First time posting in the main forum here. I'm usually posting on reddit/r/rpg and reddit/r/rpgdesign.  So hello everyone.

I'm designing a game which I want to publish.  It started out more traditional-ish and I think it became narrative and I don't know what I feel about that.  I'm writing this to ask if this sounds "narrative" .  

Background: It's my dream to publish a game of my own design (I published a few other very-story-telling games which others designed).  I have an idea for settings which I think is cool.  I wanted to make my game with an existing system.  But... I ran into... psycho-emotional-marketing problems with that.  After running the settings in 5e, I decided I didn't like D&D/OSR for my game because I don't like the speed, leveling, and class system.  I couldn't go with Savage Worlds (which would have been almost perfect) and make it my own, stand-alone game.  I tried Dungeon World and really liked it... but the Dungeon World players tested it with me said my style was "old fashioned" and rail-road-y because they couldn't change my  settings on the fly the way they wanted.  Went to FATE and I hated the meta-game economy.  Tried a few others that either had contractual problems or were too crunchy (ie D100) for my setting or had dice pools (ie. OpenD6) which I found annoying.  So I decided to make it on my own based on what I like.

I started off with 4 Talents (like micro20), 2d10 for target number, free-form Professions ala Barbarians of Lemuria.  And because I want mechanical differentiation, I added Perks, which are really up-to-four special class abilities (if there were classes) like "Cleave", "Barbarian Rage" , etc.  I have been going back and forth on whether to use HP or a toughness soak -> Wound system ala Savage Worlds, but it works either way.  So far I like it.

Then I added one "narrative mechanic" which I really like: Lore Sheets.  This is from Legends of the Wulin ( I game I had a hand in producing).  Lore Sheets are statements about the character's relationship with characters in the game world, and hence define quests, motivations, etc.  And also give special abilities that come from the World, like money, power, follower, etc.  Only these Lore Sheets are only added during down-time (unlike Legends of the Wulin) so you can't all of a sudden say "hey, I actually know this guy, he is my cousin, and so he should give me the info I need."  I particularly wanted to use this mechanic because I think it helps tie characters to the World Settings, which is important when the game takes place in an original non-generic setting.  It allows me to make all those "pop-boxes" you see in settings sections into cut-out parts which can be attached to character sheets, and also serve as sort of a diary of the character's development.

OK... then I tried to do Social Combat.  I figured I need this because subtle, long-term mind-control is a common thing in these settings.  And also there could be a lot of intrigue in this game.  But then I had this problem about how to do Social Combat against players without risking player agency.

So I went to another mechanic from Legends of the Wulin: Conditions.  

QuoteConditions on characters have negative conse-quences, applying a -1 modifier to a Talent, except if the player (or GM for NPCs) is able to role-play ac-cording to the description of the Condition. This can be role-played to show the effect of the Condition or role-played to show how the Condition does not hinder the character's actions.

So players can ignore a Wound - like a broken rib - if they role-play the effects of the Wound - "I shout 'ah that hurts! I'm too old for this!'" as he swings his sword - or if they roleplay why the Wound is not applicable - "Well, my rib is fucked up but not my arm, so I'm OK to attack with my rapier as long as don't lung too far."

Conditions all players to receive Social Conflict attacks without giving up control of what they do... but if they don't go along with it, they take a negative modifier.  

So my question... does this seem too meta / narrative / non-immersive to you?

Lore sheets sounds like Aaron Allston's Blue book he used for his Strike Force (superhero) campaign. As such I wouldn't consider them narrative. Just a way of formally dealing with the downtime between sessions.

Remember long before story games and narrative mechanics were in vogue, the RPG world had a side where players and referee do funny voices, wrote up detailed background and roleplaying their character has having a distinct personality of its own. Despite the disinterest or even disdain of the crowd that was more interested in smash and grab both styles of player are compatible because both were acting as their character within the setting of the game.

As for the rest the way to answer your question is with another question. "Is the mechanics directly relate either in detail or in the abstract with something concrete in the setting. Another way of looking at it, describe to youself in natural language the situation and then see how the mechanic works in resolving the uncertainties of the situation.

For example you mentioned Social Combat mechanics. What were the situations were you imagining that they would be need to used for? Do those situation truly have a uncertainty factor?  If they don't why layer mechanics of top it? If they do, then are the mechanics at the right level of detail for the game you want to design.

Sounds like you are trying to design a RPG oriented to acting side of roleplaying. Which is OK, Harnmaster, Tekemul, Glorantha and along with World of Darknes, are successful games in that category and certainly not story games.

Welcome aboard!

