This predates the OGL. Lots of people don't like D&D 5E. In my case I just don't like the rules for AC, hit dice, hit points that go up (AC should go up), and Vancian magic are all reasons to avoid D&D.
Is it still Old School Essentials? Is that the standard response to, "What else is there?"
I would steer people to Palladium Books Fantasy, especially 1E. Sure, it's got quirks like the stats for shields are not in the equipment section, but written in the proficiency skill description. 2E continues that oddity too, because it's tradition?!?
Or lots of OSR games that are free. Dragon Warriors is another I'm starting to warm up to, and currently pay-what-you-want on DT-RPG.
I don't think this question has changed. Avoiding a game with the old 1.0a OGL in it seems petty, as that still isn't a thing. In fact, I say get your alternate games now before they go away.
I think that, unfortunately, there hasn't been a ton of competition that the current generation is players is aware of beyond Pathfinder if they only hang out on the WotC farm.
Even those who venture off the plantation to Paizo or ENW are only exposed to PF or Level Up A5E, for the most part.
My choices would be Rules Cyclopedia or 1e AD&D. For those without access to that, one of the OSR retroclones is more readily available.
That having been said, I'm all for exposure to non-d20 rules sets also - HARP (Role master may be too overwhelming going to it directly), Runequest, Harn, and WFRP. For more d20-esque but definitely differently flavored, DCC or LotFP may be good choices.
For those willing to put in the work to parse the poorly edited content, I loves me some Mythus/Dangerous Journeys - there is a beautiful system hidden inside, and the campaign setting is easily accessible to people who understand a little of real Earth geography.
Or you could choose to open the aperture and play something other than medieval fantasy type stuff.
Do you actually read anything here? Or do you just post your latest slant on your favorites over and over, as some slightly different way to say it springs to mind? Because most of the posts you are starting have been well covered, and often recently.
Or more to the point, why do you ask questions if you don't listen to the answers?
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 23, 2023, 09:05:52 AM
This predates the OGL. Lots of people don't like D&D 5E. In my case I just don't like the rules for AC, hit dice, hit points that go up (AC should go up), and Vancian magic are all reasons to avoid D&D.
We get it. You don't like D&D. You play other games. Is that your entire personality?
I need to make a song along the lines of Lehrer's 'Element Song' but with all the RPGs in it.
I'm going to pretend you're serious and answer with something equally as serious as I think you're actually being;
If you want something 5e-ish that is not OGL, then you should switch to MY game; Ruins & Realms; once it's released (art scheduled for completion in mid-March... so release should still be ahead of the OGL1.666).
All the d20 rolls and options for non-Tolkein expy races you enjoyed from 5e, but with better mechanics and easier GM-side tools for encounter-building and with a lower price point.
Quote from: Bruwulf on January 23, 2023, 10:20:30 AM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 23, 2023, 09:05:52 AM
This predates the OGL. Lots of people don't like D&D 5E. In my case I just don't like the rules for AC, hit dice, hit points that go up (AC should go up), and Vancian magic are all reasons to avoid D&D.
We get it. You don't like D&D. You play other games. Is that your entire personality?
I don't hate it. Hell, until this OGL nonsense I had a good opinion of WotC. It just wasn't for me.
Now it seems even being tangentially associated with them is poison. But OSR games shouldn't be punished for what WotC does.
Like I said, the one OSR that "seemed" above the others was Old School Essentials. Is that still the case?
Just curious what everyone is up to now. My guess is everyone will actually keep playing 5E.
Quote from: Bruwulf on January 23, 2023, 10:20:30 AM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 23, 2023, 09:05:52 AM
This predates the OGL. Lots of people don't like D&D 5E. In my case I just don't like the rules for AC, hit dice, hit points that go up (AC should go up), and Vancian magic are all reasons to avoid D&D.
We get it. You don't like D&D. You play other games. Is that your entire personality?
Sort of, yes? Maybe?
