Quote from: The Traveller;564336Do you really believe that some of these "opinions", in particular Ettin's, aren't expressed with malice aforethought? Half the people over on rpgnet are too terrorised to speak out, and most of the other half just don't bother getting involved. I'd have no difficulty whatsoever twisting the balls off the few decriers, in the classical sense, before a judge.

 I agree that they are boneheaded opinions. Don't agree that this is the solution. People should be able to express opinions about games without being sued. I would hate to see the game community embroiled in back and forth libel suits. Much better for those who disagree with posters like ettin to do so with intelligent arguments.

Quote from: MGuy;564292Generic fantasy is generally "racist" all the time. For every boook that states all sentient creatures of X race have a penchant for being violent, greedy, prideful, etc you are basically boiling down a group of imaginary people in general terms. This is edged by by making them essentially another species (goblins, orcs, elves, etc) so you can get by with that without causing too many issues. The thing you can't do without getting noticed is do the same to humans. That's why humans are the everyman. They are the generalists. Because we, as humans, know that we humans vary wildly even within the same cultural group such that generalizing our behaviour would be insulting. This is why Golaria is racist because not only does it do that thing I just mentioned but it does so with stereotypical analogues of real world stereotypes. My favorite is the Mwangi which are obvious primitive African stereotype. You got your regular joe African who's culture never got past clay houses in the savannah. You got your assimilated Africans who are absorbed into whatever culture they happen to be around. You got your distant Africans who reject their old "primitive" culture in an attempt to be more modern. You got your slaver Africans who worship evil gods and enslave and trade their own kind. All of them have real world, stereotypical analogues with them.

Yes, it's racist. Obviously so. However, some people might wave it away saying that all the cultures are boiled down to stereotypes. I'd say yes, that's a necessity and something that's likely to happen when writing a generic fantasy setting.But then I'd have to ask why use that particular stereotype for the African people? Why not have them be like the Taldians or Cheliaxians? Why are the black people stuck with the african stereotype? Because its lazy writing and those kinds of associations are easy.

Is it a big deal? No. Probably not. Most people won't even think about it twice because most people already make that association. People stereotyping other people is something that happens everyday. Whether or not you do it by race, culture, sexuality, gender, whatever. Because the people who wrote upp Golaria went the lazy route and just copypasted various real world stereotypical cultures then they are bound to have a few people notice and call them out on it. From there people do the "Racism" dance. You get your deniers, the people who don't care, the people who think talking about it makes it more racist, the apologists, the people who are legitimately offended, etc etc. But its all a bunch of hoopla that isn't going to amount to anything really.

Sorry I don't see it? Why is using parts of africas rich history as basis for your fantasy cultures racist? It seems to me that Golarion have taken parts of the history from that part of the world and built upon that to try to make something interesting. Every country / culture have their differences. Its not like all so called vikings were marauders out to rape and pillage poor irish priests and monks where they? No they had farmers and fishermen and woodsmen and all kinds of variation. Just as the people in africa had their bushmen and traders and so on. Why go away from showing that diversity when it can bring much more depth to a setting. But again as so many others have stated in this thread if you want to find something wrong you can.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;564342aww.  They shouldn't.  It's just SA goons trolling for lulz/leftojustice.

You want to know what the sad fact is.  Its not trolling.  In your crazy delusional conspiratorial world its trolling but the reality is that it isn't.

Quote from: technoextreme;564348You want to know what the sad fact is.  Its not trolling.  In your crazy delusional conspiratorial world its trolling but the reality is that it isn't.

Ha yeah, OK, keep chasing that dream.

Quote from: Melan;564333I am really sorry I have to tell you this, delver, but calling RPGNet "the Big Throbbing Purple" is offensive to the penis community.

flaccidpurple is closer to the mark

Quote from: thedungeondelver;564350Ha yeah, OK, keep chasing that dream.

Uhh.... I'm pretty sure I've actually called it racist quite a few times myself there.  In fact I've actually said the same thing in regards to Wizards of the Coast.

Quote from: jeff37923;564314Thank you for proving my point about using the most simplistic and inclusive definition of the term 'racist'.

Not to mention the most simplistic and inclusive definition of the term "stereotyping".  

Creating a fantasy culture that mimics a real world culture isn't stereotyping or racist if it that culture actually existed.  Many cultures embraced murder, sacrifice, cannibalism, rape, murder, all kinds of atrocities.  Accurately placing one of those cultures into a fantasy game doesn't make it racist because you find it uncomfortable.

If you're claiming the Golarian cultures white, black, red, brown, yellow, green or purple aren't representative of an actual culture, then prove it and show your work.

If the Tea Ceremony culture was black and the Tribal Slaver culture was yellow would that make everything ok?  I suspect so, which means the whole thing is horseshit.

But you have to wonder when the thread starter himself do not participate more than 3-4 posts after the op and then mostly to utter his amazement over the length of the thread and then go on about his threats to his person...

I would have thought that someone who starts a thread should be more active and invested in it instead of letting it run wild and just observe the outcome. For me that screams hidden agenda and even more so when it happens ever so often.

Quote from: nitril;564357But you have to wonder when the thread starter himself do not participate more than 3-4 posts after the op and then mostly to utter his amazement over the length of the thread and then go on about his threats to his person...

It's a Classic trolling tactic.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;564346I would hate to see the game community embroiled in back and forth libel suits.

A hell of a lot more forth than back, I reckon. Its not possible to present intelligent and well reasoned arguments on rpgnet, since the mods are part of the terrorised co-opted.

Quote from: nitril;564357But you have to wonder when the thread starter himself do not participate more than 3-4 posts after the op and then mostly to utter his amazement over the length of the thread and then go on about his threats to his person...

I would have thought that someone who starts a thread should be more active and invested in it instead of letting it run wild and just observe the outcome. For me that screams hidden agenda and even more so when it happens ever so often.

Bingo.

Quote from: Benoist;564358It's a Classic trolling tactic.

True! Fucking idiotic thing to do!

Quote from: nitril;564357But you have to wonder when the thread starter himself do not participate more than 3-4 posts after the op and then mostly to utter his amazement over the length of the thread and then go on about his threats to his person...

Well probably because he has a life and with the way that thread insanely ballooned it really isn't that entirely unexpected.

QuoteA hell of a lot more forth than back, I reckon.

You do realize that depending on the state you can successfully counter-sue for damages because the lawsuit is nothing more than an attempt at censorship right???

Quote from: The Traveller;564361A hell of a lot more forth than back, I reckon. Its not possible to present intelligent and well reasoned arguments on rpgnet, since the mods are part of the terrorised co-opted.


Bingo.

I agree. That site looks pretty difficult for open discussion. But we are free to express our opinions here and in other venues. I still would not support libel suits.

Quote from: technoextreme;564364Well probably because he has a life.
?

Making other people miserable and starting up shitstorms?

Nuanced, sophisticated, and original RPG settings based on sound anthropology have been tried. Harn, Talislanta, and Tekumel come to mind.

They've all been commercial failures, because most RPG players don't want to game in those sorts of worlds. They're regarded as either too mundane, too narrow, or too weird.

Golarian is a kitchen sink setting. If it hews close to stereotypes, that's because Paizo wants to make broadly popular products. If Golarion was as realistic as Harn, it would have real trouble hosting a variety of adventures. If it were as original as Talislanta, it would alienate many customers. If it were as strange as Tekumel, it wouldn't be commercially viable at all.