Quote from: TechnomancerWell, it's 96 pages (about half as long as the real book IIRC), so it covers all the basics and then some.  The "Lite" version is enough to run a campaign with, I would say.  You are missing some classes, skills, spells, etc, but the system itself is pretty much all there.

All right.  Downloading away, then.  If I like what I see, I'll work the full thing into my gaming budget.  

Quote from: CyberzombieIt would be the most useful thing the Creature Catalog (or whatever that stupid Necromancer book was called) had ever done for me.  :heh:

I might just do it.  

You mean the one that was released before the 3e Monster Manual? That was the Creature Collection, and it was Sword & Sorcery, not Necromancer. Necromancer did the Tomes of Horror, which whoop ass - I don't want them confused with the CC. The confusion comes from the fact that S&S did some of the publishing for Necromancer stuff, like Kenzer has done with Necromancer recently.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonYou mean the one that was released before the 3e Monster Manual? That was the Creature Collection, and it was Sword & Sorcery, not Necromancer. Necromancer did the Tomes of Horror, which whoop ass - I don't want them confused with the CC. The confusion comes from the fact that S&S did some of the publishing for Necromancer stuff, like Kenzer has done with Necromancer recently.

The incestuous relationships of d20 companies drive me up the fucking wall!

You're right, though.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstI'm running a campaign right now....

Would you be willing to say a few things about your HARP campaign?  

What kind of setting are you using, and what kinds of adventures are you running?

Quote from: AkrasiaWould you be willing to say a few things about your HARP campaign?  

What kind of setting are you using, and what kinds of adventures are you running?

Okay, so I've got my HARP Lite open and I'm reading through it with lunch right now.  This is quite trippy to read -- it's like MERP and d20 got together and had a baby.  It's a very pretty baby, so far, though.  I'm just weirded out by the idea of MERP and d20 fucking, though.  :eek:

Quote from: CyberzombieI'm just weirded out by the idea of MERP and d20 fucking, though.  :eek:

Too much alcohol can lead to that sort of thing...
















...or so I'm told.

If anyone is familiar with both Rolemaster (2nd edition) and HARP, I'd be curious to know how easy it is to translate RM2 stats into HARP terms.  

The reason I am asking is that the main reason I'm tempted to give HARP a shot is that I own some very fine old ICE campaign and adventure modules with RM2 stats (assorted 'Shadow World' and 'Middle-earth' stuff).

Thanks!  

Quote from: Cyberzombie... This is quite trippy to read -- it's like MERP and d20 got together and had a baby.  It's a very pretty baby, so far ...

Given that d20 reads like MERP and AD&D got together and had a baby, it's a surprise that HARP is 'pretty' instead of being a gross, slobbering, mentally deficient horror.

Quote from: AkrasiaGiven that d20 reads like MERP and AD&D got together and had a baby, it's a surprise that HARP is 'pretty' instead of being a gross, slobbering, mentally deficient horror.

I sure don't see any resemblance between d20 and MERP. I see more resemblance between Ars Magica and d20 than between d20 and MERP.

But CZ is on the money. HARP really does seem like a hybrid of d20 and MERP. It's what struck me upon my first reading HARP.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI sure don't see any resemblance between d20 and MERP...

The skill system in 3e looks like it was taken from MERP.  At least that was my impression when I first read it (different skill point 'costs' for different professions/classes, spend skill points every level, roll and add your skill bonus to get the result, etc.).  Replace MERP's d% with 3e's d20, and you have pretty similar skill systems IMO.

The 'unified' experience chart for all classes in 3e was used by Rolemaster/MERP all along.

The use of a 'unified' mechanic (single die-type, 'higher is always good') was also used by Rolemaster/MERP all along.  Again, replace MERP's roll% + bonuses with 3e's roll d20 + bonuses, and you have very similar 'core mechanics' for both games.

So when I first read 3e, my first thought was: 'They've used Rolemaster/MERP to revise D&D!'

It's not surprising that you can see influences from both Ars Magica and Rolemaster in D&D. After all, Jonathan Tweet was one of the two main designers of Ars Magica (the other being Mark Rein-Hagen), and Monte Cook worked for ICE before he got a job at TSR.

Quote from: DackeIt's not surprising that you can see influences from both Ars Magica and Rolemaster in D&D. After all, Jonathan Tweet was one of the two main designers of Ars Magica (the other being Mark Rein-Hagen), and Monte Cook worked for ICE before he got a job at TSR.

And that's a good point. I'd have to concede that some RM influence must have gotten into D&D, just because Monte worked on both. It's just that the Ars Magica influence is just so strong it leaped out at me right from the start.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonAs SHARK says, HARP seems like an attempt by ICE to revive itself in the RPG market. It's a damned neat little game, which essentially cleaned up the old RM/MERP system and made it more accessible. It's too bad it didn't do any better than it did. Still, it's out there, and maybe it'll eventually grow a bigger player-base.

Just want to address a couple of points.

1) HARP is based mostly on RM2, not MERP. I have never owned nor read MERP. Still don't have a copy. However, HARP is not RM Lite. HARP is its own system, designed from the ground up (Lite implies that things were culled from RM to form the "Lite" game).

2) HARP was conceived to be a lighter (then Rolemaster) system to fill the niche that MERP used to fill (introductory level/style game).

3) Yes, it is quite likely that D&D did have some influence on HARP, so did Hero, and RuneQuest (other games that are favorites of mine). No matter what an author tries to tell you, anything that they produce is going to be influenced by things that they worked on in the past (and/or played/enjoyed a lot). It is simple human nature.

