Quote from: Werekoala;378531So Warhammer has caught up with D&D.

Did it ever cut the umbilical cord?

Quote from: Werekoala;378531So Warhammer has caught up with D&D.

They should make that their new slogan.

Quote from: RPGPundit;378479Most of the 40k universe has become increasingly stupid as it goes along; compared to what 40k was like when it was first conceived.

I was inclined to disagree... but after a bit of thought... no, I concur.
It's always been a silly/wacky setting... but GW has tried to whitewash a lot of the wackiness out of it... make it less obviously satirical... dumbing it down bit by bit. Trying to have it make some kind of sense.
By trying to make it less dumb they've gone and made it dumber than ever.

Very similar to what Disney has done with Mickey Mouse... he's gone from being a wild Id-like character to becoming a bland corporate icon who can't even be allowed to star in cartoons anymore because he's too strapped down to be funny any more. http://allears.net/ae/issue495.htm
Same thing as Star Trek as well... great weird fun in it's early days... now it's got so much damn money stuff up it's crack it can't barely move. http://www.youtube.com/user/RedLetterMedia#p/u/28/8ZjkHUrEuHc

Quote from: Simlasa;378660I was inclined to disagree... but after a bit of thought... no, I concur.
It's always been a silly/wacky setting... but GW has tried to whitewash a lot of the wackiness out of it... make it less obviously satirical... dumbing it down bit by bit. Trying to have it make some kind of sense.
By trying to make it less dumb they've gone and made it dumber than ever.

Exactly. They sucked all the Gonzo out of it, and lo and behold, what you're left with when you remove the Gonzo is something truly idiotic.

RPGPundit

I had a look at the original RT the other day.

No chaos (just random warp monsters).
Squats (or, to be more accurate, a race of mini-me Fidel Castro-alikes with guns).
Less emo Eldar (complete with pics of them working with Imperium and Squats).
Slann.
Mercenaries/Outcasts (lots of instances of people who, living on the fringe, which seems the deafult setting, were rejects, outcasts and outlaws from the Imperium).
Rogue Traders without 90,000 crew listings.
Jokaero
Tyrannids
Orks that seemed a tad less, well, stupid (though still clearly lampooning football fans).
Less gothic more punk

Not really a more benign Imperium/universe, but a more functional one. One where players can actually do stuff without summoning a daemon accidentally, getting slaughtered, or liquidated for heresy.

Were there Tyranids in RT? I thought the came later, I'll have to go look...

Oh, they were pretty much limited to the hormagaunts at first... nasty little guys.
Genestealers weren't originally shown to be related and were the bigger threat back then... and were seemingly aligned with Chaos sometimes (the Genestealer Invasion rules in an old White Dwarf had an option for them to start out as an infected Chaos cult and being able summon demons).

Quote from: Simlasa;379315Were there Tyranids in RT? I thought the came later, I'll have to go look...

Oh, they were pretty much limited to the hormagaunts at first... nasty little guys.
Genestealers weren't originally shown to be related and were the bigger threat back then... and were seemingly aligned with Chaos sometimes (the Genestealer Invasion rules in an old White Dwarf had an option for them to start out as an infected Chaos cult and being able summon demons).

I didn't read it, just had a look through. The art that dominates is more akin to Cyberpunk and something like 2000ad (ie comics as opposed to the gothic/fine art of now).

Space Hulk can't have been much later than RT and that had genestealers.

Stats for things like Arbites officers as well; Inquisitors are more secret police than anti-chaos; the Imperial Guard are the Imperial Army (iirc). Much smaller scale (which I vastly preferred and didn't realise they'd ever changed). No Dark Eldar or Necrons of course. No Webway (it's merely hinted at). Lots of mohawks on the Eldar.

You can see the evolution from something like Laserburn more clearly. Even 2e is more similar to modern incarnations than 1e/RT.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;379260Not really a more benign Imperium/universe, but a more functional one. One where players can actually do stuff without summoning a daemon accidentally, getting slaughtered, or liquidated for heresy.

If anything the imperium BITD was less benign.  Far, far less.  The whole "thousands of sacrifices a day to keep the Emperor in a state of unDeath" kinda knock them out of the running for "Benign" by any notion.

I think that's probably why they eviled up the Tau.  By the early 2000's description the Tau were practically heaven sent to liberate the galaxy.

That aspect was always there. But the Imperium of RT was less the impossible monolith it is now - in relative terms.

If you really want to see something like the Space Marines done in a non-cheesy, and, IMO, totally awesome way, go ready Chris Moeller's IRON EMPIRES

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;379260I had a look at the original RT the other day.

No chaos (just random warp monsters).
Squats (or, to be more accurate, a race of mini-me Fidel Castro-alikes with guns).
Less emo Eldar (complete with pics of them working with Imperium and Squats).
Slann.
Mercenaries/Outcasts (lots of instances of people who, living on the fringe, which seems the deafult setting, were rejects, outcasts and outlaws from the Imperium).
Rogue Traders without 90,000 crew listings.
Jokaero
Tyrannids
Orks that seemed a tad less, well, stupid (though still clearly lampooning football fans).
Less gothic more punk

Not really a more benign Imperium/universe, but a more functional one. One where players can actually do stuff without summoning a daemon accidentally, getting slaughtered, or liquidated for heresy.

Exactly. THAT is the WH40K universe I'd want to play in, the one they should have made the RPG of.

RPGPundit

Evil or not, the Imperium back then was less stupid, and sucked less. That's the point, that 40K has redesigned itself as a useless, unplayable, stupid stupid world, utterly unqualified to be an RPG setting, whereas back then it would have made a perfectly functional RPG setting.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;379672Evil or not, the Imperium back then was less stupid, and sucked less. That's the point, that 40K has redesigned itself as a useless, unplayable, stupid stupid world, utterly unqualified to be an RPG setting, whereas back then it would have made a perfectly functional RPG setting.

RPGPundit

Though it started a lot more RPGlike (complete with a GM, although he quickly became superfluous tbh), it's not intended to be an rpg setting. I don't really think , of all the criticisms you can level at 40k/GW, that's one of them.