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Author Topic: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...  (Read 6153 times)

Jaeger

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Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2021, 07:38:44 PM »
...
I understand, I also have moments of love and hate with this system. As I said earlier, it becomes retarded when the dice keeps on rolling, I'm certain upgrading a skill to d6 from d4 is a downgrade till you reach d8, and sometimes it feels like a washed down version of the haydays of WEG; TORG and D6. But that's just an old grog's opinion.

I completely bounced off of the die mechanic and wounding mechanic when I played.

It literally has a glaring in-your-face design flaw in the die mechanic.

I had some SW apologist explain to me on another forum that it's not a big deal because Bennies blah, blah, blah...

Yeah, so your meta mechanic isn't there so much as a bonus to make PC's more heroic as it is to smooth out your whacked ass die and wounding mechanics...

But lots of people seem to like it anyway.



Add FFG to the hit-list suicide-list :'(


FFG doomed themselves with their specialty dice.

They were focused on cashing in on certain IP.

They made a WHFRP and Star Wars games that had overly fiddly rules, with overly fiddly dice.

The money train ended when their licenses ended.

Nobody gave a fuck about their whacked ass specialty die mechanic.

The same thing will happen with legend of the 5 rings. A game that they easily could have used normal dice on. But nooooo....



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Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2021, 10:25:13 PM »
Deadlands never portrayed the CSA surviving the war so much as the war being put on indefinite hold because literal Hell had been unleashed on the southwest.  That's what irks me about the revised Deadlands timeline, not that the Confederacy would lose, because pretty obviously the Union had the upper hand from day one, but that they'd be stupid enough to decide to pick another fight when there were demons crawling all over the place.  Especially because in the original Deadlands timeline they'd already abolished slavery, so what even was left to make them decide to do a suicide attack on DC?

In reality, the CSA had already abolished the importation of new slaves before it fell, I have no idea whether as a legitimate endeavor to wean their industries off of slave labor or as a PR ploy to try to make nice with foreign powers.  But even if it had survived as an independent country, I can't imagine slavery having held out there for much longer.  The tide was already turned against it.  Even without importing new slaves there was more than enough of a slave population to sustain itself indefinitely, but financial pressure from other countries and general public opinion would've put an end to it eventually.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2021, 12:59:15 AM »
The maths behind SW is stronger then people give it credit for.

A d6 only feels worse then a d4. It isn’t. It succeeds and raises more on avarage, and results in less critical failures.

I really wonder why anybody thinks otherwise in the age of anydice.

Edit:
And vampires and monsters is OK, but an alternate reality nicer confederacy cannot be even allowed to be theoretically entertained.
Thats messed up.

This is based on intellectual cowardice.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2021, 01:00:52 AM by Shrieking Banshee »

tenbones

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Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2021, 02:27:23 AM »

I just have to get this out of the way first:  Savage Worlds Fucking Sucks.

I understand, I also have moments of love and hate with this system. As I said earlier, it becomes retarded when the dice keeps on rolling, I'm certain upgrading a skill to d6 from d4 is a downgrade till you reach d8, and sometimes it feels like a washed down version of the haydays of WEG; TORG and D6. But that's just an old grog's opinion.



It's a shame that WoD and Shadowrun mismanaged themselves into has-been status. And that GW never took WHFRP seriously.


Add FFG to the hit-list suicide-list :'(

These are not my quotes. Please fix your post.

tenbones

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Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2021, 02:54:57 AM »
Deadlands is supposed to be horror game set during the latter part of the Civil War. It's not a treatise or some authoritarian scholarly work of alt-History. No the CSA weren't all evil bastards. They were people. Everyone on this forum generally understands this. No one around here is saying otherwise. Why is this even a discussion point on a Savage Worlds Pathfinder thread?

It's a game people, not a purity test.

Let's save the attacks for those that really deserve it, shall we? And raise the bar a little higher. Otherwise we're never getting any good game-discussion. We're become "them" by acting according to their standards and actions. We're "us" by choice, so we get to define ourselves a little more sensibly.

Savage Worlds Maths - the only real math discrepancy is between d6 and d8 where because of the exploding dice there is a slight chance that a d6 can actually be better over time.

