This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: "Solved" worlds  (Read 4496 times)

The Butcher

  • Cyborg Shock Trooper
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7183
"Solved" worlds
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2015, 06:59:09 PM »
Quote from: Christopher Brady;848878
Let's clarify what people (or at least what I believe) mean when they 'solved worlds'.

It's a setting in gaming that once you defeat, stop or otherwise resolve the big issue, the only thing you can do is escalate to the point of silliness (Saved the world?  Let's save THE UNIVERSE!), or anything the characters can do seems (and that's a key word, this is another subjective topic) to be anti-climatic.

After all, once you save the world, everything else you can do after seems small and inconsequential.  And, repetitive world shaking threats get dull after a while, no?  It's not always inconsequential, but it feels that way to a fair amount of gamers.


Not a tabletop game, but this pretty much sums up how I've felt about World of Warcraft ever since (after) Wrath of the Lich King. Killing Arthas pretty much "solved" Warcraft for me, though there were still adventures to be had — they contrived Deathwing for the following exoansion, which was okay, I guess; and a far-off continent that didn't really interact with the rest of the story (except for a single, minor supporting character) for another; pulled a time travel/alternate history trick for this one; and seem surprisingly back on track for the next (though you could argüe that both Warlords of Draenor and Legion are, each in its way, rehashes of Burning Crusade).

Quote from: Christopher Brady;848878
This is why I prefer the more personal adventures of Sword and Sorcery over the ones of High Fantasy, because a lot of people seem to mix that into Epic Fantasy (Which is what Dragonlance and Tolkien's Lord of The Rings trilogy are.)


Absolutely. Well put.

Opaopajr

  • Señor Wences
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7768
"Solved" worlds
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2015, 08:12:23 PM »
What I liked most about Athas from its first incarnation is that it is essentially a planet at the end stage of the star going red giant. There was a golden age, several in fact, and it never will be as it was regardless at efforts of "re-greening." It is futile, the gods have left, the magic is tainted, the psionics will only increase, you are all fighting for what's left. Make meaning of the final ebb.

Ripping out the big magical movers and shakers, the Sorcerer Kings and the Dragon, is annoying, but easily replaceable. There'll always be another person with bad intent who wants a shot at the top. What is irritating is the attempt at "re-greening." That requires a GM willing to either put the kibosh on its expansion potential, or somehow corrupting it. Otherwise you slip into parasidaical parody, "good guys won, onward to utopia!"

There's a reason games about angels and demons repeatedly comment that heaven is not all that interesting a place for adventure. When it's heaven, there's little tension for the street level player; no tension, no adventure. If it's on the prime material plane at all, and has any sort of mixture of alignments, (let alone schools of thought), it has to by nature decay and corrupt into something interesting. Even a universe of LG is going to bicker about something to the point of conflict.
Just make your fuckin' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what's interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it's more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
-- talysman

Christopher Brady

  • The Voice of Raisin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • C
  • Posts: 4733
"Solved" worlds
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2015, 10:27:41 PM »
Personally (and that's just my opinion) I've been trying to figure out what D&D, Runnequest, Dragon Warrior, et al style of High Fantasy should mean.

On one hand we have all these settings that are Epic Fantasy (as per the tropes presented by Tolkien's Lord of The Rings and various other authors, like Terry Brooks and David Eddings.)  Where you have a big bad that the protagonists need to defeat to 'save the world'.

On the other hand, we have settings like Greyhawk, Mystara and The Forgotten Realms, which are -and ESPECIALLY the Realms- very much like how Robert E. Howard set up his lands of Hyboria, where you have Medieval England, Renaissance Italy, Ancient Egypt, Mongolia and the Jungles of Africa all on the same continent, and where you have old ruins and ancient civilizations to loot and plunder.

And yet, especially in the Realms of late, there's been this rash of world shaking disasters one after another, making it more like Epic Fantasy.

I wish we could have some of the older feel of some modules.
"And now, my friends, a Dragon's toast!  To life's little blessings:  wars, plagues and all forms of evil.  Their presence keeps us alert --- and their absence makes us grateful." -T.A. Barron[/SIZE]

Ravenswing

  • Iconoclast
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2393
  • Iconoclast
    • Apotheosis of the Invisible City
"Solved" worlds
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2015, 10:41:21 PM »
Quote from: Warthur;848805
True, but I don't think Middle Earth is realistic in that way - it's a world constructed to convey a particular body of invented myth, and once those myths are wrapped up it's kind of done.


