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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: jhkim on September 22, 2021, 08:01:30 PM

Title: Social connections in D&D
Post by: jhkim on September 22, 2021, 08:01:30 PM
The thread on Adjusting the "Adventurer Mentality" to non-D&D settings (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/adjusting-the-adventurer-mentality-to-non-dd-settingd/) got me thinking about background ties for characters in D&D or D&D-based games. The quote that made me think was:

Do you require them to have ties to NPCs/organizations/locations too, or just other PCs? I don't find that they have any problems tying together with other PCs, but the other stuff is usually WAY down on their list.

Depends on the genre.

D&D wandering adventurers don’t get much from prior ties because they’re rarely in one place long enough for it to matter.

Most of the other systems I run generally either have built-in rules for establishing and encouraging NPC ties (ex. Backgrounds in World of Darkness games which provide mechanical benefits to having allies, contacts, fame, influence, status, etc.) or are settings where NPC/organizational ties are part of the base setting (ex. Star Trek PCs generally have a small town’s worth of NPCs aboard ship with needed specializations they’re probably lacking themselves and personalities you can play with).

In my experience, yeah, D&D characters tend to not have any social connections. But in other games like GURPS Fantasy, it was common for players to have a few connections. One PC might have a powerful family that gives support, another might have rank in the local military. A few even take things like a sidekick or a useful pet. Conversely, PCs might have powerful enemies or loved ones who might be at risk. In a point-based game, these can be paid for as Advantages and Disadvantages.

But D&D doesn't have this structure in character creation.

Do people have any preferred ways of handling these in D&D-based games? I could see handling this by random rolls on a table, or maybe by a simple selection (i.e. take one major connection or two minor, maybe).
Title: Re: Social connections in D&D
Post by: therealjcm on September 22, 2021, 08:27:18 PM
I think the notion of "write down a short paragraph explaining your connection with two other PCs" is somewhat common. I've used it for a very long time, I've heard of other people using it as well, and I've never had players push back on it or get upset about the requirement.

I should probably expand on that a little: the process of writing down connections to other characters typically gets the players thinking about their connections in the larger sense. They invent a family, guild, friends, or other things as a consequence of that. It's simple and generally effective in my experience.
Title: Re: Social connections in D&D
Post by: oggsmash on September 22, 2021, 08:35:14 PM
The thread on Adjusting the "Adventurer Mentality" to non-D&D settings (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/adjusting-the-adventurer-mentality-to-non-dd-settingd/) got me thinking about background ties for characters in D&D or D&D-based games. The quote that made me think was:

Do you require them to have ties to NPCs/organizations/locations too, or just other PCs? I don't find that they have any problems tying together with other PCs, but the other stuff is usually WAY down on their list.

Depends on the genre.

D&D wandering adventurers don’t get much from prior ties because they’re rarely in one place long enough for it to matter.

Most of the other systems I run generally either have built-in rules for establishing and encouraging NPC ties (ex. Backgrounds in World of Darkness games which provide mechanical benefits to having allies, contacts, fame, influence, status, etc.) or are settings where NPC/organizational ties are part of the base setting (ex. Star Trek PCs generally have a small town’s worth of NPCs aboard ship with needed specializations they’re probably lacking themselves and personalities you can play with).

In my experience, yeah, D&D characters tend to not have any social connections. But in other games like GURPS Fantasy, it was common for players to have a few connections. One PC might have a powerful family that gives support, another might have rank in the local military. A few even take things like a sidekick or a useful pet. Conversely, PCs might have powerful enemies or loved ones who might be at risk. In a point-based game, these can be paid for as Advantages and Disadvantages.

But D&D doesn't have this structure in character creation.

Do people have any preferred ways of handling these in D&D-based games? I could see handling this by random rolls on a table, or maybe by a simple selection (i.e. take one major connection or two minor, maybe).

 It depends on what, if any in game advantages such a connection would offer.   For instance if a character wants to be the son of a landed noble, and has an income or access to things others might not because of his social position, I would probably have some responsibilities pop up because of that. If a Barbarian wants to be known as having been part of a famous warband for making it easier to talk to berserkers the party may run across in the wilds, I would likely have some group of bounty hunters or the like attempting to track down some members of that warband. 

    If they just want to mention it as a background, I would just let them.  GURPS of course assigns a point cost, because often these advantages come with some very nice benefits, but even they are often balanced with obligations to match them, so I guess I would use that as a model to try to balance how big the advantage is to some responsibility/obligation/disadvantage attached to make it "zero out" with regard to what the player will get from it for nothing.   