But this, right there, is a reason I hate game labeling with a hot heavy hate.  

Because here's my question to you: why do you care?

Yes, you're planning on marketing it.  But you're also throwing in elements you like, and excluding ones you don't, the way anyone who's genuinely passionate about his or her creation should do.

If I'm looking over your game to see if I want to try it out, I'm not going to pay the slightest bit of attention to the silly-ass labels and tag lines people slap on the back cover.  For one thing, they're often inaccurate, even if we all agreed on what the labels mean, which we certainly don't.  For another, they're usually self-serving: they're far more often aimed at luring in the desired demographic or buffing up the game's cred than otherwise.

What I'm going to want, instead, is to flip through the thing, or else (a poor second) read a very comprehensive review by someone I trust.  I'm certainly not going to make the sign of the cross at it just because the word "narrative" may or may not be on the cover.

Quote from: Ravenswing;881227Because here's my question to you: why do you care?

Yeah. I wondered that too. Not much to add to what Ravenswing already said. A good elevator pitch is far more likely to pique my interest or tell me your game is not for me than is how you decide to pigeonhole your game.

Storytelling games feature mechanics that determine which player has narrative control over the game world. Based on your description, the "lore sheet" mechanic from Legends of Wulin probably qualifies because the mechanic is giving the player the narrative control to introduce new elements to the game world.

The "roleplay to ignore a mechanical penalty" thing isn't a narrative control mechanic. It's a dissociated mechanic that you're using to encourage a certain kind of roleplaying.

Using lore sheets strictly as a character creation tool is also a dissociated mechanic, but that's true of virtually all character creation mechanics.

QuoteSo my question... does this seem too meta / narrative / non-immersive to you?

This question really has no meaning. Is the game fun? Are the mechanics creating game play and interactions at the table that you (and others) find entertaining?

The distinction between associated and dissociated mechanics or between roleplaying mechanics and narrative control mechanis is only meaningful insofar as it helps you focus your design on what you (and your players) find fun.

It's like sex. "Am I spending too much time putting dildos in my ass?" isn't really a meaningful question. The meaningful question is whether or not you're enjoying yourself. And distinguishing between dildos and nipple clamps is only useful insofar as it helps both you (and the manufacturers of sex toys) identify products you may find useful and enjoyable.

Quote from: estar;881221For example you mentioned Social Combat mechanics. What were the situations were you imagining that they would be need to used for? Do those situation truly have a uncertainty factor?
Sounds like you are trying to design a RPG oriented to acting side of roleplaying. Which is OK, Harnmaster, Tekemul, Glorantha and along with World of Darknes, are successful games in that category and certainly not story games.

Thank you.  I imagine that often players may be a little like a cross between fantasy world Pinkertons / detectives/ and maybe ... probably ... double agents, who have to influence other characters and maybe will grow to influence factions.  They live in a D&D world, set 80 years after the last dragon was exterminated by armies using mass-produced magical weapons, and Reincarnate spells have been systematized into a science that the elite of society use.  In this world mind-control is common.  And the players will (possibly) start off in the employ of magic-merchant elites, doing their bidding.

Quote from: Ravenswing;881227Welcome aboard!
But this, right there, is a reason I hate game labeling with a hot heavy hate.  
Because here's my question to you: why do you care?
.

Thank you.  Your point is taken.  I care because it seems many gamers like games in certain styles.  As I mentioned, when I played Dungeon World the Table didn't like my style for that game, which made me realize that as much as I though I appreciated that game, it would not work for me.  Which was a bummer because that game is popular and it is good to hitch a wagon onto something which is popular.  And so I find there is nothing popular which I want to hitch up to.  

Quote from: Bren;881233Yeah. I wondered that too. Not much to add to what Ravenswing already said. A good elevator pitch is far more likely to pique my interest or tell me your game is not for me than is how you decide to pigeonhole your game.

Thank you.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;881234This question really has no meaning. Is the game fun? Are the mechanics creating game play and interactions at the table that you (and others) find entertaining?

It's like sex. "Am I spending too much time putting dildos in my ass?" isn't really a meaningful question. The meaningful question is whether or not you're enjoying yourself. And distinguishing between dildos and nipple clamps is only useful insofar as it helps both you (and the manufacturers of sex toys) identify products you may find useful and enjoyable.

Thank you. So... I don't know if it's fun or not yet.  Part of the problem with making a game is that everyone just wants to play the game they are used to playing.  So getting play testers is difficult.  Getting people to share my vision is difficult.  But... you have proven to me once again... that sexual metaphors can explain almost anything.  To follow on... it's like I'm making a double-sided dildo / nipple-clamp hybrid contraption.  I don't know if it works right now.  .  But that dildo part may be mistaken for a butt-plug (and it sort of can be used that way I guess), and I'm even less sure if people would be into playing with a double-sided butt-plug / nipple clamp hybrid contraption.

