(arrives here, and throws a molotov cocktail at once)

  Edena_of_Neith here. Bullitt, I welcome your reply - if any - to this post.

I discovered a consequence of the rules in the Book of Exalted Deeds that was rather staggering. Now obviously, such a thing could be Rule Zeroed, but considering what is required of a Player Character to be Exalted, and considering the consequences of the power, I have no problem with such power in the hands of a player. It was a power earned.
I will explain.

A good aligned character can capture an enemy, and through words, talk that enemy into becoming neutral, and then good aligned. This was in chapter 2, and the result is the Redeemed Villain. These are standard rules from the Book of Exalted Deeds.

I read the rules, and took a good long look at the sample Redeemed Villain, and examined the implications, and then about fell over in shock.

An EXALTED character, can do more than redeem a villain to merely good alignment. An EXALTED character, can redeem a villain into an Exalted NPC.
And more to the point, the deities themselves accept this ... or at least, the Exalted deities do, and there are Exalted deities in any world with Exalted characters (or, at least, I think there should be.)

The implications of the above are simple: an Exalted character can start an Exalted Plague.
If my Exalted character captures the evil King, gently imprisons him, then talks him (7 failed saves for neutral, 7 failed saves for good, and - by extrapolation - 7 failed saves for exalted) into becoming an Exalted King, it is only natural that this King now goes out and imprisons his evil Steward, and talks them into becoming Exalted.
Now, the Exalted King and Exalted Steward capture and talk the evil High Cleric of the Realm and the evil High Wizard of the Realm into becoming Exalted.
Then the four of them capture and talk the top 4 evil Warlords of the Realm into becoming Exalted.
Then the 8 of them capture and talk the remaining top 8 evil figures of the Realm into becoming Exalted.
Then the 16 of them ...

And all of this is done in top secret, of course. By the time the Powers of Evil know what is happening, it is too late.
Before it is over, the once evil Realm is now an Exalted Realm, and every last peasant and dryad in the most remote forest is now Exalted. For it is the nature of Exalted beings, that they are driven to change the world ... and if talking with others is the way to effect change, then they will talk.

The change continues. Talking is very easy, especially when there are game mechanics - rules - now available that allows talking to work.
No villain is immune.
If a mind flayer - a member of one of the most evil and alien races imaginable - can be converted to Exalted, then pretty much everything else is fair game as well.
Certainly, humans, demihumans, humanoids, and the subterranean races such as the drow, are subject to turning. Mighty evil races like the phaerimm would have been in question, but if the illithid can be turned, so can the phaerimm!

So ...

Like the Sunbane from Stephen Donaldson's The Wounded Land, the Exalted Plague grows. It GROWS, consuming every Land and Sea in it's turn until the world is drowned and lost in the Light of the Upper Planes.

This is power on a scale that dwarfs the power of the Chosen of Mystra.
This is power on a scale that dwarfs the heroism of Huma, the tragic strength of the Srinshee, and the dark cunning of Dalamar.
This is power on a scale equivalent to Raistlin. This is the power to Remake the World In Your Own Image.

We know that it is almost impossible to become Exalted. It requires living up to standards that are all but impossible. It requires a mindset that is so different from the norm as to be almost beyond contemplation.
But for the character who CAN pull it off, it offers the power to remake the very world. And this remake, can be pulled off very quickly. I would daresay even the deities, accustomed to the status quo, might be unable to react in time to stop what is happening ... by the time they react, their power is eroded and it is too late!

You will say: kill the Exalted character before she can begin the Plague.
That is all fine and well. But unless the deities are directly involved (unlikely) this is going to be difficult.
The other Champions of Good are going to protect the Exalted character, at least at first (even they won't realize what they are getting themselves into, in time.)
Other Exalted NPCs will move to protect the Exalted character.
And the Exalted character, if she is smart, will have long prepared for this moment, and be ready to face whatever enemies the Forces of Evil and the Forces of Neutrality can hurl at her.

