Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 10:11:33 AM
Okay, what's the best match of rules to Pulp genre in your experience?

D6 System, notably WEG 1e D6 Star Wars. If I'm doing pulp I use Mini Six - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/144558/Mini-Six-Bare-Bones-Edition

Savage Worlds seems like it ought to be good but I've only played 'War of the Dead', where we always ran away from the zombies - mostly in order to avoid the combat mechanics. The system seemed great for skills, but we never liked the combat. Zombies were too hard to kill; major NPCs (Jokers) were impossible to kill, and we didn't want to kill living mooks.

BRP/Call of Cthulu with the 'pulp options' like x2 hit points is passable. But I'd much rather use D6 System.

D&D's zero-to-hero model makes it a pretty poor base for pulp, and if I'm running/playing pulp games I'm probably wanting to get away from ablative hit points. For pulp I typically want an "every bullet might kill you - but probably won't" feel, for which a wound track system & exploding die (D6 Wild Die, SW Acing) likely works best.

Quote from: S'mon on April 28, 2021, 12:51:12 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 10:10:06 AM
Right, agreed, thing is, how do you codify this into rules?

Easiest method is probably Hero Points. I was running a lot of Mini Six (D6 System variant) in 2020 in the pulpy Primeval Thule setting. I gave out one HP per session plus occasional bonuses. HPs give +6 to any roll (attack, damage, etc), up to three per roll (+18). You can also spend one once per session to survive a killing blow, turning it into a KO. You can still die from repeated killing blows, continuous damage, etc, but it kept lethality down. We had one PC nearly die, and another did die after she chased a Night Thing* of Tizun Thane** into the forest alone, spent all her HPs trying to damage it, then had nothing left when it impaled her with its big pincer arm-claw thingies. But that was a pretty extreme case.

*unstoppable killing machine that exists only to kill - IMC they serve Nyarlathotep.
*https://princeofnothingblogs.wordpress.com/2020/12/26/review-white-dwarf-18-the-halls-of-tizun-thane-bone-deep-ss/

Hero Points, Luck bennies, it's meta currency, I fecking hate meta currency.

Quote from: S'mon on April 28, 2021, 12:58:42 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 10:11:33 AM
Okay, what's the best match of rules to Pulp genre in your experience?

D6 System, notably WEG 1e D6 Star Wars. If I'm doing pulp I use Mini Six - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/144558/Mini-Six-Bare-Bones-Edition

Savage Worlds seems like it ought to be good but I've only played 'War of the Dead', where we always ran away from the zombies - mostly in order to avoid the combat mechanics. The system seemed great for skills, but we never liked the combat. Zombies were too hard to kill; major NPCs (Jokers) were impossible to kill, and we didn't want to kill living mooks.

BRP/Call of Cthulu with the 'pulp options' like x2 hit points is passable. But I'd much rather use D6 System.

D&D's zero-to-hero model makes it a pretty poor base for pulp, and if I'm running/playing pulp games I'm probably wanting to get away from ablative hit points. For pulp I typically want an "every bullet might kill you - but probably won't" feel, for which a wound track system & exploding die (D6 Wild Die, SW Acing) likely works best.

Yeah, I'm not familiar enough with d6 to write a game with it.

Same thing with SW

I don't really like d100 systems and IIRC BRP is d100.

Quote from: RandyB on April 28, 2021, 11:54:55 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 11:52:05 AM
What about if you're not playing The Shadow (or someone like him) but someone who MIGHT become someone like him?

You MIGHT become a legend, but you're not one just yet.

Same as in swords and sorcery. You become a legend, or die trying.

Nothing wrong with that, if that's what you're looking for.

For example, I've been playing in a Call of Cthulhu campaign where we've had four PC deaths over the past year - but we still have two PCs who have survived from the beginning. One is an archeologist who has tended to hang back from danger, one is a deadly soldier who didn't take unnecessary risks and killed before being killed. I could see especially the soldier Pranit as a dark pulp hero (or perhaps anti-hero).

