This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
NOTICE: Some online security services are reporting that information for a limited number of users from this site is for sale on the "dark web." As of right now, there is no direct evidence of this, but change your password just to be safe.

Author Topic: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...  (Read 6153 times)

oggsmash

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2229
Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2021, 10:29:14 AM »
I am interested in this as well though.  I want a print book, and have been checking their site to see when it rolls out.  Any kickstarter backers on here who have the print book in hands yet?

Jame Rowe

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • J
  • Posts: 233
Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2021, 02:03:35 PM »
Hopefully it won't be too woke, but then again this is the two most woke publishers besides WotC so I won't count on it...
On a serious note, how would this be different from normal default Savage Worlds? Is it like Savage Rifts where you get 'archtypes' instead of 'classes'?

Lol, in what world is PEG the third most woke publisher in the industry? They did have that preemptive-defensive move where they ended the Civil War in Deadlands, but other than that, I really haven't seen anything ideological from them.

Anyway, I still don't get the popularity of Savage Pathfinder. What's the appeal of a hybrid of Savage Worlds and 3e D&D? I can't imagine why I would want that. It might make sense if Golarion were a great setting, but it's as boring and generic as they come. I guess Savage Pathfinder might do some good if the lessons learned from it help make the Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion better when they finally get to it.

I hear that the only reason PEG got rid of the CSA was because it was attracting the really reactionary pro-CSA, white supremacist crowd, which the publisher didn't like. So make of it what you will.

And a member of my Savage Worlds group said the same thing about Savage Pathfinder. But to each thrir own, I think they can be a good fit.

   Have to laugh at there being a "crowd" of White supremacists.  I could see people identifying in some way to a fantasy version of the confederacy.   I think they made the switch because they were being assumed to he white supremacists because they implied that the confederacy could in any way make a stalemate of a war in a fantasy environment.

I think you missed the point, which is:

Deadlands made a fantasy CSA which survived the war. A number of supremacists tried to use it to justify their superiority despite the fictional version of the CSA freeing their slaves and becoming less racist (yes, likely neither would have happened in the real world). PEG removed the CSA's survival to distance themselves from the supremacists, not to be woke.
Here for the games, not for it being woke or not.

Jame Rowe

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • J
  • Posts: 233
Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2021, 02:04:20 PM »
I am interested in this as well though.  I want a print book, and have been checking their site to see when it rolls out.  Any kickstarter backers on here who have the print book in hands yet?

If I understand correctly, it should be ready around September.
Here for the games, not for it being woke or not.

Shrieking Banshee

  • Narcissist Undead
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1350
Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2021, 02:28:39 PM »
Deadlands made a fantasy CSA which survived the war. A number of supremacists tried to use it to justify their superiority despite the fictional version of the CSA freeing their slaves and becoming less racist (yes, likely neither would have happened in the real world). PEG removed the CSA's survival to distance themselves from the supremacists, not to be woke.
Thats cowardly as fuck though. And a cowardice thats rooted in the stupid principles of social justice.

'Some guys are misapropriating a creation - smash the creation'

oggsmash

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2229
Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2021, 04:11:08 PM »
Hopefully it won't be too woke, but then again this is the two most woke publishers besides WotC so I won't count on it...
On a serious note, how would this be different from normal default Savage Worlds? Is it like Savage Rifts where you get 'archtypes' instead of 'classes'?

Lol, in what world is PEG the third most woke publisher in the industry? They did have that preemptive-defensive move where they ended the Civil War in Deadlands, but other than that, I really haven't seen anything ideological from them.

Anyway, I still don't get the popularity of Savage Pathfinder. What's the appeal of a hybrid of Savage Worlds and 3e D&D? I can't imagine why I would want that. It might make sense if Golarion were a great setting, but it's as boring and generic as they come. I guess Savage Pathfinder might do some good if the lessons learned from it help make the Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion better when they finally get to it.

I hear that the only reason PEG got rid of the CSA was because it was attracting the really reactionary pro-CSA, white supremacist crowd, which the publisher didn't like. So make of it what you will.

And a member of my Savage Worlds group said the same thing about Savage Pathfinder. But to each thrir own, I think they can be a good fit.

   Have to laugh at there being a "crowd" of White supremacists.  I could see people identifying in some way to a fantasy version of the confederacy.   I think they made the switch because they were being assumed to he white supremacists because they implied that the confederacy could in any way make a stalemate of a war in a fantasy environment.

I think you missed the point, which is:

Deadlands made a fantasy CSA which survived the war. A number of supremacists tried to use it to justify their superiority despite the fictional version of the CSA freeing their slaves and becoming less racist (yes, likely neither would have happened in the real world). PEG removed the CSA's survival to distance themselves from the supremacists, not to be woke.

