Quote from: ForgottenF on January 25, 2023, 09:49:24 AM
I've never looked at Pathfinder 2e. Is it that much more complicated than D&D 5th? Pathfinder 1e was arguably less complicated than 3.5 (although also arguably more in some places), but people played both games for years before the VTT boom hit.

PF2 is much more fiddly than 5e. Lots of the +1's and +2's to this and that that barely affect probability but need to be tracked. The classes themselves generally have at least one choice (often more) to make every time you gain a level (vs. most build choices being locked in by level 3 in 5e).

I'm not saying it's impossible to make the jump. Just that it is a different experience.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 25, 2023, 10:53:22 AM

PF2 is much more fiddly than 5e. Lots of the +1's and +2's to this and that that barely affect probability but need to be tracked. The classes themselves generally have at least one choice (often more) to make every time you gain a level (vs. most build choices being locked in by level 3 in 5e).

I'm not saying it's impossible to make the jump. Just that it is a different experience.

Thats good to know.  I was thinking about eventually switchting to PF2 but I am looking for something less complicated, not more complicated or just as complicated.

Quote from: GhostNinja on January 25, 2023, 10:59:30 AM
Thats good to know.  I was thinking about eventually switchting to PF2 but I am looking for something less complicated, not more complicated or just as complicated.

Check out Worlds Without Number. Its free and simple and good.

I am sticking to 5e as it is a good system once you remove a few warts.

That and wotc is kicking it to the curb to follow their edition treadmill dream.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 24, 2023, 10:56:00 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on January 24, 2023, 01:06:24 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 24, 2023, 08:53:36 AM
Helveczia (probably hybridized with Lamentations of the Flame Princess)

Not gonna lie, that sounds awesome!

Let's hope. My initial thought was to just run straight Helveczia and convert some Lamentations modules, since many of them are for the same time period and region. I figure that's a good match-up as well, since Lamentations adventures lean a bit too much towards being meat-grinders for my taste, but Helveczia PCs seem slightly more powerful than LOTFP ones, so it probably evens out. But I run my games on Roll20, and unfortunately there's no Helveczia character sheet for it (and I don't know dick about coding), so I'll probably have to use the Lamentations character sheet, and mix the two systems up. The only real downside is I'll probably have to use the LOTFP save system, which is fine on it's own, but the Helveczia save system is one of its more unique features.

Looking at my copy of Lion and Dragon, I think it would also be a great "fantasy sourcebook" for Helveczia.

You can even have advancement after level 6 by using the L&D advancement rolls with minor adjustments. (Like instead of +1d8 HP you just give the PC +2 HP.)

The spells for Helveczia work more like trad D&D, but the additional L&D flavor adds in that medieval feel - and the two bestiaries complement each other.

Most any B/X adventure could be used pretty much as is in such a mash-up, just subbing the monster stats around as needed.

It's long term play seems that it would be a nice middle ground power level wise between L&D PC vulnerability, and high level BX/AD&D.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 25, 2023, 12:02:09 PM

Check out Worlds Without Number. Its free and simple and good.

Great.  I will give it a look over.

Thanks for the suggestion

The reason I advocate Worlds/Stars Without Number is because I consider it the true inheritor of D&D, and 5e is a crappy pretender.
I could list all the ways WWM is better if there is interest.

Quote from: Omega on January 25, 2023, 02:12:55 PM
I am sticking to 5e as it is a good system once you remove a few warts.

That and wotc is kicking it to the curb to follow their edition treadmill dream.

I think they will come to regret their current course of action.  It will be a legendary crash and burn, in the history of printed tabletop RPGs.  It will be difficult, for anyone to ever top this fiasco.

However, I don't see any need to criticize someone for running a game they already own.  Rock on.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 25, 2023, 05:18:08 PM
The reason I advocate Worlds/Stars Without Number is because I consider it the true inheritor of D&D, and 5e is a crappy pretender.
I could list all the ways WWM is better if there is interest.

I would be interested in that

I have not done the pure fantasy gaming thing for quite a while (I'm more of a sci-fi, horror, urban fantasy player.)  So, my go-to fantasy game would be Amber Diceless.

The D&D Rules Cyclopedia. It remains the standard of what running/playing D&D is. All the BECMI goodness with none of the carcinogenic wokeness of WOTC. Doubt me? Try it with your 5e group and see 

Quote from: Crusader X on January 25, 2023, 06:16:40 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 25, 2023, 05:18:08 PM
The reason I advocate Worlds/Stars Without Number is because I consider it the true inheritor of D&D, and 5e is a crappy pretender.
I could list all the ways WWM is better if there is interest.

