Quote from: Ruprecht on April 23, 2023, 08:03:55 PM
How about a slightly different approach. Not an alternate history but a sideshow.

Galadriel puts together a fellowship to draw the Mordor away from the actual fellowship. So you've got folks on a near certainly suicidal mission across the woodlands towards the Black Gate hoping to bring the Nazgul and Orcs ontop of them to give Frodo a chance. Let them die in a big bloody battle at the Black Gate (perhaps surviving only because Pippin looks into the Palantir... although how they would know that or not I don't know)

I like that as an alternative. It could be exactly the same adventure either way - trying to sneak into Mordor. While they want to be a distraction - they also don't want to be caught too soon. So they'd keep trying to sneak through and act as if they're trying for Mount Doom the whole time.

I'd just have to tweak how the PCs get assembled.

I could even offer both options to the players and let them decide.

So I'm planning to run this as a one-shot at the end of the month. I have write-ups for all the races done, and am close to complete with the pregenerated characters. One of my design goals was to have a playable mix of big and small characters. I am feeling unsure about the whole thing, since I don't have much Savage Worlds experience, but I'm hopeful it will work.

With the pregens, I'm working on balance. For example, I've rated Pippin as a handy character mostly because he is a Taunt master, which I think fits well with his portrayal but also works in Savage Worlds message. He can't fight, but he is handy in a fight by taunting the enemy. I've tried to make other small PCs so they can fill a niche even if they clearly aren't as tough in a regular fight as the big PCs.

Here's my rules with what I'm doing for the races:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Fhk2oCR14Ou30K6YnKqFY_c-yvva-GuipcfH2OK1Fb4/edit

And here's my draft of the pregenerated characters:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y12Ytu3g3XpP6AoDrDS3sUWi6A0-GOMVC_EDfOQ_wi8/edit#heading=h.8ypmshjjytv6

Looks like some cool concepts at a glance. I'm not super familiar with the mechanical implications, but meh. On the other hand, I'm kinda worried for this Fellowship's world. I feel the main Fellowship typically does better when Pippin isn't there or is less at the fore (though this timeline's Pippin may be better/more capable), and Eowyn being missing from Rohan is going to make things very interesting if that place is still doing its thing. Look forward to hearing how everything turns out.

Quote from: KindaMeh on September 21, 2023, 05:14:54 PM
Looks like some cool concepts at a glance. I'm not super familiar with the mechanical implications, but meh. On the other hand, I'm kinda worried for this Fellowship's world. I feel the main Fellowship typically does better when Pippin isn't there or is less at the fore (though this timeline's Pippin may be better/more capable), and Eowyn being missing from Rohan is going to make things very interesting if that place is still doing its thing. Look forward to hearing how everything turns out.

Hm. Pippin was responsible for the destruction of Isengard by moving the Ents to action. (Moreso in the movie than in the book, but even in the book, he had a vital part.)

He then was the biggest possible distraction to Saruman via the palantir. Purely by luck, Pippin made Sauron think that the hobbits were captured at Isengard by Saruman, so Sauron looked west for the hobbits and was completely ignorant of Frodo and Sam slipping into Mordor. That was purely by accident, but it was absolutely crucial to the plan.

He also saved Faramir's life.

It mixes up who is doing what, but the main figures are still active - they're just doing different things.

---

I'll start a separate thread on the Savage World mechanics.

Quote from: jhkim on September 22, 2023, 06:28:51 PM

Quote from: KindaMeh on September 21, 2023, 05:14:54 PM
Looks like some cool concepts at a glance. I'm not super familiar with the mechanical implications, but meh. On the other hand, I'm kinda worried for this Fellowship's world. I feel the main Fellowship typically does better when Pippin isn't there or is less at the fore (though this timeline's Pippin may be better/more capable), and Eowyn being missing from Rohan is going to make things very interesting if that place is still doing its thing. Look forward to hearing how everything turns out.

Hm. Pippin was responsible for the destruction of Isengard by moving the Ents to action. (Moreso in the movie than in the book, but even in the book, he had a vital part.)

He then was the biggest possible distraction to Saruman via the palantir. Purely by luck, Pippin made Sauron think that the hobbits were captured at Isengard by Saruman, so Sauron looked west for the hobbits and was completely ignorant of Frodo and Sam slipping into Mordor. That was purely by accident, but it was absolutely crucial to the plan.