  I think you missed my point, saying "crowd" which was likely 6 guys.   As for what would have happened in the real world, I think it is likely the CSA would have freed slaves.   I do doubt they would have been less racist, and likely would have sent the freed slaves to Africa.   The entire western world freed their slaves, so I have no doubt the CSA would have done the same, trade pressure alone would have been the likely reason.  But yeah, certainly wouldnt be less racist.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2021, 04:15:46 PM by oggsmash »

Jaeger

  • That someone better.
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 909
Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2021, 04:21:47 PM »
...
I hear that the only reason PEG got rid of the CSA was because it was attracting the really reactionary pro-CSA, white supremacist crowd, which the publisher didn't like. So make of it what you will.
...
Deadlands made a fantasy CSA which survived the war. A number of supremacists tried to use it to justify their superiority despite the fictional version of the CSA freeing their slaves and becoming less racist (yes, likely neither would have happened in the real world). PEG removed the CSA's survival to distance themselves from the supremacists, not to be woke.


WTF!?

I think the idea of a CSA that survived the war is stupid (especially Deadlands’s version), and shows a lack of historical understanding, but I digress…

What he says:

...
  I think you missed my point, saying "crowd" which was likely 6 guys.

Exactly.

He changed it all because of six dudes. If that many.

Four of which were likely FBI undercover agents.

ROTFL.
"The envious are not satisfied with equality; they secretly yearn for superiority and revenge."

https://hereistheevidence.com/
Join Date: October 11, 2006

234ne

  • Newbie
  • *
  • ?
  • Posts: 21
Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2021, 04:39:08 PM »
Deadlands made a fantasy CSA which survived the war. A number of supremacists tried to use it to justify their superiority despite the fictional version of the CSA freeing their slaves and becoming less racist (yes, likely neither would have happened in the real world). PEG removed the CSA's survival to distance themselves from the supremacists, not to be woke.
Thats cowardly as fuck though. And a cowardice thats rooted in the stupid principles of social justice.

'Some guys are misapropriating a creation - smash the creation'

That's the thing. I mean there were actually decent creative reasons why Hensley removed the CSA, as they were kinda of a big thorn of contradiction that you needed a lot of steps of disbelief to ignore (i.e. How would a slave society do a complete 180, even with magic and demons, in less than a generation? I guess with desperation, but you still need some disbelief). Also I agree that it didn't add much to setting, in comparison to the other more fantastical factions.

On the other hand, removal of the CSA as it makes people uncomfortable to roleplay (even citing, "Imagine the GM having to roleplay those voices. That's not fun. That's not what our game's about. It's not what we *want* our game to be about") feels like a cop-out of trouble from both white supremacist and SJWs.

       

tenbones

  • Poobah of the D.O.N.G.
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4976
Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2021, 04:51:31 PM »
Why speculate about it when you can read Shanes own words right here.

Quote
The decision for the CSA to fall in the Deadlands timeline after 1871 (1865 in the real world) is mine and mine alone. I created the world, I run the world with the help of some excellent people, and I know where it’s heading.

I’m a fiscal conservative and social liberal, have an MA in Military History, and am well-versed in the Civil War, the West, and the 19th century in general. I stand by the original decision to use the war to create the fear and terror of Deadlands (the same theme we explore in our Weird Wars line), and I stand by the decision now to change course.

Here’s why. Having characters loyal to the CSA…not just “Southerners” but actual loyalists to the cause, even if anti-slavery but loyal for some reason, can be *incredibly* uncomfortable for others at the table. Imagine the GM having to roleplay those voices. That’s not fun. That’s not what our game’s about. We want you to laugh and smile and roll Aces and get excited about your next session. And if you and your group want to explore heavier themes, go for it! But that’s something you and your friends can handle better than we can do in print where we deal with players and Marshals all over the world.

Feedback is important to me, I do listen, and I do care what all of you think about Deadlands. But the decisions are mine, the world is mine, and it will stay that way until I die. I know what it is, what it stands for, and where I want it to go.

Deadlands is spaghetti Western with horror. It’s cowboys and zombies. That’s the heart and soul of the Weird West. Everything else is background, real or imagined, cool or mundane.

So what about the story and history of Deadlands? How will the Last War in Hell on Earth start? We answered those questions internally a long time ago, and are excited to share them with you when the time comes.

The end of the Civil War 13 years prior to the current timeline still carries all the weight it did before. Heroes can be veterans of either side, harbor resentments, reminiscence about their experience at Gettysburg, and so on.

Everything up to the Battle of Washington (a huge steampunk battle in the world of Deadlands) stays the same. Not much happened after that in the official timeline anyway.

The Agents and Texas Rangers have been working together for a while under the Twilight Protocol, and they still do in the new edition (and fight with each other just like today’s government agencies).

The Great Rail Wars still happened just as it did before… it’s just the Union offering the contract rather than the Union and the CSA.