To put it into context I've been spending time digging around the OSR scene looking for the least D&D styled game out there that still is advertised as OSR. Sometimes they're so far out there I want know what the author thinks is OSR about their game.
Hell, I'm not even a fantasy player at heart. My main games used to be sci-fi. Rifts. RoboTech, and D6 Star Wars.
This OGL blowup does make me think I'm a bit harsh on the OSR and D&D 3rd party products. But, yes. I'm an outsider to that scene.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 23, 2023, 10:35:37 AM
Just curious what everyone is up to now. My guess is everyone will actually keep playing 5E.
I considered switching to something different due to the whole OGL mess. I have deciced I am too far into the game I am running to do so. I had seriously considered Pathfinder second edition (I am going to read it and may up the way switch to it) but for right now I am going to use the 5e books I have.
WOTC already has my money. I wont given them any more money and continue to get my money's worth out of the books I have.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 23, 2023, 10:49:11 AM
To put it into context I've been spending time digging around the OSR scene looking for the least D&D styled game out there that still is advertised as OSR. Sometimes they're so far out there I want know what the author thinks is OSR about their game.
Try Sarah Newton's
Monsters & Magic--FATE flesh on an OSR skeleton.
Unless you're dead-set on running d20 in some other form, I continue to the bang the drum of Savage Worlds.
With the advent of Savage Worlds Pathfinder as an official brand and flavor of d20 fully translated to Savage Worlds, everyone has a *very* easy template to play D&D on the Savage Worlds chassis.
With the Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion out now - you can *fully* customize your Savage Worlds fantasy games to effectively run any kind of Fantasy game you want. The natural scalability and flexibility of the system will let you create just about anything you need. Translating any d20 content, regardless of flavor, is pretty easy. You can (and I have) picked up 1e/2e content, 5e AP's, Pathfinder material and used it all on the fly without any problem in Savage Worlds.
It's completely non-OGL, it gives no money to WotC, it introduces you to an extremely cool system that handles *far* more than just D&D fantasy. It plays faster, scales *way* higher in playability (high level D&D play is a breeze), and it has none of the issues that d20 traditionally has.
It is *not* perfect. There are quibbles that Savage Worlds enthusiasts will debate, but it's *nothing* like the knock-down drag outs that d20 Tribalists do. And literally all of the "issues" are easily tweakable to be rendered irrelevant.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 23, 2023, 09:05:52 AM
This predates the OGL. Lots of people don't like D&D 5E. In my case I just don't like the rules for AC, hit dice, hit points that go up (AC should go up), and Vancian magic are all reasons to avoid D&D.
If you are that particular about what you like then why not just create your own game? My OD&D game doesn't have armor class, vancian magic, or the six normal ability scores.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 23, 2023, 11:43:20 AM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 23, 2023, 09:05:52 AM
This predates the OGL. Lots of people don't like D&D 5E. In my case I just don't like the rules for AC, hit dice, hit points that go up (AC should go up), and Vancian magic are all reasons to avoid D&D.
If you are that particular about what you like then why not just create your own game? My OD&D game doesn't have armor class, vancian magic, or the six normal ability scores.
I'm tempted. But free time is not a thing I have. Still, David Guyll, writer of Dungeons and Delvers said the same to me in private emails.
But do we need another not-Star Wars, but it's Star Wars RPG using his dice pool system?
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 23, 2023, 12:22:13 PMI'm tempted. But free time is not a thing I have. Still, David Guyll, writer of Dungeons and Delvers said the same to me in private emails.
I didn't start out trying to write an RPG, I just made tweak after tweak until the whole thing was different. But the thing about writing an RPG for yourself is that you don't need to write it to the standards of a published RPG. You only need to flesh out the first three levels or so of each class and write only first level spells, etc. Your magic item and monster list will grow naturally as you write adventures, etc.
Just write enough to get you by the next session or two and rely heavily on player input for what parts of the game to expand.
QuoteBut do we need another not-Star Wars, but it's Star Wars RPG using his dice pool system?