He also saved Faramir's life.

It mixes up who is doing what, but the main figures are still active - they're just doing different things.

---

I'll start a separate thread on the Savage World mechanics.

Fair points on Pippin. I guess I was more just thinking of when the fellowship was fully together rather than split up. When he's more just regarded as a bit of a fool of a Took, so to speak.But yeah, I guess I majorly downplayed some key stuff there. He also lit the signal fire, I think.

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2023, 02:17:34 PM
More broadly, I don't think being pure of heart and resistant to corruption is unique to hobbits in Tolkien. It is a property of spirit, not race. For example, the Sackville-Bagginses were portrayed as greedy for Bilbo's inheritance, and I think they'd be quickly corrupted if they got the Ring.

And of course, Gollum was originally a hobbit. In D&D terms, essentially most hobbits are Lawful Good; they have an ordered society (even if not heavily-structured) and help one another. Smeagol was Neutral Evil, indifferent to laws or individual freedoms, but only concerned with personal wants and needs.

As for the elves, in order to have a society function where its kings and queens live for a thousand years, they have to be Lawful - even at the expense of doing things which are, if not Evil, then are certainly not Good, for example (as in the book The Hobbit) capturing people passing through their lands and imprisoning them, then showing up after the dragon's been slain and demanding a chunk of it. The elves, then, are Lawful Neutral.

Sauron is of course Chaotic Evil - he wants to destroy everything, not so he can build something in its place (not even an evil something) but simply for the sake of destruction.

Essentially the ring of invisibility is like an intelligent sword in D&D, with its own personality and desires - and alignment, obviously Chaotic Evil like Sauron. Worn long enough, it gradually shifts the alignment of the user. For Smeagol, this was no step at all, he was already Chaotic Evil. The problem for the ring is that he was also cowardly, and went and hid in caves underground.

A Lawful Good hobbit has to change from Lawful to Neutral to Chaotic, and from Good to Neutral to Evil - that's four alignment steps in all.

A Lawful Neutral elf has one fewer steps to take to Chaotic Evil.

Even if you don't use alignment systems in your game, or don't use D&D, the above can spark some thought about why this or that race or individual can be better to take care of the ring.

Another way to think of it is that one who is accustomed to being a nobody will be somewhat resistant to the ring's call to power; but one who is accustomed to power may say, "perhaps I can use it for my own purposes - er, I mean, for good?"

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2023, 02:17:34 PM
More broadly, I don't think being pure of heart and resistant to corruption is unique to hobbits in Tolkien. It is a property of spirit, not race. For example, the Sackville-Bagginses were portrayed as greedy for Bilbo's inheritance, and I think they'd be quickly corrupted if they got the Ring.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on September 23, 2023, 05:09:36 AM
Even if you don't use alignment systems in your game, or don't use D&D, the above can spark some thought about why this or that race or individual can be better to take care of the ring.

Another way to think of it is that one who is accustomed to being a nobody will be somewhat resistant to the ring's call to power; but one who is accustomed to power may say, "perhaps I can use it for my own purposes - er, I mean, for good?"

This last bit seems much closer to what I'd say -- but I think that many people accustomed to being a nobody would be greedy to become something important. Again, I wouldn't say that Lobelia Sackville-Baggins was accustomed to power. Rather, she wanted to get a step up. I stand by saying that she'd be terrible as a ring-bearer.

Nearly everyone in power had ambition to get there or stay there. But there are also plenty who don't have power who want to get it.

Most of the Shire went along with Sharkey and his gang after they took over. If Frodo and the others hadn't come back, that might well have become the normal way of life there.

OK, so after-action report from running it this past Friday.

General Thoughts

• I only had three players out of five originally signed up. All three were more the classical Tolkien fan - older guys.
• The players chose three that were closest to the canonical story: Pippin, Amrothos (Knight of the Silver Swan) and Dusan-ghan-Buri.
• Many of the 12 possible PCs had knowledge of Mordor that suggest different ways in, but none of them were in this game.
• I wanted to give players a lot of choices, so I had included more classical options - and encounters along different ways into Mordor, but in retrospect, the result was much more parallel to the story than I had pictured.

System

• I thought Savage Worlds worked great.
• I had some issues with the cheat-sheet that I had downloaded, which turned out to be harder to use than I expected. I'll look at rolling one myself.
• There were three opportunities to use the Chase rules, but I didn't feel confident enough while juggling everything else to use them.

