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Author Topic: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted  (Read 13968 times)

Omega

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #75 on: April 28, 2021, 02:54:36 PM »
As many of you know I'm doing a Pulp RPG, well there are not many sites in the interwebs better than The Pulp Avengers https://www.fantasylibrary.com/lounge/pulpavengers.htm And it is correct that the Pulp heroes didn't die, and many times neither did the villains. This is a neccessity when you're telling a story, or writting a serial or series of novels. It would be very awkward if The Shadow were to die.

This is a fallacy thats been parroted by the eletist idiots out there for a long time now. Just more recently with new snide buzzwords.

An RPG pulp hero is no different from a RPG fantasy adventurer. They go out and they live or they die doing what they do.

Novels and comics are different because, usually, you are following someone that lived. As opposed to following the story of someone that died.

Best example real world is say if you made a story about my dad who served in Nam and was at ground zero of day 1. He served 2 terms. Compare that to his buddy who made it one term then was killed by a kid with a grenade. Or my great uncle who served in WWII and all we got back was his stuff since there wasnt enough left of him to send back. Their story is unfortunately short.

Or think of it this way. The PCs are those second or third string characters that tend to guest star in comics. Or ones where some mishap killed the original and someone else takes up the mantle. THESE die A-LOT. Same for pulp heroes, just less common. Only one can really think of are Spy Smasher and the Copperhead from the serials.

Shades of Grey for the Cthulhu LIVE LARP has similar advice. Only more so as the masked avengers are up against things possibly way out of their league.

If a pulp PC falls then have someone else pick up the mask. A sidekick, close relative, friend, even a total stranger. And continue on.

VisionStorm

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #76 on: April 28, 2021, 03:25:32 PM »
0 HP doesn't mean insta-death (still not sure how many negative HP will do you in tho).

The way I'm handling this in my current game is negative HP = DC for periodic survival checks for comatose characters. Specific negative amount doesn't do you in, failing 3 survival checks does. A character succeeding in 3 survival checks in a row becomes stabilized and stops dying, but is still unconscious and must make hourly checks to regain consciousness.

(Class Features are nothing but Feats granted from the word go).

As it should be, IMO. All class abilities should just be Feats, and if you want a specific class or Kit to have them just give it to them.

My aim is the PC will become like the Pulp legends well before retirement, IF the PC manages to get there. The fun will be in the road there not only in being there.

As it should be in most cases for most genres in RGPs as well. Even superheroes should start weak in RPGs and work their way into Superman levels.

Stephen Tannhauser

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #77 on: April 28, 2021, 03:31:24 PM »
Who said I wanted infrequent hero death?

If you're trying to run a Pulp-style game, one of the defining characteristics of Pulp stories (as noted in the original post) is the rarity of permanent character death, despite being full of dangerously high-risk actions with crazily high frequency.  Your players are certainly going to want hero death to be as infrequent as possible, in any event, and if high awesomeness only comes with high risk and high stakes, the awesomeness is going to come less often than genre conventions presuppose.

Some tropes are more vital to the definition of their genre than others. Subvert those, you don't have that genre any more; at best you have something that looks like it. If you want to subvert the Pulp trope of infrequent hero death in the name of creating a sense of real risk for the players, you can, and I'm not saying that would make a bad game or a not-fun game. I'm just saying I don't think it will ultimately look or feel much like a classic Pulp serial in practice, because the incentives for the players aren't going to be the same as the incentives for a classic Pulp protagonist.  I honestly think most players interested in a Pulp game for the sake of the Pulpishness itself are far more interested in playing somebody already like The Shadow than in playing through the half-dozen tries needed for somebody to survive becoming The Shadow.

(I could always be wrong on that last thought. Anyone with experience to the contrary is welcome to chime in. But my own experience doesn't suggest it.)
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mAcular Chaotic

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #78 on: April 28, 2021, 03:56:22 PM »
you cant do osr and pulp together.

they’re contradicting each other

its like saying “how do i make a story game without any story game things in it”
« Last Edit: April 28, 2021, 03:58:05 PM by mAcular Chaotic »
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GeekyBugle

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #79 on: April 28, 2021, 04:05:22 PM »
Who said I wanted infrequent hero death?

If you're trying to run a Pulp-style game, one of the defining characteristics of Pulp stories (as noted in the original post) is the rarity of permanent character death, despite being full of dangerously high-risk actions with crazily high frequency.  Your players are certainly going to want hero death to be as infrequent as possible, in any event, and if high awesomeness only comes with high risk and high stakes, the awesomeness is going to come less often than genre conventions presuppose.

Some tropes are more vital to the definition of their genre than others. Subvert those, you don't have that genre any more; at best you have something that looks like it. If you want to subvert the Pulp trope of infrequent hero death in the name of creating a sense of real risk for the players, you can, and I'm not saying that would make a bad game or a not-fun game. I'm just saying I don't think it will ultimately look or feel much like a classic Pulp serial in practice, because the incentives for the players aren't going to be the same as the incentives for a classic Pulp protagonist.  I honestly think most players interested in a Pulp game for the sake of the Pulpishness itself are far more interested in playing somebody already like The Shadow than in playing through the half-dozen tries needed for somebody to survive becoming The Shadow.

