Quote from: Effete on January 13, 2023, 02:33:49 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on January 13, 2023, 02:27:36 PM

Maybe I am Christopher Tolkien and this is what I do when I'm not repackaging my dads stuff?

If you're Christopher Tolkien then I'm Joe Biden... because I'm talking to ghosts.

Simon or Adam then

Quote from: THE_Leopold on January 13, 2023, 04:14:55 PM
Literally look at the Twitter feed of the annoucement:
https://twitter.com/Wizards_DnD/status/1613931980717957125

The vitrole is real.

It really is. Holy cow.

Still working through my thoughts on all of this. On one hand, it is their product they should be able to do what they want. On the other hand, people have been working with a good faith understanding that the original OGL would not change. On one hand, cancel culture and all of the posting of screenshot canceling their subs is the exact type of crap that I hate. On the other, it is happening to WotC.

Working through lots of stuff.

I will say this though. If I were a creator I would operate in one of two spaces. Either negotiate a license with a company to create content or make original content. I wouldn't hitch my work to any of these open licenses.

Quote from: tenbones on January 13, 2023, 04:17:16 PM
The new relaunch of Talislanta just got updated - they've cancelled the 5e version of the game. So only the traditional rules.

Good. We need more of this.

Yup. And I agree with everyone else. WotC's response wasn't a response. It was a my dad can beat up your dad bit.

Quote from: tenbones on January 13, 2023, 04:17:16 PM
The new relaunch of Talislanta just got updated - they've cancelled the 5e version of the game. So only the traditional rules.

Good. We need more of this.

Link? 

Quote from: FingerRod on January 13, 2023, 05:08:06 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on January 13, 2023, 04:14:55 PM
Literally look at the Twitter feed of the annoucement:
https://twitter.com/Wizards_DnD/status/1613931980717957125

The vitrole is real.

Still working through my thoughts on all of this. On one hand, it is their product they should be able to do what they want. On the other hand, people have been working with a good faith understanding that the original OGL would not change. On one hand, cancel culture and all of the posting of screenshot canceling their subs is the exact type of crap that I hate. On the other, it is happening to WotC.

I hate Twitter because of its low-attention-span rumor mongering. I hate when individuals have vitriol poured on them for relatively minor statements.

However, boycotting a company based on its own clearly announced policy and non-apology isn't the same.

I think it's reasonable to have vitriol over the broken promise that they would be open, especially given that the OGL v1.0a was inherently to WotC's advantage. It can and did shift the market to give them dominance, and now they were trying to break their own contract to dominate even more.

Right... So where are all these 'hatemongering and discriminatory' titles then within the OSR?

I'll wait. lol

Quote from: rhialto on January 13, 2023, 06:21:57 PM

Quote from: tenbones on January 13, 2023, 04:17:16 PM
The new relaunch of Talislanta just got updated - they've cancelled the 5e version of the game. So only the traditional rules.

Good. We need more of this.

Link? 

Quote from: jhkim on January 13, 2023, 06:28:42 PMI think it's reasonable to have vitriol over the broken promise that they would be open, especially given that the OGL v1.0a was inherently to WotC's advantage. It can and did shift the market to give them dominance, and now they were trying to break their own contract to dominate even more.

D&D was the dominant game before the OGL and the only time they lost the #1 spot was a result of the OGL. The OGL is clearly not to Wizards benefit or else they wouldn't be trying to cancel it. Paizo is a great example of this. Nothing Paizo does helps D&D achieve market dominance.

However, their response today shows their thinking. The OGL is just for the little guys who aren't a threat to them (i.e. fan content). They expect all the big players to sign a normal license deal that results in Wizards getting a royalty payment. It is also clear that they still intend to try and deauthorize 1.0a. And from Paizo's reaction, it looks like even Paizo thinks that WotC will succeed in this.

Quote from: FingerRod on January 13, 2023, 05:08:06 PM
On one hand, it is their product they should be able to do what they want. On the other hand, people have been working with a good faith understanding that the original OGL would not change.

Here's the thing. All WotC had to do was stop declaring new material as Open Content. The entire OneDnD/6e ruleset could have put behind a wall, with an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT license (the one they want the OGL to be) governing it's use. Who would have complained?

The only reason Paizo and the other big 3PPs balked is because they perceived a threat to their brand. If the OGL was left alone and new license agreement invented, I don't think any of this would be as big as it is now. Whoever is in charge at WotC is really fukken stupid.

Quote from: Effete on January 13, 2023, 06:54:27 PMHere's the thing. All WotC had to do was stop declaring new material as Open Content. The entire OneDnD/6e ruleset could have put behind a wall, with an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT license (the one they want the OGL to be) governing it's use. Who would have complained?