The Forces of Evil are not omniscient. They cannot track down and kill every Exalted character in existence. And that is the only way they could have prevented the Exalted Plagues from starting.
Once the Exalted Plague has started, what do they do now? Track down the source? It's too late: the source is now everywhere.

The mechanics of the rules in Chapter 2 hand power into the hands of an Exalted character on a scale that makes Apocalypse from the Sky seem small and insignificant in comparison.

I must wonder, if this is what you intended, Bullitt, when you and the others wrote the book?
Because *I* at least, very quickly realized the implications of that rule in chapter 2.

And (chuckles) I would not dream of changing it, would not dream of Rule Zeroing it!
If someone is up to the almost impossible challenge of playing an Exalted character, why not give them the rewards?!
I would do, just that!

The fact that it would mean World War (ala, something on the magnitude of the IR, only serious) not withstanding.

But is this what you intended? I am curious.

Edena_of_Neith

I am not familiar with the Book of Exalted Deeds so would you please provide a chapter number or preferably a page number to the mechanics that you mention.  I can read it over so that I may better reply to your thread.  

I don't remember the exact page.

  The Redeeming a Villain rules were in chapter two of the BOED.  
  There was a redeemed villain (an illithid/mind flayer) in the book.  It's hard to miss her (it's a her!) as her picture is most gruesomely exquisite.

I found it and the likelihood of actually passing all 14+ checks in a row is rather remote.  Plus since it it doesn't then say that 7 more make the character Exalted I would rule that being Exalted must be accomplished through ones own deeds and actions.

Reading through the beginning of I came to a couple of conclusions.  Exalted is not like an alignment component.  It is much more complicated than that.  Taking an Exalted feat isn't as simple as reaching the right level and meeting the requirements.

Here's a quote on exalted feats from page 39 of BOED.

QuoteOnly intelligent characters of good alignment and the highest moral standards can acquire exalted feats, and only as a gift from powerful agents of good - deities, celestials, or similar creatures

A character must have the DM's permission to take an exalted feat.  In many cases a ritual must be performed; often this simply amounts to a character swearing a sacred vow for example, in the presence of a celestial being.  A character who willingly and willfully commits an evil act loses all benefits from all exalted feats.

I considered what you just said.  I had doubts also.

  But if you look in the Exalted spells, you'll see they have a spell that grants the person a direct vision of the Upper Planes, and this affects the saving throw.
  I don't remember the spell name.  Sorry.  But it's there.  It's a low level spell, of 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level.  It's definitely a spell from the BOED, not from any other source.

  Of course, there are other - more mundane - spells that could affect the saving throw too.

  But there is a more pertinent matter ...

  -

  Ok, let's assume an Exalted character cannot convert a villain into an Exalted NPC (although that illithid, I believe, had become Exalted ... and THAT was a severe shock.  Think about it!)
  But let's assume an Exalted Character can only convert a villain into a merely Good NPC.

  The Exalted Plague still occurs.

  It still occurs because any merely Good character can also use the game mechanical rules set forth in chapter 2 of the Book of Exalted Deeds, to gently imprison a villain, and then talk that villain into becoming good himself.
  Thus, the Good Guys, by talking villains into becoming Good Guys, create more Good Guys, who create more Good Guys, who create more Good Guys, and once more the Plague devours every Land and Sea in it's turn until the World is consumed.

  Why is that?

  Because prior til now, it was not possible to simply 'talk' a villain into becoming good.  Or, at least, it wasn't a matter of mere game mechanics, in which you stated you talked, the villain made a saving throw, and that was that.
  Prior til now, if you captured a villain, you would have to roleplay it out, and GOOD LUCK trying to talk a villain like Lord Soth or Ivid the Undying into becoming good aligned!!!  
  I mean, as a DM I think a lot of things are possible ... but there are limits.  And talking Lord Soth into becoming a nice guy, or Ivid into being a reasonable fellow, are not within those limits.

  Now, however, you capture them, sit them down, talk, force them to make those saves, use magic to make the saves difficult, and presto! ... you have good guys.

