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Author Topic: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?  (Read 14364 times)

GeekyBugle

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2022, 01:54:14 PM »
The soul/continuity issue is far from the only problem with transporters and not even the worst one. The "proof" that transporters don't kill you and create a clone at the other end is just the writers declaring what they want to be the case and then inventing a string of Treknobabble to justify for anyone who doesn't think to hard about it. Which is fair enough, because that's the only reason transporters function the way they do in the first place. When your FTL drive and artificial gravity aren't the most scientifically implausible things on your ship it's time to give up on any scientific explanations and handwave it as Space Magic.

But there are also applications of the in-universe science and logic that don't add up, which is worse for me. A fictional setting doesn't need to abide by the rules of the real world but it should abide by its own in a consistent way.

My main transporter issue is with regard to the Changelings from DS9. Supposedly it's impossible for any sensor to detect that someone is really a Changeling in disguise- presumably this includes the sensors built into a transporter pad. Fooling a transporter into thinking you're not what you really are while it's in the process of disassembling you and putting you back together on a molecular level strikes me as not being a smart idea. If the transporter thinks you're a human when it beams you somewhere, surely a human is what you'll be when you appear on the other side?

Then there's the fact the Latinum supposedly can't be replicated but can be beamed around with transporters with no apparent issues. Or how the various weird transporter glitches from throughout the show's history can't be deliberately reproduced in a lab.

Yes, the setting should be internally consistent, thus questions like the transporters, time travel, FTL travel, etc need to be handled BEFORE the game starts.

Anything that doesn't make sense from an inworld perspective should be dropped or changed so it is internalñly consistent.

IMHO any deus ex machina that allows to fix what shouldn't be fixable (death, world destruction, etc.) should be thrown into mount doom.
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jhkim

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2022, 03:19:47 PM »
My main transporter issue is with regard to the Changelings from DS9. Supposedly it's impossible for any sensor to detect that someone is really a Changeling in disguise- presumably this includes the sensors built into a transporter pad. Fooling a transporter into thinking you're not what you really are while it's in the process of disassembling you and putting you back together on a molecular level strikes me as not being a smart idea. If the transporter thinks you're a human when it beams you somewhere, surely a human is what you'll be when you appear on the other side?

Then there's the fact the Latinum supposedly can't be replicated but can be beamed around with transporters with no apparent issues. Or how the various weird transporter glitches from throughout the show's history can't be deliberately reproduced in a lab.

While there are a lot of transporter inconsistencies, I think there are explanations for these.

As I handled it in my Star Trek campaigns, the transporter is ultimately an analog technology that requires and projects the original matter. So when the transporter works perfectly, all of the person's atoms are put into a beam and reassembled on the other side. It can also handle some losses - so if there is disruption of the signal, it can add in some additional matter to fill in the gaps. It can handle losses of a little over 50%.

Like other analog technologies, this doesn't mean that everything transported can be replicated later or is fully understood. By analogy, just because I could photocopy a document back in 1960, that didn't mean that all of the documents copied were saved to disk and could be created again later on command. ​I also couldn't automatically detect forgeries using 1960 photocopy technology.

According to this, it is possible for a single transport to duplicate the target using the gap-filling of the pattern buffer - just like using partial mirrors, one could use analog imaging to project an image twice. But an original is always required, because the entire image isn't saved digitally.

Omega

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #62 on: May 12, 2022, 06:16:47 PM »
Now, lets get phylosophical for a bit:

How the fuck would anyone KNOW that what came out on the other side was a copy? I mean exact same DNA, exact same memories, how would anyone prove it wasn't YOU but YOUp?

They don't.  Which makes it an amusing point of argument even among ST characters.  You can approach it from various directions with logic and philosophy, but the question can't be settled empirically.

They should just use a soul-o-meter to detect if the transport-ee still has their soul.


But does it detect displaced Vulcan souls stuck in other people?

In the the Final Frontier novelization it was revealed that Vulcans like to stick their elders souls in jars. A few were not given a choice and effectively given a solitary prison sentence.

HappyDaze

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #63 on: May 12, 2022, 06:33:42 PM »
Now, lets get phylosophical for a bit:

How the fuck would anyone KNOW that what came out on the other side was a copy? I mean exact same DNA, exact same memories, how would anyone prove it wasn't YOU but YOUp?

They don't.  Which makes it an amusing point of argument even among ST characters.  You can approach it from various directions with logic and philosophy, but the question can't be settled empirically.

They should just use a soul-o-meter to detect if the transport-ee still has their soul.


But does it detect displaced Vulcan souls stuck in other people?

In the the Final Frontier novelization it was revealed that Vulcans like to stick their elders souls in jars. A few were not given a choice and effectively given a solitary prison sentence.
That's something I think I'll feature even less than time travel.

Omega

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #64 on: May 12, 2022, 06:34:20 PM »
IF we grant that teleportation is possible and on the other side comes out someone with your exact DNA, memories, etc, couldn't it be possible for the consciousness to be transmited?