Quote from: tenbones;848808
I agree with you based on your historical and real-life points. But if we're taking the term at it's intended use (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, anyone) I think the idea is that most RPG's are "fixed" content in the box.


Oh, sure.  I am foursquare in my admiration for JRRT.  He was a heck of a storyteller, mythmaker and philologist.  But I knew decades before ICE paid me to fill in some of the gaps that he blew chunks as a demographer, historian, economist and sociologist.  Not that having sensible nation-states with inhabitants that reacting the way inhabitants do was any part of his goal: he wanted a place setting to tell his tale, and did that.

And that's the case for the "fixed-in-the-box" RPGs.  As a rule, most game writers -- indeed, most gamers -- suck at those things too, and have a bunch of weird shibboleths which are mishmashes of their favorite fantasy book, that pseudo-historical movie they saw that time, Things They Heard From Some Dude Somewhere, and dimly remembered 10th grade social studies classes.

Not, of course, that the vast majority of published settings goes in-depth into the economic interconnections within their nations, or that the vast majority of published adventures spend more than a couple paragraphs speculating on the aftermath of plot lines after the PCs are rewarded for their heroism.  Since most players aren't interested, that's okay.

The others play in my campaign.  :hatsoff:

This was a cool site, until it became an echo chamber for whiners screeching about how the "Evul SJWs are TAKING OVAH!!!" every time any RPG book included a non-"traditional" NPC or concept, or their MAGA peeners got in a twist. You're in luck, drama queens: the Taliban is hiring.

nDervish

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • n
  • Posts: 750
"Solved" worlds
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2015, 05:40:34 AM »
Quote from: tenbones;848808

This is why I asked the parallel question - is this observation about "solved worlds" a thing relating to D&D-style level-based games? As you've astutely pointed out, it's obviously not that way in history, because history keeps going on.


I seem to have missed your parallel question initially, but, no, I don't think it's something specific to level-based or zero-to-hero games.  Any game, at any power level, can have "save the world"-type campaign structures and, as you said later in your post:

Quote from: tenbones;848808

I think that's the real point: solving lesser conflict is never as satisfying as solving the big conflict. And once the big conflict of a setting is solved - how many more big conflicts can there be without feeling this is "not fun" anymore.


The "solved world" phenomenon arises from the setting being based around "The Big Conflict" and the difficulty of finding something else meaningful to do after The Big Conflict has been dealt with, not from the game's advancement mechanics.

Exploderwizard

  • DESTROYER OF HOBBIES!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • E
  • Posts: 5026
"Solved" worlds
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2015, 08:11:10 AM »
Quote from: Omega;848882
Totally untrue. Especially for Dragonlance. There were stories untold and stories yet to be told. The evil armies did not just evaporate at the ends.


From a gaming perspective, following the destruction/defeat of entities like Sauron and Takhisis, the cleanup of lesser minions and the righting of lesser wrongs feels more like puttering on after the story is essentially over than anything else.

" You just took out the overlord that would destroy the world, what are you going to do?'

Cleanup on aisle four is just such a letdown after that.

That is why I think worlds without a built-in apocalypse or uber-overlord who must be stopped before destroying everything are better left to novels. Epic fantasy and superheroism has crept so far into most fantasy gaming that some players today feel like their exploits have to be turned up to 11 just to feel like they are doing something heroic.

A game world that is more stable and less prone to being obliterated by something every other Tuesday has more potential for long term campaigning. It also has the added benefit of still being around if the players fail while doing something important. There may be terrible consequences if the big bad completes his/her plan, but as long as the world keeps spinning, there is a chance to make things right.
Quote from: JonWake
Gamers, as a whole, are much like primitive cavemen when confronted with a new game. Rather than 'oh, neat, what's this do?', the reaction is to decide if it's a sex hole, then hit it with a rock.

Quote from: Old Geezer;724252
At some point it seems like D&D is going to disappear up its own ass.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;766997
In the randomness of the dice lies the seed for the great oak of creativity and fun. The great virtue of the dice is that they come without boxed text.

