So, is Golarion Racist?

Benoist · July 27, 2012, 03:06:25 AM

Quote from: StormBringer;565064What would be racist, then? I agree that Golarion isn't, but short of the obvious RaHoWa and anything by Stormfront, what elements would get a game labeled 'racist'?

Killing Orc babies like murderhobos and dressing up their parents like Zulu warriors?

Aos · July 27, 2012, 03:09:51 AM

I see that it's time to log out for a while.

James Gillen · July 27, 2012, 03:29:38 AM

Quote from: Sacrosanct;564777Holy....

Do you not get that depictions of people in those books are usually depictions of characters that players would play? A player is going to want to play a Zulu warrior instead of one of the women who culturally do not fight or venture forth. A player is going to want to play a noble or knight instead of a farmer with shit all over him.

Character Classes: Nobleman, Knight, Woman Who Stays in the Castle, Farmer With Shit All Over Him

James Gillen · July 27, 2012, 03:39:04 AM

Quote from: jeff37923;564800OK, thank you.

From what I remember, the Taldans are considered to be a culture that is in the decline in Golarion. Yup, my memory has not failed me.

So, the pic of a native in a vibrant developing culture of dark-skinned humans is racist because it is compared to a culture of decadence and crumbling empires that is white.

I always thought the Taldans were supposed to be analogous to the Spanish (or Romans) who were white if "Mediterranean".

JG

James Gillen · July 27, 2012, 03:39:49 AM

Quote from: One Horse Town;564805Race/Class/Level systems and others that utilise Archetypes etc are all about stereotypes - its what characters in those systems are.

So there's always going to be an argument in relation to real world analogues that some of them are Racist, well, because they are stereotypes.

So, for example...

Zulu warrior or Zulu trader?

Gypsy pedlar or Gypsy Sculptor?

Hungarian Hussar or Hungarian Pedeotrician?

Certain combinations trigger associations that fire the imagination and make you go "oh yeah, cool!"

The fact that they are stereotypical means that some of them can be called racist because of negaitive real-world connotations.

Me? I wanna play a Zulu warrior.

Elven Archer or Elven Dentist?

JG

StormBringer · July 27, 2012, 03:57:05 AM

Quote from: Benoist;565108Killing Orc babies like murderhobos and dressing up their parents like Zulu warriors?

Quote from: CRKrueger;565106Something that was actually racist. Hint, orcs don't qualify.

Ok, how overtly racist? It would literally have to say "This book is racist" on the cover, then have n*gger in the header of every page, with sp*cs as a playable class? Nothing short of that could even be considered to have some degree of racism?

This is still defining what it isn't. We need to find out what it is. What kind of depictions or art would make you say "Ok, this is racist."?

Spike · July 27, 2012, 03:59:38 AM

Quote from: James Gillen;565115Elven Archer or Elven Dentist?

JG

I'll play an Elven Dentist who uses his mad archery skills to pull teeth from 100 yards away. Rapid fire style.

S'mon · July 27, 2012, 04:17:02 AM

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;565042As has been aptly demonstrated in this thread when we talk about "Africans" we are apparently talking exclusively about black sub-Saharan Africans and possibly even more specifically just Bantus because slavery.

Nothing Egyptians did matter unless you are an Afrocentrist that thinks they were Bantus. Egypt doesn't matter, Nubia doesn't matter, and Ethiopia doesn't matter (the latter two of which could be said to be represented by the Garundi in Golarion, and it doesn't matter to anyone calling Golarion racist because all anyone actually cares about are the Bantu-inspired Mwangi).

The Zulu were the last 'great' civilization that spawned specifically from the indigenous people of west Africa.

Hm, I'll check out the Garundi - I'm always looking for Ethiopia analogue stuff I can use.

I think I agree with your general point (except I dislike the use of 'civilisation' to mean 'culture').

I think I would count modern Nigeria as a significant indigenous (though post European contact) Bantu civilisation, it obviously took a lot of stuff from the British, but Nigeria seems to (a) very much dominate much of modern sub-Saharan Africa and (b) maintains a significant economy beyond just oil, notably in shipping. Nigeria also has a very good education system, IME better than Britain and vastly superior to north Africa, the Middle East, or even south Asia.

jeff37923 · July 27, 2012, 04:23:38 AM

Quote from: James Gillen;565113I always thought the Taldans were supposed to be analogous to the Spanish (or Romans) who were white if "Mediterranean".

JG

I don't know, I always hooked on to the "empire in decline" part and thought of Rome when it began turning inward and abandoned the furthest outposts of the Empire.

S'mon · July 27, 2012, 04:28:15 AM

Quote from: John Morrow;565065Yet there are people who feel exactly like that about Wagner or even buying Volkswagens.

My wife is annoyed that our Toyota Avensis is a load of junk. Yesterday she proposed buying a Volkswagen. I couldn't resist:

"Ein Volk! Ein Reich! Ein Wagen!"

S'mon · July 27, 2012, 04:31:24 AM

Quote from: John Morrow;565073The article is about moral reasoning and how "morality may be hardwired into our brains by evolution".

Check out this article:
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/haidt-weird-liberals-righteous-mind-america/

I recently bought the Haidt book, haven't read it yet though. It's competing with the Pathfinder Core Rulebook for attention.

technoextreme · July 27, 2012, 08:47:20 AM

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;565042Nothing Egyptians did matter unless you are an Afrocentrist that thinks they were Bantus. Egypt doesn't matter, Nubia doesn't matter, and Ethiopia doesn't matter (the latter two of which could be said to be represented by the Garundi in Golarion, and it doesn't matter to anyone calling Golarion racist because all anyone actually cares about are the Bantu-inspired Mwangi).

Uhhh.... If you ever actually performed math in your life which given the average education level of the people here it might be possibly you haven't then yeah Egypt does matter.

S'mon · July 27, 2012, 08:54:04 AM

Quote from: technoextreme;565175Uhhh.... If you ever actually performed math in your life which given the average education level of the people here it might be possibly you haven't then yeah Egypt does matter.

Maybe you're thinking of Babylon, or India? Egypt is not noted for its contribution to mathematics; although they clearly got quite good at geometry.

Bedrockbrendan · July 27, 2012, 09:10:36 AM

Quote from: S'mon;565177Maybe you're thinking of Babylon, or India? Egypt is not noted for its contribution to mathematics; although they clearly got quite good at geometry.

I am fuzzy on specific contributions but the Musaeum in Alexandria was a pretty important center of scholarship and learning on a range of subjects from the Ptolemies through much of the Roman empire. Pretty sure Euclid did most of his work in Alexandria. It is Ptolemaic Egypt, so maybe not what people have in mind when they think Egyptians though.

Dimitrios · July 27, 2012, 09:25:52 AM

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;565184I am fuzzy on specific contributions but the Musaeum in Alexandria was a pretty important center of scholarship and learning on a range of subjects from the Ptolemies through much of the Roman empire. Pretty sure Euclid did most of his work in Alexandria. It is Ptolemaic Egypt, so maybe not what people have in mind when they think Egyptians though.

I've found it's surprisingly common for people to have no idea that there is any distinction between Egypt of the Pharaohs and Egypt of the Ptolemys. They just lump them together.