The Servitor series happens just as in those four EPIC Plot Point Campaigns.

Doomtown rose, fell, rose, fell, and well…it’s Doomtown. It never really dies!

Honestly, we think even the most dedicated fan won’t even notice the difference. We haven’t in our playtests, writings, and reviews.

Maybe you’ll agree. Maybe you won’t. That’s okay. We’re doing it anyway.

We’ve said everything we care to say on the issue, so our efforts from here forward are focused on making the best game and worlds we know how to make. If they don’t fit your tastes, that’s okay. We’re all lucky to live in a golden age of gaming right now and you have hundreds of choices. I’m very happy to see any of my friends at other companies get your business and for you to find whatever game, company, or system makes YOU and your friends happy. Truly.

Thanks again for reading, friends, and I hope to see you in the Weird West for one more ride!

Savage Worlds is about tropes, it's not supposed to be realistic. That said it's part of the larger in-game narrative they're creating for their Morgana Effect which is going to effect not just Deadlands, but some of their other gamelines as well.

For me? Meh. I'll still have CSA stuff in my game when I run it. I'm not a big fan of the Deadlands metaplot anyhow.

As for Savage Pathfinder - it's rock solid. I've been saying Savage Worlds does D&D fantasy better than D&D. Literally none of the problems that have plagued D&D in various amounts are an issue in Savage Worlds. What's better, since Savage Worlds can scale up to insane levels of power - you can lift most if not all the rules you want from Savage Rifts and use them for extreme high-level play without missing a beat. Something D&D in any incarnation would be an insane struggle by comparison.

I own all the current PDF's it's close to final drafts (I've kept each iteration). I'm happy to field any questions.

1) No their version of Golarion is not woke *at all* in the current draft. Frankly I'm take it or leave it on the setting, my goal is to convert all my 1e and 2e D&D material over. Greybox Realms, Spelljammer, Kara-Tur etc. Savage Pathfinder has done 95% of the work for us.

The greatness of Savage Pathfinder is not that it's Pathfinder. It's that now Savage Worlds will have a complete lineup of rules that kicks the door down for D&D style fantasy from top-to-bottom and beyond because the chassis scales WAY past what D&D of any edition can pull off easily.

 

234ne

  • Newbie
  • *
  • ?
  • Posts: 21
Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2021, 04:56:16 PM »
I am interested in this as well though.  I want a print book, and have been checking their site to see when it rolls out.  Any kickstarter backers on here who have the print book in hands yet?

If I understand correctly, it should be ready around September.

It looks $50ish USD for the core, and around $30ish for the Companion and Bestiary? I am interested in the core, but arguing whether I actually need the companion or bestiary as I already have pathfinder books and other SW books.


The greatness of Savage Pathfinder is not that it's Pathfinder. It's that now Savage Worlds will have a complete lineup of rules that kicks the door down for D&D style fantasy from top-to-bottom and beyond because the chassis scales WAY past what D&D of any edition can pull off easily.
 

I have to admit a part of me do want slap my past-self for buying those useless SW Fantasy Companion, rather than investing into a complete setting deals to reverse engineer. 

tenbones

  • Poobah of the D.O.N.G.
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4976
Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2021, 04:58:06 PM »
On the other hand, removal of the CSA as it makes people uncomfortable to roleplay (even citing, "Imagine the GM having to roleplay those voices. That's not fun. That's not what our game's about. It's not what we *want* our game to be about") feels like a cop-out of trouble from both white supremacist and SJWs.
   

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. The significant takeaway from his own words is: he's a fiscal conservative. He's making a game product to be sold and he's pretty consistent about not trying to offend anyone. Deadlands, regardless of what anyone might feel personally about the CSA, requires a business call.

The facts are - yes the CSA would have been destroyed in the events of Deadlands with their metaplot. So it does make sense since they're planning on taking that metaplot all the way back to the dark ages where they're going to be doing other gamelines. And so it only make this a natural point to make that change.

No matter what - if the CSA gets removed... you know years after the fact in real life it collapsed is an issue for anyone... I simply don't know what to tell you. These are strange times, but that said, I don't believe Shane or anyone at PEG is overtly Woke. They're a family business trying to make cool games.

I'm still using the CSA in my games, as I'm not a fan of metaplots in general so the events of Deadlands never really occurred as they do in the game for me. /shrug.

tenbones

  • Poobah of the D.O.N.G.
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4976
Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2021, 05:02:10 PM »
I am interested in this as well though.  I want a print book, and have been checking their site to see when it rolls out.  Any kickstarter backers on here who have the print book in hands yet?

If I understand correctly, it should be ready around September.

It looks $50ish USD for the core, and around $30ish for the Companion and Bestiary? I am interested in the core, but arguing whether I actually need the companion or bestiary as I already have pathfinder books and other SW books.


