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Author Topic: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?  (Read 3446 times)

Pat

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #105 on: May 14, 2022, 03:34:37 PM »
So of the two Rikers, which had a soul and which was soulless?
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Mishihari

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #106 on: May 14, 2022, 03:54:15 PM »
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 09:31:23 PM
Quote from: Mishihari on May 13, 2022, 08:16:57 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 04:37:59 PM
Quote from: Mishihari on May 13, 2022, 01:45:55 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 12:34:40 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on May 13, 2022, 12:24:58 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 12, 2022, 11:16:37 PM
Quote from: Mishihari on May 12, 2022, 10:45:33 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on May 12, 2022, 10:27:42 PM
Quote from: Wisithir on May 12, 2022, 08:55:22 PM
You need on original master for the transporter pattern and the pattern is lost once the subject is reconstituted.
There's no good reason why the pattern would be lost if the pattern is just information, so it has to be something else that gets stored temporarily in the "pattern buffer" but I'm not sure what it would be other than handwavium.

The position, state, and bonds of every atom within a human body is just a crazy amount of information.  It wouldn't be too implausible to say that the transporter processes it in batches as it goes and doesn't ever retain the whole set of information.

LOL, you are A-Okay with FTL travel but balk at the ammount of information? On a show that has a handheld medical thingy that can diagnosticate ANYTHING on ANY species? A comunicator/universal translator built in the pin insignias of the crew? Rayguns that can act both as tasers and as death/disintegrator rays? With holodecks that not only project but the projections are solid, have smell, taste, etc?

You've hit on a pet peeve of mine.  The idea that if one accepts some unrealistic thing in fiction, then one must accept all unrealistic things.  This quickly leads off into flying foo-foo land where reality is everything in the players imagination.  I didn't say that it should be impossible to store all of that info in a Trek universe, just that if one wanted a plausible reason for a limitation, then data quantity wouldn't be a bad one.  Most of the tech you mentioned isn't all that wild.  I can at least imagine how it might work.  Transporters, on the other hand, look like a technology about a thousand years down the line in development time from the rest.  I would just as rather take it out if it weren't such a ST trope.

WUT?

I'm talking about ST's canon, what does that have to do with players pulling stuff from their ass?

I do agree that Trnasporters NEED some hard set limits for an RPG. But to do so I have to break from canon and my players must be okay with me doing so.

Same for the tricorder, it needs carved on stone limits.

Either that or both technologies have to be jetizoned IMHO.

The comment was aimed more at your point of "if you can accept ftl how can you have data limitations?" than the specifics of Trek, so not entirely on-topic.  It's a faulty argument that leads to all kinds of bad things.  It's also heard in the context of D&D:  "If it's okay to have fanciful things like dragons why can't I have a robot/vampire necromancer?"

Except the thread is about a GM wanting to run ST and what he wants or doesn't in his game. In that vein my comments are also from the GM PoV.

But do keep on telling me how me pointing all of the super tech in the setting invalidates your point about data is the same as players wanting to justify anything because dragons.

Do you always get so testy when you just don't get it?  I'll try one more time, simple as I can.  Just because there is amazing tech in a setting doesn't mean that there should be no technological limitations.  The data limitation idea was just a reasonable example of that.

Do you always backtrak while pretending you're not doing so?

What happened with "transporters exist = anything goes because dragons!"

I never said there should be no limitations, in fact if you cared to read you'd find out I DEMAND hard limits on both the transporters and the tricorder. But yours makes no sense IMHO and so I pointed that out.

Also good try with the "Why so angry bro?" but no cigar.

No backtracking here, just trying to have a conversation about a simple idea that you don't seem to understand.  I thought those were pretty good examples to explain it, but it didn't work so I returned to the fundamental idea.

And it sounds like you genuinely don't realize you're being a jerk, so rather than argue further or lob insults I'll just suggest that you work on your communication skills.
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migo

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #107 on: May 14, 2022, 05:12:59 PM »
Quote from: Pat on May 14, 2022, 03:34:37 PM
So of the two Rikers, which had a soul and which was soulless?

I'd say neither, but DS9 with Sisko as the Prophet suggests there is such a thing as a soul in ST.
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Omega

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #108 on: May 15, 2022, 01:43:01 AM »
Quote from: HappyDaze on May 13, 2022, 04:48:14 PM
Lower Decks is good Trek.

Good at mocking Star Trek and spitting on it? Yeah its good trek all right.
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Ratman_tf

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #109 on: May 15, 2022, 06:22:33 AM »
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 14, 2022, 12:48:51 PM
Quote from: jhkim on May 14, 2022, 12:32:41 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 10:31:26 PM
Without a malfunction killing you, how does the copy thing prove the transporter kills you? IMHO at best it proves it can work as a replicator.