Still, to me, there's a huge difference in feel between horror games like this and my pulp games. In Call of Cthulhu, we risk our lives to get the mission done saving the world - but we spend a lot of time to ensure we aren't killed. We have often hired thugs to fight with us, laid in tactical ambush, or just retreat to heal up for a few weeks. Before any dangerous foray, we spend a while talking about our plans to maximize our survival. In pulp games, the PCs tend to rush into danger more quickly, rather than having extended planning time. Once on the spot, they'll use their best tactics to defeat the enemy, but there is definitely less planning and less running away. The PCs are still defeated sometimes, or at least outmaneuvered. But the action is much faster paced, and they go on to try again quickly.

I like both at different times.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 10:21:06 AM
Right, but how the fuck do I codify THAT into the rules? It's a honest question, I'm drawing a blank. Without meta currency.

Well, here's a thought: Every significant encounter, fight scene or action set piece (call these "Conflicts" for short) can be classified as Minor, Major, or a Showdown.

The hallmark of Minor Conflicts is that they're meant to move the plot along, not really be serious dangers; Major Conflicts pose serious threats; and Showdowns are climactic confrontations that will always be the end of the line for somebody -- nobody dies in a Minor Conflict, either PCs or NPCs can die in a Major Conflict, and somebody has to die in a Showdown. Correspondingly, the level of danger matches a level of increased awesomeness: in Major Conflicts players get extra action dice or the like, and in Showdowns they get many extra action dice, or maybe there are limits to the scope or quantity of feats/powers you can bust out in Minor conflicts (I assume you don't want to do too much pre-game bookkeeping).

Now here's the kicker: With the exception of the big fight at the end of the adventure, which is always a Showdown, the players involved in that Conflict get to choose the scope of any given Conflict. So they essentially pick their own ratio of risk to accomplishment and awesomeness. Make everything a Minor Conflict, you'll stay safe but you'll also be the least awesome of the group. (If the players can't agree within a minute, Conflicts default to Major.)  Make everything a Showdown, you will blaze bright but go out hard when you finally lose, because losing a Showdown ensures you're dead.

This still, of course, has the basic problem that a player dedicated to keeping his PC alive above all else is not going to make the choices most pulp heroes normally would, but no rule mechanic is going to fix that problem.

Quote from: jhkim on April 28, 2021, 01:11:11 PM

Quote from: RandyB on April 28, 2021, 11:54:55 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 11:52:05 AM
What about if you're not playing The Shadow (or someone like him) but someone who MIGHT become someone like him?

You MIGHT become a legend, but you're not one just yet.

Same as in swords and sorcery. You become a legend, or die trying.

Nothing wrong with that, if that's what you're looking for.

For example, I've been playing in a Call of Cthulhu campaign where we've had four PC deaths over the past year - but we still have two PCs who have survived from the beginning. One is an archeologist who has tended to hang back from danger, one is a deadly soldier who didn't take unnecessary risks and killed before being killed. I could see especially the soldier Pranit as a dark pulp hero (or perhaps anti-hero).

Still, to me, there's a huge difference in feel between horror games like this and my pulp games. In Call of Cthulhu, we risk our lives to get the mission done saving the world - but we spend a lot of time to ensure we aren't killed. We have often hired thugs to fight with us, laid in tactical ambush, or just retreat to heal up for a few weeks. Before any dangerous foray, we spend a while talking about our plans to maximize our survival. In pulp games, the PCs tend to rush into danger more quickly, rather than having extended planning time. Once on the spot, they'll use their best tactics to defeat the enemy, but there is definitely less planning and less running away. The PCs are still defeated sometimes, or at least outmaneuvered. But the action is much faster paced, and they go on to try again quickly.

I like both at different times.

So to you Pulp is being the legendary hero, not becoming the legendary hero. But even the legends weren't so at some point no?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 01:09:17 PMHero Points, Luck bennies, it's meta currency, I fecking hate meta currency.