D6 Space is the SW RPG without the SW IP. But you are correct that we don't NEED any more RPGs. However, science fiction is a bit different from most other genres in that it varies so much. A Star Wars game, a Star Trek game, and an Alien game will all be radically different in tone. And new sub-genre's about being created all the time; like the Expanse.
Well, there is still MAZES & MINOTAURS
http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/revised.html
Quote from: tenbones on January 23, 2023, 11:18:21 AM
it introduces you to an extremely cool system that handles *far* more than just D&D fantasy. It plays faster, scales *way* higher in playability (high level D&D play is a breeze), and it has none of the issues that d20 traditionally has.
I agree 100%. I love Savage Worlds to death and when SWADE came out I backed it at $250 for the full kit and kaboodle. Worth it.
Quote from: Greentongue on January 23, 2023, 01:30:13 PM
Well, there is still MAZES & MINOTAURS
http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/revised.html
Thank you for pointing this out. I am downloading it now and I am taking a look (Although I am not the OP of this thread).
For my D&D/classic fantasy/OSR fix, I use Castles & Crusades. Great game, great company.
I also love Mythras, and have been quietly working on some stuff for that, as well. The combat system and iteration of d100 (the continuation of RQ6) is absolutely fantastic.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 23, 2023, 09:05:52 AM
This predates the OGL. Lots of people don't like D&D 5E. In my case I just don't like the rules for AC, hit dice, hit points that go up (AC should go up), and Vancian magic are all reasons to avoid D&D.
Is it still Old School Essentials? Is that the standard response to, "What else is there?"
I would steer people to Palladium Books Fantasy, especially 1E. Sure, it's got quirks like the stats for shields are not in the equipment section, but written in the proficiency skill description. 2E continues that oddity too, because it's tradition?!?
Or lots of OSR games that are free. Dragon Warriors is another I'm starting to warm up to, and currently pay-what-you-want on DT-RPG.
I don't think this question has changed. Avoiding a game with the old 1.0a OGL in it seems petty, as that still isn't a thing. In fact, I say get your alternate games now before they go away.
Godbound.
Failing that, Quixalted Extended.
Failing that, Burning Wheel.
I see your Palladium, and I raise you Savage Worlds.
That being said...
I don't dislike 5e as a system. I dislike the bloat and politics that surround it. Give me a core 5e game with a custom homebrew setting and I'll bring the dice and beer. Unfortunately, that's hardly what I ever see, so I simply don't play 5e. (For full disclosure, I moved out to the sticks a little more than a year ago and there aren't really any gamers that I know of, let alone a FLGS, so all my gaming is now done through PbP.) So many of the 5e games I see are advertised as "all official content allowed" and running a pre-gen adventure that everyone who signs up has probably played before. I never jumped onto the PF bandwagon, despite being hard into 3e/3.5 in the early-mid 2000s (I don't even own PF for Savage Worlds), so I don't consider that game an alternative. Besides, the PF bloat is just as bad as the DnD bloat.
So what am I actually playing now?
- Deadlands: Hell on Earth (Savage Worlds)
- Cyberpunk Red
- Forbidden Lands
- Worlds Without Number
- Castles & Crusades (currently on hiatus)
- Numenora
- Dark Ember (a Mork Borg homebrew)
There are so many different games out there. I'm personally interested in several others, but as I mentioned, my real-life situation limits my chances to play them unless I want to start one up and GM. But having been the "forever GM" for most of the last two decades, I'm really enjoying just being a player for now.
I am currently running a heavily house-ruled OSE game. After seven years of 5e it is refreshing to have the power back in my hands.
I love the work of Kevin Crawford (Stars Without Number, Worlds Without Number) and will incorporate his stuff into my own games. But I am basically running a mish-mash of 40-years of reading rpg books, on a B/X framework.
Quote from: Effete on January 23, 2023, 04:20:18 PM
I see your Palladium, and I raise you Savage Worlds.
That being said...