  I do like to reward players with in game connections based on their actions and deeds (or give them enemies on the same basis, and some of these enemies will attack with rumors and bad mouthing instead of swords and spells) in all the games I play, even in things like DCC where there really isnt much of a "metric" for this.  For games like this and D&D, I definitely allow the RP part of tabletop RPGs to come in more and allow them to take advantage of such connections or squander them, or something in the middle.
Title: Re: Social connections in D&D
Post by: HappyDaze on September 22, 2021, 09:05:02 PM
The thread on Adjusting the "Adventurer Mentality" to non-D&D settings (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/adjusting-the-adventurer-mentality-to-non-dd-settingd/) got me thinking about background ties for characters in D&D or D&D-based games. The quote that made me think was:

Do you require them to have ties to NPCs/organizations/locations too, or just other PCs? I don't find that they have any problems tying together with other PCs, but the other stuff is usually WAY down on their list.

Depends on the genre.

D&D wandering adventurers don’t get much from prior ties because they’re rarely in one place long enough for it to matter.

Most of the other systems I run generally either have built-in rules for establishing and encouraging NPC ties (ex. Backgrounds in World of Darkness games which provide mechanical benefits to having allies, contacts, fame, influence, status, etc.) or are settings where NPC/organizational ties are part of the base setting (ex. Star Trek PCs generally have a small town’s worth of NPCs aboard ship with needed specializations they’re probably lacking themselves and personalities you can play with).

In my experience, yeah, D&D characters tend to not have any social connections. But in other games like GURPS Fantasy, it was common for players to have a few connections. One PC might have a powerful family that gives support, another might have rank in the local military. A few even take things like a sidekick or a useful pet. Conversely, PCs might have powerful enemies or loved ones who might be at risk. In a point-based game, these can be paid for as Advantages and Disadvantages.

But D&D doesn't have this structure in character creation.

Do people have any preferred ways of handling these in D&D-based games? I could see handling this by random rolls on a table, or maybe by a simple selection (i.e. take one major connection or two minor, maybe).
Using 5e as the point of reference, I think Backgrounds were supposed to lead into this, but they don't really push it very hard (and I know a lot of players that view Backgrounds as simply being the source of 2 skill proficiencies, 2 tool/language proficiencies, some most likely to be useless ability, and a bunch of ignored fluff text). They later added the option of a Group Patron in Eberron (and later Tasha's Crock of Excrement) that was, again, largely viewed as a few game mechanics surrounded by useless fluff.
Title: Re: Social connections in D&D
Post by: Aglondir on September 22, 2021, 09:33:57 PM
Using 5e as the point of reference, I think Backgrounds were supposed to lead into this, but they don't really push it very hard (and I know a lot of players that view Backgrounds as simply being the source of 2 skill proficiencies, 2 tool/language proficiencies, some most likely to be useless ability, and a bunch of ignored fluff text). They later added the option of a Group Patron in Eberron (and later Tasha's Crock of Excrement) that was, again, largely viewed as a few game mechanics surrounded by useless fluff.
Yeah, that matches my experience.

I created a house rule where you get contacts based on your Charisma mod (so a +4 gets you four contacts.)

No one cared.
Title: Re: Social connections in D&D
Post by: Lunamancer on September 22, 2021, 10:24:46 PM
My current AD&D campaign is literally nothing more than a series of dungeon crawls. Well, we did sneak in some hex crawling last session. But I'm not even trying to pretend it's anything else. And the PCs have so many social connections. it gets difficult to track.

Initially, there's the mentor/master. This is who the PC will ultimately have to return to for training to level up. Magic-users will generally have their master, clerics have their church, thieves could have a mentor, guild, or gang, and fighters could serve a guild, barracks, or mercenary troupe.

Then almost immediately--for me, after the first adventure since I like to get right to it and don't have much happen before--is you've got your suppliers. Armorer, weaponer, general trader, alchemist/apaothecary/herbalist/witch for the magic-user to re-up spell components but also for stuff like garlic and wolvesbane which might come in handy for any of the adventurers. A lot of times, there will be need to visit the temple for healing, cure disease, and so forth.

