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Author Topic: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted  (Read 13959 times)

GeekyBugle

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #90 on: April 28, 2021, 04:57:37 PM »
There's OSR superhero games? This is the first I've heard and I follow a lot of OSR games... they're all Lamentations style that I've seen. I wouldn't call DCC OSR, so much as OSR adjacent. It's D&D 3.5 with OSR inspiration. What's the superhero OSR game?

Also, this raises a question: do you even -want- them to follow the genre conventions? I'm starting to think you want this to be more like an adventure the normal OSR group goes on rather than an entire genre shift. The location and dressings change but the rest is mostly the same.

If they treat it like a normal D&D game but just in pulp clothes would that bother you? (ie, treat it cautiously, don't behave gloriously, etc.)

It's called Guardians, author drops by here on ocasion.

I want the genre conventions up to a point, I don't plan on making it so the PCs start off as the main protagonist of a pulp, but they can get there.

If your cup of tea is the Main Protagonist you need to either houserule it or wait till my other game/supplement (haven't decided yet) about Pulp Vigilantes. There you start as a capable vigilante of one sort or the other.

But the classes are proving more difficult to land in a way I like, so it's on the backburner.

Your problem seems to be that you think PCs should start off as the Protagonists, while I think they should start off as second string characters and become the protagonists by doing awesome heroic shit.

Brave isn't someone who's fearless, but someone who does brave shit in the face of danger and despite his/her fear.

If you can't die, are you being heroic? If you can't choose evil are you being good?
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Stephen Tannhauser

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #91 on: April 28, 2021, 04:58:46 PM »
Once again, what are the goals? To write a Pulp work of fiction? Or to have your PC live in a world where the Pulp heroes could arise?

My goal is to make a game where the GM can build such a world and the players can live (thru their PCs) and interact with it.

Fair enough, and I appreciate the way you phrased the goal here, because I think it actually gives away the basic issue: What makes a "Pulp" setting?  Is it the trappings of dieselpunk or occult Nazis or zeppelins or jungle chases or exotic distant lands or mystic powers to see into the hearts of criminals?  Or is it the style of the stories told within it, whatever the trappings -- high action and adventure involving super-competent protagonists against even more astonishing opponents?  I've always operated much more on the latter definition than the former, which is probably why I missed your point before.

I understand the goal of separating setting from playstyle so that the players can have real risk back in the equation; normally I am all for the idea that for the challenge to feel real, the stakes have to feel real too. But as before, I think the inevitable result of this is that, in practice, it will cause the setting to lose much of the feeling for which (I assume) it was chosen in the first place, because the style of the in-game action won't be living up to it. If nothing else, it seems to me that players who behave like sensible PCs vs. villains who behave like Pulp villains would create a certain atmospheric dissonance in actual play.  (Though again, I could be wrong on that; counter-evidence is welcomed.)
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mAcular Chaotic

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #92 on: April 28, 2021, 05:02:39 PM »
Yeah that's what I was getting at -- stylistically, a "pulp" game DOES have you as the heroes already, you're the badass who kicks ass and chews gum. It's not about scrounging your way up from some copper pieces to maybe become something.

You're Indiana Jones.

The rules can present challenge and failure, but with that style of game it's not really about "am I going to get killed" so much anymore.
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GeekyBugle

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #93 on: April 28, 2021, 05:09:27 PM »
Once again, what are the goals? To write a Pulp work of fiction? Or to have your PC live in a world where the Pulp heroes could arise?

My goal is to make a game where the GM can build such a world and the players can live (thru their PCs) and interact with it.

Fair enough, and I appreciate the way you phrased the goal here, because I think it actually gives away the basic issue: What makes a "Pulp" setting?  Is it the trappings of dieselpunk or occult Nazis or zeppelins or jungle chases or exotic distant lands or mystic powers to see into the hearts of criminals?  Or is it the style of the stories told within it, whatever the trappings -- high action and adventure involving super-competent protagonists against even more astonishing opponents?  I've always operated much more on the latter definition than the former, which is probably why I missed your point before.

I understand the goal of separating setting from playstyle so that the players can have real risk back in the equation; normally I am all for the idea that for the challenge to feel real, the stakes have to feel real too. But as before, I think the inevitable result of this is that, in practice, it will cause the setting to lose much of the feeling for which (I assume) it was chosen in the first place, because the style of the in-game action won't be living up to it. If nothing else, it seems to me that players who behave like sensible PCs vs. villains who behave like Pulp villains would create a certain atmospheric dissonance in actual play.  (Though again, I could be wrong on that; counter-evidence is welcomed.)