The idea that a teleporter kills you is on the basis that the *only* thing the teleporter does is create a copy of you on the other side. It scans you, sends the information about you to the other end, and another you is created from matter that exists over there. At that point, all of the original you still exists on the sending end - so it kills you just as an afterthought. If it just didn't do that last step, the normal result would be two copies every time.

That isn't how transporters are implied to function in Star Trek, though. The implication is that the physical atoms of a person are sent through the beam to the other side and reassembled.

I think the accidental duplication of Riker is best explained as the result of error corrections. Some atoms may be lost in transport, so additional matter is injected in to fill in the gaps - using the context to fill in between. Normally this is less than 1%, but in an extreme case, as much as 50% can be lost and still produce a successful transport - because taking out half a random half of the atoms of a pattern still lets you infer the rest. So each copy got half of Riker's original matter, and the rest was inferred.

But in ST we SEE how you're FIRST disintegrated and THEN reintegrated in the destination.

We also see people conscious, talking and acting while in the process of transport.
We see Roga Danar able to "break out" of a transport beam. How the hell does that work?

In addition to the craziness of what it 'normally' does, it doesn't help that over the decades, how transporters work, and what they're capable of, is wildly inconsistent.
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HappyDaze

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #110 on: May 15, 2022, 08:23:57 AM »
Quote from: Omega on May 15, 2022, 01:43:01 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on May 13, 2022, 04:48:14 PM
Lower Decks is good Trek.

Good at mocking Star Trek and spitting on it? Yeah its good trek all right.
Mocking can be benevolent. Orville mocks Star Trek too, and it is still generally pro-Trek. Also, Mandalorian at times mocks Star Wars (see the two biker troopers near end of season 1), and yet it is still generally good Star Wars.
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Chris24601

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #111 on: May 15, 2022, 08:48:08 AM »
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 12, 2022, 11:16:37 PM
LOL, you are A-Okay with FTL travel but balk at the ammount of information? On a show that has a handheld medical thingy that can diagnosticate ANYTHING on ANY species? A comunicator/universal translator built in the pin insignias of the crew? Rayguns that can act both as tasers and as death/disintegrator rays? With holodecks that not only project but the projections are solid, have smell, taste, etc?
Since every era updates the cosmetic appearance of everything I fully expect a future series to have phasers and hyposprays as short thin sticks, the tricorder will be a transparent sphere and the new uniforms will be ankle length and come with pointy hats.
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jeff37923

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #112 on: May 15, 2022, 12:24:52 PM »
Quote from: Omega on May 15, 2022, 01:43:01 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on May 13, 2022, 04:48:14 PM
Lower Decks is good Trek.

Good at mocking Star Trek and spitting on it? Yeah its good trek all right.

Dude, Star Trek has been mocking itself since Voyager. Lower Decks at least doesn't have to rely on a woman's ass in a silvery catsuit to get viewers.
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GeekyBugle

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #113 on: May 15, 2022, 03:38:05 PM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 15, 2022, 06:22:33 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 14, 2022, 12:48:51 PM
Quote from: jhkim on May 14, 2022, 12:32:41 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 10:31:26 PM
Without a malfunction killing you, how does the copy thing prove the transporter kills you? IMHO at best it proves it can work as a replicator.

The idea that a teleporter kills you is on the basis that the *only* thing the teleporter does is create a copy of you on the other side. It scans you, sends the information about you to the other end, and another you is created from matter that exists over there. At that point, all of the original you still exists on the sending end - so it kills you just as an afterthought. If it just didn't do that last step, the normal result would be two copies every time.

That isn't how transporters are implied to function in Star Trek, though. The implication is that the physical atoms of a person are sent through the beam to the other side and reassembled.

I think the accidental duplication of Riker is best explained as the result of error corrections. Some atoms may be lost in transport, so additional matter is injected in to fill in the gaps - using the context to fill in between. Normally this is less than 1%, but in an extreme case, as much as 50% can be lost and still produce a successful transport - because taking out half a random half of the atoms of a pattern still lets you infer the rest. So each copy got half of Riker's original matter, and the rest was inferred.

But in ST we SEE how you're FIRST disintegrated and THEN reintegrated in the destination.

We also see people conscious, talking and acting while in the process of transport.
We see Roga Danar able to "break out" of a transport beam. How the hell does that work?

In addition to the craziness of what it 'normally' does, it doesn't help that over the decades, how transporters work, and what they're capable of, is wildly inconsistent.

Which is the main complaint of most people. It should be internally consistent, IDGAF if it's scientifically plausible, I want internal consistency.

So, If I were to run a game in ST, I would make some changes to the known lore to make stuff consistent and to negate all the deus ex machina mcguffins.
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

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GeekyBugle

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #114 on: May 15, 2022, 03:40:01 PM »
Quote from: jeff37923 on May 15, 2022, 12:24:52 PM
Quote from: Omega on May 15, 2022, 01:43:01 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on May 13, 2022, 04:48:14 PM
Lower Decks is good Trek.