Known Space shows that the teleporter does indeed kill the original and make a copy at the destination. If I recall right it either was revealed in an accident/malfunction where the original wasnt killed. Or more likely some criminal was using it to be in 2 places at once to commit some crime. The Puppeteers confirm this and that there is no soul or afterlife. Which makes their casual use of the teleporter all the more baffling considering their intense fear of death or injury.

TNG though played very loosy goosy with the teleporters. 

HappyDaze

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2022, 06:37:33 PM »
IF we grant that teleportation is possible and on the other side comes out someone with your exact DNA, memories, etc, couldn't it be possible for the consciousness to be transmited?

Known Space shows that the teleporter does indeed kill the original and make a copy at the destination. If I recall right it either was revealed in an accident/malfunction where the original wasnt killed. Or more likely some criminal was using it to be in 2 places at once to commit some crime. The Puppeteers confirm this and that there is no soul or afterlife. Which makes their casual use of the teleporter all the more baffling considering their intense fear of death or injury.

TNG though played very loosy goosy with the teleporters.
Newer series have continued ued to get loose with the transporter. Strange New Worlds allows for gearing up mid teleport (into new outfits and such) along with beaming medicine directly into people from great distances.

migo

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #66 on: May 12, 2022, 06:45:40 PM »
IF we grant that teleportation is possible and on the other side comes out someone with your exact DNA, memories, etc, couldn't it be possible for the consciousness to be transmited?

Known Space shows that the teleporter does indeed kill the original and make a copy at the destination. If I recall right it either was revealed in an accident/malfunction where the original wasnt killed. Or more likely some criminal was using it to be in 2 places at once to commit some crime. The Puppeteers confirm this and that there is no soul or afterlife. Which makes their casual use of the teleporter all the more baffling considering their intense fear of death or injury.

TNG though played very loosy goosy with the teleporters.

If transporters by design killed the original, then it would be very easy to use transporter technology to just create a duplicate, and it wouldn't be a big deal that Vorta have a series of clones. So that would indicate that you're not getting disassembled at the molecular or submolecular level and then being reassembled, but rather that you are in your entirety being shifted into another dimension/subspace for the transport. That's also consistent with when there isn't a strong enough signal or the transport gets blocked you re-materialize where you started instead of just dying.

So what you'd be getting there is an ad-hoc wormhole. The entrance to the wormhole forms around you, that way you're shifted to the wormhole dimension, and the transporter beam tries to open another entrance at the target location. If that fails, then you just leave through the original entrance that you came in through. So it's like Portal.

Wisithir

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #67 on: May 12, 2022, 08:55:22 PM »
If transporters by design killed the original, then it would be very easy to use transporter technology to just create a duplicate, and it wouldn't be a big deal that Vorta have a series of clones. So that would indicate that you're not getting disassembled at the molecular or submolecular level and then being reassembled, but rather that you are in your entirety being shifted into another dimension/subspace for the transport. That's also consistent with when there isn't a strong enough signal or the transport gets blocked you re-materialize where you started instead of just dying.
I think the disintegrate and reintegrate model is more akin to lost wax casting back in to wax. You need on original master for the transporter pattern and the pattern is lost once the subject is reconstituted. Thus, transporters can and have created a duplicate in a transport malfunction, but nominally can only make one output per pattern per input. The micro wormhole is probably how the matter beam is able to span a large distance in minimal time. Lack of death from a minor malfunction is probably one of the few safety features Trek has. If the "pattern" is not delivered to the destination for reconstitution then the original safely collapses back into its pattern at the origin.

HappyDaze

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2022, 10:27:42 PM »
You need on original master for the transporter pattern and the pattern is lost once the subject is reconstituted.
There's no good reason why the pattern would be lost if the pattern is just information, so it has to be something else that gets stored temporarily in the "pattern buffer" but I'm not sure what it would be other than handwavium.

Mishihari

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2022, 10:45:33 PM »
You need on original master for the transporter pattern and the pattern is lost once the subject is reconstituted.
There's no good reason why the pattern would be lost if the pattern is just information, so it has to be something else that gets stored temporarily in the "pattern buffer" but I'm not sure what it would be other than handwavium.

The position, state, and bonds of every atom within a human body is just a crazy amount of information.  It wouldn't be too implausible to say that the transporter processes it in batches as it goes and doesn't ever retain the whole set of information.

HappyDaze

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2022, 10:49:30 PM »
You need on original master for the transporter pattern and the pattern is lost once the subject is reconstituted.
There's no good reason why the pattern would be lost if the pattern is just information, so it has to be something else that gets stored temporarily in the "pattern buffer" but I'm not sure what it would be other than handwavium.

The position, state, and bonds of every atom within a human body is just a crazy amount of information.  It wouldn't be too implausible to say that the transporter processes it in batches as it goes and doesn't ever retain the whole set of information.
Except that is has been shown that they can maintain a pattern in the buffer for decades, and they can sometimes look back at the pattern to correct issues arising post-transport.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #71 on: May 12, 2022, 11:09:48 PM »
IF we grant that teleportation is possible and on the other side comes out someone with your exact DNA, memories, etc, couldn't it be possible for the consciousness to be transmited?