I don't dislike 5e as a system. I dislike the bloat and politics that surround it. Give me a core 5e game with a custom homebrew setting and I'll bring the dice and beer. Unfortunately, that's hardly what I ever see, so I simply don't play 5e. (For full disclosure, I moved out to the sticks a little more than a year ago and there aren't really any gamers that I know of, let alone a FLGS, so all my gaming is now done through PbP.) So many of the 5e games I see are advertised as "all official content allowed" and running a pre-gen adventure that everyone who signs up has probably played before. I never jumped onto the PF bandwagon, despite being hard into 3e/3.5 in the early-mid 2000s (I don't even own PF for Savage Worlds), so I don't consider that game an alternative. Besides, the PF bloat is just as bad as the DnD bloat.
So what am I actually playing now?
- Deadlands: Hell on Earth (Savage Worlds)
- Cyberpunk Red
- Forbidden Lands
- Worlds Without Number
- Castles & Crusades (currently on hiatus)
- Numenora
- Dark Ember (a Mork Borg homebrew)
There are so many different games out there. I'm personally interested in several others, but as I mentioned, my real-life situation limits my chances to play them unless I want to start one up and GM. But having been the "forever GM" for most of the last two decades, I'm really enjoying just being a player for now.
I would say that 5e in it's core incarnation already is *not useful* bloat. That is, it adds bloat without adding any additional usability features or fixing any shortcomings. Meaning - the system tried to play like BD&D, but the rules it has don't get things done and the bloat doesn't do anything to address that.
3.5/PF1 at least always added bloat to fix a loophole/exploit a loophole, add some type of meaningful ful flavor, or add a new thing - as the math increases, you're at least tacking on to an existing larger amount of math.
I want systems that either don't get in the way (which 5e didn't do) or that does a good job of trying to simulate that which it represents. The rules need to *do* something to help players and GMs execute the rules. Example: 3.0 having a long-ish list of skills discretized the understanding of what you can do. Not having a list of skills whatsoever let's the GM fully arbitrate edge case calls. Cleaning that list of 3.0 skills in 3.5/PF1 is just a "lessons learnt" from gameplay. 5e's pared down list does none of the above - it just breeds ambiguity in play.
This is the same reason why I love Twilight:2013 but am ambivalent towards Twilight:2000 4e. I don't need a game to have to give me a table telling me a "Value of 'A' = d12, Value of 'B' = d10." Just give me the raw math. This is why I love HARP but not Rollmaster - enough substance to the rules without becoming unwieldy. The same reason why I loved FASERIP MSH back in the day - the rules support the gameplay rather than being force-fit to the gameplay.
Savage Worlds might scratch the itch for some, but I'm waiting to see what shakes out of the fallout of WotC's current actions. Let's see what becomes the D&D killer in a few years like PF 1e did to 4e.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 23, 2023, 11:43:20 AM
If you are that particular about what you like then why not just create your own game?
Being creative is harder work than complaining. Worse, you will then risk the same kind of grizzling mumbling critiques you have been subjecting other game writers to.
Once you're actually at the game table it doesn't matter a huge amount, though. In order of importance to the success of a game session: people, snacks, setting, system. When you're not gaming all you have to do is read (or write!) game systems, which leads you to overestimate their importance.
I love AD&D1e and loathe 5e. But I'd rather play 5E with the best 5 gamers I ever played with than play 1e with the worst 5. The OP needs to stop reading rpgs and return to playing them.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 23, 2023, 09:05:52 AM
This predates the OGL. Lots of people don't like D&D 5E. In my case I just don't like the rules for AC, hit dice, hit points that go up (AC should go up), and Vancian magic are all reasons to avoid D&D.
Is it still Old School Essentials? Is that the standard response to, "What else is there?"
I would steer people to Palladium Books Fantasy, especially 1E. Sure, it's got quirks like the stats for shields are not in the equipment section, but written in the proficiency skill description. 2E continues that oddity too, because it's tradition?!?
From what I remember, Palladium Fantasy has AC, "Hit Dice" (Rolling dice to add hit points every level), and Hit Points that go up. Am I remembering wrong, or is it the way that D&D/5e does it specifically that you dislike?