There is a fantastically easy method to fix this. Fudge Dice. Adding 2 Fudge dice to your rolls that smooths out the curve.

From Zadmar - with no Fudge dice.


With One Fudge Die


With Two Fudge Dice


I let my players just choose if they wanna add Fudge dice to their roll.

As for the exploding dice - yep, that's part of the game. That's why it's great for pulp and cinematic adventures. You can make someone's head explode with throwing a thumbtack at them. Naturally there are rules you can tune the game up or down with to prevent such crazy shit. In Savage Pathfinder for example one of the setting rules is that you can't do more 4 Wounds in a single attack.

If you want it grittier - you can simply remove this rule. If you want it Grimdark you can make it so that every wound taken you can make your PC's roll on the Injury Table... which is nasty shit.

The beauty of Savage Worlds is it is *TRIVIALLY* easy to tune up or down however you prefer it to get the tone and feel you want in your game.

If you like D&D-style Bullet-Sponginess - running Savage Pathfinder with its bitch-ass 4-Wound Maximum rule will do your just fine. Since Size increases Wound Levels for Monsters... you'll get all the Bullet-Sponge you can handle. Me? I like my meat red. Fuck that cap. And if I'm running Conan-style brutal-ass mode you're rolling on the Injury Table and pray you don't Snake-Eyes (you get castrated).


tenbones

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Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2021, 03:18:36 AM »

I completely bounced off of the die mechanic and wounding mechanic when I played.

It literally has a glaring in-your-face design flaw in the die mechanic.

It's literally the difference of less than a couple of percent at two target numbers. This is less than the deviation of +1 on any given D&D d20 roll. Easily fixed (if it matters that much).

Yeah, so your meta mechanic isn't there so much as a bonus to make PC's more heroic as it is to smooth out your whacked ass die and wounding mechanics...

But lots of people seem to like it anyway.

I'm not trying to convince you to give it another try (though I think you should) - I'm just addressing some of your claims. The meta-mechanic (Bennies) aren't there to smooth out the die and wound mechanics.

1) The Die mechanic stands on its own. A deviation 1.5% in very specific circumstances at most, is inconsequential in pretty much any RPG I can imagine. And I play lots of games from d20, to d6 to d100. That difference is less than most circumstantial bonuses or penalties that a GM can give on any roll. And there is a simple solution - Fudge dice.

2) The Wound mechanics exist as a direct abstraction to the fact you should be *avoiding* damage. Unlike D&D which oddly abstracts Armor as making you harder to hit, vs. absorbing damage, it splits the difference with the abstraction of HP. Savage Worlds gives characters a solid avoidance derived stat based on their skill in melee. Armor absorbs damage and goes directly to the character's Toughness rating which if an attacker can bypass that - you'll take actual damage. People are frail when it comes to life-and-death combat, as I'm sure you know. The abstraction of Savage Worlds combat is both cinematic and kinetic. If you take damage - you're *taking it squarely in the ass* - there is no HP Bullet Sponge total for being 10th level when the Thief backstabs you. Your only recourse is to Soak it, or take it. Soaking it requires a Benny. It's a hail-mary, almost a Saving Throw if you will. It's not a flaw in the mechanics. It makes combat more viceral than trading HP-meter losses like in a Streetfighter game.

3) Having said all this - there are iterations of D&D d20 that have had ALL of these features in one form or another - Fantasy Craft, Star Wars d20, and Mutants and Masterminds off the top of my head. All of which I think are some of the better renditions of d20. Too bad 5e didn't go that route.


FFG doomed themselves with their specialty dice.

They were focused on cashing in on certain IP.

They made a WHFRP and Star Wars games that had overly fiddly rules, with overly fiddly dice.

The money train ended when their licenses ended.

They still have the license. And while I highly disliked their WHFRP, I came to love their Star Wars games despite my own well documented skepticism on this forum... along with my shock at how much I ended up liking it, so much so I own the entirety of all three lines which sit solidly on my shelves next to my WEG d6 books.

The dice... yes they're a total fucking gimmick. But oddly, they clicked for my group. You can play with normal dice, it's just a pain in the ass to convert unless you get used to it. We're all professionals with lots of disposable income... we caved and bought the dice, it made for better gaming. Fuck that app.