  Furthermore, it is implied the Gods themselves share in the forgiveness.
  In other words, Paladine forgives Soth.  And Heironeous forgives Ivid.  And so on.  Because the mechanic would be utterly useless otherwise ... it only makes sense that if the Good characters forgive, then the Good Gods do also.  (And indeed, it's in the BOED also, that the Good Gods forgive ... chapters 1 and 2 again, somewhere, so the BOED backs me up on this.)

  Now, I doubt Takhisis is going to forgive Soth, and I doubt Hextor is going to forgive Ivid, but that is aside from the point.  Good is redeeming.  Good is forgiving.  Anyone - no matter how bad, depraved, or lost - can be received back into the fold.  The BOED is very clear on this matter.  Very clear.  Forgiveness is available to nearly all ... even things like illithid (Anabstercorian, eat your heart out ... and beware the Exalted girl coming for you ...  )

  So, the merely 'Good' characters spread the Exalted Plague, even if you assume that an Exalted character cannot redeem a villain into an Exalted Redeemed Villain.

  Unfortunately, they can.  Have a look at the Redeemed Illithid.  She has Exalted Feats, I believe (I could be wrong on this, but I'll look again.)
  If she has Exalted Feats, she is Exalted.  Exalted Feats are *only* for Exalted characters ... they cannot be taken by a merely 'Good' character.  The BOED says this also.

  Ghastly, no?

  No horde of kender coming a-knocking could ever be more terrifying, than the Exalted character coming your way.
  If you are evil or neutral, you had better run.  Otherwise, she will likely capture you, sit you down, and remake you in her own image.  And if I am right, then you will start going out and repeating the process!  And every Sea and Land will be consumed in it's turn, until all the world is remade.

   Of course, you can Rule Zero the game mechanics presented in chapter 2 of the BOED, or anything else I just spoke of.  That is not in question.
  What I am pointing out is what could happen, if you take the BOED at face value ... it would seem an Exalted character could quite literally remake the entire world in her own image!

  And even if she cannot remake others into Exalted, she can still remake them into 'Good' characters, and you still have the plague, and the world is still remade.

  Hmmm ... my evil characters are going to hunt down and slaughter every Exalted character they can (for Vile and Evil characters ... and Neutral characters also ... cannot pull this stunt.  No mechanics exist for them to talk anyone into conversion.)
 
  The Powers of Evil will not stand for this atrocity.  A line has been drawn, and it has been crossed.  It is time for the Exalted to be put in their proper place!  

I see, and I appreciate, the quote you just presented, Knightcrawler.
  But it would appear the Powers of Good - those Celestial Guys - are willing to accept oaths from Illithid!!

  If they are willing to take an illithid's word, who are they going to refuse???

  (goes to look in the BOED again, to make sure that illithid has the Exalted Feats I think she has ...)

There it is.  Seeing is believing.  Page 17.
  Thaqualm the Illithid, Redeemed Villain, and Exalted NPC.
  Exalted Feats:  Sacred Vow, Vow of Nonviolence, Vow of Obedience, and maybe some others.

  So ... from this it seems pretty obvious that an Exalted character can turn an evil monster into an Exalted.  Because that is precisely what Thaqualm is:  an Exalted Illithid, redeemed by an Exalted character!

  Every Land and Sea in it's turn ...

Quote from: Edena_of_NeithI see, and I appreciate, the quote you just presented, Knightcrawler.
  But it would appear the Powers of Good - those Celestial Guys - are willing to accept oaths from Illithid!!

  If they are willing to take an illithid's word, who are they going to refuse???

  (goes to look in the BOED again, to make sure that illithid has the Exalted Feats I think she has ...)

But my point is that they aren't going to grant him those powers just because he says he's reformed even if it is true.  The character still then needs to prove himself.  And one thing about being exalted is forgiveness, so in their eyes any, and I mean anyone has a chance of being redeemed.  Also not holding someones race or nationality against them would also be something good would do.

