Quote from: 3catcircus on January 23, 2023, 09:49:55 PM
I dunno. Part of the problem I have with 5e is the nature of the basics of class and subclass. It's like they've taken 3.x, dumbed it down, and then said "Ta daa!!"

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. If you're saying the way the classes/subclasses are presented is shit, I fully agree. WotC has entirely lost the plot when it comes to the purpose of classes (and to be fair, so had TSR). I would completely redo classes so that they served more as "roles" within the game (hence, why you don't need more than 4 or 5 of them), then use subclasses to provide "flavor." So you'd have one magic-user class, but then chose between a combat-caster, healer, summoner, etc. I'd introduce a "Leader" class which would serve to buff allies, and that would sub into a battle commander, muse (i.e., bard), apothecary, etc.

5e isn't without it's problems. That was never my statement.

QuoteIt's no different than taking THAC0, reversing the negative sign to get BAB, and declaring it a new thing.

Well, it was certainly a much easier way to address the mechanic. I'm an Ascending AC guy all the way. I got started on AD&D in the 90s, and THAC0 was what it was, and looking back, my god it was shit.

Just get Worlds without Number. Its OSR with effort, with some of the best ideas from all the editions of D&D. Its highly customizable.
It also doesn't fall under OGL, but is compatible with it.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 23, 2023, 01:03:07 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 23, 2023, 12:22:13 PMI'm tempted.  But free time is not a thing I have.  Still, David Guyll, writer of Dungeons and Delvers said the same to me in private emails.

I didn't start out trying to write an RPG, I just made tweak after tweak until the whole thing was different. But the thing about writing an RPG for yourself is that you don't need to write it to the standards of a published RPG. You only need to flesh out the first three levels or so of each class and write only first level spells, etc. Your magic item and monster list will grow naturally as you write adventures, etc.

Just write enough to get you by the next session or two and rely heavily on player input for what parts of the game to expand.

QuoteBut do we need another not-Star Wars, but it's Star Wars RPG using his dice pool system?

D6 Space is the SW RPG without the SW IP. But you are correct that we don't NEED any more RPGs. However, science fiction is a bit different from most other genres in that it varies so much. A Star Wars game, a Star Trek game, and an Alien game will all be radically different in tone. And new sub-genre's about being created all the time; like the Expanse.

Also, D6 Fantasy was part of the OpenD6 release. OpenD6 is a toolbox system, you can do about anything, other than probably supers with it. Want to add classes--easy, a class is a bucket of skills that are advanced together. In fact, that might even get you a better class based game if you like the old open play style, because the characters in play justify new classes as a new "bucket of skills with special abilities" through their actions. The fighter builds a keep, and decides to build a new militia--and if you want to create a militia of Newtonians along with a gish bodyguard class, easy to do. Does a player want to introduce gunpowers, start with alchemy, when he hits the difficulty targets through whatever research rules you set, create a firearms skill. Whatever you want to do, D6 has your back.

It is OGL 1.0a when it was released as an open system, but I'm not sure that WOTC would be able to sue you for anything you might publish, because its not their IP, though I'm not sure how deauthorization, if legal affects things.

Quote from: Toran Ironfinder on January 24, 2023, 12:09:37 AM
It is OGL 1.0a when it was released as an open system, but I'm not sure that WOTC would be able to sue you for anything you might publish, because its not their IP, though I'm not sure how deauthorization, if legal affects things.

My understanding is this:
If you created a wholly original system, using no OGC, then released portions of it under the OGL 1.0(a), then deauthorization of the license would just mean your content is no longer Open Content (i.e., it becomes your sole property again). However, anyone else who used the OGL to source your OGC would now be violating YOUR copyright.

In other words, if WotC deauthorizes 1.0(a), they would be FORCING a conflict between two (or more) companies completely unrelated to themselves. This is the legal equivalent of spreading rumors to get two people to fight. I'm unsure if such a situation exists within the current OGL, but I'm sure this would be grounds for summary judgment that the OGL cannot be revoked or deauthorized.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 23, 2023, 05:43:11 PM

From what I remember, Palladium Fantasy has AC, "Hit Dice" (Rolling dice to add hit points every level), and Hit Points that go up. Am I remembering wrong, or is it the way that D&D/5e does it specifically that you dislike?

The Palladium system has Armor Rating, but it just diverts the damage into the armor if the attack rolls below the A.R.  Also, the armor rating goes down -2 A.R. points as the armor gets to 50%, and -2 A.R. more at 33% of its starting structure points. 