While they still have the license (Asmodee in France) - they *say* they're going to do more content. I honestly don't care if they do more. Simply because there is no real need. They have pretty much captured the entirety of the Star Wars universe between all three lines. if they shut it down tonight, it wouldn't matter to me.

Nobody gave a fuck about their whacked ass specialty die mechanic.

The same thing will happen with legend of the 5 rings. A game that they easily could have used normal dice on. But nooooo....

Despite my extreme pleasure running their Star Wars game, I can only go so far. I fully admit the reasons why, despite me loving their Star Wars game, I never got into Lot5R is precisely because I didn't want to do the dice-gimmick. Once is enough for me. And their Star Wars stuff is pure meat-and-potatoes, no SJR fuckery, pretty damn good adventures (which is a non-thing for me since I do my own content).

But again, it's purely my opinion.

234ne

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Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2021, 03:22:36 AM »

I just have to get this out of the way first:  Savage Worlds Fucking Sucks.

I understand, I also have moments of love and hate with this system. As I said earlier, it becomes retarded when the dice keeps on rolling, I'm certain upgrading a skill to d6 from d4 is a downgrade till you reach d8, and sometimes it feels like a washed down version of the haydays of WEG; TORG and D6. But that's just an old grog's opinion.



It's a shame that WoD and Shadowrun mismanaged themselves into has-been status. And that GW never took WHFRP seriously.


Add FFG to the hit-list suicide-list :'(

These are not my quotes. Please fix your post.

Whoops sorry mate.
Edit: Fixed it on this post too.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2021, 03:29:55 AM by 234ne »

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2021, 03:27:26 AM »
Savage Worlds Maths - the only real math discrepancy is between d6 and d8 where because of the exploding dice there is a slight chance that a d6 can actually be better over time.
The very specific disperancy is a 1.4% chance less likely to ace once....Thats it. A d8 still has a higher chance of regular success, and less likely to critically fail (that really bad thing you can't roll out of with a benny). A d8 still has a higher chance of acing twice then a d6.

Thats against a target number of 4 only. With any sort of penalty (which is immensly common), the advantage immediatly goes back to the d8.
And your right the d6 has a slight (less then 2%) disadvantage against a target number of 6 compared to a d4. Still aces more, and crit fails less.


tenbones

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Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2021, 03:32:32 AM »
Savage Worlds Maths - the only real math discrepancy is between d6 and d8 where because of the exploding dice there is a slight chance that a d6 can actually be better over time.
The very specific disperancy is a 1.4% chance less likely to ace once....Thats it. A d8 still has a higher chance of regular success, and less likely to critically fail (that really bad thing you can't roll out of with a benny). A d8 still has a higher chance of acing twice then a d6.

Thats against a target number of 4 only. With any sort of penalty (which is immensly common), the advantage immediatly goes back to the d8.
And your right the d6 has a slight (less then 2%) disadvantage against a target number of 6 compared to a d4. Still aces more, and crit fails less.

I don't wanna come off like I'm attacking Jaeger (or anyone else) that is concerned with the Math. It's INSANELY small, and I know the abstractions of D&D are far worse simply by dint of the loosey-goosey use of Advantage. It's *fine*. Yet I have my own players who have come to love Savage Worlds, also be concerned with the d6 vs d8 issue simply because we've seen those crazy rolls which while statistically had nothing to do with the real issue. It appears that way most because it most happens due to the fact that d6 and d8s are rolled more typically over the procession of a campaign.

the Fudge Dice really soothed the irritation that existed in everyone's head. Plus they love the fact they get to roll more dice - since it makes them feel like they're padding their chances more... (even though they're not).

It's all headgames, baby.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2021, 03:53:17 AM »
the Fudge Dice
What are fudge dice?

Quote
It's all headgames, baby.
I think how something FEELS is also important to a game experience. I feel advantage/ disadvantage is a mediocre mechanic (I find that it does WAY too much work in D&D 5e, its ludicrist that its treated as this massive mathmatic marvel), but it feels nice.

Pat

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Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2021, 08:05:24 AM »
the Fudge Dice
What are fudge dice?

d6's marked +, +, (blank), (blank), -, -. Which translates into equal chances of 1, 0, and -1.

