This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: Stance on Buying Magic Items  (Read 9034 times)

Pat
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • ?
  • Posts: 5252
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: Stance on Buying Magic Items
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2022, 12:17:50 PM »
I've never quite squared this circle. On the one hand, I like the serendipity of found magic items. OTOH, high level characters end up with obscene amounts of gold, and lots of leftover +1 swords. With all that excess, why wouldn't there be trade in magic items? Even if we assume that the creation of magic items is a lost art, at least in the big cities +1 swords should be available for sale. They're still not unique one-off items held by collectors or dynasties.

Erasing the magical economy would require turning every magic item into an artifact. Not necessarily in terms of power, but terms of rarity and uniqueness.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 12:31:51 PM by Pat »

Persimmon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 727
Re: Stance on Buying Magic Items
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2022, 12:50:23 PM »
Well, the BECMI game for sure is based on PCs accumulating huge amounts of wealth since they have the detailed rules and costs for stronghold construction.  So having that kind of cash by name level is expected..

Oh yeah, for sure... But I prefer a more of a WFRP 1e approach. Which wouldn't be that far from Lamentations of the Flame princess' style.

Yep; the WFRP approach and tone is very different.  And I do like it as well.  But that's not what we're doing in this current game.  I have done campaigns in that style, which I situate in a different time period in my campaign world's history to account for the different feel.  And I used to play a fair bit of WHFRP 2e, but haven't pulled the trigger on the new edition because I've got too many other things already and not enough time to play.

Pat
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • ?
  • Posts: 5252
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: Stance on Buying Magic Items
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2022, 12:54:36 PM »
As an addendum, one thing I've considered is improving non-magical items. For instance, fine or very fine swords might cost astronomically more, and provide a +1 or +2 or even a +3 to hit and/or damage. This is cosmetic to some degree, because it's essentially taking the mechanics of a +1 sword, and saying it's mundane. And it would require rethinking creatures that can only be hit by magical weapons. But it could reserve magic for the true exceptions.

Spirits might be hurt by cold iron or silver, requiring backup weapons that might be inferior to normal weapons, and this would as true at 14th level as at 1st. Magic-users would be de-emphasized a bit, since mundane but excellent smiths could make exceptional weapons and armor, and seeking out and befriending such smiths could be a plot driver. Elvish weapons might be mundane, yet have certain properties, like striking the noncorporeal undead, and some legendary and lost human cultures might be similar (think elvish and Numenorean blades from LotR, and their effectiveness against wights and Nazgul). Since the Expert rules explicitly deal with the exceptional nature of dwarf and gnome smiths, maybe their weapons and armor are uinque. Potions could be mostly herbal rather than magical, and widely available. Similar with certain other magic items with less ostentatious effects, like elven cloaks and boots. Maybe scrolls as well. But magic items that have explicitly magical powers might require wizards, and be unique in certain ways. This works well with intelligent swords -- all truly magical swords might have their own will. This could even be extended to other items, making them dual-edged. This would spread out the expertise; instead of seeking out wizards for answers to all magical items, you might seek out an elvish weaver to learn of the properties of their cloaks, or an alchemist to learn about reagents that cause transmutations.

Mistwell

  • Smarter than Arduin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5289
Re: Stance on Buying Magic Items
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2022, 01:12:18 PM »
Generally I am cool with buying one-time-use items like scrolls and potions, and much more stingy on multi-use items. IF I allow the purchase of multi-use items it's usually more utility things like bags of holding. Now if a player wants to make a mundane item into a magic item, like a Glaive into a +1 Glaive because they have not been able to find a magical polearm for quite some time, I will usually work with them to make arrangements to do that. But it might involve a quest for some ingredients, or to get to a particular mage who will enchant it, or to quest to get another item for the mage in exchange.

jmarso

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • j
  • Posts: 74
Re: Stance on Buying Magic Items
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2022, 01:14:55 PM »
My own .02 on this one:

Potions and scrolls can be obtained in small quantities (and great expense) from alchemists and high level wizards and such located in large towns. It's never as easy as walking into a store and breaking out a bag of gold, except maybe for some healing salves or potions. Anything else is going to cost you more than just money. On more than on occasion, I've used this sort of 'shopping' as an adventure hook by itself. Usually a quest to perform some task for the locals, like getting rid of the ankheg nest plaguing the local farmers, or planting damning documentation on a local ruler's retainers, or some such. Depends on what is going on in the campaign.