Hit points do go up every level, but not by much.  A PC can start with 30-50 Structural Damage Capacity and 10 hit points, and end with 30-50 SDC and 30 HP.  Why are there two numbers?  SDC is the movie injuries that heal by tomorrow, but hit points should really need bedrest and a doctor.  It's also a way to poison a huge strongman with hundreds of SDC like a superhero, and some critical hits bypass SDC and go straight to HP.

The real progression in Palladium are the strike, parry, & dodge bonuses to the hit/avoid opposed rolls.  Unlike D&D, in Palladium you and the GM both roll a D20 when attacking.  Strike vs Parry, or Strike vs Dodge, highest roll wins, defender wins any ties.  Those three bonuses go up as you level, and we had level 10-12 characters with +9 to strike and +10 or even more to parry. 

Well, I don;'t do D&D anyway.  I have my own oldschool FRPG that I play.  But, that game's company is on the Red List, so,I don't want to encourage people to play it.  Before the move to the red list, I purchased,  (and even contributed to and playtested) enough material for the game to last me an entire lifetime, so I'm good.

Like most people here, I already don't play D&D. Currently I'm playing in Hyperborea and Modiphius Conan games, and running Dragon Warriors. Planned campaigns include Index Card RPG, Helveczia (probably hybridized with Lamentations of the Flame Princess), and either Stars Without Number or Warpstar! (haven't decided which yet).

If the question is where are the people who quit 5e over this going to go? Pathfinder first, probably. That seems to be where all the big YouTubers/"influencers" are leaning, and they'll take their audiences with them. Behind that, probably Savage Worlds.

My bigger concern with the OGL debacle right now is how it's going to affect VTTs. If Roll20 and/or Foundry go down, that is going to seriously affect my games. I run my game on Roll20 which seems to be likely to survive, since most people think they have a backdoor deal with WOTC, but I'm looking into contingency plans anyway. If Foundry goes down, I would expect that to be the end of my Hyperborea campaign. The DM on that one has put an insane amount of work into the VTT side of it, and I could see him deciding it just isn't worth re-doing it somewhere else.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 24, 2023, 08:53:36 AM
Like most people here, I already don't play D&D. Currently I'm playing in Hyperborea and Modiphius Conan games, and running Dragon Warriors. Planned campaigns include Index Card RPG, Helveczia (probably hybridized with Lamentations of the Flame Princess), and either Stars Without Number or Warpstar! (haven't decided which yet).

If the question is where are the people who quit 5e over this going to go? Pathfinder first, probably. That seems to be where all the big YouTubers/"influencers" are leaning, and they'll take their audiences with them. Behind that, probably Savage Worlds.

My bigger concern with the OGL debacle right now is how it's going to affect VTTs. If Roll20 and/or Foundry go down, that is going to seriously affect my games. I run my game on Roll20 which seems to be likely to survive, since most people think they have a backdoor deal with WOTC, but I'm looking into contingency plans anyway. If Foundry goes down, I would expect that to be the end of my Hyperborea campaign. The DM on that one has put an insane amount of work into the VTT side of it, and I could see him deciding it just isn't worth re-doing it somewhere else.

All Foundry needs is bonafide non-OGL system that is similar enough to the d20 system and willing to put out some character sheets where you can rename and link things and there's not much Hasbro could do other than obvious anti-competitive lawfare against them. I mean, its not like Hasbro has an up and running tabletop with all the features they want to ban other VTTs from using to claim infringement.

Frankly, if I were Foundry, I'd look at that list of things Hasbro wants to bully other VTTs out of doing and say "Challenge Accepted!" and bring them all to market before OneD&D's tabletop is in open beta. "They're infringing on our concept" means crap when someone else got there first. Advertise those features far and wide and if you're not on any OGL and Hasbro risks a bench judgement over anticompetitive nonsense.

ETA: the other thing is Foundry allows homebew modules/plug-ins and doesn't require you to run on their servers to use it. If they just don't host D&D modules/plug-ins directly on its site I don't think Hasbro would have a leg to stand on.

The head of D&D digital thinks ttrpg gamers and video gamers are the same thing so he doesn't realize the degree of creativity and problem solving the community applies to obstacles like this.

My answers for me personally:

Barbarians of Lemuria Mythic Edition

Hyperborea 3e

Old School Essentials

Savage Worlds

The One Ring 2e if you want to game in Middle Earth

Numenera - I dig the system and it is one of the best settings ever

So, first... I'm sorry. I was in a bitchy mood earlier, for no good reason.

To try to be a useful participant in this conversation...