Bren

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7638
    • http://honorandintrigue.blogspot.com/
"Solved" worlds
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2015, 08:38:42 AM »
Quote from: Christopher Brady;848935
Personally (and that's just my opinion) I've been trying to figure out what D&D, Runnequest, Dragon Warrior, et al style of High Fantasy should mean.
Runequest doesn't really have a big bad that you can or are supposed to defeat. The Second Age setting that Moon Design used is followed by the Third Age setting that the original game used. And when the Third Age ends there will be a Fourth Age which undoubtedly will have some central conflict or conflicts of its own.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;849005
From a gaming perspective, following the destruction/defeat of entities like Sauron and Takhisis, the cleanup of lesser minions and the righting of lesser wrongs feels more like puttering on after the story is essentially over than anything else.

" You just took out the overlord that would destroy the world, what are you going to do?'

Cleanup on aisle four is just such a letdown after that.
That's why most of the games I run are less epic. I think an epic game, like Pendragon, is fun, but it is also in my mind, a limited setting. If the big bad is defeated, the surviving players probably do live happily ever after and if they fail, the world ends. Either way, the campaign is over.
Currently running: Runequest in Glorantha + Call of Cthulhu   Currently playing: D&D 5E + RQ
My Blog: For Honor...and Intrigue
I have a gold medal from Ravenswing and Gronan owes me bee

Omega

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • O
  • Posts: 17102
"Solved" worlds
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2015, 03:07:18 AM »
Quote from: Exploderwizard;849005
" You just took out the overlord that would destroy the world, what are you going to do?'


Stop them when they return, or whomever tries to replace them, next time.

The world is always in need of saving.

The Illithids are trying to snuff out stars. ALL OF THEM..
The Beholders are building a DEATH STAR SIZED ARTIFACT...
Some wizard just KILLED ALL THE GODS...

This of course assumes the PCs even participated in the big events. Towns still need saving. Dungeons need delving.

Christopher Brady

  • The Voice of Raisin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • C
  • Posts: 4733
"Solved" worlds
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2015, 03:14:43 AM »
Quote from: Omega;849166
Stop them when they return, or whomever tries to replace them, next time.

The world is always in need of saving.

The Illithids are trying to snuff out stars. ALL OF THEM..
The Beholders are building a DEATH STAR SIZED ARTIFACT...
Some wizard just KILLED ALL THE GODS...

This of course assumes the PCs even participated in the big events. Towns still need saving. Dungeons need delving.


And that doesn't getting boring?  Man, I sincerely wish I could hold on to that sense of wonder.  After the sixth or seventh world disaster, I get jaded.
"And now, my friends, a Dragon's toast!  To life's little blessings:  wars, plagues and all forms of evil.  Their presence keeps us alert --- and their absence makes us grateful." -T.A. Barron[/SIZE]

Exploderwizard

  • DESTROYER OF HOBBIES!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • E
  • Posts: 5026
"Solved" worlds
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2015, 07:05:45 AM »
Quote from: Omega;849166
Stop them when they return, or whomever tries to replace them, next time.

The world is always in need of saving.

The Illithids are trying to snuff out stars. ALL OF THEM..
The Beholders are building a DEATH STAR SIZED ARTIFACT...
Some wizard just KILLED ALL THE GODS...

This of course assumes the PCs even participated in the big events. Towns still need saving. Dungeons need delving.


Those are all great epic adventures to END a campaign.

 After stopping the Illithids from destroying all the stars, going and cleaning out a dungeon just feels so hum drum.

OK guys awesome, last session you maneuvered down a trench and hit a tiny target, blowing up the beholder's death star. This session, you are celebrating in the village when you notice that someone has been stealing apples from the orchard!  Can you solve this mystery? :p
Quote from: JonWake
Gamers, as a whole, are much like primitive cavemen when confronted with a new game. Rather than 'oh, neat, what's this do?', the reaction is to decide if it's a sex hole, then hit it with a rock.

Quote from: Old Geezer;724252
At some point it seems like D&D is going to disappear up its own ass.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;766997
In the randomness of the dice lies the seed for the great oak of creativity and fun. The great virtue of the dice is that they come without boxed text.

dsivis
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 344
    • http://lugnutism.blogspot.com/
"Solved" worlds
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2015, 09:56:51 AM »
Pretty much any Campaign Setting based on a book series - depending on whether the Campaign Setting writers set it before or after the events of the novels.
Sovereign Stone was a pretty good 3e D&D variant but they set it after the books. A less thoughtful player could interpret that as making any PCs be "cleanup" for the NPCs.
"It's a Druish conspiracy. Haven't you read the Protocols of the Elders of Albion?" - clash

Skarg

  • Venerable Gamer
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2380
"Solved" worlds
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2015, 11:31:37 AM »
Quote from: Exploderwizard;849005
From a gaming perspective, following the destruction/defeat of entities like Sauron and Takhisis, the cleanup of lesser minions and the righting of lesser wrongs feels more like puttering on after the story is essentially over than anything else.