Following up from this, another simpler way to implement the Minor/Major/Showdown ranking above, without hero points or action dice, might be:
- In Minor conflicts, you can't die, but your hit point total before hitting 0 and losing (in a non-lethal way) is treated as half normal, and you can't permanently beat major opponents this way either, only nameless mooks.
- In a Major conflict, hit point total is normal but death can be final.
- In a Showdown, hit point total is double normal but somebody has to die, either you or your opponent.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on April 28, 2021, 01:14:13 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 10:21:06 AM
Right, but how the fuck do I codify THAT into the rules? It's a honest question, I'm drawing a blank. Without meta currency.

Well, here's a thought: Every significant encounter, fight scene or action set piece (call these "Conflicts" for short) can be classified as Minor, Major, or a Showdown.

The hallmark of Minor Conflicts is that they're meant to move the plot along, not really be serious dangers; Major Conflicts pose serious threats; and Showdowns are climactic confrontations that will always be the end of the line for somebody -- nobody dies in a Minor Conflict, either PCs or NPCs can die in a Major Conflict, and somebody has to die in a Showdown. Correspondingly, the level of danger matches a level of increased awesomeness: in Major Conflicts players get extra action dice or the like, and in Showdowns they get many extra action dice, or maybe there are limits to the scope or quantity of feats/powers you can bust out in Minor conflicts (I assume you don't want to do too much pre-game bookkeeping).

Now here's the kicker: With the exception of the big fight at the end of the adventure, which is always a Showdown, the players involved in that Conflict get to choose the scope of any given Conflict. So they essentially pick their own ratio of risk to accomplishment and awesomeness. Make everything a Minor Conflict, you'll stay safe but you'll also be the least awesome of the group. (If the players can't agree within a minute, Conflicts default to Major.)  Make everything a Showdown, you will blaze bright but go out hard when you finally lose, because losing a Showdown ensures you're dead.

This still, of course, has the basic problem that a player dedicated to keeping his PC alive above all else is not going to make the choices most pulp heroes normally would, but no rule mechanic is going to fix that problem.

Your execution is an ammount of plot armor I wouldn't enjoy playing in. Therefore I'm not making a game like that.

Punish the PC's for not being heroic, have a newspaper talking shit about them, take XP away from them (or rather grant it for BEING heroic), make the NPCs more likely to fight to the death because the PCs are sorta, kinda cowards.

Reward awesomeness.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on April 28, 2021, 01:26:33 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 01:09:17 PMHero Points, Luck bennies, it's meta currency, I fecking hate meta currency.

Following up from this, another simpler way to implement the Minor/Major/Showdown ranking above, without hero points or action dice, might be:
- In Minor conflicts, you can't die, but your hit point total before hitting 0 and losing (in a non-lethal way) is treated as half normal, and you can't permanently beat major opponents this way either, only nameless mooks.
- In a Major conflict, hit point total is normal but death can be final.
- In a Showdown, hit point total is double normal but somebody has to die, either you or your opponent.

I'm not sure I follow, expand with an example?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 01:09:17 PM

Quote from: S'mon on April 28, 2021, 12:51:12 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 10:10:06 AM
Right, agreed, thing is, how do you codify this into rules?

Easiest method is probably Hero Points. I was running a lot of Mini Six (D6 System variant) in 2020 in the pulpy Primeval Thule setting. I gave out one HP per session plus occasional bonuses. HPs give +6 to any roll (attack, damage, etc), up to three per roll (+18). You can also spend one once per session to survive a killing blow, turning it into a KO. You can still die from repeated killing blows, continuous damage, etc, but it kept lethality down. We had one PC nearly die, and another did die after she chased a Night Thing* of Tizun Thane** into the forest alone, spent all her HPs trying to damage it, then had nothing left when it impaled her with its big pincer arm-claw thingies. But that was a pretty extreme case.

*unstoppable killing machine that exists only to kill - IMC they serve Nyarlathotep.
*https://princeofnothingblogs.wordpress.com/2020/12/26/review-white-dwarf-18-the-halls-of-tizun-thane-bone-deep-ss/

Hero Points, Luck bennies, it's meta currency, I fecking hate meta currency.