Oh, but I do agree that Pulp isn't a time period, it's a style of adventure fiction (not gonna include the sleaze pulps here thank you very much), you could totally write a Pulp set on present day or the future, and it has been done.

Something else the Pulps have is the black & white morality, no shades of gray, that I think is way more important than the time period or the gadgets.

But, again, you want to play as The Protagonist, being granted that status by feat of the rules or the GM. I think it can be fun to instead achieve that status by deeds.

Think of it like this: How many Vigilantes lived in the world of The Shadow before him? WE don't know, because they died before becoming The Protagonist. Were they less brave? Less worthy?

Or think of it like this: Not everybody can be Doc Savage, but anyone can try and become Doc Savage. So you start where Doc Savage is already a legend.

I start when he just met his buddies and fate sent them in their first adventure. Will they all survive? Will any of them become The Protagonist? Is this a team book?

Why is it that my starting point is less Pulp than yours? Everybody had to be a nobody before they became famous no?
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GeekyBugle

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #94 on: April 28, 2021, 05:15:02 PM »
Yeah that's what I was getting at -- stylistically, a "pulp" game DOES have you as the heroes already, you're the badass who kicks ass and chews gum. It's not about scrounging your way up from some copper pieces to maybe become something.

You're Indiana Jones.

The rules can present challenge and failure, but with that style of game it's not really about "am I going to get killed" so much anymore.

So because that's how it has been done it's how it should be done?

Who said anything about copper pieces? You, not me, there are other ways to handle the money thing and to handle the treasure thing too.

You seem to think that a game where you can be killed can't have other types of threats/incentives. You're wrong.

You know of Indiana Jones because he survived, do you think he always was as competent as when you first saw him?

Star Wars was Pulp, and yet, here you have a farmer that fails and becomes The Hero, and in the process a more competent character dies.

You want to play Heroes, I want to play the Year Zero and not skipp it.
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

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Reckall

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #95 on: April 28, 2021, 05:20:30 PM »
It always the best when such an interesting topic like Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted starts only to have the word "pulp" in 97.3% of the posts. Next time it will be Some Archetypes SHOULD be buried and it will have the word "Byzantium" in 98.1% of the posts.  ::)
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jhkim

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #96 on: April 28, 2021, 05:32:28 PM »
Think of it like this: How many Vigilantes lived in the world of The Shadow before him? WE don't know, because they died before becoming The Protagonist. Were they less brave? Less worthy?

Or think of it like this: Not everybody can be Doc Savage, but anyone can try and become Doc Savage. So you start where Doc Savage is already a legend.

I start when he just met his buddies and fate sent them in their first adventure. Will they all survive? Will any of them become The Protagonist? Is this a team book?

Why is it that my starting point is less Pulp than yours? Everybody had to be a nobody before they became famous no?

Your starting point is no less valid a preference for gaming. Do whatever you like, by all means. However, it might be different than people's expectations for a pulp game. In the published works, Doc Savage was already legendary within the fiction as of the first published story - "The Man of Bronze" in 1933. That sort of beginning would be people's default expectations for pulp.

I think it is a change of genre to have adventures set in the same world, but at a different time or place than the standard for the genre. For example, I might have a game set in the Star Trek universe where the PCs aren't a Federation starship crew - but instead are enterprising criminals pulling heists on a single planet. Or I might have a game set in a world of high fantasy, but the PCs are pre-teen kids getting into trouble in their village. These are twists on the genre that might be great fun, but it's different than how the genre generally goes.

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #97 on: April 28, 2021, 05:36:03 PM »
It always the best when such an interesting topic like Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted starts only to have the word "pulp" in 97.3% of the posts. Next time it will be Some Archetypes SHOULD be buried and it will have the word "Byzantium" in 98.1% of the posts.  ::)

it's good clickbait my man. does seem like this was more about workshoppin' pulp OSR rules though. guess he's shy about his needs.
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mAcular Chaotic

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #98 on: April 28, 2021, 05:39:21 PM »
Yeah that's what I was getting at -- stylistically, a "pulp" game DOES have you as the heroes already, you're the badass who kicks ass and chews gum. It's not about scrounging your way up from some copper pieces to maybe become something.

You're Indiana Jones.

The rules can present challenge and failure, but with that style of game it's not really about "am I going to get killed" so much anymore.

So because that's how it has been done it's how it should be done?

Who said anything about copper pieces? You, not me, there are other ways to handle the money thing and to handle the treasure thing too.

You seem to think that a game where you can be killed can't have other types of threats/incentives. You're wrong.