" You just took out the overlord that would destroy the world, what are you going to do?'

Cleanup on aisle four is just such a letdown after that.


Heh. I'd expect many of the players I've played with would be relieved and hope the GM would stop forcing them to save the world so they could get up to more personally interesting things. But on the other hand:

* They might suspect that the world doesn't have a whole lot of real interest, if the GM was pulling this, and...

* If the PCs were pumped up with enough power to be the ones whom the world needed to save its butt from destruction by some awful threat that they could beat, that may (...) imply that they're way overpowered for the world they're in, and so the GM may (...) be hard-pressed to challenge them in other ways.

Quote
That is why I think worlds without a built-in apocalypse or uber-overlord who must be stopped before destroying everything are better left to novels. Epic fantasy and superheroism has crept so far into most fantasy gaming that some players today feel like their exploits have to be turned up to 11 just to feel like they are doing something heroic.


Huh? Even if those silly players want to stay inside the silly mindset created by bad stories, I wouldn't call it better.

Quote
A game world that is more stable and less prone to being obliterated by something every other Tuesday has more potential for long term campaigning. It also has the added benefit of still being around if the players fail while doing something important. There may be terrible consequences if the big bad completes his/her plan, but as long as the world keeps spinning, there is a chance to make things right.


Yes. Is Dr. Deaddoomdreamdude _really_ going to destroy the GM's world if the players don't do X, and is there really a worthwhile world there to save, or is the GM bluffing to try to force the players down his railroad plot, or just trying for a cheap way to make the players care about something? It all sounds far more lame and uninteresting to me than most of the other campaign settings I've seen. It actually detracts from my interest in the world to have the GM threatening to have it destroyed.

I've seen players complain that certain GMs (not me) were always running "collapse of the great nation" worlds, and saying they'd rather play a game set during the rise of a great nation, than the fall. But even a fall of an empire sounds more interesting than the bluff of the destruction of an otherwise-not-so-interesting world.

Old One Eye

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • O
  • Posts: 976
"Solved" worlds
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2015, 11:55:25 AM »
Seems to me there are two separate concepts here.  One is the continuation of a particular campaign where the primary threat has been defeated.  The other is starting a new campaign in the aftermath of the primary threat being defeated.

My 5e game of Tyranny of Dragons is about 3-4 sessions from completion.  The players have already said they want to continue the game, but I have struggled with it.  The game has focused so much on the dragon cult that it feels the game should be over at the adventure's culmination.  When a campaign focuses upon saving the world, I agree that it feels hollow to continue the game.

I have no problem, however, in starting a new campaign in the wake of a setting's primary threat being defeated.  I've long wanted to run a Middle Earth hexcrawl set a year or so after the War of the Ring.  A new campaign will create its own threats and enemies.

Bren

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7638
    • http://honorandintrigue.blogspot.com/
"Solved" worlds
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2015, 01:46:57 PM »
Quote from: Exploderwizard;849176
OK guys awesome, last session you maneuvered down a trench and hit a tiny target, blowing up the beholder's death star. This session, you are celebrating in the village when you notice that someone has been stealing apples from the orchard!  Can you solve this mystery? :p

Sure, we meteor swarm the orchard! That will stop the thieves from stealing any apples.
Currently running: Runequest in Glorantha + Call of Cthulhu   Currently playing: D&D 5E + RQ
My Blog: For Honor...and Intrigue
I have a gold medal from Ravenswing and Gronan owes me bee

Thornhammer

  • Seen Your Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • T
  • Posts: 859
"Solved" worlds
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2015, 04:40:55 PM »
Quote from: Bren;849232
Sure, we meteor swarm the orchard! That will stop the thieves from stealing any apples.


After the apple orchard burns to the ground, you see the elderly Ms. Agathor walking towards your party.  She sees the smoldering embers of the once-proud orchard, and mutters "Well, maybe the rats in my cellar can just STAY..."