* once on your turn with a bow, you can make an additional attack. Both attacks suffer a -5 to hit.

-5 is 'more-or-less' equivalent to having disadvantage but I imagine they don't want the archer burdened with the condition of disadvantage to prevent future interplay with other rules that apply only on disadvantageous rolls. Does the penalty need to be smaller for it to provide equivalent statistical damage to a single shot? If it's already equal in that respect there should be no issue, the real star of the feet is the long range and ignoring cover.

Archers could also use this to interact with the environment in unique ways against targets where a -5 is not so big a deal. Like attempting to actuate a button on the other side of the room and cut a rope suspending and captured comrade simultaneously, or deal double damage to a nearby crystal.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;676994What's interesting is the degree to which randomly rolling six attributes and then assigning them to ability scores pretty much completely nullifies these advantages. At the link above, I discuss the fact that it still gets new players rolling the dice faster and that can be valuable. But that's a fairly narrow window of advantage.

I think this is correct.  If you roll 4d6 six times and assign the scores that really isn't any different than the elite array (15,14,13,12,10,8) of 3rd edition.  Except that some players get slightly better arrays than others.  

And that leads to the other design decision that started in 3rd edition that made rolling dice hard.  In OD&D, a +1 bonus was about the best you could get for having a high score (or at least this is what I infer from Swords and Wizardry).  Similarly, penalties were rather low.  

In B/X it was possible to get to +3 (on an 18) but that was about it.  Even in AD&D it was perfectly possible to play a magic user with a 14 intelligence and not really suffer massive penalties until very high levels.

By 3rd edition, all of the class features ran off your ability scores.  So a Fighter could not get the combat expertise feat without a 13 intelligence.  A wizard with an 18 INT would always have +2 on spell DCs (and more bonus spells) over a wizard with DC14.  A Paladin with an 18 CHA would always have better lay on hands abilities versus one with a 14 (in 1st and 2nd edition, there was no need to link the power of this class feature to ability scores).  

And do not get me started on constitution.  In previous editions, non-fighters had a very limited amount of bonus hit points from con (ranging from +1 to +3; in AD&D it was capped at +2 for example).  In 3rd edition a low con was very bad (hurting saves and hit points) and a high con could almost make up for the difference in hit dice.  A wizard with an 18 CON was nearly as formidable as a Fighter with 11.  

This dependence on ability scores to drive player power made a single set of dice rolls create fairly large gaps.  When it was also "arrange to taste" it turned into players being able to greatly minimize weakness.  

I have actually had the most fun (in more than a dozen groups over the years) in elite array d20 games.  It seemed to really improve the overall feel of the game.  I could get behind rolling dice in order, but only because it would help create the personality.

Quote from: Brad;677000Weak

Where is that Not a Fuck Given O-Meter when you need it?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;677006I'm curious to know why such aversion to rolling for stats, especially since classes don't require a high stat anymore.  Is it fear of having the chance for a low roll?  Is it hating the fact that another player might have better rolled stats than you?

Has nothing to do with other players.

It can restrict my choice of the type of PC I want to play. (In the versions I have played.) I am letting the dice decide if I am going to play a wizard, thief or fighter.

I'd prefer to make that choice myself.

Quote from: TristramEvans;677012Rolled stats have always been anathema to the min-maxers.

Yes! If a person wants more freedom of choice then they MUST be a min-maxer!

Accuse them of being a min-maxer! Put them on the defensive and control the argument!

Heaven forbid they have an opinion that disagrees with the love of randomly rolled stats!

I must be having all kinds of badwrongfun.

Quote from: Brad;677000Weak

It occurs to me that your avatar is highly appropriate.

JG

Quote from: Jaeger;677087Yes! If a person wants more freedom of choice then they MUST be a min-maxer

I'm sure there's a name for the logical fallacy you're committing there that's got your panties all in a bunch, but I can't be bothered to look it up.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;677034In reality.

Your reality and reality are two distinct things. The reality is that the feat and ability rules in the current packet are completely inept. Saying that you think they're OK shows a distinct lack of care and understanding. Therefore, you don't care about game balance. If you did care, you'd make the effort to understand what you're talking about.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;677034OK, look.  I think by now we have a clear picture of your playstyle, and it's the "put everyone in an arena gladiator style and refresh resources back to max after every battle."

What was that you were saying about strawmen?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;677034You've also shown an ignorance of the rules ("you can't get an 18") and when called on your mistakes, can only reply with arguments that people haven't actually made.

Only a moron would balance a game around random die rolls. The game is balanced around point-buy. The only reason random die rolling is even an option is because of whiny-bitches like you who insist that everything they did forty years ago is better.

An 18 cannot be gotten via point-buy. Is that better, princess?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;677034Congrats on that.  And to top the ridiculousness off, you have to audacity to accuse me of not understanding how things works.

That's because you don't.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;677034Sorry, I can't handle that level of irony in one day.  I have a feeling rpg.net would be a better site for you.

I'm perma-banned from there. And ENWorld. You're stuck with me until someone perma-bans me from here too. I give myself a month at best.

Quote from: Brad;677040Because players might not get to do exactly what they want.

Yeah, let's all force players to do stuff they don't want to do!

FUN!

Quote from: Brad;677040I think this is more a problem with entitlement than anything else.

Actually it's more about system balance but that doesn't seem to be something that grognards care about. At least not until it's something they can bitch about because the lack of it is ruining their games and destroying their childhoods.

Quote from: Brad;677040When we played Mentzer...

What a surprise.

Quote from: Brad;677040In the end, the piece itself is essentially irrelevant to the gaming experience if you're just trying to have a good time. People who look at rpgs as something other than a game will most likely disagree.