That's the initial contacts. Through play, connections can grow quickly. And again, keep in mind I'm doing nothing but dungeon crawls and this stuff comes up in spades. We joke that if either party is surprised, no one wants to give up element of surprise, so there isn't going to be any parlay. But apart from that, assuming there's not a hostile reaction, any creature the PCs can speak with (due to common language), I make an encounter reactions roll. If the result is anything but hostile, I start tracking loyalty. On more than one occasion, PCs have teamed up with a rival adventuring party or even a group of humanoids encountered in a dungeon to take out a common enemy.

If the PCs venture to a different city or town, they have to develop connections with their mentors, guilds, and suppliers there. And unlike initially, where I just assume you've got the stuff you need to get started, for these future connections I again call for encounter reaction rolls and track loyalty.

Title: Re: Social connections in D&D
Post by: S'mon on September 23, 2021, 02:22:12 AM
Do people have any preferred ways of handling these in D&D-based games?

I've always just left it to player preference. Within reason, you can be any social class you want and have the connections you want, as long as you still have the standard starting gear. Some of the 5e D&D Backgrounds like Acolyte do include 'social support' elements, the Noble background even includes retainers.
Title: Re: Social connections in D&D
Post by: Steven Mitchell on September 23, 2021, 09:37:37 AM
I used to build in such things mechanically, using various house rules, old-style "domain" adjustments, etc. 

Now, in my D&D or D&D-like games, it's all part of the roleplaying that occurs naturally in the sandbox.  Specifically, I have factions and NPCs of various stripes, some of which will interest the players.  It is very difficult to navigate the world without some kind of connection to something.  I don't really care which connections they form.  I also don't tend to do the wandering murder hobo episodic game, either, unless we are testing something.  The PCs are moving around more than most people in the setting, but they still go back to some of the same places again and again.

Title: Re: Social connections in D&D
Post by: jhkim on September 23, 2021, 01:50:19 PM
Using 5e as the point of reference, I think Backgrounds were supposed to lead into this, but they don't really push it very hard (and I know a lot of players that view Backgrounds as simply being the source of 2 skill proficiencies, 2 tool/language proficiencies, some most likely to be useless ability, and a bunch of ignored fluff text). They later added the option of a Group Patron in Eberron (and later Tasha's Crock of Excrement) that was, again, largely viewed as a few game mechanics surrounded by useless fluff.
Yeah, that matches my experience.

I created a house rule where you get contacts based on your Charisma mod (so a +4 gets you four contacts.)

No one cared.

The thing that strikes me is that the 5E background benefits are extremely minimal compared to the social advantages in other game systems. For example, as S'mon puts it:

I've always just left it to player preference. Within reason, you can be any social class you want and have the connections you want, as long as you still have the standard starting gear. Some of the 5e D&D Backgrounds like Acolyte do include 'social support' elements, the Noble background even includes retainers.

I'm fine with this and it works, but it does seem very limited compared to other games that I've played. For example, in one GURPS Fantasy campaign, I made an heir of a wealthy merchant family. That made a major material difference for him. First of all, he was rich and had top-notch equipment especially because his family were arms merchants. Further, he could call in favors with his or related families. (Status and Wealth advantages.)

As another example, in a HarnMaster game, I played an Agrikan priest who was the official priest of the village. That earned him some pay as a job, but more importantly he was a significant authority figure. For example, at one point he whipped up a posse to help hunt down some Morgathian cultists in the area.

But things like getting aid in finance or manpower is real advantage, and if it's not connected to the system, then it seems like the player is cheating to get something for free. In most of the D&D games I've played, we've dodged this by having the PCs have no significant connections. If a player has a noble background, then they are impoverished and far from any family or allies. If they are a priest, then they're a wandering priest without rank in their church.

If I imagine a character as an actual landed noble, then I'd expect him to have greater material wealth and advantage over another character who is a commoner.


In my next D&D game, it will probably be in a setting without a coin-based economy (an Incan-inspired fantasy setting), so I might use that as an excuse to also change how both wealth and connections work, where there is a system for fairly choosing real advantage versus other advantages.
Title: Re: Social connections in D&D
Post by: Bedrockbrendan on September 23, 2021, 07:00:45 PM
The thread on Adjusting the "Adventurer Mentality" to non-D&D settings (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/adjusting-the-adventurer-mentality-to-non-dd-settingd/) got me thinking about background ties for characters in D&D or D&D-based games. The quote that made me think was:

Do you require them to have ties to NPCs/organizations/locations too, or just other PCs? I don't find that they have any problems tying together with other PCs, but the other stuff is usually WAY down on their list.

Depends on the genre.

D&D wandering adventurers don’t get much from prior ties because they’re rarely in one place long enough for it to matter.

