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Author Topic: "...so tell me what that looks like"  (Read 4224 times)

robh

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Re: "...so tell me what that looks like"
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2021, 07:23:25 AM »
....... since zero hp was DEAD......

And so it was, so it is and so it always shall be.  :)


Anon Adderlan

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Re: "...so tell me what that looks like"
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2021, 08:14:23 AM »
Quote
The Czege Principle is an idea in role-playing game theory that it isn't fun for a single player to control both a character's adversity and the resolution of that adversity. The principle is named after Paul Czege, based on a comment he made to Vincent Baker at The Forge after playtesting one of Baker's games.

This comes from one of the de facto founders of #Storygaming while talking with another.

I've found the trick is while we're always creating story, it only breaks the illusion if we're made conscious of it, which sadly is exactly what most modern #Storygames do.

Zalman

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Re: "...so tell me what that looks like"
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2021, 11:15:14 AM »
Actually descriptive deaths goes way back. Garry would do it I believe. Though sparingly. Players are free to describe their characters final moments however.

There's a world of difference between a player describing their own character's death and a player describing their adversary's death.
Old School? Back in my day we just called it "School."

robh

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Re: "...so tell me what that looks like"
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2021, 11:31:15 AM »
Actually descriptive deaths goes way back. Garry would do it I believe. Though sparingly. Players are free to describe their characters final moments however.

There's a world of difference between a player describing their own character's death and a player describing their adversary's death.

Of course, as GMs are not allowed to kill characters anymore that can't happen so presumably it has to be the adversary  >:(

HappyDaze

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Re: "...so tell me what that looks like"
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2021, 11:50:37 AM »
Actually descriptive deaths goes way back. Garry would do it I believe. Though sparingly. Players are free to describe their characters final moments however.

There's a world of difference between a player describing their own character's death and a player describing their adversary's death.
Fair is fair; if a player gets to narrate the NPC deaths they inflict with their PCs, the GM gets to do the same when NPCs kill a PC.

S'mon

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Re: "...so tell me what that looks like"
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2021, 11:57:37 AM »
Fair is fair; if a player gets to narrate the NPC deaths they inflict with their PCs, the GM gets to do the same when NPCs kill a PC.

That's certainly how I do it.

Svenhelgrim

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Re: "...so tell me what that looks like"
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2021, 01:35:03 PM »
Hmmm... I usually verbosely describe a kill in my games.  I will have to ask my players if it is too much.

Visitor Q

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Re: "...so tell me what that looks like"
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2021, 07:01:27 PM »
Actually descriptive deaths goes way back. Garry would do it I believe. Though sparingly. Players are free to describe their characters final moments however.

There's a world of difference between a player describing their own character's death and a player describing their adversary's death.
Fair is fair; if a player gets to narrate the NPC deaths they inflict with their PCs, the GM gets to do the same when NPCs kill a PC.

That's an interesting point. I do occasionally allow players to describe how an NPC has been dispatched. But it occurs to me that I've always given the description for the PCs deaths, they've never had input. I think it's better that way.

Tantavalist

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Re: "...so tell me what that looks like"
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2021, 08:15:50 PM »
I narrate the outcome of a PC's actions by default. But if a player has a sudden inspiration for how they want things to work out then they're free to speak up and suggest it. I'll usually accept their version of events unless it gives them too big an advantage or breaks the narrative somehow. This doesn't actually happen too often- not even in every session. My experience of trying out games where players have more narrative agency is that when it's time for them to add something they just sit there in silence and wait for me to take up the narration as per usual.

I suspect that it's all down to the differences in groups rather than any hard and fast rule. Some groups will love this style of play and hate to do it Old School, and vice versa. It works so well for Matt Mercer because he's got a table full of the kind of players that thrive on this sort of thing, rather than purely being GM talent.