Except this would have resulted in the exact thing that happened with Pathfinder. Hasbro needs people to transition to One D&D and to do that they need to shut the door on future 5e content.

You may not like Hasbro's goal here, but it isn't stupid.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 13, 2023, 06:47:29 PM
Right... So where are all these 'hatemongering and discriminatory' titles then within the OSR?

From what I've seen, they (the Woke) think Pundit & Venger are hateful and discriminatory just by existing, and anything that comes from them is thus fruit of the tainted tree. It must be banned. They also think Milo is a Nazi, which makes Macris a Nazi by association. Which means his stuff shouldn't be allowed either.

(I have to say, spending the last 2 weeks on ENW fighting the good fight to Save Open Gaming is getting to me a bit) 
  :/

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 13, 2023, 06:51:58 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 13, 2023, 06:28:42 PMI think it's reasonable to have vitriol over the broken promise that they would be open, especially given that the OGL v1.0a was inherently to WotC's advantage. It can and did shift the market to give them dominance, and now they were trying to break their own contract to dominate even more.

D&D was the dominant game before the OGL and the only time they lost the #1 spot was a result of the OGL. The OGL is clearly not to Wizards benefit or else they wouldn't be trying to cancel it. Paizo is a great example of this. Nothing Paizo does helps D&D achieve market dominance.

However, their response today shows their thinking. The OGL is just for the little guys who aren't a threat to them (i.e. fan content). They expect all the big players to sign a normal license deal that results in Wizards getting a royalty payment. It is also clear that they still intend to try and deauthorize 1.0a. And from Paizo's reaction, it looks like even Paizo thinks that WotC will succeed in this.

That's some interesting history revisionism you got going there my dude.

No, WotC lost dominance because they pivoted from the OGL to the GSL for 4e, which is when Paizo pivoted from making 3pp for D&D to making Pathfinder.

D&D has market dominance to the extent it has THANKS to the OGL which made it easier to produce 3pp content for their game.

But they got greedy, they don't want 90% of the market/money, they want it all. The last time they tried this was in 4e, it backfired making Pathfinder the dominant game in the market, the same tactic decades later has backfired AGAIN in the same way but who knows WHO will be the dominant game this time.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 13, 2023, 07:02:54 PM

Quote from: Effete on January 13, 2023, 06:54:27 PMHere's the thing. All WotC had to do was stop declaring new material as Open Content. The entire OneDnD/6e ruleset could have put behind a wall, with an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT license (the one they want the OGL to be) governing it's use. Who would have complained?

Except this would have resulted in the exact thing that happened with Pathfinder. Hasbro needs people to transition to One D&D and to do that they need to shut the door on future 5e content.

You may not like Hasbro's goal here, but it isn't stupid.

Like I already said: Pathfinder wouldn't exist IF WotC hadn't tried this same shit with 4e putting it behind the GSL and cutting off ALL the 3pp that had given it the definitive edge.

You need to learn your facts before forming an opinion.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 13, 2023, 06:51:58 PM
D&D was the dominant game before the OGL and the only time they lost the #1 spot was a result of the OGL.

I'd say that's only part of the story. D&D was dominant before the OGL. D&D was also dominant after the OGL. When they lost that #1 spot was when they first tried to move away from the OGL with 4e and its "GSL." The attempted move away from the OGL to a new (and more restrictive, less open) license was one of the things that caused them to lose the #1 spot. Then they abandoned their GSL, returned to the OGL, and regained the #1 position.

This is their second attempt to move away from the OGL 1.0a to something more restrictive and less open, and this time they're also trying to kill or neuter the 1.0a version at the same time.

I think they way they've handled this entire thing makes them look like clueless buffoons. If I were a shareholder I would want corporate officer and management heads to roll.

Quote from: S'mon on January 13, 2023, 07:04:15 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 13, 2023, 06:47:29 PM
Right... So where are all these 'hatemongering and discriminatory' titles then within the OSR?

From what I've seen, they (the Woke) think Pundit & Venger are hateful and discriminatory just by existing, and anything that comes from them is thus fruit of the tainted tree. It must be banned. They also think Milo is a Nazi, which makes Macris a Nazi by association. Which means his stuff shouldn't be allowed either.

(I have to say, spending the last 2 weeks on ENW fighting the good fight to Save Open Gaming is getting to me a bit) 

Indeed... It's so transparently obvious that this is a complete red herring while trying to look like the 'good guys'. It's typical management speak and chicanery.

Basically, they wanted several pounds of flesh from everyone even the smallest content creators. $$$$$$$$$$$ But on the flip side, they have really damaged their rep and this is going to spawn a bit of a revolution in the gaming community.