Most of the other systems I run generally either have built-in rules for establishing and encouraging NPC ties (ex. Backgrounds in World of Darkness games which provide mechanical benefits to having allies, contacts, fame, influence, status, etc.) or are settings where NPC/organizational ties are part of the base setting (ex. Star Trek PCs generally have a small town’s worth of NPCs aboard ship with needed specializations they’re probably lacking themselves and personalities you can play with).

In my experience, yeah, D&D characters tend to not have any social connections. But in other games like GURPS Fantasy, it was common for players to have a few connections. One PC might have a powerful family that gives support, another might have rank in the local military. A few even take things like a sidekick or a useful pet. Conversely, PCs might have powerful enemies or loved ones who might be at risk. In a point-based game, these can be paid for as Advantages and Disadvantages.

But D&D doesn't have this structure in character creation.

Do people have any preferred ways of handling these in D&D-based games? I could see handling this by random rolls on a table, or maybe by a simple selection (i.e. take one major connection or two minor, maybe).

I usually spend time establishing the players family and other relationships prior to play (I just learned over time that is better to do in advance so when it comes up, it doesn't present issues). Not picky about the method. I have used random generators (there are good character and family generators online used by writers that work in an RPG). I have used tables. And I have simply asked the players 'who are your parents' and let them decide. Sometimes for things like siblings, I roll to see how many they have.
Title: Re: Social connections in D&D
Post by: tenbones on September 23, 2021, 07:47:37 PM
Unless you as the GM enforce those social connections most players will not engage in those things.

You can write your backgrounds down all you want, it still requires the GM to make something useful out of it in-game. The problem I see is players will work with me to establish their backgrounds, but the moment you contextualize it into the setting and it becomes a "thing" - they realize, too late, they may have over promised on what they can deliver.

Having a significant other is the kiss of death to many players. How many people have girlfriends that will sit at home while their boyfriend/girlfriend goes out for weeks at a time "adventuring" into dangerous places perhaps never to return - and of course when I express this reality - it sucks. Of course there are solutions to this - most players don't think that far ahead.

Title: Re: Social connections in D&D
Post by: Shasarak on September 23, 2021, 09:01:26 PM
As far as I remember, the only Dungeons and Dragons game to incorporate family was HackMaster
Title: Re: Social connections in D&D
Post by: caldrail on September 23, 2021, 09:58:06 PM
Quote
Having a significant other is the kiss of death to many players. How many people have girlfriends that will sit at home while their boyfriend/girlfriend goes out for weeks at a time "adventuring" into dangerous places perhaps never to return - and of course when I express this reality - it sucks. Of course there are solutions to this - most players don't think that far ahead.

It has to be said that ordinary relationships are not the stuff of fantasy roleplay. On the other hand, one of my players had a long standing and complicated love affair with one of the villainous NPC's. Nothing overt, and I didn't plan on it. It just seemed to become part of the narrative. Like film stars, player characters would tend to find partners among their own kind. Otherwise as they get higher level, things like political marriages would be cropping up. In fact, as an example of how to sidestep the issue, remember that Star Tek episode where Kirk and Spock fight to the death over an arranged marriage?

Title: Re: Social connections in D&D
Post by: Bren on September 23, 2021, 10:52:11 PM
I have used random generators (there are good character and family generators online used by writers that work in an RPG).
I didn't know these were even a thing. Thanks!
Title: Re: Social connections in D&D
Post by: S'mon on September 24, 2021, 01:47:59 AM
The thing that strikes me is that the 5E background benefits are extremely minimal compared to the social advantages in other game systems. For example, as S'mon puts it:

I've always just left it to player preference. Within reason, you can be any social class you want and have the connections you want, as long as you still have the standard starting gear. Some of the 5e D&D Backgrounds like Acolyte do include 'social support' elements, the Noble background even includes retainers.

I'm fine with this and it works, but it does seem very limited compared to other games that I've played. For example, in one GURPS Fantasy campaign, I made an heir of a wealthy merchant family. That made a major material difference for him. First of all, he was rich and had top-notch equipment especially because his family were arms merchants. Further, he could call in favors with his or related families. (Status and Wealth advantages.)

The D&D approach is definitely designed for D&D!