As good a show as Mercer and other internet GMs can put on... Just once? I'd like to see them put up a video of them GMing a session for the sort of group that the rest of us GMs have to run games for rather than a hand-picked dream team like they usually have. A lot of younger people are coming into the hobby thinking that Critical Role is how games work by default when Knights of the Dinner Table is far closer to reality.

theOutlander

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Re: "...so tell me what that looks like"
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2021, 06:19:22 PM »
Few years ago, at the birth of CR, I did see Mercer doing it and I copied him. It was a refresher, not gonna lie.
But nowadays it's both mandatory (as in "Mercer does it, so you should too") and players are kinda reluctant to describe every kill themselves. Because of the dichotomy I ditched the schtick alltogether and went back to narrating everything myself. Nothing changed for the worse.

Libramarian

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Re: "...so tell me what that looks like"
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2021, 07:02:42 PM »
I don't mind the players describing their critical hits, but surely the goal should be to establish this pattern quickly and minimize occurrences of the GM telling other people to speak now.

mAcular Chaotic

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Re: "...so tell me what that looks like"
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2021, 08:34:37 PM »
On the topic of letting players narrate their PCs deaths, or even asking for final words, in my experience that doesn't work out very well.

The player is still in too much shock, and perhaps denial, to give a good description.

You'll usually get something like...

GM: What are your last words? How does your character die?
Player: Eh. They die.
GM: ... okay.

So it's better for the GM to just go ahead and handle it, so you can give the character a suitably dramatic sendoff.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.

Innocent Smith

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Re: "...so tell me what that looks like"
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2021, 05:35:56 AM »
The time for the player to make input is when he announces his action, not after resolution.  If the player says, "I take his head off with my sword, or at least try to" and the dice decree a kill, then I say "His head makes a gentle arc, bounces twice, and rolls to your feet, a slightly surprised look on his face."  If the player says "I attack" and the dice are favorably disposed, the I just say "Okay, he's down," or "You take him in the chest and he folds."  The "Mercer" things you're describing, or whatever it is, is just weird.


...after a few more moments of thought this is just another application of "Players control their character, GMs control the rest of the world."  If you're giving players narrative control of the world, then you're starting to move out of classic RPGs and into something else.

The hobby develops. Otherwise we'd all still be playing Chainmail. Keep what you like, discard the rest. As a GM the only question that need concern you is did you and your players have fun?
Obviously things can develop with time, and RPGs can become more refined as we better understand the concept. But I would say that is certainly not the only concern.

Other concerns are:
  • How much fun did everyone have?
  • How likely are people going to want to keep playing this campaign?
  • How likely are they going to want to keep playing this game system?
  • How invested are they in the game world and the story?
  • How much fondness and nostalgia will they have about this campaign after it's over?

You can have plenty of fun in a one-shot where you're level 20 and you kill thousands of orcs. No one would say that's a good way to run a normal game, just like no one would say the happiness of a night of hookers and blow has anything to do with a life full of joy.

Innocent Smith

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Re: "...so tell me what that looks like"
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2021, 05:45:17 AM »
Few years ago, at the birth of CR, I did see Mercer doing it and I copied him. It was a refresher, not gonna lie.
But nowadays it's both mandatory (as in "Mercer does it, so you should too") and players are kinda reluctant to describe every kill themselves. Because of the dichotomy I ditched the schtick alltogether and went back to narrating everything myself. Nothing changed for the worse.
The whole discussion about the Mercer effect is muddied by the silly assumption that people just choose a random way to play RPGs and stick with it. All of us veteran roleplayers have had to learn how to play, and are still learning how to play better. The reason we don't play like him is because we all tried it, or something like it, at some point and found it wanting. It's more of a problem for new players and casual players that haven't had time to figure this stuff out, and the concern is more about making sure they stick around long enough to figure it out.

Godsmonkey

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Re: "...so tell me what that looks like"
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2021, 07:35:26 AM »
I have allowed players to describe some kill shots for decades. My rule of thumb is the kill has to be an important or particularly tough opponent, and the final blow either comes after a LONG tough battle, or a crit/massive damage roll. Even then it's usually only 1 time per player and not every session.

Further, if a player doesnt show as much interest in describing the kill shot, I dont ask them to do it, or ask far less often. sometimes those players will decline an offer, and I narrate, on occasion a player asks to describe the action on a dramatic kill, so I allow it.

My players seem to enjoy the way we do it, so that's good enough for me.