Known Space shows that the teleporter does indeed kill the original and make a copy at the destination. If I recall right it either was revealed in an accident/malfunction where the original wasnt killed. Or more likely some criminal was using it to be in 2 places at once to commit some crime. The Puppeteers confirm this and that there is no soul or afterlife. Which makes their casual use of the teleporter all the more baffling considering their intense fear of death or injury.

TNG though played very loosy goosy with the teleporters.

Funny I have read Ringworld (All 4 novels) several times and don't recall that.

IF the teleporter did kill you then the puppeteers wouldn't use it, they even refuse to travel in subspace (IIRC that's the name for FTL) and that's not guaranteed to kill you.

But I'll bite:

Lets say it does kill YOU and on the other side an exat duplicate is created that somehow has all of your memories, exact DNA and personality...

If you cut a tree in the forest and the tree doesn't fall and shows no signs of ever being cut... Did you REALLY cut the tree?

I don't even need the Soul to defeat that argument.

Furthermore, like I've said before: How the fuck would ANYONE be able to demonstrate the YOU on the exit cabin (Or pad in the Puppeteers case) is but a duplicate and not really YOU?

Again, it has ALL of your memories, personality, quirks and all and your exact DNA, scars, etc. How does anyone demonstrate it's not really YOU but YOUp?

The lore says so! Well in the first novel the lore didn't account for stuff and Ringworld was unstable. Something some Physics students made very clear to Niven and gave him the math, he came up with a solution that was incorporated in Ringworld 2: The Ringworld Engineers.

I remain unconvinced that the transporters kill you and create a duplicate. And IF the Puppeteers "demonstrated" there's no soul or afterlife... Well thats one way less anyone could have to demonstrate it's not you.

So, how is it demonstrated (beyond the say so of the lying sacks of shit of the Puppeteers) that it is so?

And the Puppeteers ARE lying sacks of shit as demonstrated once and again in the novels. Manipulative, lying sacks of shit.
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GeekyBugle

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2022, 11:16:37 PM »
You need on original master for the transporter pattern and the pattern is lost once the subject is reconstituted.
There's no good reason why the pattern would be lost if the pattern is just information, so it has to be something else that gets stored temporarily in the "pattern buffer" but I'm not sure what it would be other than handwavium.

The position, state, and bonds of every atom within a human body is just a crazy amount of information.  It wouldn't be too implausible to say that the transporter processes it in batches as it goes and doesn't ever retain the whole set of information.

LOL, you are A-Okay with FTL travel but balk at the ammount of information? On a show that has a handheld medical thingy that can diagnosticate ANYTHING on ANY species? A comunicator/universal translator built in the pin insignias of the crew? Rayguns that can act both as tasers and as death/disintegrator rays? With holodecks that not only project but the projections are solid, have smell, taste, etc?
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

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GeekyBugle

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #73 on: May 12, 2022, 11:25:46 PM »
You need on original master for the transporter pattern and the pattern is lost once the subject is reconstituted.
There's no good reason why the pattern would be lost if the pattern is just information, so it has to be something else that gets stored temporarily in the "pattern buffer" but I'm not sure what it would be other than handwavium.

The position, state, and bonds of every atom within a human body is just a crazy amount of information.  It wouldn't be too implausible to say that the transporter processes it in batches as it goes and doesn't ever retain the whole set of information.
Except that is has been shown that they can maintain a pattern in the buffer for decades, and they can sometimes look back at the pattern to correct issues arising post-transport.

The thing is, IMHO, you either accept the tech or don't, it all depends on you as the GM and how close you want to stay to canon.

I'm happy with large ammounts of handwavium, unobtanium, etc. As long as it's internally consistent. So FTL because Warp Drives powered by Dilithium Crystals (It's a gas really), fine.

Teleporting exists? Fine
The Tricorder is a thing? Perfect
I balk at time travel because it's a fucking mess and I have never seen it handled well. I'm open to be proven wrong tho.

I would just put some hard limits on both the tricorder and the teleporter, the first can make educated guesses on some species, on others not so much until it is given a good set of data about them. And the teleporter is a closed system, two cabins are needed and a cabin can transport only one living being at the time. Plus some distance/speed limits and it stops being the deus exmachina that saves the PCs from their stupidity. They have to run to the shuttle and get transported one at the time IF the mothership is in a synchronus orbit at a certain distance from the planet.
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

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jhkim

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #74 on: May 12, 2022, 11:29:58 PM »
The position, state, and bonds of every atom within a human body is just a crazy amount of information.  It wouldn't be too implausible to say that the transporter processes it in batches as it goes and doesn't ever retain the whole set of information.
Except that is has been shown that they can maintain a pattern in the buffer for decades, and they can sometimes look back at the pattern to correct issues arising post-transport.

None of this has any real-world science, but I think there is some possibility of more consistent handling of this that fits most (though not all) episode logic.

I suggested earlier that the pattern buffer seems to be more of an analog quantum image - not digital instructions that let you replicate the target at any time on command. It can be modified to some extent, just like how early photography could have some effects to the image. A completed transport requires either a material target or a saved pattern buffer. Either one gets used up in the process.