You know of Indiana Jones because he survived, do you think he always was as competent as when you first saw him?

Star Wars was Pulp, and yet, here you have a farmer that fails and becomes The Hero, and in the process a more competent character dies.

You want to play Heroes, I want to play the Year Zero and not skipp it.
I think it's fine to start at "zero." But I don't know if I'd call that "pulp". Part of pulp is that the hero is already competent.

If he was just a normal dude then doing pulp-y things like jumping from one moving train to another in the middle of a fight would just be suicide. So you won't really be doing any pulp stuff.
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GeekyBugle

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #99 on: April 28, 2021, 05:43:15 PM »
Think of it like this: How many Vigilantes lived in the world of The Shadow before him? WE don't know, because they died before becoming The Protagonist. Were they less brave? Less worthy?

Or think of it like this: Not everybody can be Doc Savage, but anyone can try and become Doc Savage. So you start where Doc Savage is already a legend.

I start when he just met his buddies and fate sent them in their first adventure. Will they all survive? Will any of them become The Protagonist? Is this a team book?

Why is it that my starting point is less Pulp than yours? Everybody had to be a nobody before they became famous no?

Your starting point is no less valid a preference for gaming. Do whatever you like, by all means. However, it might be different than people's expectations for a pulp game. In the published works, Doc Savage was already legendary within the fiction as of the first published story - "The Man of Bronze" in 1933. That sort of beginning would be people's default expectations for pulp.

I think it is a change of genre to have adventures set in the same world, but at a different time or place than the standard for the genre. For example, I might have a game set in the Star Trek universe where the PCs aren't a Federation starship crew - but instead are enterprising criminals pulling heists on a single planet. Or I might have a game set in a world of high fantasy, but the PCs are pre-teen kids getting into trouble in their village. These are twists on the genre that might be great fun, but it's different than how the genre generally goes.

But once again, a game isn't a novel, movie, tv/radio show. It's a different beast.

I would say you're correct if the game was "Doc Savage and his crew", I would expect in such a game to play as one of those.

In a game called Conan I would expect someone to be Conan, in a game called Hyborian Adventures not really.
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GeekyBugle

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #100 on: April 28, 2021, 05:45:51 PM »
Yeah that's what I was getting at -- stylistically, a "pulp" game DOES have you as the heroes already, you're the badass who kicks ass and chews gum. It's not about scrounging your way up from some copper pieces to maybe become something.

You're Indiana Jones.

The rules can present challenge and failure, but with that style of game it's not really about "am I going to get killed" so much anymore.

So because that's how it has been done it's how it should be done?

Who said anything about copper pieces? You, not me, there are other ways to handle the money thing and to handle the treasure thing too.

You seem to think that a game where you can be killed can't have other types of threats/incentives. You're wrong.

You know of Indiana Jones because he survived, do you think he always was as competent as when you first saw him?

Star Wars was Pulp, and yet, here you have a farmer that fails and becomes The Hero, and in the process a more competent character dies.

You want to play Heroes, I want to play the Year Zero and not skipp it.
I think it's fine to start at "zero." But I don't know if I'd call that "pulp". Part of pulp is that the hero is already competent.

If he was just a normal dude then doing pulp-y things like jumping from one moving train to another in the middle of a fight would just be suicide. So you won't really be doing any pulp stuff.

So to you immortality (plot armor) is fundational to any Pulp game. I disagree, It's way more heroic, awesome and daring to jump between trains in the middle of a fight when you're not Doc Savage than when you are.
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

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Chris24601

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #101 on: April 28, 2021, 07:42:53 PM »
So to you Pulp is being the legendary hero, not becoming the legendary hero. But even the legends weren't so at some point no?
Depends on how you define it.

Sure, technically there was a point in Batman’s fictional life when he wasn’t a legendary hero... but all those points are backstory because he’s already Batman on page 1 of issue 1 of Detective Comics.

The hallmark of the pulp hero is their heroics in the here and now... how they became a hero is backstory and, ideally can be summed up in no more than a couple of sentences.

Basically, if you’re intent on doing something using an OSR system (personally, I agree that the d6 system is the best option for what you’re doing) then the not a hero part is pre-level 1.

But another important part of the pulp genre, which is, again, why OSR is a bad fit, is that pulp heroes also don’t improve much. Oh, sure, they’ll pick up a new trick or stunt or skill here and there (which is unlikely to ever come up again), but they don’t get significantly better at their core competencies. Their growth, if done as a serial, tends to be making a new friend, picking up a love interest or being recognized for their actions during their adventure.