OMG! I've been having badwrongfun for 25 years! FUCK! ME!

Please teach me how to have fun the right way?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;677041Yeah, but as I mentioned, you don't have attribute requirements in recent versions.  Certainly not in Next.  So regardless of method, you can still play whatever class you want.

Yah, and I'm the one who doesn't understand system design. Holy shit man, please stop being ignorant. It pains me to witness it. Like the retarded kid banging his head against a brick wall until his skull is a bloody mush.

Go play Rath.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;677044It's worked for decades.  I guess I'm secure enough in myself that I don't get my panties in a wad if another character has a higher stat.  After more than 30 years, it really hasn't had that much of an impact to the gaming experience.

Annnnnnnnnd here it is.

Seriously, why are you even posting in a thread about DDN? You obviously don't want to play it unless it's a grognard's wetdream. There's this thing. It's called progress. You are the minority. Go back to your nursing home.

I honestly think that people like you only have an interest in DDN because you can't find anyone willing to play BECMI. Either that or you get off on trolling people.

Game balance is an illusion insecure players tell themselves to pretend that the DM can't kill them at any moment and that they're just as much a special snowflake as everyone else at the table

Just like " character optimization" is an illusion min- maxers tell others to pretend that the inane numbers-based self-flagellation they engage in is in anyway related to role-playing.

Quote from: TristramEvans;677114Game balance is an illusion insecure players tell themselves to pretend that the DM can't kill them at any moment and that they're just as much a special snowflake as everyone else at the table

Just like " character optimization" is an illusion min- maxers tell others to pretend that the inane numbers-based self-flagellation they engage in is in anyway related to role-playing.

Yes, yes, we're all mere mortals that are blessed to glow in your almighty DM'ing presence and have no right to expect our characters to enable us to do anything other than be slaughtered in your name. And of course, anyone who optimises a character has no concept or understanding of roleplaying because roleplaying requires pain, suffering, boredom and frustration. Fun is anathema to a real roleplayer.

Funny how I always tend to get roleplaying XP bonuses at any game I play at. I must've optimised for it.

Yep. Nope. And giggling at the unintentional irony. In that order.

Quote from: The_Rooster;677027It's always the people who don't understand system mechanics who decry new systems and cling to the old ones. Things were better in my day, grump, grump, hurumph.

Perhaps there are people who still know how to have fun with other people regardless of the system mechanics. What a concept!

Also: Don't be so proud of this mechanically balanced terror you have instituted. The power to create special snowflakes is nothing compared to the power of fun.

Quote from: The_Rooster;677108Yah, and I'm the one who doesn't understand system design. Holy shit man, please stop being ignorant. It pains me to witness it. Like the retarded kid banging his head against a brick wall until his skull is a bloody mush.

Playing the class you want to play isn't good enough. I get it. You were the kid that had to get a present at other kid's birthday parties.

Quote from: The_Rooster;677108Annnnnnnnnd here it is.

Seriously, why are you even posting in a thread about DDN? You obviously don't want to play it unless it's a grognard's wetdream. There's this thing. It's called progress. You are the minority. Go back to your nursing home.

I honestly think that people like you only have an interest in DDN because you can't find anyone willing to play BECMI. Either that or you get off on trolling people.

Progress.  LOL!!

You still seem to be ignorant of the fact that games are not technology. That level of stupid borders on pitiful.

I'm quite liking this new playtest packet. I've not been impressed with the last 6 months or so, but this seems to have cut out a lot that I didn't like.

I don't like the new character sheet design. It's all over the place, like a new version of Windows.

Quote from: The_Rooster;677108Yeah, let's all force players to do stuff they don't want to do!

FUN!

Because that's exactly what I said. When you play a GAME, you don't always get to do exactly what you want to do. Any game. Miguel Cabrera gets three strikes, not four, no matter how much he believes it'd make hitting more enjoyable. No one is "forcing" you to do anything; when you roll dice, a random element, call it chaos if you want, dictates your options.

This has nothing to do with randomly rolled abilities whatsoever. It's a fundamental problem with modern gamers treating D&D like it's some fucking exercise in improvisational theater. Hey, guess what: we didn't always roll 3D6 down the line! Amazing! Sometimes we'd just arbitrarily assign attributes! But I can honestly say this...the characters created organically were always the best. If you want to convince yourself that you must play a specific type of character, and limit your options to one particular role, that's fine with me. But thinking random rolls somehow detract from the game is just complete bullshit.

Quote from: Orpheo;677123I don't like the new character sheet design. It's all over the place, like a new version of Windows.

I agree, it's awful. But I do appreciate the fact that they at least tried to make a more "pretty" character sheet for this package, even if, IMHO, they failed. I don't think this is the final design for it or anything.

Also, I read the playtest files a little bit more, and I like how spellcasting works. You still have to memorize a certain number of spells per day, but you have a lot of freedom while casting them.


[edit]
I love the Path of the Gladiator. I'd totally play a Fighter with it.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;677121Also: Don't be so proud of this mechanically balanced terror you have instituted. The power to create special snowflakes is nothing compared to the power of fun.

The irony here is that it's imbalance that creates the special snowflakes and balance that prevents them. But then, understanding that requires an understanding of system mechanics.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;677121You still seem to be ignorant of the fact that games are not technology. That level of stupid borders on pitiful.

Right, of course, nothing can ever compare to the original. Gygax was God and there can be only one God. Nobody can ever improve on what he did, therefore there is never any progress in system design.

Good to know.

Quote from: Brad;677133No one is "forcing" you to do anything; when you roll dice, a random element, call it chaos if you want, dictates your options.

Uhuh.