Plus were is this Illithid that you keep mentioning, I cannot find it in the book anywheres.

Edit, oops posted this after you posted the location.

Quote from: Edena_of_NeithThere it is.  Seeing is believing.  Page 17.
  Thaqualm the Illithid, Redeemed Villain, and Exalted NPC.
  Exalted Feats:  Sacred Vow, Vow of Nonviolence, Vow of Obedience, and maybe some others.

  So ... from this it seems pretty obvious that an Exalted character can turn an evil monster into an Exalted.  Because that is precisely what Thaqualm is:  an Exalted Illithid, redeemed by an Exalted character!

  Every Land and Sea in it's turn ...

But I would like to point out that a redeemed villain is a rarity.  How many characters have 14+ days to sit down and try to convert an evil character to good.  And also notice the extraordinary circumstances that lead to the chance to even attempt a conversion.

And any use of spells other than ones to increase your own Charisma or Diplomacy check would be a huge no-no and perhaps even result in the exalted character loosing their exalted status.

I would treat an Exalted material the way that I treat paladins and the lawful good alignment.  It would be NPC's only unless a player could convince me that they could and would play it correctly.  Too often people are only lawful good to play a paladin and then don't play it right.  So exalted characters just like paladins owuld be extremely rare.

Your whole Exalted Plague is a bad example.  As the converted characters would have to prove themselves to earn exalted status.  The more evil they were the longer it would probably take.  I would say a year at the least before they had a chance to become exalted.  And in some ways they would even have to be more good than a normal good from the beginning character would have to be to be considered exalted.

How many players do you know whose characters continually demonstrate charity, mercy, forgiveness, and personal sacrifice?

I don't really have a reply, Knightcrawler.  It just seemed to me that Exalted characters and NPCs would run around trying to convert evils to good (and/or exalted, if possible.)
  It just seemed the logical conclusion.

  For example, if Silvanesti is occupied by evil minotaurs, and Silvanost by the Knights of Takhisis (and this is the case, in Dragonlance) and my Exalted character cannot win against all of them in battle, why not capture and convert the minotaur king?
  Then have the minotaur king capture and convert people.
  Then have those people capture and convert people.
  And so on, until Silvanesti is a land of Exalted (or, at the least, good aligned) minotaurs and Silvanost is a city of Knights of Solamnia?

  That's what my Exalted character would do.  If she could not win with force of arms, she would try diplomacy.  And the BOED gives her that chance.  It truly makes the spoken word mightier than the pen OR the sword.

  I don't have an Exalted character, incidentally.  The requirements for Exalted are so difficult none of my characters come even close to qualifying.  And none of my 'good' characters are about 'talking' villains into conversion ... my characters tend to think more along martial lines.  But that does not mean my characters are the rule ... they most certainly are not the rule.

  Edena, the most powerful character I ever had, could only dream of the kind of power that being able to 'talk' villains such as Lord Soth into converting into Celestial Knights would grant him.
  But Edena would poo-poo the idea of 'talking' Lord Soth into anything.  From Edena's point of view, Lord Soth is a death knight, and one kills death knights.  One does *not* capture them and 'talk' to them.
  From the point of view of an Exalted character, Edena is thus a failure ... and it is his own fault he cannot access this greatest of all powers:  the power of the spoken word.

Quote from: KnightcrawlerHow many players do you know whose characters continually demonstrate charity, mercy, forgiveness, and personal sacrifice?

  I know of only one.  She played a character called Dontella.  Dontella, high priestess of Paladine, was pretty close to being an exalted character.  Really close.  In this case, close enough.

  But nobody else.  Never.  Not in 25 years of gaming.

Again this gets into if the said king would even sit around and stand for the conversion attempts.  And even if you did convert him, I doubt his Diplomacy is very high.  And if he went back acting completely different he would be killed within a matter of days.

Think of a Exalted character as a fundamentalist and that might it be wasier to wrap your head around why your exalted plague idea would probably not work.

Hopefully Bullitt gets in on this thread.