Steffan O'Sullivan came up with them because he wanted a smoother bell curve. Fudge uses 4dF as its core mechanic.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2021, 08:58:50 AM »
d6's marked +, +, (blank), (blank), -, -. Which translates into equal chances of 1, 0, and -1.

Steffan O'Sullivan came up with them because he wanted a smoother bell curve. Fudge uses 4dF as its core mechanic.

I know about those (D3s effectively), but how do they translate into the charts that tenbones put up?

HappyDaze

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Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2021, 09:23:28 AM »
d6's marked +, +, (blank), (blank), -, -. Which translates into equal chances of 1, 0, and -1.

Steffan O'Sullivan came up with them because he wanted a smoother bell curve. Fudge uses 4dF as its core mechanic.

I know about those (D3s effectively), but how do they translate into the charts that tenbones put up?
I too am curious to know how dice that have a 0 average result will adjust the probabilities of the results of the other dice. Are the chances of getting a 20 on 1d20 + 2dF any different than getting a 20 on just 1d20?

oggsmash

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Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2021, 10:36:59 AM »
  I will be picking up all the books I think, the bestiary alone looks very good from that table of contents.  Probably never use the setting, but I am a Completion freak.  Now, if someone would be nice enough to make a Rappan Athuk version for SW Pathfinder, and I can finally run that damned mega dungeon.  Though a simple bestiary, and otherwise full conversion version of the game would make me running the pathfinder RA conversion much easier.

   The stuff with CSA when I first heard about it did raise my eyebrows.  Once I looked into it, I figured Shane has made (IMO) a lot of good calls, so removing something that can only cause him grief did not bother me.  I have enjoyed SW Rifts and have run a few sessions of fantasy with SW.  I am keen to give my Conan or Fallout (well sort of, it turns out the "earth" of fallout is a death world in 40k) campaign a conversion ( I have one gamer who we get to explain GURPS to every session.  I start to feel bad for him when my 10 year old is explaining the rules to him, as a grown man.  Oddly he has full grasp of SW and D&D and even Mutant Epoch, which puzzles me) and see how it works out. 

   

oggsmash

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Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2021, 10:48:22 AM »
...
I understand, I also have moments of love and hate with this system. As I said earlier, it becomes retarded when the dice keeps on rolling, I'm certain upgrading a skill to d6 from d4 is a downgrade till you reach d8, and sometimes it feels like a washed down version of the haydays of WEG; TORG and D6. But that's just an old grog's opinion.

I completely bounced off of the die mechanic and wounding mechanic when I played.

It literally has a glaring in-your-face design flaw in the die mechanic.

I had some SW apologist explain to me on another forum that it's not a big deal because Bennies blah, blah, blah...

Yeah, so your meta mechanic isn't there so much as a bonus to make PC's more heroic as it is to smooth out your whacked ass die and wounding mechanics...

But lots of people seem to like it anyway.



Add FFG to the hit-list suicide-list :'(


FFG doomed themselves with their specialty dice.

They were focused on cashing in on certain IP.

They made a WHFRP and Star Wars games that had overly fiddly rules, with overly fiddly dice.

The money train ended when their licenses ended.

Nobody gave a fuck about their whacked ass specialty die mechanic.

The same thing will happen with legend of the 5 rings. A game that they easily could have used normal dice on. But nooooo....

  I had this same feeling on reading SW.  I finally ran it for group a few years ago, and I was very surprised.  They enjoyed it a great deal, and it seemed to add a level of excitement that really was harder to come by in some other games.  Maybe I need to run more games (I have run maybe 8 or so sessions) to see more holes appearing, but right now it definitely seems to hold for its purpose (heroic pulp style games, i think it does gritty ok as well.. I tend to prefer GURPS for that).
 
    That said, it can be hard to assess challenges for encounters.  I had one encounter I expected the group to expend some resources, but not to struggle too much.  They got wiped, and I used zero bennies.  The group made new characters and returned to the same dungeon.  Ran through most of it and then in the boss fight, destroyed him badly.  Aces were part of it, but they also used much better tactics as well.   Tactics and efficient use of magic in a fantasy setting is an extreme force multiplier in SW.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2021, 10:51:09 AM by oggsmash »