All other magical items are rare, wondrous, and to a degree, 'priceless' in that their owners won't agree to sell under any circumstances. These have to be sought out in the dungeons and other dark places of the world. What a sage or high level mage or ruler might have is a map, or some knowledge, or some such about where a desired item might be found (a dragon hoard, for instance), that are willing to part with for a high price or a cut of the loot.


Ratman_tf

  • Alt-Reich Shitlord
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8331
Re: Stance on Buying Magic Items
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2022, 01:35:40 PM »
I've never quite squared this circle. On the one hand, I like the serendipity of found magic items. OTOH, high level characters end up with obscene amounts of gold, and lots of leftover +1 swords. With all that excess, why wouldn't there be trade in magic items? Even if we assume that the creation of magic items is a lost art, at least in the big cities +1 swords should be available for sale. They're still not unique one-off items held by collectors or dynasties.

Erasing the magical economy would require turning every magic item into an artifact. Not necessarily in terms of power, but terms of rarity and uniqueness.

One idea I lifted from Earthdawn is leveling items. A sword may be +1 in the hands of a 1st level character, but becomes a +2 sword when wielded by a 5th level character, and maybe get a special ability or two along the way.
If every item levels, then you still have the problem of excess items. But a few leveling items means that a character can select a "signature" item and have it be useful over their adventuring career. And the GM can place fewer items in their adventures.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

Pat
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • ?
  • Posts: 5252
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: Stance on Buying Magic Items
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2022, 01:45:48 PM »
I've never quite squared this circle. On the one hand, I like the serendipity of found magic items. OTOH, high level characters end up with obscene amounts of gold, and lots of leftover +1 swords. With all that excess, why wouldn't there be trade in magic items? Even if we assume that the creation of magic items is a lost art, at least in the big cities +1 swords should be available for sale. They're still not unique one-off items held by collectors or dynasties.

Erasing the magical economy would require turning every magic item into an artifact. Not necessarily in terms of power, but terms of rarity and uniqueness.

One idea I lifted from Earthdawn is leveling items. A sword may be +1 in the hands of a 1st level character, but becomes a +2 sword when wielded by a 5th level character, and maybe get a special ability or two along the way.
If every item levels, then you still have the problem of excess items. But a few leveling items means that a character can select a "signature" item and have it be useful over their adventuring career. And the GM can place fewer items in their adventures.
Weapons of Legacy from 3.X was similar.

You're right that you can still end up with a basket of magic items. And another problem is you lose the serendipity, if all of a magic item's power ups are known in advance and just need to be unlocked. An interesting compromise might be to have items with a certain nature, but that nature will become expressed in different ways based on their wielder. So if your sword is shadow-themed, one user might be able to become a living shadow, another might be able to summon shadows, and a third might walk through shadows. This isn't serendipitous in the randomly rolled sense, but it could be based on the PC's personality or other aspects of their nature, or it could be quest based, with different ways of unlocking the next ability leading to different paths.

Steven Mitchell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 3772
Re: Stance on Buying Magic Items
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2022, 02:20:48 PM »
As an addendum, one thing I've considered is improving non-magical items. For instance, fine or very fine swords might cost astronomically more, and provide a +1 or +2 or even a +3 to hit and/or damage. This is cosmetic to some degree, because it's essentially taking the mechanics of a +1 sword, and saying it's mundane. And it would require rethinking creatures that can only be hit by magical weapons. But it could reserve magic for the true exceptions.

Spirits might be hurt by cold iron or silver, requiring backup weapons that might be inferior to normal weapons, and this would as true at 14th level as at 1st. Magic-users would be de-emphasized a bit, since mundane but excellent smiths could make exceptional weapons and armor, and seeking out and befriending such smiths could be a plot driver. Elvish weapons might be mundane, yet have certain properties, like striking the noncorporeal undead, and some legendary and lost human cultures might be similar (think elvish and Numenorean blades from LotR, and their effectiveness against wights and Nazgul). Since the Expert rules explicitly deal with the exceptional nature of dwarf and gnome smiths, maybe their weapons and armor are uinque. Potions could be mostly herbal rather than magical, and widely available. Similar with certain other magic items with less ostentatious effects, like elven cloaks and boots. Maybe scrolls as well. But magic items that have explicitly magical powers might require wizards, and be unique in certain ways. This works well with intelligent swords -- all truly magical swords might have their own will. This could even be extended to other items, making them dual-edged. This would spread out the expertise; instead of seeking out wizards for answers to all magical items, you might seek out an elvish weaver to learn of the properties of their cloaks, or an alchemist to learn about reagents that cause transmutations.