That’s why a skill-based with incremental improvement like you find in the d6 system or a point based system like HERO or Mutants & Masterminds (if you want to do something more d20-based and has its own SRD so you can just use their rules and focus on setting elements) is going to generally work better than a level-based system.

Chris24601

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #102 on: April 28, 2021, 08:04:31 PM »
As an addendum, the reason d6 works really well for pulp is that earned XP can be used to either improve your PC -or- in an emergency to add dice to a check. Thus, you get in over your head and you’ll have to burn XP to survive, so you’re rewarded for playing smart by keeping more XP.

If you wanted to slap that onto an OSR chassis I’d suggest this; Start the session with a maximum XP reward in mind, then dock each PC an amount of XP each time during the session each time luck has to step in and save them, then at the end of the session the PC keeps whatever is left.

This keeps meta-currency out of the gameplay side and essentially means you get more XP the less you have to rely on luck to survive. Instead of death, the cost of failure is less XP/slower advancement relative to your fellow players.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #103 on: April 28, 2021, 08:22:32 PM »
So to you Pulp is being the legendary hero, not becoming the legendary hero. But even the legends weren't so at some point no?
Depends on how you define it.

Sure, technically there was a point in Batman’s fictional life when he wasn’t a legendary hero... but all those points are backstory because he’s already Batman on page 1 of issue 1 of Detective Comics.

The hallmark of the pulp hero is their heroics in the here and now... how they became a hero is backstory and, ideally can be summed up in no more than a couple of sentences.

Basically, if you’re intent on doing something using an OSR system (personally, I agree that the d6 system is the best option for what you’re doing) then the not a hero part is pre-level 1.

But another important part of the pulp genre, which is, again, why OSR is a bad fit, is that pulp heroes also don’t improve much. Oh, sure, they’ll pick up a new trick or stunt or skill here and there (which is unlikely to ever come up again), but they don’t get significantly better at their core competencies. Their growth, if done as a serial, tends to be making a new friend, picking up a love interest or being recognized for their actions during their adventure.

That’s why a skill-based with incremental improvement like you find in the d6 system or a point based system like HERO or Mutants & Masterminds (if you want to do something more d20-based and has its own SRD so you can just use their rules and focus on setting elements) is going to generally work better than a level-based system.

The reason in a novel/comic/etc you usually (most of the time but not always) get the hero when it's a hero is because no one would care about Bruce Wayne if we didn't know who he is.

And yet we got the Year One arch at some point.

In the novels X... So? It's a game, you DON'T have to emulate the novels one to one. If I wanted to experience the Pulp novels I would go read them because nothing else is going to be 100%.

I want to experience living in a world where Pulp heroes could exist.

But Improvement! So? You think it can't be capped or slowed down?
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

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Chris24601

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Re: Some Tropes SHOULD be subverted
« Reply #104 on: April 28, 2021, 09:41:03 PM »
But Improvement! So? You think it can't be capped or slowed down?
First, why so snippy? You asked for advice and input, but then get aggressive at anyone who says anything that disagrees with your original premise.

Second, of course you can cap and slow things down. Where did I say you could not? I was offering general design advice to fit the genre because you’ve presented no specific mechanics to discuss one way or the other.

That said, you’ve said you intend to base your system off OSR rules, so some flavor of TSR D&D is the presumed starting point or its not “OSR-based.”

And the reason I find that a bad fit is that level-based advancement tends to drop a bunch of stuff all at once when you level vs. the granularity of improving one skill by one rank every session or so.

When you slow down level-based progression it means longer stretches where your character is static. In skill-based progression you can still have a feeling of progress be because going from rolling 5d6 to 5d6+1 for one skill (of dozens) is still an improvement, even if it’s tiny relative to the PC as a whole.

Similarly, if levels are capped, once you reach that cap you’re basically done in terms of improvement. With skills, once you cap your primary ones you can always move on towards picking up new skills and getting those to the cap.

Honestly, I think you’re doing yourself a bit of a disservice in terms of game design in not wanting to even look at systems outside of the OSR; particularly when there are already systems that model the genre you intend to write a game for. Seeing how other people have solved for a particular problem can better inform your decisions within your own system, particularly if you want to avoid repeating the mistakes made by previous attempts.

Limiting the scope of your options to the OSR is roughly akin to believing Palladium’s Robotech game is the pinnacle of mecha combat rpgs while never even looking at Mekton or Jovian Chronicles/Heavy Gear, Battletech/Mechwarrior or the rules for mecha in d20 Future (or even mechanics from the Mechwarrior Clix for that matter).

But if you’ve already made up your mind, why ask in the first place? Just get to writing and/or share with us your progress and/or concepts.