Quote from: PaulChapmanFrom the numbers I've seen, this is true on the "direct to customer" level, hobby distribution level, and the mainstream book trade level.

Simply put, the majority of customers want hardcovers.

I've always wondered how the hell this can be determined.  I can't think of many RPGs which are both hardcover and softcover releases.  Of those few that are, the hardcover was always released first, and I'm under the impression that the gamers that do actually buy stuff are an impatient lot and have to have it as soon as possible.  So, it isn't like there's a softcover version of the book sitting right next to a hardcover version and, therefore, an actual choice.

I have a feeling it's more that the profit margins on hardcovers are higher because the price can be jacked up because of "perceived increased value."

Quote from: GabrielI've always wondered how the hell this can be determined.  I can't think of many RPGs which are both hardcover and softcover releases.  Of those few that are, the hardcover was always released first, and I'm under the impression that the gamers that do actually buy stuff are an impatient lot and have to have it as soon as possible.  So, it isn't like there's a softcover version of the book sitting right next to a hardcover version and, therefore, an actual choice.

I have a feeling it's more that the profit margins on hardcovers are higher because the price can be jacked up because of "perceived increased value."

It can be determined by relative sales of products companies deem similar in quality.

Basically, hardcovers get "priority dollars". What we noticed is that if a company puts out both a softcover and a hardcover that you want, the average consumer buys the hardcover first.

Often this means they don't buy the softcover at all, or buy it at a steep discount later when people are just trying to clear inventory out of the warehouse.

Remember that RPGs are done on a real strange model that counts on 90% of sales in the first 30 days or so. So priority dollars are huge in that model. RPG companies also realized they could make a little more money selling hardcovers and anything that lets us increase margins, which are razor thin, is desirable.

Basically, people buy a hardcover before a softcover and you can sell the HC at a better profit margin, but a softcover isn't that much cheaper to produce than a HC.

This isn't true with the other divide in products, between softcover and PDF, where the PDF is attractive because of how much more cheap it is to produce. But if you're printing a book, and spending a couple grand to do it, why not spend an extra grand and make it HC.

Chuck

Quote from: jcfialaI'm iffy on the HC/SC debate.  There's some hardcovers that I think should have been soft - Runequest Mongoose, I'm looking at you.

Yeah, it really threw me when I found out that the core MRQ books would be hardcovers. The stated aim was to get the rules out in a no-frills easy-on-the-pocket format... which, erm, would seem to point towards softcovers all the way.

I would rather MRQ came out in a single softcover with the Companion rules (which are pretty damn important - enough so that there's an SRD of them out there) included - and I'd bet that if it did the cost would be about the same as the hardcover MRQ core rulebook.

I prefer hardcover--I've got enough curled covers (Palladium), split spines (Marvel Superheroes) from light casual reading and use over years that I'd like something more durable.

On the other hand I like cheap but well made.


For the record: Hearts & Souls is hardcover, but I'd take the same cut either way for publication: Compare 25USD hardcover H&S to 25.00 Soft cover Truth & Justice. Roughly the same page count, I like T&J but I know Chad is making more money than I per sale significantly. That's ok--I'd rather people get a good durable lasting book than to slap another 5-10 bucks on there for hardcover. H

Neither I nor Chad are getting rich of game books. He is trying to make a living at this though, I'm just trying to make good games (and survive on my teeny dole.)

Quote from: JongWKSoftcovers are more easily damaged inside a backpack. That is my personal experience, but I'm not swayed one way or the other.

As someone who carried around RPGs (and other hardcover books) in backpacks for years, I can tell you that this isn't true, except in the very short term.Yes, a softcover is more likely to have some of the border of the cover damaged by being carried around in a backpack. But the Hardcover, if it has to be regularly carried around in a backpack, is going to have its spine destroyed.

So yes, on one single trip, you might slightly damage a softcover and you might not a hardcover.
But if you take both books every week for a year, the softcover will basically just have that same slight cover damage, while the hardcover will be in pieces.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckRemember that RPGs are done on a real strange model that counts on 90% of sales in the first 30 days or so. So priority dollars are huge in that model. RPG companies also realized they could make a little more money selling hardcovers and anything that lets us increase margins, which are razor thin, is desirable.  

Yes, in other words, they are banking their entire stake on selling to obsessive drooling collectors who aren't necessarily ever going to actually play. This is the only context in which Paul's statements about sales are true, and its ultimately going to be the undoing of many a company.  

If you don't actually get people playing, you don't get new players. If you don't get new players eventually your collectors die of old age (or more likely, heart disease and diabetes by age 45 from sitting on their corpulent worthless asses all day), and you're left without an RPG hobby.

RPGPundit

Speaking of making money, I _do_ think that the pocket gamebooks as done by Green Ronin or Mongoose are a pretty neat idea, so that not everyone has to buy the core gamebook if he doesn't care for the DM'ing information...