Good at mocking Star Trek and spitting on it? Yeah its good trek all right.

Dude, Star Trek has been mocking itself since Voyager. Lower Decks at least doesn't have to rely on a woman's ass in a silvery catsuit to get viewers.

Oh noes! A show with a mainly male target audience has atractive women in sexy costumes! That's not halal!
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Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

jeff37923

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #115 on: May 15, 2022, 07:35:29 PM »
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 15, 2022, 03:40:01 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on May 15, 2022, 12:24:52 PM
Quote from: Omega on May 15, 2022, 01:43:01 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on May 13, 2022, 04:48:14 PM
Lower Decks is good Trek.

Good at mocking Star Trek and spitting on it? Yeah its good trek all right.

Dude, Star Trek has been mocking itself since Voyager. Lower Decks at least doesn't have to rely on a woman's ass in a silvery catsuit to get viewers.

Oh noes! A show with a mainly male target audience has atractive women in sexy costumes! That's not halal!

It also doesn't tend to generate good scripts for episodes.

But, you'll overlook like that for the zinger.
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"I do not want to create a story, I want to create a stage. The player characters will perform on that stage and interact with the setting. When the players talk to their friends about what their characters did, then there will be a story."

GeekyBugle

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #116 on: May 15, 2022, 07:39:28 PM »
Quote from: jeff37923 on May 15, 2022, 07:35:29 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 15, 2022, 03:40:01 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on May 15, 2022, 12:24:52 PM
Quote from: Omega on May 15, 2022, 01:43:01 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on May 13, 2022, 04:48:14 PM
Lower Decks is good Trek.

Good at mocking Star Trek and spitting on it? Yeah its good trek all right.

Dude, Star Trek has been mocking itself since Voyager. Lower Decks at least doesn't have to rely on a woman's ass in a silvery catsuit to get viewers.

Oh noes! A show with a mainly male target audience has atractive women in sexy costumes! That's not halal!

It also doesn't tend to generate good scripts for episodes.

But, you'll overlook like that for the zinger.

No, the zinger are all the fart/dick jokes and making every single male character the butt of the joke on ST: Lower IQ
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Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

jeff37923

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #117 on: May 16, 2022, 12:28:27 AM »
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 15, 2022, 07:39:28 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on May 15, 2022, 07:35:29 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 15, 2022, 03:40:01 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on May 15, 2022, 12:24:52 PM
Quote from: Omega on May 15, 2022, 01:43:01 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on May 13, 2022, 04:48:14 PM
Lower Decks is good Trek.

Good at mocking Star Trek and spitting on it? Yeah its good trek all right.

Dude, Star Trek has been mocking itself since Voyager. Lower Decks at least doesn't have to rely on a woman's ass in a silvery catsuit to get viewers.

Oh noes! A show with a mainly male target audience has atractive women in sexy costumes! That's not halal!

It also doesn't tend to generate good scripts for episodes.

But, you'll overlook like that for the zinger.

No, the zinger are all the fart/dick jokes and making every single male character the butt of the joke on ST: Lower IQ

Damn, dude. There is something wrong when you feel emasculated by a cartoon.
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"I do not want to create a story, I want to create a stage. The player characters will perform on that stage and interact with the setting. When the players talk to their friends about what their characters did, then there will be a story."

Koltar

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #118 on: May 16, 2022, 12:40:17 AM »
Quote from: jeff37923

No, the zinger are all the fart/dick jokes and making every single male character the butt of the joke on ST: Lower IQ
[/quote

Damn, dude. There is something wrong when you feel emasculated by a cartoon.

Damn Jeff,

 Everything you've posted in this thread I tend to agree with.

This is very weird.

- Ed C.
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GeekyBugle

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #119 on: May 16, 2022, 02:30:21 AM »
Quote from: jeff37923 on May 16, 2022, 12:28:27 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 15, 2022, 07:39:28 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on May 15, 2022, 07:35:29 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 15, 2022, 03:40:01 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on May 15, 2022, 12:24:52 PM
Quote from: Omega on May 15, 2022, 01:43:01 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on May 13, 2022, 04:48:14 PM
Lower Decks is good Trek.

Good at mocking Star Trek and spitting on it? Yeah its good trek all right.

Dude, Star Trek has been mocking itself since Voyager. Lower Decks at least doesn't have to rely on a woman's ass in a silvery catsuit to get viewers.

Oh noes! A show with a mainly male target audience has atractive women in sexy costumes! That's not halal!

It also doesn't tend to generate good scripts for episodes.

But, you'll overlook like that for the zinger.

No, the zinger are all the fart/dick jokes and making every single male character the butt of the joke on ST: Lower IQ

Damn, dude. There is something wrong when you feel emasculated by a cartoon.

So we now can add to your faults pretending to read minds.
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Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell
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