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on January 23, 2023, 05:40:26 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 23, 2023, 11:43:20 AM
If you are that particular about what you like then why not just create your own game?
Being creative is harder work than complaining. Worse, you will then risk the same kind of grizzling mumbling critiques you have been subjecting other game writers to.
Once you're actually at the game table it doesn't matter a huge amount, though. In order of importance to the success of a game session: people, snacks, setting, system. When you're not gaming all you have to do is read (or write!) game systems, which leads you to overestimate their importance.
I love AD&D1e and loathe 5e. But I'd rather play 5E with the best 5 gamers I ever played with than play 1e with the worst 5. The OP needs to stop reading rpgs and return to playing them.
I wholeheartedly agree! A group that shows up regularly gets along reasonably well is solid gold. I've got a couple or three groups that I'd play any game with.
For me, I was getting sick of 5e from a couple of years back anyway. So the whole OGL thing blowing up is only really secondary to moving away from 5e/WotC.
FWIW though. I've been running OSE since it came out really and I've thoroughly enjoyed it.
It's very different than 5e though, so if you're looking to replicate 5e, OSE is not your answer, which is Basic DnD with in the advanced version, some aspects of ADnD added.
I'm intending to get back into other RPGs I used to play a lot, such as Call of Cthulhu and various Indie RPGs I want to try out.
So the net effect of the OGL Drama for me is a move away from DnD style gaming more and the DnD I DO play is a way more simplified DnD in OSE.
Quote from: Bruwulf on January 23, 2023, 10:20:30 AM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 23, 2023, 09:05:52 AM
This predates the OGL. Lots of people don't like D&D 5E. In my case I just don't like the rules for AC, hit dice, hit points that go up (AC should go up), and Vancian magic are all reasons to avoid D&D.
We get it. You don't like D&D. You play other games. Is that your entire personality?
Greetings!
*Laughing* Cheers, Bruwulf. I was thinking the same thoughts from reading other threads as well. WeirdGuy always chimes in--with the same pronouncements. Funny stuff!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Another hearty agreement for more gamers trying out Palladium Fantasy 1e.
Quote from: Greentongue on January 23, 2023, 01:30:13 PM
Well, there is still MAZES & MINOTAURS
http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/revised.html
A most excellent suggestion!
I've run several M&M campaigns and love that game!
If anyone is seeking a Not-D&D, Not-D20 free fantasy game, I highly suggest checking out
Warrior, Rogue & Mage and its half-dozen free supplements.
http://www.stargazergames.eu/warrior-rogue-mage/ (http://www.stargazergames.eu/warrior-rogue-mage/)
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/82643/Warrior-Rogue--Mage (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/82643/Warrior-Rogue--Mage)
https://www.lulu.com/shop/michael-wolf/warrior-rogue-mage/paperback/product-1dnzr77j.html?page=1&pageSize=4 (https://www.lulu.com/shop/michael-wolf/warrior-rogue-mage/paperback/product-1dnzr77j.html?page=1&pageSize=4)
Quote from: 3catcircus on January 23, 2023, 05:25:29 PM
I would say that 5e in it's core incarnation already is *not useful* bloat. That is, it adds bloat without adding any additional usability features or fixing any shortcomings. Meaning - the system tried to play like BD&D, but the rules it has don't get things done and the bloat doesn't do anything to address that.
I don't actually disagree with this sentiment, though I suspect we might indentify different problem-areas of the game. For me, 5e has far too many classes. They could really just slim it down to maybe 4 or 5 classes, and expand those out with subclasses.
But as far as having a functional, baseline system, 5e is fine. All the other weirdness could be houseruled, like gamers have done for decades.
QuoteI want systems that either don't get in the way (which 5e didn't do) or that does a good job of trying to simulate that which it represents. The rules need to *do* something to help players and GMs execute the rules. Example: 3.0 having a long-ish list of skills discretized the understanding of what you can do. Not having a list of skills whatsoever let's the GM fully arbitrate edge case calls. Cleaning that list of 3.0 skills in 3.5/PF1 is just a "lessons learnt" from gameplay. 5e's pared down list does none of the above - it just breeds ambiguity in play.