Lore Sheets sound a little too OOC for me.  Maybe if they were tied to a limited number of activities the PC could do during downtime and it wasn't automatic, then it could be abstracted but associated.

Conditions as presented wouldn't work for me, too meta.

Would have to see more detail on Social Combat, but generally don't like those systems.

Granted I'm probably not your audience, but you asked.

As far as buttplug/nipple-clamp contraptions go, haven't heard of those.  Saw nipple clamps chained to a clit ring once, but that was San Francisco.

You should ask Jeff

Quote from: Jiaxingseng;881238I care because it seems many gamers like games in certain styles.  As I mentioned, when I played Dungeon World the Table didn't like my style for that game, which made me realize that as much as I though I appreciated that game, it would not work for me.  Which was a bummer because that game is popular and it is good to hitch a wagon onto something which is popular.  And so I find there is nothing popular which I want to hitch up to.

The thing is, even though we'll commonly say things like "I hate narrative games", we actually don't.  We hate specific games, not categories, and we hate them because of specific mechanics (or other game elements), not because of how they're categorized.  I don't hate narrative games just because they're narrative, I hate games which force players to create the world as they play or which have prominent metapoint-economy minigames attached, and these things happen to be common in a lot of narrative games.  But there are games which can be considered "narrative" which I actually do like, since they either don't have those characteristics or use them in ways that I somehow enjoy.

But I'm rambling.  To get back to my actual point, don't worry too much about categories because they're just shorthand for common combinations of characteristics.  Instead, focus on the characteristics themselves and let the categories fall where they may.

Quote from: Jiaxingseng;881219reddit/r/rpg

Quote from: Jiaxingseng;881219So my question... does this seem too meta / narrative / non-immersive to you?

Not particularly, however a concept is one thing and the execution... Could you provide an example taken from your game (I assume the other ones are from Wulin)?

BTW, there's an excellent discussion concerning newest iteration of CONAN, taking the place a few threads down. Plenty of useful stuff to learn there, not only about the design itself, but also about such surprising elements like the virtue of patience.

Lore sheets sounds a bit like contacts in other games or simply interaction or background notes that go way back to OD&D depending on the group and system.

Some people love that. Some despise it. Some dont like it when its too railroady from the player side but are ok with it if it is an outgrowth of role play. Some like backgrounds and dont like predetermined contacts, and so on.

There is a thread here from a week or so ago that touches on that.

Be aware though that the more mechanics you have for social interactions and downtime the more resistance you'll get from some players and GMs. And the more acceptance from others.

Having backgrounds and contacts/relatives does not a narrative game make.

Figure out what road you want to tread and what types of players you want to attract and those you do not.

Quote from: nDervish;881266But there are games which can be considered "narrative" which I actually do like, since they either don't have those characteristics or use them in ways that I somehow enjoy.
.

Out of curiosity, which ones?

A lot of people say WoD is narrative.  I don't think so.  I like playing Dungeon World... I HATE GMing it with anything other than a generic, silly story.  I really like PDQ. Trail of Cthulhu is considered a narrative game.  I actually don't like the game, but I play it all the time and enjoy it... but not because of the game.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;881267
Not particularly, however a concept is one thing and the execution... Could you provide an example taken from your game (I assume the other ones are from Wulin)?

Two elements I mentioned are Lore Sheets and Conditions.  

First Lore Sheets.  In Legends of Wulin and my game, Lore Sheets are true statements, often created in-advance by a GM and handed out sort of as an XP reward.  In both systems , Lore Sheets are purchased with something like XP.  In both games, GM-provided Lore Sheets convey in-game knoweledge that a character would have.  It is often  something about the character's personal history.  In LoTW, these statements include knowledge of something in the world, like a faction, is doing something.  

Examples:

Quote"On the path of revenge" Level 3.  Sima Zhang killed my wife... I will not stop till I have my revenge.

Quote"The Secret in the Well" Level 2.  In the Wudang sect temple there is a well.  It is said that the Buddah had drank from this well.  At the bottom of this well is a treasure.

Quote"Fireball spell research" Level 1.  (Accomplishment Lore Sheet). I travelled to the fire lake, where I observed the fire beatle... from that I learned how to cast this spell.