The greatness of Savage Pathfinder is not that it's Pathfinder. It's that now Savage Worlds will have a complete lineup of rules that kicks the door down for D&D style fantasy from top-to-bottom and beyond because the chassis scales WAY past what D&D of any edition can pull off easily.
 

I have to admit a part of me do want slap my past-self for buying those useless SW Fantasy Companion, rather than investing into a complete setting deals to reverse engineer.

The Bestiary is worth it imo. Also I TOTALLY agree with you on the Fantasy Companion. BUT... it was never a thing where the Fantasy Companion was supposed to be anything other than a setting-neutral set of rules to modify the original core.

The new Fantasy Companion that's currently in the pipeline is not going to be a retread of the Savage Pathfinder rules, according to PEG. Nor is it going to be a re-hash of the SWADE core. It's going to be it's own thing that can be used with any of their Savage Worlds books. If they pull it off well, it'll be a real great addition.

tenbones

  • Poobah of the D.O.N.G.
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4976
Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2021, 05:12:20 PM »
For anyone that wants to see the Bestiary TOC


« Last Edit: June 18, 2021, 05:14:50 PM by tenbones »

tenbones

  • Poobah of the D.O.N.G.
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4976
Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2021, 05:21:51 PM »
I should add this too... Drow are evil. So take of that what you will.


Jaeger

  • That someone better.
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 909
Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2021, 05:49:57 PM »
On the other hand, removal of the CSA as it makes people uncomfortable to roleplay (even citing, "Imagine the GM having to roleplay those voices. That's not fun. That's not what our game's about. It's not what we *want* our game to be about") feels like a cop-out of trouble from both white supremacist and SJWs.
   

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. The significant takeaway from his own words is: he's a fiscal conservative. He's making a game product to be sold and he's pretty consistent about not trying to offend anyone. Deadlands, regardless of what anyone might feel personally about the CSA, requires a business call.
...

"I'm a fiscal conservative" = tap-dancing fence sitter trying to have it both ways.

(IMHO CSA surviving the war is still dumb, and he should get a refund on his MA in Military history degree...)


I would bet that he probably really fears that the SJW wokemob can affect his lively-hood over such nonsense though.

His real name is known, and these retards do go to peoples houses when they feel that they are responsible for badwrongthink.

So while I think that he comes across as a lukewarm worm, I can see why he would make the changes he has; especially if he has a family.



As for Savage Pathfinder - it's rock solid. I've been saying Savage Worlds does D&D fantasy better than D&D. Literally none of the problems that have plagued D&D in various amounts are an issue in Savage Worlds. What's better, since Savage Worlds can scale up to insane levels of power - you can lift most if not all the rules you want from Savage Rifts and use them for extreme high-level play without missing a beat. Something D&D in any incarnation would be an insane struggle by comparison.

I am actually pro savage worlds pathfinder edition...

I just have to get this out of the way first:  Savage Worlds Fucking Sucks.

Despite that fact that my hate of SW as a system knows no limit. I think Savage Pathfinder is good for the hobby.

D&D does have math scaling issues in every edition. And I think that is is good for people to see that Fantasy can be done with systems that are not D&D or D&D's clone.

IMHO one of the worst things to happen for system diversity in the hobby is for the perennial #2 RPG to be a D&D clone.

At least when World of Darkness was the perennial #2 people saw that there were not only other playable systems, but different genre's of RPG to play in as well. On the shelves, in the hobby shops. The second thing they would see.

Now it is just Furry D&D, then woke D&D. Then the flavor of the quarter for everything else.

Oh, and CoC is still around...

It's a shame that WoD and Shadowrun mismanaged themselves into has-been status. And that GW never took WHFRP seriously.  The hobby was better off when they were a steady presence.

At least Savage Pathfinder might give people who would otherwise be disinclined a reason to try the dreaded "different system" that they say they don't have time for.


"The envious are not satisfied with equality; they secretly yearn for superiority and revenge."

https://hereistheevidence.com/
Join Date: October 11, 2006

234ne

  • Newbie
  • *
  • ?
  • Posts: 21
Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2021, 06:19:38 PM »

I just have to get this out of the way first:  Savage Worlds Fucking Sucks.

I understand, I also have moments of love and hate with this system. As I said earlier, it becomes retarded when the dice keeps on rolling, I'm certain upgrading a skill to d6 from d4 is a downgrade till you reach d8, and sometimes it feels like a washed down version of the haydays of WEG; TORG and D6. But that's just an old grog's opinion.


It's a shame that WoD and Shadowrun mismanaged themselves into has-been status. And that GW never took WHFRP seriously.


Add FFG to the hit-list suicide-list :'(
« Last Edit: June 19, 2021, 03:25:56 AM by 234ne »