Numenera is probably worse when it comes to skills. There isn't even a comprehensive list like there is in 5e; it's just a handful of examples the book passes out for taking certain abilities. The rest is up to players to invent. The general idea is that skills are as broad or as specific as the player wants them to be. You can have one character who is trained in wilderness survival and another trained in arctic survival, and the GM needs to adjucate how those skills function in a given situation. Typically, a more specific skill receives a lower (or higher) Difficulty than a broad skill would. However, this is placing a lot of trust on the GM to make proper calls. I think this is why the gamerules encourage players to essentially argue with the GM about how their skills and abilities would help in a situation. It presents a sort of "fail-safe" in case the GM is too inexperienced /inattentive /drunk / retarded /whatever. But a lot of players coming from DnD and other systems that basically treat the GM's word as the word of God, would likely find a Numenera game too abstract, ambiguous, and lacking.
Quote from: Effete on January 23, 2023, 09:30:12 PM
Quote from: 3catcircus on January 23, 2023, 05:25:29 PM
I would say that 5e in it's core incarnation already is *not useful* bloat. That is, it adds bloat without adding any additional usability features or fixing any shortcomings. Meaning - the system tried to play like BD&D, but the rules it has don't get things done and the bloat doesn't do anything to address that.
I don't actually disagree with this sentiment, though I suspect we might indentify different problem-areas of the game. For me, 5e has far too many classes. They could really just slim it down to maybe 4 or 5 classes, and expand those out with subclasses.
But as far as having a functional, baseline system, 5e is fine. All the other weirdness could be houseruled, like gamers have done for decades.
I dunno. Part of the problem I have with 5e is the nature of the basics of class and subclass. It's like they've taken 3.x, dumbed it down, and then said "Ta daa!!" It's no different than taking THAC0, reversing the negative sign to get BAB, and declaring it a new thing.
Quote from: 3catcircus on January 23, 2023, 09:49:55 PM
I dunno. Part of the problem I have with 5e is the nature of the basics of class and subclass. It's like they've taken 3.x, dumbed it down, and then said "Ta daa!!"
I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. If you're saying the way the classes/subclasses are presented is shit, I fully agree. WotC has entirely lost the plot when it comes to the purpose of classes (and to be fair, so had TSR). I would completely redo classes so that they served more as "roles" within the game (hence, why you don't need more than 4 or 5 of them), then use subclasses to provide "flavor." So you'd have one magic-user class, but then chose between a combat-caster, healer, summoner, etc. I'd introduce a "Leader" class which would serve to buff allies, and that would sub into a battle commander, muse (i.e., bard), apothecary, etc.
5e isn't without it's problems. That was never my statement.
QuoteIt's no different than taking THAC0, reversing the negative sign to get BAB, and declaring it a new thing.
Well, it was certainly a much easier way to address the mechanic. I'm an Ascending AC guy all the way. I got started on AD&D in the 90s, and THAC0 was what it was, and looking back, my god it was shit.
Just get Worlds without Number. Its OSR with effort, with some of the best ideas from all the editions of D&D. Its highly customizable.
It also doesn't fall under OGL, but is compatible with it.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 23, 2023, 01:03:07 PM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 23, 2023, 12:22:13 PMI'm tempted. But free time is not a thing I have. Still, David Guyll, writer of Dungeons and Delvers said the same to me in private emails.
I didn't start out trying to write an RPG, I just made tweak after tweak until the whole thing was different. But the thing about writing an RPG for yourself is that you don't need to write it to the standards of a published RPG. You only need to flesh out the first three levels or so of each class and write only first level spells, etc. Your magic item and monster list will grow naturally as you write adventures, etc.
Just write enough to get you by the next session or two and rely heavily on player input for what parts of the game to expand.
QuoteBut do we need another not-Star Wars, but it's Star Wars RPG using his dice pool system?