In LotW, these Lore Sheets may grant some powers, but mostly define relationship and history and may therefore be used to guide campaign direction.   Lore Sheets can be created on the fly, and retroactively create a relationship to NPC or knowledge in the game.  Note that LotW is somewhat of a sandbox wuxia game, so the mechanic works in part because LotW... and real wuxia genre in general, is soap-opera-ish.  

In my game, Rational Magic, Lore Sheets can only be given out or created during down-time / montage time.  GM has approval over the creation of Lore Sheets.  Again, because my settings are not generic fantasy, Lore Sheets in essence contain parts of world-history and it's relation to a character.  In my game, Lore Sheets can be "tapped", giving a bonus, which reflects the familiarity of the character to the target, or extra effort the character makes because of the feelings the character has towards the target.  It can also be tapped to access wealth described on the sheet, get access to NPC minions to help the character.  It is both a bonus modifier mechanic, an experience mechanic, and a personal quest mechanic.  


Conditions .  In LotW these are widely used for everything.  In my game it means that a character or location has a problem which causes a negative modifier unless the character is role-played to show the problem  or how it is negated.  Example:

WuSai the Thief got hit with a blade in his arm, applying a Wound Condition: "hurt arm", -1 Finesse.  (Characters can take 4 Wounds before being taken out).  Wusai is fighting with his on blade, which uses the Finesse Talent.  So... he can role - play that he is in a lot of pain, but manages to pull through and still fight.  Or, he might say that he learned to fight with both hands, so switches the knife to the other hand (as WuSai is sort of a versatile guy, as GM I would allow that).  That's how the Condition is negated.  

One effect of that is that basically, the game is rewarding players for role-playing and therefor sacrificing "mechanical" logic by not applying the modifier.  BUT, if the Condition was described so that it prevented an action, then it action is prevented.

Another example.  WuSai is seduced by Sara the Buxom Beauty through Social Conflict, receiving a Condition, "Seduction," -1 to Will.  WuSai can role-play he is in love/lust.  That is, until the player want's to go against this.  WuSai can also say that although he has been seduced, the reaction is that he has developed a deep love-hate relationship and distrust of Sara.  Condition negated.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;881267



Not particularly, however a concept is one thing and the execution... Could you provide an example taken from your game (I assume the other ones are from Wulin)?

BTW, there's an excellent discussion concerning newest iteration of CONAN, taking the place a few threads down. Plenty of useful stuff to learn there, not only about the design itself, but also about such surprising elements like the virtue of patience.

I just wrote up a big reply... and it says that it is awaiting moderator approval.  I don't know how to contact the moderator.  

BTW... I'm looking through the Conan KS thread... is that what you are talking about?

Quote from: Jiaxingseng;881276I just wrote up a big reply... and it says that it is awaiting moderator approval.  I don't know how to contact the moderator.  

I'll keep an eye on that.

Quote from: Jiaxingseng;881276BTW... I'm looking through the Conan KS thread... is that what you are talking about?

Yep. Both this and this. Funnily enough, I find the game itself less important there. The discussion between the developer (Jason D) and the rest of people is what I consider very enlightening for various reasons.

I've heard of Legends of the Wulin before, but I've never played it before.
Is that a game you would recommend?

Quote from: Cave Bear;881294I've heard of Legends of the Wulin before, but I've never played it before.
Is that a game you would recommend?

Well... I published it, so of course I would recommend it?  

OK.  I published it when I was working for a company that is basically now defunct because of all sorts of bad decisions that I didn't stop.  Wuxia is a genre I now appreciate but is not my favorite genre.  

The game is narrative but very crunchy.  Similar in mechanics ( a little bit) to 7 Seas and WoD... although at the time it was being made I didn't know that.  And I would say those mechanics are better than 7 Seas and WoD, but I don't think that is saying much.  It is slow-ish because it emphasizes narrative combat.  It has, by far, the most faithful adaptation of source material of any type of wuxia game.  It has great art (IMO).  It has awesome and enjoyable character generation and customization which creates balanced characters that are all different.  

Basically, if you want to play a narrative wuxia game that adheres to wuxia literature (no supernatural stuff or creatures, etc), has a combat mechanic which emulates that, plays best in sand-box mode, and is beautfiful to look at, then get it.  If you like real wuxia but like it rules-lite, then get LotW for the settings... I swear the only way to get more faithful to the source material is to translate Jin Yong (Hong Kong English name Louis Cha.).. whu wrote wuxia novels published in serial newspapers in Hong Kong in the 1960s... Shaw Brothers movies are usually based on his works... and put those into your game.

But if you are not into wuxia, or you think wuxia is like Dragonball (or Oriental Adventures), or you hate narrative mechanics, or you only like rules-lite game... then this is not a game for you.