember?

"The Long Arm of Gil Hamilton," which I happen to own, and "Flatlander."  He's also shown up in various anthologies.  A bit obscure but well worth the read if you're a Niven fan.

Damn, I've read all the Ringworld, including the Protector and I'm buying the Kzin wars now there's some more books I need to buy!?

Welp, can't be helped, now... How to break it to the wife?

Good news - I checked just now and the books I mentioned are two different names for the same books.

Bad news - I think Niven's best work is the Moties series with Pournelle.  You might want to check those out too.

The soul/continuity issue is far from the only problem with transporters and not even the worst one. The "proof" that transporters don't kill you and create a clone at the other end is just the writers declaring what they want to be the case and then inventing a string of Treknobabble to justify for anyone who doesn't think to hard about it. Which is fair enough, because that's the only reason transporters function the way they do in the first place. When your FTL drive and artificial gravity aren't the most scientifically implausible things on your ship it's time to give up on any scientific explanations and handwave it as Space Magic.

But there are also applications of the in-universe science and logic that don't add up, which is worse for me. A fictional setting doesn't need to abide by the rules of the real world but it should abide by its own in a consistent way.

My main transporter issue is with regard to the Changelings from DS9. Supposedly it's impossible for any sensor to detect that someone is really a Changeling in disguise- presumably this includes the sensors built into a transporter pad. Fooling a transporter into thinking you're not what you really are while it's in the process of disassembling you and putting you back together on a molecular level strikes me as not being a smart idea. If the transporter thinks you're a human when it beams you somewhere, surely a human is what you'll be when you appear on the other side?

Then there's the fact the Latinum supposedly can't be replicated but can be beamed around with transporters with no apparent issues. Or how the various weird transporter glitches from throughout the show's history can't be deliberately reproduced in a lab.

If splitting the transporter beam and letting the second beam reflect back and rematerialize, then transporters definitely preform some replication on the other receiving end. The original is atomized and and wholly or partially transferred as a particle beam for subsequent reassembly.  None replicateable material could still be disintegrated and reassembled from their unique constituents with filler material sourced locally. Ultimately, it is a production conceit that causes no end of narrative limitations amplified by inconsistent continuity. In game it should probably be represented by a transporter availably table that mostly produces transport not possible due to treknobable when under duress.

Quote from: Mishihari on May 11, 2022, 12:42:14 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 10, 2022, 07:12:32 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on May 10, 2022, 12:06:19 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 09, 2022, 10:13:47 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 09, 2022, 04:21:58 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 08, 2022, 02:26:11 AM

Quote from: Omega on May 07, 2022, 07:06:44 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 05, 2022, 05:20:31 PM
In Ringworld humanity has transporters, they are closed cabins and have a distance/speed limitation.

Big problem is that Ringworld teleporters kill you.

Star Trek transporters do not. (despite a hateful claim by at least one TNG writer that has been proven false.)

No one in their right mind is ever going to submit to being killed and a copy takes their place.

HUH? Where do you get that from?

Which part?
The Ringworld teleporter secret was discovered in the Gill the Arm stories. If I recall right he opts to keep it a secret as people would flip out if they ever found out. Im rather surprised the Puppeteers use them at all considering how paranoid about any harm they are.

The TNG bit was in an interview with one of the writers.

I don't remember those stories, where are they published if you remember?

"The Long Arm of Gil Hamilton," which I happen to own, and "Flatlander."  He's also shown up in various anthologies.  A bit obscure but well worth the read if you're a Niven fan.

Damn, I've read all the Ringworld, including the Protector and I'm buying the Kzin wars now there's some more books I need to buy!?

Welp, can't be helped, now... How to break it to the wife?

Good news - I checked just now and the books I mentioned are two different names for the same books.

Bad news - I think Niven's best work is the Moties series with Pournelle.  You might want to check those out too.

Great!

Oh no! Stop, just stop, I'm not made out of gold! And the wife is liable to murderize me, not only for the money but the space...