D6 Space is the SW RPG without the SW IP. But you are correct that we don't NEED any more RPGs. However, science fiction is a bit different from most other genres in that it varies so much. A Star Wars game, a Star Trek game, and an Alien game will all be radically different in tone. And new sub-genre's about being created all the time; like the Expanse.
Also, D6 Fantasy was part of the OpenD6 release. OpenD6 is a toolbox system, you can do about anything, other than probably supers with it. Want to add classes--easy, a class is a bucket of skills that are advanced together. In fact, that might even get you a better class based game if you like the old open play style, because the characters in play justify new classes as a new "bucket of skills with special abilities" through their actions. The fighter builds a keep, and decides to build a new militia--and if you want to create a militia of Newtonians along with a gish bodyguard class, easy to do. Does a player want to introduce gunpowers, start with alchemy, when he hits the difficulty targets through whatever research rules you set, create a firearms skill. Whatever you want to do, D6 has your back.
It is OGL 1.0a when it was released as an open system, but I'm not sure that WOTC would be able to sue you for anything you might publish, because its not their IP, though I'm not sure how deauthorization, if legal affects things.
Quote from: Toran Ironfinder on January 24, 2023, 12:09:37 AM
It is OGL 1.0a when it was released as an open system, but I'm not sure that WOTC would be able to sue you for anything you might publish, because its not their IP, though I'm not sure how deauthorization, if legal affects things.
My understanding is this:
If you created a wholly original system, using no OGC, then released portions of it under the OGL 1.0(a), then deauthorization of the license would just mean your content is no longer Open Content (i.e., it becomes your sole property again). However, anyone else who used the OGL to source your OGC would now be violating YOUR copyright.
In other words, if WotC deauthorizes 1.0(a), they would be FORCING a conflict between two (or more) companies completely unrelated to themselves. This is the legal equivalent of spreading rumors to get two people to fight. I'm unsure if such a situation exists within the current OGL, but I'm sure this would be grounds for summary judgment that the OGL cannot be revoked or deauthorized.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 23, 2023, 05:43:11 PM
From what I remember, Palladium Fantasy has AC, "Hit Dice" (Rolling dice to add hit points every level), and Hit Points that go up. Am I remembering wrong, or is it the way that D&D/5e does it specifically that you dislike?
The Palladium system has Armor Rating, but it just diverts the damage into the armor if the attack rolls below the A.R. Also, the armor rating goes down -2 A.R. points as the armor gets to 50%, and -2 A.R. more at 33% of its starting structure points.
Hit points do go up every level, but not by much. A PC can start with 30-50 Structural Damage Capacity and 10 hit points, and end with 30-50 SDC and 30 HP. Why are there two numbers? SDC is the movie injuries that heal by tomorrow, but hit points should really need bedrest and a doctor. It's also a way to poison a huge strongman with hundreds of SDC like a superhero, and some critical hits bypass SDC and go straight to HP.
The real progression in Palladium are the strike, parry, & dodge bonuses to the hit/avoid opposed rolls. Unlike D&D, in Palladium you and the GM both roll a D20 when attacking. Strike vs Parry, or Strike vs Dodge, highest roll wins, defender wins any ties. Those three bonuses go up as you level, and we had level 10-12 characters with +9 to strike and +10 or even more to parry.
Well, I don;'t do D&D anyway. I have my own oldschool FRPG that I play. But, that game's company is on the Red List, so,I don't want to encourage people to play it. Before the move to the red list, I purchased, (and even contributed to and playtested) enough material for the game to last me an entire lifetime, so I'm good.
Like most people here, I already don't play D&D. Currently I'm playing in Hyperborea and Modiphius Conan games, and running Dragon Warriors. Planned campaigns include Index Card RPG, Helveczia (probably hybridized with Lamentations of the Flame Princess), and either Stars Without Number or Warpstar! (haven't decided which yet).
