Rereading this thread, I think a lot of the more convoluted ideas are a result of D&D AC being a combination of mobility and armor. It's a heavy overload for a single number and a lot of other games aren't saddled with it. It would be one of the few big things I would change if I ever write my OSR heartbreaker.

After reading through the comments, I've decided I'm going to try a house rule for my Stars Without Number game. I want to keep it simple above all.

If a shooter misses a target with a natural roll of 1-5 and there is a potential target nearby, they must make an evasion save or be hit. If the new target is facing away from the shot or is surprised, apply a -5 penalty to the save roll.

If the target is in melee, I would require a called shot and possibly grant cover as well if they are grappling.

Just my initial thoughts. I welcome suggestions.

Quote from: rytrasmi on October 28, 2021, 11:04:50 AM
Rereading this thread, I think a lot of the more convoluted ideas are a result of D&D AC being a combination of mobility and armor. It's a heavy overload for a single number and a lot of other games aren't saddled with it. It would be one of the few big things I would change if I ever write my OSR heartbreaker.

I do prefer the general vibe of Armor=DR myself, but I don't think that it's a good fit for D&D. Armor=DR tends to work better when the DR is kept to single digits (max of 12 or it will slow play substantially) and the character progression is relatively flat.

Pretty much any version of D&D/OSR involves substantial 'zero-to-hero' progression, which is a bad match for Armor=DR.


But even with armor=DR and a separate defense to be hit, the same issues generally apply. Though you can do things like intentionally hit an area with a grenade where your buddy in a mecha is fighting several bug-aliens in melee since the grenade won't get through his armor.

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Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on October 28, 2021, 03:01:10 PM
But even with armor=DR and a separate defense to be hit, the same issues generally apply. Though you can do things like intentionally hit an area with a grenade where your buddy in a mecha is fighting several bug-aliens in melee since the grenade won't get through his armor.

Yes, the calculus of what people are willing to try changes, and the edge cases are somewhat different, but the fundamental tension remains between keeping the game simple versus encouraging game play decisions or the simulation of what is happening.

Depending on the exact goals and tolerances for different edge cases, for a given person Armor as deflection or Armor as damage reduction might be easier or harder to manage.

A bigger influence is total health versus damage of weapons.  If a single bolt from a crossbow and kill or at least seriously hurt a relatively skilled combatant, then risking a shot that might hit an ally is very different than when your buddy has 80 hit point and a crossbow does 1d8 damage, but the shot has a good chance of taking out one of multiple opponents all doing 1d12+3 damage on a successful hit, maybe more on a critical.  Your buddy is going to take less damage overall during the fight even if you hit him once or twice.  If the shot can kill, you want to aim and wait for a really good shot--says immediately after the opponents knock your buddy down and the GM rules that you can make the shot unimpeded.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on October 29, 2021, 07:22:03 AMDepending on the exact goals and tolerances for different edge cases, for a given person Armor as deflection or Armor as damage reduction might be easier or harder to manage.

A bigger influence is total health versus damage of weapons.  If a single bolt from a crossbow and kill or at least seriously hurt a relatively skilled combatant, then risking a shot that might hit an ally is very different than when your buddy has 80 hit point and a crossbow does 1d8 damage, but the shot has a good chance of taking out one of multiple opponents all doing 1d12+3 damage on a successful hit, maybe more on a critical.  Your buddy is going to take less damage overall during the fight even if you hit him once or twice.  If the shot can kill, you want to aim and wait for a really good shot--says immediately after the opponents knock your buddy down and the GM rules that you can make the shot unimpeded.

Good points. Its odd that one game, D&D 5E that does the inflating hit points also makes it nearly risk free to fire into melee, whereas, Runequest, which has flat (and relatively low) hit points, makes it pretty risky to fire into melee. Although to be fair, sneak attacks, special class abilities, and certain feats can make a single arrow in 5E a lot more dangerous than an arrow hit in earlier versions like OD&D and AD&D.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 27, 2021, 10:54:15 PMThat's what I do now too. Do you apply the attacker's skill bonus to the second roll?

No. My thinking is that this isn't a shot aimed at the target so skill doesn't play a part. But I do still allow magic bonuses. This does have the side effect that a clumsy character with a penalty to Dex is more likely to hit anything except their target.

Then you get the comedy exchange:
"Great shot!"
"I was aiming for the other one."