Dude, there's a lot of stuff that can be done with meta currency. You're throwing away a lot of potential if you reject it out of hand. Even spell points (or magic points, power points, etc.) are technically a type of meta currency. In a game I'm currently working on everyone gets power points as a universal pool of points to use any type of power (whether based on magic, training or natural abilities). Since not everyone necessarily has powers in the game (though, most eventually should) I decided to also allow power points to be spent as "Effort" to boost rolls or damage, reduce damage taken, auto-stabilize when dying and stuff like that, to allow power points to be universally useful, even if you have no powers.

An "Effort" type mechanic is perfectly plausible IMO, cuz people don't always operate at 100% their potential in real life and things aren't always 100% random either. Sometimes you have to push your limits to get a job done to meet a deadline or get an extra rush of adrenaline when performing physical tasks. People totally can focus on stuff to get boost to their chance to do something.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 01:29:53 PMI'm not sure I follow, expand with an example?

Well, basically, if a 36 HP PC winds up facing off against a bunch of thugs and doesn't like his odds, but can't run, he can call it a Minor Conflict; he's treated as having only 18 HPs to fight with, but if he hits 0 he's guaranteed to be only knocked out.  If he calls it a Showdown, he gets 72 HPs for that fight, but if he's defeated, he's dead.

I would probably add in a very simple pulpy rule that "hit points" in this game reflect purely fighting spirit and stamina rather than any actual damage, and that they refresh to full very quickly between fights, like health bars for video game characters. Actual, serious, lingering, plot-affecting injury would have to be addressed with a different gauge or rule set, like a long-term dice penalty. (Perhaps losing a Minor Conflict guarantees taking one of these, so playing it safe for too long is ultimately penalized with decreased in-game effectiveness.)

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on April 28, 2021, 01:45:15 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 01:29:53 PMI'm not sure I follow, expand with an example?

Well, basically, if a 36 HP PC winds up facing off against a bunch of thugs and doesn't like his odds, but can't run, he can call it a Minor Conflict; he's treated as having only 18 HPs to fight with, but if he hits 0 he's guaranteed to be only knocked out.  If he calls it a Showdown, he gets 72 HPs for that fight, but if he's defeated, he's dead.

I would probably add in a very simple pulpy rule that "hit points" in this game reflect purely fighting spirit and stamina rather than any actual damage, and that they refresh to full very quickly between fights, like health bars for video game characters. Actual, serious, lingering, plot-affecting injury would have to be addressed with a different gauge or rule set, like a long-term dice penalty. (Perhaps losing a Minor Conflict guarantees taking one of these, so playing it safe for too long is ultimately penalized with decreased in-game effectiveness.)

That's not OSR tho

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 28, 2021, 01:36:40 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 01:09:17 PM

Quote from: S'mon on April 28, 2021, 12:51:12 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 10:10:06 AM
Right, agreed, thing is, how do you codify this into rules?

Easiest method is probably Hero Points. I was running a lot of Mini Six (D6 System variant) in 2020 in the pulpy Primeval Thule setting. I gave out one HP per session plus occasional bonuses. HPs give +6 to any roll (attack, damage, etc), up to three per roll (+18). You can also spend one once per session to survive a killing blow, turning it into a KO. You can still die from repeated killing blows, continuous damage, etc, but it kept lethality down. We had one PC nearly die, and another did die after she chased a Night Thing* of Tizun Thane** into the forest alone, spent all her HPs trying to damage it, then had nothing left when it impaled her with its big pincer arm-claw thingies. But that was a pretty extreme case.

*unstoppable killing machine that exists only to kill - IMC they serve Nyarlathotep.
*https://princeofnothingblogs.wordpress.com/2020/12/26/review-white-dwarf-18-the-halls-of-tizun-thane-bone-deep-ss/

Hero Points, Luck bennies, it's meta currency, I fecking hate meta currency.