4) Yes, HARP has sold, and it still selling quite well. In fact, it is doing so well (and yes, compared to WOTC, this is a piddling amount, but then so is everything compared to WOTC), that I think it is the cause behind #5.

5) Since its rebirth, Alliance (the largest US distributor) has refused to carry ICE products because one of their VPs hates ICE. A few months ago, Alliance approached ICE, wanting to carry our stuff. It seems that the procurement staff wanted ICE products so badly that they went over this VP's head and got him removed from the decision making process (i.e. took him out of the loop). As of a couple of weeks ago (thanks to printer delays - arrghh), we are now carried by Alliance. What this shows is that there is a demand for ICE products (my opinion is that the demand is for HARP), and that it is growing.

6) HARP's player base continues to grow. Not fast, no. But slowly and continuously. For example, when HARP first came out, a fellow named grubman did a review (and gave it only so-so marks). Recently, he decided to try HARP again. He is now heartily and vocally supporting HARP  in a number of threads on rpg.net.

7) Something else to consider. Many game companies have been hit hard over the last several years due to distributor problems and such. ICE has avoided that by not relying upon distributor sales. We sell tto/through distributors, we just don't rely on them as the major portion of income. Thus, ICE has largely remained unaffected by those past issues.

HARP has had somehing like 5 or 6 books released for it, not counting the setting, Cyradon (which will be submitted to the ENnies this year), and at least 8 PDF products released for it, in addition to the print books (we are also starting periodical PDF support for the other lines as well).

9) Unlike many other companies, ICE is going for quality of products released, not quantity. ICE does not subscribe to the theory that a product's life cycle is 3 months. That sort of thinking only hurts the industry overall. Our idea is to build products that will last, products that will continue to sell many years down the road.

10) Yes, ICE has announced a revision for RM. We have not however, officially began working on it. However, we have set up a section of the ICE forums dedicated to discussing it in an unofficial manner.

I guess that is enough for now.

Cool -- someone from ICE is here!  

I have to say that I like HARP Lite, overall.  There are things I don't like, but I spend so much time picking game systems apart that that's not surprising.

I still don't like the stats -- you've got even more incentive to cheat on your rolls than you do in D&D.  And I don't like the die rolling mechanic, especially for combat.

But the game does have a lot of other features going for it that I do like.  I'm thinking about getting the full book just to see the full range of classes (whatever they're called in HARP).  The four in the book are interesting but don't give the full range of the system.

All in all, I'd say it is a pretty damn cool replacement for MERP.

Quote from: CyberzombieCool -- someone from ICE is here!  

Yeah, I do get around sometimes... hehe

Quote from: CyberzombieI have to say that I like HARP Lite, overall.  There are things I don't like, but I spend so much time picking game systems apart that that's not surprising.

My personal belief is that there is no such thing as a "perfect" game system. While some may come close, people's tastes are too varied for one system to work well for everybody.

This was taken into account when I designed HARP, and I tried  to make it as easy to customize as possible without such customizations disrupting the balance (which I have seen happen any number of times in any number of systems, including Rolemaster).

Quote from: CyberzombieI still don't like the stats -- you've got even more incentive to cheat on your rolls than you do in D&D.  And I don't like the die rolling mechanic, especially for combat.

Not quite as happy with that as I wanted to be. There are also other portions that I think could be better as well. Hindsight and all that....

As for the Dice Rolling mechanic, you do realize that it is almost identical to the dice rolling mechanic used by d20, don't you? Just using a different scale, and having the open-ended rolls.

As for combat, there are a number of different options you can select from. From a grittier combat system (Hack & Slash), to the Life Points option in the core rules, to a Damage Dice system (created at the request of der_kluge from the EN World forums - and found in HARPer's Bazaar #4) that is reminiscent of how damage in d20 is handled.

 In the page link that I give down below, you can even find guidelines for using HARP with a d20 rather than percentile (d100) dice. And on another website -- http://www.guildcompanion.com -- you can find an article I wrote for using HARP without levels, and an article by the author of one of the best liked HARP supplements (College of Magics) on using HARP without professions.

The point is, that HARP is made especially so that you can trade out things you do not like for things that you do.

Quote from: CyberzombieBut the game does have a lot of other features going for it that I do like.  I'm thinking about getting the full book just to see the full range of classes (whatever they're called in HARP).  The four in the book are interesting but don't give the full range of the system.

Well, check out http://www.harphq.com/webextras.htm for a bunch of official downloads for HARP, including the Character Creation Overview -- http://www.harphq.com/free_downloads/HARP_RevisedCharGenOverview.pdf -- which does include all of the professions.

Kind of an open secret, but a lot of the material missing from HARP Lite can be found on that Web Extras page in other downloads.... hehe...

Quote from: CyberzombieAll in all, I'd say it is a pretty damn cool replacement for MERP.

Thanks.... (now I have to hide until I can stop blushing....)

And don't forget about the d20 for HARP deal. If you purchase the soft cover HARP, and then send us $30 worth of products with the d20 logo on it (can be 3.0 or 3.5 - doesn't matter - they just have to be in good condition (i.e. no missing covers or pages torn out, etc.. as they are likely to be used as Game Day give-aways)) we give you back part of what you paid for it. Of course, you can send in the product first (or send in the product with a check for purchase (including shipping costs) along with note placing order when you send in the product). A number of different ways to handle it..