Quote from: Spinachcat;746115Are you Jerry Lawler or Andy Kaufman?

Go for Lawler since I like the image of Latka DMing Carcosa.

I dunno, Pundit doesn't make enough shitty jokes and Diva-related catcalls to be Jerry Lawler.

Quote from: Kellri;746145If you're a parent, and you found out your kid's tutor was casually dismissing criticism of graphic portrayals of child rape and murder in his published hobby supplement on youtube would you shrug it off as no-big deal or would you feel like it was time to, AT THE VERY LEAST, find a new tutor?

Nope, because I have some idea of the context of those ideas and the sources he drew from. However I WOULD try to keep my kids away from folks who were trying to freak them out with scare-tactics and paranoia.

So since it's clearly approval he's looking for and not really getting it for his work: isn't this just a Fantasy Heartbreaker?

I mean I don't really give too much a flying fuck if ONE person doesn't care about my published material. But you know, it's not like everyone is bombing on him. I mean I honestly don't have an opinion other than going by your review Pundit... I can honestly say if I bought some material and it was like you said (and I have no reason to believe it isn't) I'd be a little pissed.

The whole "You don't get it." speech is ultimately pointless. Of course you don't get "it". But what "it" actually is - happens to be subjective. No one person owns the "feel" of OSR. All people can do is in any kind of "genre-work" is try and obey enough of the tropes to give it a feel of authenticity.

Reading your review, taken at face value, it appears maybe he thinks the crappy aspects of 70's-style RPG's is one of those tropes but he doesn't really see it that way?

Whatever... I'm actually one of those people he sneers at. I'm not down with Olde Schoole RPG's and I've played since that era. He needs to lighten-the-fuck up. Not everyone is going to like your tea. Get over it. Or get out of the business.

Quote from: Kellri;746145Forget about the crappy random monsters and crypto-nonsensical writing for a moment and watch this. If you're a parent, and you found out your kid's tutor was casually dismissing criticism of graphic portrayals of child rape and murder in his published hobby supplement on youtube would you shrug it off as no-big deal or would you feel like it was time to, AT THE VERY LEAST, find a new tutor?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsJo4Ht9ITg

Well yeah, this is why I wouldn't actually buy & run his stuff with my six year old.

Quote from: J Arcane;746129It's an academic insult, but it's definitely meant to be one.

Agreed, but there's a stink of faux-outrage on both sides that makes me wonder about the validity of their BATTLE TO THE DEATH!!!

Quote from: Kellri;746145would you shrug it off as no-big deal or would you feel like it was time to, AT THE VERY LEAST, find a new tutor?

Is he a good tutor? If so, those aren't easily replaceable. If he isn't a good tutor, that's enough reason to toss him.

Quote from: tenbones;746287Reading your review, taken at face value, it appears maybe he thinks the crappy aspects of 70's-style RPG's is one of those tropes but he doesn't really see it that way?

That's about right, except I disagree about the "crappy" aspect. I like lots of the early "less fleshed out" RPG offerings and I do believe there exists a niche market today for gamers who like that style of product. But I fully agree that to denigrate gamers who don't share your tastes (whatever they may be) is lame with lame sauce.

Quote from: The Butcher;746141:rotfl:



It would be best if both sides refrained from ad hominem attacks of this type, because fundamentally this is what their exchange looks like:

Pundit: "This book sucks and the author is a Swine."
McKinney: "Pundit doesn't get it because he's a Dragonlance fan."

This is dumb and uninformative. But at least it spawned a bit of meaningful debate on game-table-useful stuff, that might have been even better without the taint of elf-pretend nerds throwing elf-pretend insults at each other.

Actually, I went into considerate and accurate detail as to why the book itself is bad.  Its nothing to do with him being a swine, its everything to do with him having phoned in a pathetic sandbox setting that's really badly done.

Also, for the record, Isle of the Unknown has no graphically troublesome elements, unlike Carcosa. You could theoretically run this adventure with your 6-year old; I'd almost say its written at that level of entertainment, in fact.  If your kid likes a game of pointlessly going from place to place fighting odd monsters that serve no purpose and make no sense, this is fine.

RPGPundit

The thing is, you should really avoid vitriolic statements in a review.

For instance

QuoteBut even in my most pathetic newbie crimes-against-nature I at least tried to create varied terrain, interesting kingdoms and populations, and some coherence, however minimal.

QuoteIts a menagerie of crap, and I'm sure its meant to be "weird fantasy" but I'd put it closer to "stupid fantasy".  

QuoteThere are other notable, and equally stupid, features.

and finally

QuoteI mean seriously, what the fuck has this McKinney guy have on Raggi?! What level of incriminating pictures does he possibly have that would compel Raggi to sell this drivel, and at such a high production value?

