Quote from: JamesV;563701Is that why the clouds are white?

Are you saying that white is normative?

Perhaps the Mwangi got it right anyway, maybe they turned away from higher technology, large kingdoms etc etc due to some instinctive or perceived fear of going back to the old ways...
Who says that somehow having a higher technology makes you a better culture, morally superior to others?

There seems to be a big assumption that because the more European style cultures (higher technology etc) are somehow superior to the Mwangi tribal way of life and portraying the Mwangi in this way somehow denigrates them.
I think people are looking at things from their own (European/American etc) POV too much.

Quote from: S'mon;563699The weather is racist.

Yeah, I hate that!  :mad:

Quote from: danskmacabre;563706Perhaps the Mwangi got it right anyway, maybe they turned away from higher technology, large kingdoms etc etc due to some instinctive or perceived fear of going back to the old ways...
Who says that somehow having a higher technology makes you a better culture, morally superior to others?

There seems to be a big assumption that because the more European style cultures (higher technology etc) are somehow superior to the Mwangi tribal way of life and portraying the Mwangi in this way somehow denigrates them.
I think people are looking at things from their own (European/American etc) POV too much.

I think that someone is treating the Mwangi as a Noble Savage, and that is sooo racist. :nono:

Just saying, that if you consider the forum this line of discussion came from, there is no way you could defend the choices Pathfinder made without getting a finger pointed your way.

In reality, the way you think of Mwangi culture could be used to make the Mwangi interesting PCs/NPCs, and that's what matters.

Hey here's an rpg.net poster talking about Golarion at a 'con.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgTuarwFm6s

Quote from: JamesV;563701Is that why the clouds are white?

Some clouds are grey, or even black, you FUCKING RACIST.

Quote from: JamesV;563708I think that someone is treating the Mwangi as a Noble Savage, and that is sooo racist. :nono:

Heh, but that's just a POV, maybe they see everyone else as savages and making the same mistake as their ancestors.
Not saying they do, but I think people make a lot of assumptions based on what sort of cultures they come from as people.

QuoteJust saying, that if you consider the forum this line of discussion came from, there is no way you could defend the choices Pathfinder made without getting a finger pointed your way.

Yes I could be accused of lots of things, but some would agree with me and tbh, that's fine with me. People can disagree with me if they like, as long as they politely disagree with me.

QuoteIn reality, the way you think of Mwangi culture could be used to make the Mwangi interesting PCs/NPCs, and that's what matters.

Indeed yes, but like I said, some people see people using spears and not wearing much clothes with dark skin and start jumping to conclusions..
It doesn't HAVE to be all black and white...  

Quote from: Ladybird;563689All this is true... but Ettin et al are not arguing this matter in good faith. They're not looking for a "less racist" setting or to try and improve Golarion. They simply want to discredit publishers who aren't fans of D&D4, and accusations of racism, rape culture, etc. work great as attacks, because they are almost impossible to actually defend yourself against when the mob gets going.

Well once again Darwinism's question of "Are you really that stupid?" because you know 4th edition has the same stupid problems to the point where if you actually bothered to read that thread people actually pointed them out.

QuoteI don't Golarion well enough to comment. But I did read the thread and my only observation is people seem to be equating ignorance of history with racial stereotyping...i don't think those are the same thing. I think if someone makes a game based on an incomplete understanding of, of simplified, history, that doesn't make them racist or problematic.

Its Africa.  How the hell do you not know about Africa?  Honestly I would have expected one to do Africa in an entirely different way than Golarion did because its got some of the most iconic symbols in the entire world.

You know, I can make a really detailed argument that the movie Predator is full of homoerotic subtext, and at the end of the day all I've done is look really hard for something that probably isn't there. If you turn your head and squint and crank up the righteous indignation meter up to eleven, I'm sure you can find things about Golarion that make you scream, "THAT"S RACIST!!" like the kid from Wonder Showzen, but guess what? You've probably spent a lot of time looking for something that really isn't there.

I've read both the Inner Sea guides, and never once have any members of the five different Mwangi races been described at "spear chuckers in grass skirts." One of the most powerful and technologically advanced of the ancient empires, Shory, was Mwangi. One of the most powerful mages of all time was a Mwangi named Old-Mage Jatembe, and he's credited as helping save civilization from total destruction after the Earthfall. One of the oldest and most prestigious mage schools, Magaambya, is in the Expanse. The city of Osibu is a paradise on earth that is one of the few bastions of happiness in the entirety of Golarion. Call me funny but I'm just not seeing it here.

What I am seeing though is an attack from a faux social crusaders that contribute nothing to the gaming community other then stirring up puffed up moral outrage to mask attacks against whatever person or company they happen to dislike. It's cheap rhetoric and the usage of strawmen big enough that Christopher Lee should be dancing in front of it used in place of actual discussion and reason. And the sad thing is that none of this is done for any sort of progressive reason. It's an ego massage session from a group of people that want to be seen as the nerd Richard Neville.

Quote from: technoextreme;563719Well once again Darwinism's question of "Are you really that stupid?" because you know 4th edition has the same stupid problems to the point where if you actually bothered to read that thread people actually pointed them out.

Its Africa.  How the hell do you not know about Africa?  Honestly I would have expected one to do Africa in an entirely different way than Golarion did because its got some of the most iconic symbols in the entire world.

I see you removed the part where you claimed Golarion omits the "most obvious part of Africa".  I was going to ask you what that was.

I think that thread just shows people have way too much time on their hands and quite possibly need to find a job to keep them occupied.

Wait a second.  I admit I am not familar with Golarion, but if I put out an rpg that talks about an African culture, and have someone from that culture depicted like this:



That makes me a racist?


Wow.  I can't help note the irony in that so many rpg gamers have become Tipper Gore, and Dee Snider's speech to congress would also fit perfectly without modification on rpg boards as well.

Quote from: CRKrueger;563722I see you removed the part where you claimed Golarion omits the "most obvious part of Africa".  I was going to ask you what that was.

How the hell do you not know this?  

QuoteWait a second. I admit I am not familar with Golarion, but if I put out an rpg that talks about an African culture, and have someone from that culture depicted like this:

It depends.  If its the only depection then yes its actually quite lazy but if its not then I don't really have a problem.  The fundamental problem is that when you squash an entire countries culture down into one or two it unintentional racism.

Quote from: technoextreme;563725If you can't figure it out then you are an idiot.

If you were raised in the 80's you'd probably say "Apartheid".  If you were raised in the 70's or 90's (courtesy of King Tut's treasure on tour and The Mummy movies) you'd say "Egypt".  If you were raised in the 50's or earlier, you'd probably say something like "Colonialism" or "Lost Tribe of Israel".

Be explicit and don't assume everyone knows what you're talking about.

Quote from: technoextreme;563725It depends.  If its the only depection then yes its actually quite lazy but if its not then I don't really have a problem.  The fundamental problem is that when you squash an entire countries culture down into one or two it unintentional racism.

That's Shaka Zulu!  If one of the many cultures in the game was inspired from African lore and I use that picture, that is no more racist than using King Arther to represent a European knight.  And you call that "quite lazy" and others call it "racist"?

That's truly WTF man.