(I could always be wrong on that last thought. Anyone with experience to the contrary is welcome to chime in. But my own experience doesn't suggest it.)

Once again, what are the goals? To write a Pulp work of fiction? Or to have your PC live in a world where the Pulp heroes could arise?

In an RPG there's not a given protagonist, or rather there can be lots of them, and when one dies another rises to the challenge and takes on the torch.

My goal is to make a game where the GM can build such a world and the players can live (thru their PCs) and interact with it.
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GeekyBugle

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #80 on: April 28, 2021, 04:06:15 PM »
you cant do osr and pulp together.

they’re contradicting each other

its like saying “how do i make a story game without any story game things in it”

Because you can't separate writing fiction from a game doesn't mean we all can't.
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mAcular Chaotic

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #81 on: April 28, 2021, 04:08:36 PM »
You want it to be realistic and as threatening as OSR, but want people to play it like a heroic game. Why would they do that when it just gets them killed? You can’t do that. You need to change the rules to force the players to act the way they would in the stories but you reject those as artificial. So you’re never going to have an answer.
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GeekyBugle

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #82 on: April 28, 2021, 04:08:50 PM »
As many of you know I'm doing a Pulp RPG, well there are not many sites in the interwebs better than The Pulp Avengers https://www.fantasylibrary.com/lounge/pulpavengers.htm And it is correct that the Pulp heroes didn't die, and many times neither did the villains. This is a neccessity when you're telling a story, or writting a serial or series of novels. It would be very awkward if The Shadow were to die.

This is a fallacy thats been parroted by the eletist idiots out there for a long time now. Just more recently with new snide buzzwords.

An RPG pulp hero is no different from a RPG fantasy adventurer. They go out and they live or they die doing what they do.

Novels and comics are different because, usually, you are following someone that lived. As opposed to following the story of someone that died.

Best example real world is say if you made a story about my dad who served in Nam and was at ground zero of day 1. He served 2 terms. Compare that to his buddy who made it one term then was killed by a kid with a grenade. Or my great uncle who served in WWII and all we got back was his stuff since there wasnt enough left of him to send back. Their story is unfortunately short.

Or think of it this way. The PCs are those second or third string characters that tend to guest star in comics. Or ones where some mishap killed the original and someone else takes up the mantle. THESE die A-LOT. Same for pulp heroes, just less common. Only one can really think of are Spy Smasher and the Copperhead from the serials.

Shades of Grey for the Cthulhu LIVE LARP has similar advice. Only more so as the masked avengers are up against things possibly way out of their league.

If a pulp PC falls then have someone else pick up the mask. A sidekick, close relative, friend, even a total stranger. And continue on.

You don't have to convince me, I'm in favor of allowing the PCs die. Maybe a little less easy than usual but a lot more than any Pulp protagonist.
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

GeekyBugle

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #83 on: April 28, 2021, 04:10:33 PM »
You want it to be realistic and as threatening as OSR, but want people to play it like a heroic game. Why would they do that when it just gets them killed? You can’t do that. You need to change the rules to force the players to act the way they would in the stories but you reject those as artificial. So you’re never going to have an answer.

"REALISTIC"? Where?

"as threatening as OSR"? Where?

You either aren't reading what I write or have some sort of reading comprehension problem.
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

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GeekyBugle

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #84 on: April 28, 2021, 04:14:25 PM »
0 HP doesn't mean insta-death (still not sure how many negative HP will do you in tho).

The way I'm handling this in my current game is negative HP = DC for periodic survival checks for comatose characters. Specific negative amount doesn't do you in, failing 3 survival checks does. A character succeeding in 3 survival checks in a row becomes stabilized and stops dying, but is still unconscious and must make hourly checks to regain consciousness.

(Class Features are nothing but Feats granted from the word go).

As it should be, IMO. All class abilities should just be Feats, and if you want a specific class or Kit to have them just give it to them.

My aim is the PC will become like the Pulp legends well before retirement, IF the PC manages to get there. The fun will be in the road there not only in being there.

As it should be in most cases for most genres in RGPs as well. Even superheroes should start weak in RPGs and work their way into Superman levels.

That doesn't sound so bad, will need to try it out.

Thanks, was I not using White Box as the chasis I might go all hog and keep the "classes" at a minimum and give them Feats or Kits.

IKR? Why was Spider-Man always more popular than Superman? Relative weakness and "losing" from time to time.
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

mAcular Chaotic

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #85 on: April 28, 2021, 04:30:21 PM »
You want it to be realistic and as threatening as OSR, but want people to play it like a heroic game. Why would they do that when it just gets them killed? You can’t do that. You need to change the rules to force the players to act the way they would in the stories but you reject those as artificial. So you’re never going to have an answer.

"REALISTIC"? Where?

"as threatening as OSR"? Where?