For my current campaign, I'm doing something similar.  My sop to keeping it "magical" is that things like the +1 weapons are crafted but the process itself requires considerable magic and specific expertise that is closely guarded.  The crafter doesn't need to be a spell caster necessarily but they do need to know some "crafting magic" that is peculiar to the thing they are making.   Elves making elven cloaks and boots and dwarven smiths was very much a part of that idea.  Theoretically, a dedicated player could learn to make a few things, but there is no generic ability for wizards to make any old item a player might want. 

That's my compromise for keeping it somewhat rare while still acknowledging that someone made all those +1 weapons that are found.

Pat
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • ?
  • Posts: 5252
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: Stance on Buying Magic Items
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2022, 03:22:48 PM »
As an addendum, one thing I've considered is improving non-magical items. For instance, fine or very fine swords might cost astronomically more, and provide a +1 or +2 or even a +3 to hit and/or damage. This is cosmetic to some degree, because it's essentially taking the mechanics of a +1 sword, and saying it's mundane. And it would require rethinking creatures that can only be hit by magical weapons. But it could reserve magic for the true exceptions.

Spirits might be hurt by cold iron or silver, requiring backup weapons that might be inferior to normal weapons, and this would as true at 14th level as at 1st. Magic-users would be de-emphasized a bit, since mundane but excellent smiths could make exceptional weapons and armor, and seeking out and befriending such smiths could be a plot driver. Elvish weapons might be mundane, yet have certain properties, like striking the noncorporeal undead, and some legendary and lost human cultures might be similar (think elvish and Numenorean blades from LotR, and their effectiveness against wights and Nazgul). Since the Expert rules explicitly deal with the exceptional nature of dwarf and gnome smiths, maybe their weapons and armor are uinque. Potions could be mostly herbal rather than magical, and widely available. Similar with certain other magic items with less ostentatious effects, like elven cloaks and boots. Maybe scrolls as well. But magic items that have explicitly magical powers might require wizards, and be unique in certain ways. This works well with intelligent swords -- all truly magical swords might have their own will. This could even be extended to other items, making them dual-edged. This would spread out the expertise; instead of seeking out wizards for answers to all magical items, you might seek out an elvish weaver to learn of the properties of their cloaks, or an alchemist to learn about reagents that cause transmutations.

For my current campaign, I'm doing something similar.  My sop to keeping it "magical" is that things like the +1 weapons are crafted but the process itself requires considerable magic and specific expertise that is closely guarded.  The crafter doesn't need to be a spell caster necessarily but they do need to know some "crafting magic" that is peculiar to the thing they are making.   Elves making elven cloaks and boots and dwarven smiths was very much a part of that idea.  Theoretically, a dedicated player could learn to make a few things, but there is no generic ability for wizards to make any old item a player might want. 

That's my compromise for keeping it somewhat rare while still acknowledging that someone made all those +1 weapons that are found.
The idea that there's this clear boundary between the normal world and magic is a modern conceit. After all, medieval people believed smiths sung spells into their work, and we're not talking about exceptional smiths. It's just how it worked. It wasn't only about alloys and temper, there was also something numinous where craft melded into mystery and wonder.

I think a lot of the problem is that modern people think of magic as something extra. There's the world, which by default is normal and perfectly mundane, and magic is this gloss over the top, or a set of cheat codes. I prefer to treat magic as something essential. It's not something extra, it's how things work. Magic is everywhere and in all things, and is part of everyday life.

This manifests in how D&D has treated magic-users and magic items. Only magic-users can create magic items, right? Except... why? Why can't a great smith craft the greatest sword of all time, or an elf weave a cloak so perfectly that it blends in with stone? There's this association with blatant spellcasting, and any magic at all.

