Quote from: JimBobOzOn Baugh's LJ, I pointed out the irony that two middle-classed white straight guys will be the ones writing about "marginalised groups." Baugh's response to that was to ban me from commenting on his LJ. So I'm not optimistic about this project, since if you're going to write about stuff you have no experience of, then you've got to be willing to take criticism and other input to make it any good. I also wonder if the people at EvilHat know any members of "marginalised groups" who can string a sentence together about roleplaying.

Actually, he banned you after following a link to Pundit's blog where you had posted about how fun it was to snark at him.  It wasn't your post on his blog, it was the content of your other posts elsewhere which shed light on your post in his blog.

Quote from: StuartI must be misunderstanding something here...  Is there something in Spirit of the Century that stops you from saying "My Scientist is Asian", or "My Ace Reporter is African American"?  Is there something stopping you from having any of your characters be female if you like?  Can't you give them whatever backstory you want to?

I had the same query.  It never even crossed my mind that any of the material in the game was specifically white.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonNope.  There is, however, a lack of discussion of the problems discriminated groups faced in the 1920s.

I just took a look at the Sample Characters(pdf) and it doesn't look like it's a heavy realism type game.  There weren't really jet packs and magic using crime fighters in the 20s.

Why would the game need to include discussion of problems of discrimination?  I bet it doesn't talk about all sorts of real world problems from the real world 20s in favour of talking about fun, pulpy, adventurey things instead.

Maybe I'll see if the links on John's site explain this any better.

Quote from: StuartI just took a look at the Sample Characters(pdf) and it doesn't look like it's a heavy realism type game.  There weren't really jet packs and magic using crime fighters in the 20s.

If you're really not familiar with the game, here's a link to my review: http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12558.phtml

I hope that helps.  No, it's not a "heavy realism" game.

Oh, just to add, I think Bruce is a talented rpg writer with a good grasp of the pulps, I think he's a good choice for this project.

Quote from: StuartWhy would the game need to include discussion of problems of discrimination?  I bet it doesn't talk about all sorts of real world problems from the real world 20s in favour of talking about fun, pulpy, adventurey things instead.

I think this is a good point. If a game is not realistic than it should include a diverse range of character types regardless of gender, race and sexuality. The problem* I think, is that most times even though a game is not realistic if fails to make these types of characters part of the game.

*Of course it's only a problem if you think that these types of characters should be included in a game.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: BalbinusActually, he banned you after following a link to Pundit's blog where you had posted about how fun it was to snark at him.  It wasn't your post on his blog, it was the content of your other posts elsewhere which shed light on your post in his blog.

He should be an rpg.net mod with that approach!

But hey, you can have fun making fun of someone, and yet still be speaking the truth - or at least saying something not completely insane. If a man is wearing a teapot on his head and calling it a hat, that I am laughing at him does not change the fact that a teapot is not a suitable hat.

Mockery with substance. And in answer to the old question, no, we can't stop mocking. If you take mockery out of the internet, all you're left with is conspiracy theories and pr0n.

Quote from: StuartWhy would the game need to include discussion of problems of discrimination? I bet it doesn't talk about all sorts of real world problems from the real world 20s in favour of talking about fun, pulpy, adventurey things instead.

I don't think it really has to. As you mentioned, movies like Shanghai Noon don't discuss discrimination, but they still include characters other than the ones which are cliches for the genre.

It seems that the original issue was that women weren't present in the game except in the form of tired old cliches. A game is more interesting if it allows you options - different styles of gaming, different kinds of characters, and so on. If we can have 2,000+ d20 feats, I don't see why we can't have Africans in HEROES: Unlimited! (TM) or non-cliched women characters in Spirit of the Century. After all, what was the "spirit" of the 20th century, but gradual emancipation, rising education and diversity of the world?

Quote from: JimBobOzIt seems that the original issue was that women weren't present in the game except in the form of tired old cliches.

What I'm struggling with is why you wouldn't just make your entrepid explorer or ace reporter a woman?  It's not in the into story or background text?  Is it the illustrations and sample characers?

Quote from: StuartIs it the illustrations and sample characers?

Yep, the person analyzed the art and depictions of women in the product.

Quote from: JimBobOzBut hey, you can have fun making fun of someone, and yet still be speaking the truth - or at least saying something not completely insane. If a man is wearing a teapot on his head and calling it a hat, that I am laughing at him does not change the fact that a teapot is not a suitable hat.