Quote from: RPGPunditYes, in other words, they are banking their entire stake on selling to obsessive drooling collectors who aren't necessarily ever going to actually play. This is the only context in which Paul's statements about sales are true, and its ultimately going to be the undoing of many a company.  

If you don't actually get people playing, you don't get new players. If you don't get new players eventually your collectors die of old age (or more likely, heart disease and diabetes by age 45 from sitting on their corpulent worthless asses all day), and you're left without an RPG hobby.

RPGPundit

I don't think the decision of whether to make a book HC or SC takes collectors into account. I think most people who buy a HC intend to use it for some purpose, either using it whole in their game, mining for ideas or simple reading pleasure.

Where you get into books aimed at collectors are the full-color glossy books like Buffy, Angel and to a lesser extent I'm guessing Conan. These books are meant to appeal to fans of their properties.

But don't underestimate the value of priority dollars. A hardcover book just SEEMS more important. And if it is both HC and in color, well it must be good or they wouldn't have spent so much money on it!

Trust me, RPG companies would love to operate on a different model but there's a reason why companies like GR and Mongoose, which are almost strictly HC these days, are also the companies doing the best business.

Of course quality counts too, because the FIRST 3rd party company to go almost totally HC was Fast Forward

Still, even THEY got quite a few nibbles because their books looked substantial. Big, meaty HC just draw the grubby hands of gamers lol.

Chuck

I prefer small softcovers that aren't large enough that by opening the book fully it damages the spine (Marvel, D&D Boxed Sets).  Between the larger books (Rifts or 3.5), I prefer the economics of softcovers.  Hardcovers seem like a luxury.  

Again I ask, why does no one publish spiral bound books?

Quote from: GunslingerAgain I ask, why does no one publish spiral bound books?

Looks unprofessional and doesn't play well with its shelf neighbours.

Quote from: GunslingerI prefer small softcovers that aren't large enough that by opening the book fully it damages the spine (Marvel, D&D Boxed Sets).  Between the larger books (Rifts or 3.5), I prefer the economics of softcovers.  Hardcovers seem like a luxury.  

Again I ask, why does no one publish spiral bound books?

That one I know. No one can read the name on the spine when stacked on a shelf.

-clash

Quote from: GunslingerAgain I ask, why does no one publish spiral bound books?

I would be hard pressed to buy a spiral-bound RPG and I can't really explain why, especially because I have no problem using a printed PDF in a folder.  

Pete

The main reasons for choosing hardcovers are durability, ease of use (in some cases) and a higher perceived value by customers. The third is probably the dominant reason; hardcovers are thought to be more valuable than softcovers, colour art better than B&W, and glossy paper better than simple paper. I don't begrudge publishers if they follow this model, even if I personally prefer smaller pamphlets with B&W artwork (old D&D was pretty good for this, but there are some nice new examples as well, like Polaris or Necromancer's Tome of Horrors) and paper that's designed for utility. Still, the current model is the market reality, and most publishers are naturally followers - they try to go where the market leader, Wizards, does. In the long term, some publishers would be wiser to break with this model for two possible reasons:
a) satisfying niche markets, and
b) making something innovative that will find fans both within and without the core hobby. Much of this has to be in content, but it isn't impossible that it would extend to form - e.g. Kevin Siembieda claims to have mostly "invented" the softcover rulebook format in an age where boxed sets and hardcovers were the safe bet. Today, it could be boxed sets, sold in toy stores. Or whatever.

Quote from: flyingmiceThat one I know. No one can read the name on the spine when stacked on a shelf.

Ahhh, that makes sense.  You could put a soft wrap around the spirals, similar to what they do with some cookbooks I've seen.

I think the main part of this that a lot of folks are missing is the PDF market.

I really think this impacts the decision to print hardcover or softcover in ways that might not be apparent.

We at RPGObjects print a couple books a year. Often these are hardcovers. Why? Because the difference in investment isn't that different between a HC and SC. If something is our one big investment for the year, the difference in price isn't significanltly different.

In other words, if a company is looking to cut costs, it doesn't make sense to try and cut them by printing a cheap softcover BW book as much as it does to just put the book out on PDF.

Options are also limited by the fact that there aren't a lot of low-cost print options the market has shown a willingness to support.

PODs tend to be supported by the same small fraction of early adopters as will buy a PDF. People just don't think the books will be of good quality or durable.

Paperback sized books and off-sized books, something like what Dilbert collections are printed as might be cheaper but haven't gained much traction in the market either.

In short, the RPG market only has a few formats it has adopted and priority dollars seem to flow HC in color, HC in BW, SC, PDF.

RPG manufacturers really aren't dumb (unless you count their decision to stay in the hobby at all) and are just following what the market does.