I like the idea that there's magic in the blade of a sword, even the less exceptional ones. It may not be much magic, but it's there. And that means that an exceptional smith can make a sword of high pussiance, with no involvement from wizards at all.

For scarcity, I think it makes sense to assume there really are people who are exceptional at crafts. The BECMI weapon mastery system introduced the idea of basic, skilled, expert, master, and grandmaster tiers for weapon proficiency. A similar concept could be introduced for crafts. A basic smith might make a basic sword, if you want a +1 blade, you might need to find an exceptional smith. A +2 sword might require a real master. And a +3 blade might require someone of legendary skill and talent. The same could apply to potions -- simple healing philters might be the province of random travelers or good folk, while a potion of giant strength might require more skill.

That turns magic items into an exercise in roleplaying. There might be only one person capable of making +3 swords in all the land, and if you piss him off, no swords for you. In general, you have to seek out these sources, and over time develop contacts and earn favors.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 03:29:45 PM by Pat »

Shasarak

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4032
Re: Stance on Buying Magic Items
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2022, 03:29:16 PM »
So our OSE party lost its (8th level) cleric last night and was unable to bring her back.  It happened towards the end of the adventure so they weren't really affected by it in terms of healing and what not, but now the characters want to buy potions of healing and possibly a couple other magic items for their upcoming adventures, which will be the "Saga of the Giants" series for BFRPG.  My general policy is that potions and low level scrolls are pretty readily available, particularly in large cities, but more powerful items are both very rare and expensive.  I still generally use the prices in the DMG as a baseline.  So in the current situation, as the party will be starting in one of my campaign's larger cities, I have no problem with them buying potions of healing, though I'll put a cap on it.  Still pondering the bag of holding they want, though the 25,000 gp price tag in the DMG seems fair enough, I suppose.

What about you?  Do you let players buy magic items?  Or do they have to earn (or steal) them the good old fashioned way?

How did the party get to level 8 without picking up potions of healing at the very least?

Even as random loot.   Seems like a rookie mistake.
Who da Drow?  U da drow! - hedgehobbit

There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

Persimmon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 727
Re: Stance on Buying Magic Items
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2022, 05:21:23 PM »

[/quote]

How did the party get to level 8 without picking up potions of healing at the very least?

Even as random loot.   Seems like a rookie mistake.
[/quote]

They were used up.  And the cleric had a double-strength staff of healing that served fairly well for routine healing.  But when she died, there was no one who could use it, as it is a "cleric-only" item.  And ironically, the party breezed through most of the adventure, taking minimal damage.  It was right before the end when the monstrous centipede struck the killing blow.  No one else was lost in this adventure but they know the next one will require the services of a cleric.  But they're also buying some healing potions, or at least hoping to.

But this group is use to losing party members.  They started with 12 PCs and only 7 are still alive from that cohort.

mightybrain

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • m
  • Posts: 454
Re: Stance on Buying Magic Items
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2022, 05:29:42 PM »
I've toyed with the idea of making magic potions addictive and with diminishing effects if used more than once a day. Otherwise why wouldn't you just stock up on potions at the earliest opportunity.

Zelen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 861
Re: Stance on Buying Magic Items
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2022, 05:56:10 PM »
Buying magical items has always struck me as wrong. If magical items are common enough that they can be mass-produced or sold using gold, they aren't magical anymore. Magic items should always be at-best items of barter, favors, or quest rewards.

This is somewhat distinct from whether an item should have a mechanical (in a game-design sense) value associated with it.

S'mon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13315
Re: Stance on Buying Magic Items
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2022, 06:13:55 PM »
As an addendum, one thing I've considered is improving non-magical items. For instance, fine or very fine swords might cost astronomically more, and provide a +1 or +2 or even a +3 to hit and/or damage. This is cosmetic to some degree, because it's essentially taking the mechanics of a +1 sword, and saying it's mundane. And it would require rethinking creatures that can only be hit by magical weapons. But it could reserve magic for the true exceptions.