 Maybe.  But then don't get indignant when the teapot wearer smacks you in the face for being rude.  After all, he's wearing the teapot because he thinks it looks good.  By laughing at him, you're effectively questioning his fashion sense.

As for speaking the truth, I'm not really sure what your aim is there.  Did you just want to try and be controversial, or do you really want to see the project succeed?  If it's the former, you can't really blame Bruce for banning you.  And if it's the latter, your mockery isn't very productive.

Quote from: StuartI must be misunderstanding something here...  Is there something in Spirit of the Century that stops you from saying "My Scientist is Asian", or "My Ace Reporter is African American"?  Is there something stopping you from having any of your characters be female if you like?  Can't you give them whatever backstory you want to?

I'm honestly interested in this, as it's a topic I've been thinking about for my own game development.

I'm'a side with Stuart on this, because I agree with him.

Okay, okay, so.  Historically-accurate pulp would not, indeed, offer up Tammy Strong or Black Tarzan or Chow Yun "The Shadow" Fat.  However, last time I checked, we get down with this hobby for fun, so if you think it's fun to play a Mexican supersoldier patriot trick-shooter in 1930s America and not worry about the racism and the hassles and the ugly, ugly truth...well, it's a fantasy, after all.  Elves don't even exist and we put those mofos every-damn-where and no one peeps.

Heh heh heh.  Elves and Mexicans.

Quote from: StuartWhat I'm struggling with is why you wouldn't just make your entrepid explorer or ace reporter a woman?  It's not in the into story or background text?  Is it the illustrations and sample characers?

That's an old question, really. "Just because the game is about X, can't we use it for Y?" It's the same as why you wouldn't have a D&D game of non-violent political and social interactions, or a game of GURPS where you didn't worry about the rules too much, or a serious and thespy game of Risus.

You can do it. You can do anything. But when you first read through a game, you're most likely to play it more or less in the way the game designers wrote it up. The writing of the game influences your playstyle.

The writing style doesn't determine your playstyle, but it influences it.

Also, if you want to play a kind of character not covered by the game, then you'll have to make it all up yourself. And that's another old question, similar to the first, "Can't we just make it up ourselves?" Sure we can, in principle - but if we always could in practice, then we wouldn't need to buy any rpg books at all.

That's why d20 has 2,000+ feats, and GURPS has 300+ skills, and Hero about a zillion pages - because people don't want to have to make everything up themselves.

So a supplement about women in the Spirit of the Century game world, it's not, "oh no, we don't have it, we can't play women!" It's more like, "well, this will make it easier for us to play women." Or black Americans, or Chinese, or whatever.

Quote from: Tyberious FunkMaybe.  But then don't get indignant when the teapot wearer smacks you in the face for being rude.  After all, he's wearing the teapot because he thinks it looks good.  By laughing at him, you're effectively questioning his fashion sense.

Sure. But his indignation just makes him look more ridiculous than he did in the first place.

A smack I don't mind. If you're going to give shit, you have to expect to get some, too. But a silencing? "La la la la la I can't hear you!" Grow up.

Quote from: Tyberious FunkAs for speaking the truth, I'm not really sure what your aim is there.  Did you just want to try and be controversial, or do you really want to see the project succeed?  If it's the former, you can't really blame Bruce for banning you.  And if it's the latter, your mockery isn't very productive.

Mockery is almost always productive. If a white middle-classed straight male is going to write about "The Other", then he won't be able to do it well without a bit of self-doubt, and questioning of himself. Mockery creates self-doubt, and can lead to a person questioning themselves. "Is a teapot really good for a hat?" Either the mocker's comment is somewhat true, in which case it should be listened to; or the mocker's comment is untrue and wrong, in which case it should be easy to deal with in a short response.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Heh heh heh.  Elves and Mexicans.

Cue the griffon-riders making a mockery of the US Border Patrol.

Quote from: JimBobOzSo a supplement about women in the Spirit of the Century game world, it's not, "oh no, we don't have it, we can't play women!" It's more like, "well, this will make it easier for us to play women." Or black Americans, or Chinese, or whatever.

I totally get what you're saying, too.  I guess it depends on how your women and your blacks fit into your world.  If they're second-class citizens, then a supplement that details their status in the game world is useful, but you kind of have to want that kind of game.  

Personally, I like the idea of just ignoring it and going the Shanghai Noon way.  Yeah, it's a woman, a black guy, two gay dudes and a couple of Thai folks.  They fight crime!  Oh, no -- Polish robots attack New York!