I'm generally not keen on 'buying' social status, or military/professional rank - it results in having the top people be less competent than the bottom people, which tends not to be true IRL. I'd rather social status be free within whatever limits the campaign sets, and rank be derived partly from competency, not bought as an Advantage.  Usually it's easiest if either every PC is of similar social status, or else it's a setting (like standard D&D, or cinematic Old West) where social status does not matter much.
Title: Re: Social connections in D&D
Post by: Vidgrip on September 24, 2021, 06:21:56 PM
I'm currently prepping a D&D game using Adventures in Middle Earth. Although the setting has no mechanic for creating ties, they are a must-have for this sort of campaign. I have decided to proceed as follows:
1) I will tell players that during character creation, they must roll attributes in order. No rearranging.
2) If they don't like what they rolled, they may set that sheet aside, and try again. They may repeat this up to four times.
3) Every sheet they set aside is actually a sibling who also lives in the campaign area. The player has been rolling their family.

The homes of siblings become sanctuaries where the party can shelter and rest (an important mechanic in AiME since you can only take long rests in a sanctuary). During the campaign, certain towns and villages come under threat. Players may have family there to protect, a built-in reason to care about the advance of the Shadow. Siblings can also make quick, impromptu adventure hooks:
"Your brother with a Constitution of 4 has fallen ill again and needs healing herbs from the Withered Heath."
"Your sister with a 6 Wisdom has pledged herself to rotten scoundrel who may be an agent of the Enemy. Perhaps you should investigate."

Players could also bring a sibling along as a helper during an adventure, if they want to take the risk. A sibling might have significant skills that cover some area in which the party is lacking. I'm not sure how it will play out, but I'll give it a try.
Title: Re: Social connections in D&D
Post by: caldrail on September 24, 2021, 06:29:30 PM
Excellent idea.
Title: Re: Social connections in D&D
Post by: jhkim on September 26, 2021, 08:55:31 PM
I've always just left it to player preference. Within reason, you can be any social class you want and have the connections you want, as long as you still have the standard starting gear. Some of the 5e D&D Backgrounds like Acolyte do include 'social support' elements, the Noble background even includes retainers.

I'm fine with this and it works, but it does seem very limited compared to other games that I've played. For example, in one GURPS Fantasy campaign, I made an heir of a wealthy merchant family. That made a major material difference for him. First of all, he was rich and had top-notch equipment especially because his family were arms merchants. Further, he could call in favors with his or related families. (Status and Wealth advantages.)

The D&D approach is definitely designed for D&D!

I'm generally not keen on 'buying' social status, or military/professional rank - it results in having the top people be less competent than the bottom people, which tends not to be true IRL. I'd rather social status be free within whatever limits the campaign sets, and rank be derived partly from competency, not bought as an Advantage.  Usually it's easiest if either every PC is of similar social status, or else it's a setting (like standard D&D, or cinematic Old West) where social status does not matter much.

Overall, I'm trying for a game that is distinctly D&D, but is different than standard. It's should be a game where society and culture are important, not like cinematic wild-west where class doesn't matter. So I want to strike some sort of balance between how I've done things in other fantasy games and standard D&D. In the campaign, all the PCs do have similar status because they will all be recruited by royal authority for their work. So they will all be high status, but some may be slightly higher or slightly lower. Also, they'll have different connections because they're potentially from widely divergent backgrounds - since the empire is so vast. A respected chief from the southern desert will be treated differently than a scion of a noble family in the capital.

As for how to balance things:

1) I've also seen the problem of less competent leaders, so I'd like the "buying" to be things unrelated to general competence. This being D&D, all of the PCs would have roughly balanced attributes and personal abilities. But the extra options might include things like secret patrons, special items, helpful spirits, and the like.

2) On reflection, I might just have a unique set of Backgrounds for the setting - but where here the choices aren't just like standard choices. They'll have major advantages associated with them.
Title: Re: Social connections in D&D
Post by: S'mon on September 26, 2021, 11:02:21 PM
1) I've also seen the problem of less competent leaders, so I'd like the "buying" to be things unrelated to general competence. This being D&D, all of the PCs would have roughly balanced attributes and personal abilities. But the extra options might include things like secret patrons, special items, helpful spirits, and the like.

2) On reflection, I might just have a unique set of Backgrounds for the setting - but where here the choices aren't just like standard choices. They'll have major advantages associated with them.

Sounds like a good approach to me. I like how flexible the 5e Backgrounds system is, & you can easily create a unique set tailored to your campaign, with built in social connections, and more impressive benefits than the default backgrounds. They can also be used to ensure that PCs start with campaign-important skill Proficiencies, eg in a campaign with lots of social interaction you can include Persuasion proficiency on most or all of the Backgrounds.