I would be interested in that

Seconded.

Quote from: Theory of Games on January 25, 2023, 07:26:34 PM
The D&D Rules Cyclopedia. It remains the standard of what running/playing D&D is. All the BECMI goodness with none of the carcinogenic wokeness of WOTC. Doubt me? Try it with your 5e group and see 

I have thought about ordering a copy, a few different times; but I've repeatedly heard that the Thief class got nerfed?  I own the White Box FMAG homage to OD&D, Blueholme homage to Holmes Basic, and the OSE homage to classic BX.  I suppose it seems a bit strange, that I haven't gotten the Rules Cyclopedia; even if only for completion?

Quote from: Crusader X on January 25, 2023, 06:16:40 PMI would be interested in that

OK, so here I go:

I posit that 5e put more effort into 'looking' like D&D instead of really learning from its ancestor editions.

Classes:
WWN has 4 primary classes: Mage, Expert, and Warrior. There is also Adventurer that allows you to mix two class aspects together (but each aspect is weaker than a focused class).
Class Features & Edges:
Base class features are mostly minimalistic but effective. Mostly things you get at level 1 and have a simple scale. Everybody has access to a feat-like system called Foci . Foci are significant and are never 3e-style feat trees, usually having a base function, and then an upgraded function. This means that Foci are not optional like in 5e, but it also means classes are simpler affairs without twiddly useless crossover abilities like in 5e as well.

If you want a 'Rogue', you can just be a Warrior or Expert with the Assasin Foci (or a mix of the two with Adventurer). No need to mess around with 8 classes to replicate specific character expressions.

Levels, Skills, & Maths
There are only 10 levels, but it's compressed more value into said levels. Outside of attack rolls, the system uses a 2d6 system for its skill rolls, which makes smaller values much more meaningful.
In place of a +2->6 for a single skill over 20 ****ing levels, you can upgrade a skill from 0->+4 over the course of 10, which has WAY more significance mathematically. There are Edges that also give buffs as well.
Attributes also only range from -2 to +2, but again with the bounded nature of a 2d6 its much more significant then the range of -4->+4
Oh yeah, there is a skill system with skill points. It's not complicated like in 3e D&D. The Expert gets more skill points.
Magic
Magic spell categories have been compressed from 1->9 to 1->5 (so Spells of slot 1-2 in 5e are just category 1 in WWN). Magic has been rebalanced (to address the caster dominance that still exists in 5e) by just more specifically custom spell lists that don't exist to be a solution to every kind of problem.
Saving throws follow the scaling systems of 2AD&D, instead of the equal scaling of 3e. There are still only 3 saves.
Mages also have only 1 spell slot category, they just can use those slots for higher-level spells as they level up. So a Mage goes from 1->5 spell slots over 10 levels. Spells are always very powerful, so each spell slot is generally significant.

However, as this is a Harsh nerf, to give mages something else to do, they get a pool of Effort which is separate from slots. Effort is committed to lesser effects (like blasting cantrips, sense magic, counterspells, etc). Depending on the effect, effort comes back faster or slower. Weak effects (like say in combat blast attacks) allow their committed effort to return instantly. Medium effects return after the end of the encounter while more powerful effects only return after a days rest.

There is also very good advice for adding your own spells, but the existing spell lists are pretty good.

I have other stuff to add but I think im running out of space.

Ok more WWN goodness:

Advanced Class Options:
OK so I covered the basic classes, but the Delux Edition book comes with Arts, which functions like half classes to be taken with Adventurer.
So if you say want to be a 'Ranger' with a Companion, you take the Adventurer class, and then a Llaigisan Beastmaster art.
This grants some class features over said 10 levels, in ways to upgrade and customize a pet.
And depending on the other class you take, you work a different manifestation.

Warrior/Beastmaster could be a combat-style ranger with a wolf-mount.
Expert/Beastmaster could be a thief with a ferret companion.
Mage/Beastmaster could vary depending on the mage type. But a classic example is a druid.

There are arts for more complex things that Foci can't cover (shapeshifting, or classical cleric abilities), as well as ways to introduce alternate mechanics.
Adunic Invokers are mages without effort pools (mostly), but instead have function off a spell-point system. Lower level spells cost less then higher level spells to cast and such.
Customization:
WWN is truly customizable, not fake customizable like 5e. Its default assumption is of hardy, but mundane-ish heroes. You can use the Delux book for heroic classes that are tougher and have more options. You can go even higher with very heroic Legates which get even more advanced abilities. Or you can grab options to make healing sparser and slower.

There are also a ton of other stuff, but im tired.