None of that should be in a review. Personal attacks and such just make you look bad and detract from a review that is largely correct.

I can understand the desire to, I used to have to review mobile games. Most of them were really, really awful and I didn't enjoy playing them, much less writing about them.  But when someone spends dozens, maybe hundreds of hours working on something, they at least deserve some courtesy.

I thought the review was a fun read. Geoffrey should be happy people are now talking about IotU again. I would venture to say it had mostly been forgotten at this point.

Quote from: JeremyR;746303The thing is, you should really avoid vitriolic statements in a review.

None of that should be in a review. Personal attacks and such just make you look bad and detract from a review that is largely correct.

I can understand the desire to, I used to have to review mobile games. Most of them were really, really awful and I didn't enjoy playing them, much less writing about them.  But when someone spends dozens, maybe hundreds of hours working on something, they at least deserve some courtesy.

No, most of that is fine, as long as he goes on to explain WHY. Calling Geoffrey stupid is different than calling his writing stupid ... and then explaining why.

Quote from: Chainsaw;746324I thought the review was a fun read. Geoffrey should be happy people are now talking about IotU again. I would venture to say it had mostly been forgotten at this point.

The only real outcome of a bad review of an old product is increased sales of that product.

I see this IotU as an example of what not to do with a product. A message to all those out there who have their pet projects who think they are but moments away from the big time.

Haven't read IotU, just read this review and the comments about it but it sounds pretty dreadful. As a potential buyer I would want far more for my money. Let's face it, it's not difficult to sketch out a landscape and stock it up with random monsters. The creator should provide something I can't do: some new idea of the why and wherefores. In the case of IotU: Why are those statues scattered about? Who made them? Why are the flying skunk-men and frog guys present? What are their goals? How do they coexist with what's around them? Does the Flower Girl have any larger purpose or plans?

I'm not saying it has to be ready-to-play with every hex lovingly detailed. But there should be more than a few scant sentences with meaningless critters.

About ten years ago I was going to join a game group in my area. The GM had his own world he was proud of. He showed me a folder he had and said it was "90% complete", that in a couple months he would hand it over to a publisher and it was destined to be a big hit. I looked it over. It was a crudely drawn map of half a continent, maybe 8 pages of history and a listing of about 30 gods in a generic pantheon. I told him square: this isn't 90% complete, it's not 10% complete and is useless in its current form. He was furious at me and threw me out of his apartment. I didn't join that group.

When I think about that incident I shake my head and wonder about how that guy could have been so delusional. Then I read Pundit's review of IotU and realize that for some people that meager folder was indeed 90% complete and soon to be a worthy product to buy. I'm guessing those people are very few however.

To me, old '70s games are not what I'd categorize as sandbox games. They're more like randomly generated games. Sandbox games typically have consistency, while randomly generated games never make any sense. "Why are there 1D6 minotaurs locked in this small confined room with 1D6 silver spoons, etc?"

Quote from: bryce0lynch;746327No, most of that is fine, as long as he goes on to explain WHY. Calling Geoffrey stupid is different than calling his writing stupid ... and then explaining why.

Satori.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;746369To me, old '70s games are not what I'd categorize as sandbox games. They're more like randomly generated games. Sandbox games typically have consistency, while randomly generated games never make any sense. "Why are there 1D6 minotaurs locked in this small confined room with 1D6 silver spoons, etc?"

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Quote from: JeremyR;746303The thing is, you should really avoid vitriolic statements in a review.

No, not really. Vitriolic statements are part of the Pundit package.  Many people will choose to read my reviews over someone else's because they know that besides the informative part, they'll get to see me say something outrageous.  

In other words, I don't think reviews need to be boring.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;746369To me, old '70s games are not what I'd categorize as sandbox games. They're more like randomly generated games. Sandbox games typically have consistency, while randomly generated games never make any sense. "Why are there 1D6 minotaurs locked in this small confined room with 1D6 silver spoons, etc?"

Calling this "70s games" is disingenuous.  The 70s produced the Wilderlands books, and Tekumel, among others.  There were rich and fascinating sandbox settings in this time period.    And there were plenty of 'bare bones' stuff that was still set up in a way to act as huge imagination-fuel for a GM.  
Isle is not that. Its only a sad defense to claim that he's hearkening back to those days, that the poor quality of his product is really just an homage to a "70s style". It isn't. Its just bad writing.

If you want to see a book that's really an "homage" to that style, check out Rob Conley's "Majestic Wilderlands".  It is by no means a complete setting in the sense of what we saw in later years, but within that book you get everything you need to MAKE a complete and coherent environment. The "implicit setting" makes sense.