You either aren't reading what I write or have some sort of reading comprehension problem.
OSR is an ambiguous term so using it confuses the issue, at least for me. You say OSR and I think Lamentations of the Flame Princess. The kind of game you crawl forward every five feet poking the ground with a ten foot pole, and the one time you slip up you get killed instantly. So someone playing that like an action hero is just going to die or be severely discouraged from behaving in a "genre proper" way.

Which is why making it so the rules are more pulpy is good. It's not "going easy on them," it's that playing it like a Vietnam war scenario isn't the point of the game. You could increase hit points, make it so getting "killed" just drops you unconscious and causes you to fail the mission, make it so they get more bonuses doing spectacular and risky things than playing it safe, etc.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2021, 04:38:53 PM by mAcular Chaotic »
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Ratman_tf

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #86 on: April 28, 2021, 04:41:41 PM »
You want it to be realistic and as threatening as OSR, but want people to play it like a heroic game. Why would they do that when it just gets them killed? You can’t do that. You need to change the rules to force the players to act the way they would in the stories but you reject those as artificial. So you’re never going to have an answer.

"REALISTIC"? Where?

"as threatening as OSR"? Where?

You either aren't reading what I write or have some sort of reading comprehension problem.
OSR is an ambiguous term so using it confuses the issue, at least for me. You say OSR and I think Lamentations of the Flame Princess. The kind of game you crawl forward every five feet poking the ground with a ten foot pole, and the one time you slip up you get killed instantly. So someone playing that like an action hero is just going to die or be severely discouraged from behaving in a "genre proper" way.

Thinking about it, I'm amused that "old school" D&D had art in the books of brave adventurers fighting monsters and getting treasure. Maybe a more accurate piece for the genre would have been a party of grubby adventurers herding a bunch of barnyard animals into the entrance of a tomb. :D
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GeekyBugle

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #87 on: April 28, 2021, 04:43:01 PM »
You want it to be realistic and as threatening as OSR, but want people to play it like a heroic game. Why would they do that when it just gets them killed? You can’t do that. You need to change the rules to force the players to act the way they would in the stories but you reject those as artificial. So you’re never going to have an answer.

"REALISTIC"? Where?

"as threatening as OSR"? Where?

You either aren't reading what I write or have some sort of reading comprehension problem.
OSR is an ambiguous term so using it confuses the issue, at least for me. You say OSR and I think Lamentations of the Flame Princess. The kind of game you crawl forward every five feet poking the ground with a ten foot pole, and the one time you slip up you get killed instantly. So someone playing that like an action hero is just going to die or be severely discouraged from behaving in a "genre proper" way.

You might want to expand your knowledge of the OSR. It already encompasses from classic high fantasy to spandex superheroes, western, sci-fi, and even indiana jones.

Letality can be toned up or down, from DCC/LotFP to whatever level you feel comfortable with. But it needs to be a definite possibility, MY plan is to tone it down a little bit, to make it a little bit easier to survive beyond 1st level.

But you, as the GM can always tone it up or down. Say you want a straight Pulp protagonists game. What's stopping you from ruling that 4d6 drop lowest distribute as you like is the way to go? Or to straight up say no one can have anything less than 12 in any stat? make the math and make it point buy? Make it so the worst stat you have is say 14?

Once I'm done developing and it's up for sale whatever you do in your table is out of my hands no?
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

GeekyBugle

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #88 on: April 28, 2021, 04:45:16 PM »
You want it to be realistic and as threatening as OSR, but want people to play it like a heroic game. Why would they do that when it just gets them killed? You can’t do that. You need to change the rules to force the players to act the way they would in the stories but you reject those as artificial. So you’re never going to have an answer.

"REALISTIC"? Where?

"as threatening as OSR"? Where?

You either aren't reading what I write or have some sort of reading comprehension problem.
OSR is an ambiguous term so using it confuses the issue, at least for me. You say OSR and I think Lamentations of the Flame Princess. The kind of game you crawl forward every five feet poking the ground with a ten foot pole, and the one time you slip up you get killed instantly. So someone playing that like an action hero is just going to die or be severely discouraged from behaving in a "genre proper" way.

Thinking about it, I'm amused that "old school" D&D had art in the books of brave adventurers fighting monsters and getting treasure. Maybe a more accurate piece for the genre would have been a party of grubby adventurers herding a bunch of barnyard animals into the entrance of a tomb. :D

and hoping those animals aren't turned into man eating monsters by whoever is inside it.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

mAcular Chaotic

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #89 on: April 28, 2021, 04:48:18 PM »
There's OSR superhero games? This is the first I've heard and I follow a lot of OSR games... they're all Lamentations style that I've seen. I wouldn't call DCC OSR, so much as OSR adjacent. It's D&D 3.5 with OSR inspiration. What's the superhero OSR game?

Also, this raises a question: do you even -want- them to follow the genre conventions? I'm starting to think you want this to be more like an adventure the normal OSR group goes on rather than an entire genre shift. The location and dressings change but the rest is mostly the same.

If they treat it like a normal D&D game but just in pulp clothes would that bother you? (ie, treat it cautiously, don't behave gloriously, etc.)
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.