I play a lot of games. I play a ton of Shadowrun, for example, mostly second or third edition. I still play Original/20th World of Darkness games. I play a lot of Call of Cthulhu, Delta Green, The Laundry Files... All sort of the same thing, I suppose. Sometimes I play Eclipse Phase, or Jovian Chronicles, or Rifts, or...

Well, the point is, I play a ton of games that aren't even remotely D&D.

When I'm in the mood for "D&D", in terms of name-brand D&D product, I usually play 2nd Edition. I also get my Fantasy Fix from Harnmaster, Warhammer Fantasy, or even occasionally Pathfinder. Sometimes I play OSR games; I'm partial to OSE, but I've played others.

My homebrew Fantasy campaign+system, you know, that personal heartbreaker project that most GMs have and have been tweaking and growing for many years? It started with 2E D&D, but I've blended in some elements from Hackmaster, Harnmaster, WFRP, and some of my own ideas.

So, I didn't like D&D at all for a long time. After playing with Basic-era games, I thought it became too complicated (3e) and just a minis game (4e). The OSR and then 5e is what brought me back.

During my non-D&D years, I played everything: GURPS, SW, M&M, UA, CoC... I actually enjoyed knowing new systems. And I think that this is important to find out your tastes.

I played 5e for a while but now I'm basically done with D&D. I play with my own system* (which is very much D&D-ish, a homage to Moldvay's Basic with bits form DCC, 3e and 5e).

I find D&D-ish stuff is the easiest for my player since they are familiar with the mechanics.

Unfortunately, my game is OGL so I'll probably have to rewrite it soon for a new edition.

If I didn't have my own game, I'd probably be playing Shadow of the Demon Lord**. It is an amazing game that rights many of 5e's wrongs (although it has a few flaws).

* Dark Fantasy Basic - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/229046/Dark-Fantasy-Basic--Players-Guide
** Here are my impressions and review: https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2022/06/shadow-of-demon-lord-review-i-book.html

This decade in addition to 5e I have played James Bond (the old VG version), Ultraviolet Grasslands, OSE, Dead Reign, ACKS, and Savage Worlds.

Right now I'm looking at ACKS, Fantasy Craft, Magic World, and Mythras to start a game after I move next month.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 23, 2023, 05:43:11 PM

From what I remember, Palladium Fantasy has AC, "Hit Dice" (Rolling dice to add hit points every level), and Hit Points that go up. Am I remembering wrong, or is it the way that D&D/5e does it specifically that you dislike?

Pretty much, especially 1st edition. In 2nd hit points don't go up but SDC does. It has effective AC in that a 4+ hits, but armor takes the hits unless you roll over its armor value.

Quote from: Batjon on January 24, 2023, 10:35:34 AM
My answers for me personally:

Barbarians of Lemuria Mythic Edition

I love Barbarians and I have this editon.  I havent played it or run it in awhile but I would love to do so.  Something to consider.

Quote from: PulpHerb on January 24, 2023, 11:21:00 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 23, 2023, 05:43:11 PM

From what I remember, Palladium Fantasy has AC, "Hit Dice" (Rolling dice to add hit points every level), and Hit Points that go up. Am I remembering wrong, or is it the way that D&D/5e does it specifically that you dislike?

Pretty much, especially 1st edition. In 2nd hit points don't go up but SDC does. It has effective AC in that a 4+ hits, but armor takes the hits unless you roll over its armor value.

Also of note is that in Palladium's first game; Mechanoid Invasion; AR worked exactly like AC. To do any damage to a character's armor you had to exceed its AR and then deplete all the armor's SDC before damaging the character's hit points.

This is still how "Robotic/Vehicle AR" works in its SDC settings.

Another artifact of the original way AR worked could be found in some of the early edition particle beam rules that got ported in direct from Mechanoids (ex. 1st edition Heroes Unlimited). They had an oddity where instead of the usual base 4+ to hit, they needed a 12+ to even hit and do half damage and would only do full damage with a 16+.

In all the post-Mechanoid settings where AR became the target number to bypass armor entirely (with anything between 4 and the AR damaging the armor) this made particle beams fairly weak.

BUT in Mechanoid Invasion most armors had AR's of 17-19 to even damage them at all and the particle beam ignored that to use its own numbers of 12 or 16... making them an extremely potent and powerful weapon.

The relevant bit of what I bring up here though is that Palladium has had, among its available rulesets, something that works exactly like d20 System's roll vs. TN mechanic independent of and predating the d20 System by roughly two decades.

So long as you use your own words to describe the process, Hasbro can't even pretend to claim infringement over the d20 vs. target number and roll various polyhedrals + modifiers for damage that is taken off a hit point total. Palladium Books was using that mechanic back when D&D was still using to-hit matrices/tables.