Spirits might be hurt by cold iron or silver, requiring backup weapons that might be inferior to normal weapons, and this would as true at 14th level as at 1st. Magic-users would be de-emphasized a bit, since mundane but excellent smiths could make exceptional weapons and armor, and seeking out and befriending such smiths could be a plot driver. Elvish weapons might be mundane, yet have certain properties, like striking the noncorporeal undead, and some legendary and lost human cultures might be similar (think elvish and Numenorean blades from LotR, and their effectiveness against wights and Nazgul). Since the Expert rules explicitly deal with the exceptional nature of dwarf and gnome smiths, maybe their weapons and armor are uinque. Potions could be mostly herbal rather than magical, and widely available. Similar with certain other magic items with less ostentatious effects, like elven cloaks and boots. Maybe scrolls as well. But magic items that have explicitly magical powers might require wizards, and be unique in certain ways. This works well with intelligent swords -- all truly magical swords might have their own will. This could even be extended to other items, making them dual-edged. This would spread out the expertise; instead of seeking out wizards for answers to all magical items, you might seek out an elvish weaver to learn of the properties of their cloaks, or an alchemist to learn about reagents that cause transmutations.

For my current campaign, I'm doing something similar.  My sop to keeping it "magical" is that things like the +1 weapons are crafted but the process itself requires considerable magic and specific expertise that is closely guarded.  The crafter doesn't need to be a spell caster necessarily but they do need to know some "crafting magic" that is peculiar to the thing they are making.   Elves making elven cloaks and boots and dwarven smiths was very much a part of that idea.  Theoretically, a dedicated player could learn to make a few things, but there is no generic ability for wizards to make any old item a player might want. 

That's my compromise for keeping it somewhat rare while still acknowledging that someone made all those +1 weapons that are found.
The idea that there's this clear boundary between the normal world and magic is a modern conceit. After all, medieval people believed smiths sung spells into their work, and we're not talking about exceptional smiths. It's just how it worked. It wasn't only about alloys and temper, there was also something numinous where craft melded into mystery and wonder.

I think a lot of the problem is that modern people think of magic as something extra. There's the world, which by default is normal and perfectly mundane, and magic is this gloss over the top, or a set of cheat codes. I prefer to treat magic as something essential. It's not something extra, it's how things work. Magic is everywhere and in all things, and is part of everyday life.

This manifests in how D&D has treated magic-users and magic items. Only magic-users can create magic items, right? Except... why? Why can't a great smith craft the greatest sword of all time, or an elf weave a cloak so perfectly that it blends in with stone? There's this association with blatant spellcasting, and any magic at all.

I like the idea that there's magic in the blade of a sword, even the less exceptional ones. It may not be much magic, but it's there. And that means that an exceptional smith can make a sword of high pussiance, with no involvement from wizards at all.

For scarcity, I think it makes sense to assume there really are people who are exceptional at crafts. The BECMI weapon mastery system introduced the idea of basic, skilled, expert, master, and grandmaster tiers for weapon proficiency. A similar concept could be introduced for crafts. A basic smith might make a basic sword, if you want a +1 blade, you might need to find an exceptional smith. A +2 sword might require a real master. And a +3 blade might require someone of legendary skill and talent. The same could apply to potions -- simple healing philters might be the province of random travelers or good folk, while a potion of giant strength might require more skill.

That turns magic items into an exercise in roleplaying. There might be only one person capable of making +3 swords in all the land, and if you piss him off, no swords for you. In general, you have to seek out these sources, and over time develop contacts and earn favors.

Yes, this is how I generally do it, it works well for most settings. The rare exceptions being Modernist swords & sorcery that treats Magic as Un-Natural. There, maybe Conan's Atlantean sword isn't actually 'magic', it's just a really really good sword. In a more typical setting that's a distinction without a difference.

Abraxus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2434
Re: Stance on Buying Magic Items
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2022, 09:37:24 PM »
It all depends on the setting if it is high magic with plentiful ways to build or create magic weapons then they are easier to get. Especially if they are the usual generic magic items. If they are named weapons or some of my own creations then they are harder to buy and come by.

DMs forget that higher level characters have access to more money, resources and abilites to create weapons armor etc. Otherwise what is the point of leveling so that a 13th level character is still having to do mother/father may I. I don't mind from levels 1-10. I'm not going to just ignore what the players can do either.

Now if it is low level magic, items are hard to come by then definitely harder to find,buy and make. Though at the same time I make sure not to throw impossible odds at the character or continual monsters that require magic to hit. They are adventures and playing dungeons and dragons. they should not have to run away from every encounter because some DMs are too stingy and cheap with resources.