Dude, there's a lot of stuff that can be done with meta currency. You're throwing away a lot of potential if you reject it out of hand. Even spell points (or magic points, power points, etc.) are technically a type of meta currency. In a game I'm currently working on everyone gets power points as a universal pool of points to use any type of power (whether based on magic, training or natural abilities). Since not everyone necessarily has powers in the game (though, most eventually should) I decided to also allow power points to be spent as "Effort" to boost rolls or damage, reduce damage taken, auto-stabilize when dying and stuff like that, to allow power points to be universally useful, even if you have no powers.

An "Effort" type mechanic is perfectly plausible IMO, cuz people don't always operate at 100% their potential in real life and things aren't always 100% random either. Sometimes you have to push your limits to get a job done to meet a deadline or get an extra rush of adrenaline when performing physical tasks. People totally can focus on stuff to get boost to their chance to do something.

And spell slots could be called metacurrency too. But you don't get to use them to escape certain death. And I prefer Spell points over vancian magic.

I think some of the feats I'm including (Yes I know those aren't OSR either might change the name to features  ) could work as well as the metacurrency without being metacurrency and keeping the plot armor to an (to me) acceptable level.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 01:58:34 PMThat's not OSR tho

No, but I'm skeptical a pure-OSR system is going to achieve the goals it sounds like you're reaching for.

The basic problem, it seems to me, is that there is an essential self-contradiction in the target goals here:

1) You want to use a basic OSR system without metacurrency.
2) You want to run a Pulp style setting with PCs who act the way Pulp heroes would act.
3) However, PCs in an OSR system who act the way Pulp heroes act tend to die much more quickly than Pulp heroes normally do, especially at low levels, immediately leading to players adopting extremely non-Pulp strategies.
4) Therefore, the rules have to be adjusted in some way to make "Pulpish" actions the optimal approach to in-game success.
5) The immediate and most obvious effect of any such adjustment will be to give PCs an effective form of "plot armor".
6) But this inevitably reduces the sense of risk and tension felt by players because they know of this plot armor, even if the PCs "don't".

Basically, the bind you seem to be in is: High Action; Real Risk; Infrequent Hero Death -- pick two.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on April 28, 2021, 02:33:31 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 01:58:34 PMThat's not OSR tho

No, but I'm skeptical a pure-OSR system is going to achieve the goals it sounds like you're reaching for.

The basic problem, it seems to me, is that there is an essential self-contradiction in the target goals here:

1) You want to use a basic OSR system without metacurrency.
2) You want to run a Pulp style setting with PCs who act the way Pulp heroes would act.
3) However, PCs in an OSR system who act the way Pulp heroes act tend to die much more quickly than Pulp heroes normally do, especially at low levels, immediately leading to players adopting extremely non-Pulp strategies.
4) Therefore, the rules have to be adjusted in some way to make "Pulpish" actions the optimal approach to in-game success.
5) The immediate and most obvious effect of any such adjustment will be to give PCs an effective form of "plot armor".
6) But this inevitably reduces the sense of risk and tension felt by players because they know of this plot armor, even if the PCs "don't".

Basically, the bind you seem to be in is: High Action; Real Risk; Infrequent Hero Death -- pick two.

Who said I wanted infrecuent hero death? Who said level 1 characters are Heroes? They aren't, not yet, they might become heroes if they have what it takes to do so.

Which among other things involves INTELLIGENT risk taking, heroic actions and playing to your strenghts (I mean as a character).

As for deviating from a "pure" OSR system... Well yes, but to what extent? I want it still to be clearly recognizable as something close to it's roots.

I'm doing away with vancian magic, but that has been done since forever. I'm also making other changes, for instance you start with your full HD. 0 HP doesn't mean insta-death (still not sure how many negative HP will do you in tho).

I'm also including a few feats and skills, because I like those things up to an extent. (Class Features are nothing but Feats granted from the word go).

My aim is the PC will become like the Pulp legends well before retirement, IF the PC manages to get there. The fun will be in the road there not only in being there.