Highlights

• They slipped past orc and Uruk-Hai patrols, and captured Smeagol/Gollum. With an expert woodsman (Dusan) and a Gondorian knight (Amrothos), they had few problems with sneaking or with Faramir's people. Smeagol guided them to Cirith Ungol.
• After climbing to the top of the stairs of Cirith Ungol, I had Pippin make a Spirit roll when he saw a Ringwraith flying up from the city below. Despite a high Spirit, he rolled a fumble with double 1s (a 1 in 60 chance). So he put on the Ring, and the others grabbed him and dragged him into the caves while the Ringwraith gave chase.
• They rolled well after and got away from Shelob - but with Mordor now alerted, they now had to navigate the plains with sweeping armies. On the plus side, they were well-supplied and skilled.
• They observed how, like in the tower, the armies were huge but poorly disciplined. It was risky, but they made their way across in disguise, and did well. They eventually joined the army forming a guard around Mount Doom.
• With some subterfuge, they tricked a work-crew troll who was closing up one of the lava tubes in the mountain. However, shortly after the work-crew leader gave chase. Dusan the wild man was slow, and chose to try to distract the chasing trolls.
• They had to approach the blistering heat of the lava on their level, instead of throwing it down from above. Pippin stopped, coughing at the heat. Amrothos told him to throw the Ring, but he wouldn't.
• Amrothos grabbed the Ring from him, with a very good Spirit roll, but not enough to just casually toss it. His hand wouldn't release the chain, so he stumbled toward the lava to burn his hand with it.
• Gollum and Pippin both tackled him, and he was horribly burned but the Ring went on the lava. Gollum tried to leap after it, but Pippin saved Gollum, pulling him back.
• Dusan rolled poorly, and was slain by trolls, but as a mystic, I allowed that his ghost could give guidance to them as they tried to escape. They got to some higher ground, and were rescued by eagles - including Smeagol with them.

Hindsight

• It came out nicely dramatic with die rolls kept as intended, but it overall paralleled the original story too closely for what I had hoped.
• The characters worked well, but I will put in some changes - including making Amrothos more of a unique individual.

QuoteSauron is of course Chaotic Evil - he wants to destroy everything, not so he can build something in its place (not even an evil something) but simply for the sake of destruction.

Like, oof. Big no.
What you described is Melkor/Morgoth - Sauron boss. He wanted to usurp God, and when realised it's impossible - he started to desire obliteration of God creation out of spite.

Sauron while following partially in his steps is very different beast. He is extremely Lawful Evil being, joining Melkor first because he thought Valars needs strong ruler instead of squabbling, and later desire to control Chaos was still important part of his character. While Melkor dispersed his power basically within whole world to taint it, Sauron concentrated his power in extremely powerful artifact, that also enhanced his powers of control.

He definitely wanted to rule and organise Middle-Earth. And Gandalf basically prophecised that anyone who would by luck or will grasp Ring from Sauron (extremelly hard task) - would fall to the same trap, influenced by Ring trying to impose own order on all.

QuoteAnd of course, Gollum was originally a hobbit. In D&D terms, essentially most hobbits are Lawful Good; they have an ordered society (even if not heavily-structured) and help one another. Smeagol was Neutral Evil, indifferent to laws or individual freedoms, but only concerned with personal wants and needs.

I'd say Neutral Good. Hobbits do not care about complex civilisation, abhore buerocracy and their laws are very guarding individual hobbit freedoms.

Quote from: jhkim on April 21, 2023, 08:55:21 PM
In theory, I like the idea of Eowyn as a possible member of the new Fellowship. However, I'm a little stuck on how to get her to Lothlorien. She is very devoted to her uncle Theoden, so why would she head off?

Depending on the timing, if Gandalf doesn't get out of Moria, or gets out late, then Wormtongue may be make making his advances on her and or destroying/killing Theoden, and she may motivated to take extreme measures. 

(I'm no middle earth Scholar).  And... what if Eowyn takes Shadowfax?

And perhaps the King of Rohan (although senseless) has received a message from Galadriel for aid, regarding the Ring of Power (either directly or indirectly).  Wormtongue would have destroyed the letter, but Eowyn got the message first.  And she, seeking a remedy to the king's mysterious malady, and knowing the elves have great healers among them, answers, and heads to Lothlorien.