If the question is where are the people who quit 5e over this going to go? Pathfinder first, probably. That seems to be where all the big YouTubers/"influencers" are leaning, and they'll take their audiences with them. Behind that, probably Savage Worlds.
My bigger concern with the OGL debacle right now is how it's going to affect VTTs. If Roll20 and/or Foundry go down, that is going to seriously affect my games. I run my game on Roll20 which seems to be likely to survive, since most people think they have a backdoor deal with WOTC, but I'm looking into contingency plans anyway. If Foundry goes down, I would expect that to be the end of my Hyperborea campaign. The DM on that one has put an insane amount of work into the VTT side of it, and I could see him deciding it just isn't worth re-doing it somewhere else.
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 24, 2023, 08:53:36 AM
Like most people here, I already don't play D&D. Currently I'm playing in Hyperborea and Modiphius Conan games, and running Dragon Warriors. Planned campaigns include Index Card RPG, Helveczia (probably hybridized with Lamentations of the Flame Princess), and either Stars Without Number or Warpstar! (haven't decided which yet).
If the question is where are the people who quit 5e over this going to go? Pathfinder first, probably. That seems to be where all the big YouTubers/"influencers" are leaning, and they'll take their audiences with them. Behind that, probably Savage Worlds.
My bigger concern with the OGL debacle right now is how it's going to affect VTTs. If Roll20 and/or Foundry go down, that is going to seriously affect my games. I run my game on Roll20 which seems to be likely to survive, since most people think they have a backdoor deal with WOTC, but I'm looking into contingency plans anyway. If Foundry goes down, I would expect that to be the end of my Hyperborea campaign. The DM on that one has put an insane amount of work into the VTT side of it, and I could see him deciding it just isn't worth re-doing it somewhere else.
All Foundry needs is bonafide non-OGL system that is similar enough to the d20 system and willing to put out some character sheets where you can rename and link things and there's not much Hasbro could do other than obvious anti-competitive lawfare against them. I mean, its not like Hasbro has an up and running tabletop with all the features they want to ban other VTTs from using to claim infringement.
Frankly, if I were Foundry, I'd look at that list of things Hasbro wants to bully other VTTs out of doing and say "Challenge Accepted!" and bring them all to market before OneD&D's tabletop is in open beta. "They're infringing on our concept" means crap when someone else got there first. Advertise those features far and wide and if you're not on any OGL and Hasbro risks a bench judgement over anticompetitive nonsense.
ETA: the other thing is Foundry allows homebew modules/plug-ins and doesn't require you to run on their servers to use it. If they just don't host D&D modules/plug-ins directly on its site I don't think Hasbro would have a leg to stand on.
The head of D&D digital thinks ttrpg gamers and video gamers are the same thing so he doesn't realize the degree of creativity and problem solving the community applies to obstacles like this.
My answers for me personally:
Barbarians of Lemuria Mythic Edition
Hyperborea 3e
Old School Essentials
Savage Worlds
The One Ring 2e if you want to game in Middle Earth
Numenera - I dig the system and it is one of the best settings ever
So, first... I'm sorry. I was in a bitchy mood earlier, for no good reason.
To try to be a useful participant in this conversation...
I play a lot of games. I play a ton of Shadowrun, for example, mostly second or third edition. I still play Original/20th World of Darkness games. I play a lot of Call of Cthulhu, Delta Green, The Laundry Files... All sort of the same thing, I suppose. Sometimes I play Eclipse Phase, or Jovian Chronicles, or Rifts, or...
Well, the point is, I play a ton of games that aren't even remotely D&D.
When I'm in the mood for "D&D", in terms of name-brand D&D product, I usually play 2nd Edition. I also get my Fantasy Fix from Harnmaster, Warhammer Fantasy, or even occasionally Pathfinder. Sometimes I play OSR games; I'm partial to OSE, but I've played others.
My homebrew Fantasy campaign+system, you know, that personal heartbreaker project that most GMs have and have been tweaking and growing for many years? It started with 2E D&D, but I've blended in some elements from Hackmaster, Harnmaster, WFRP, and some of my own ideas.
So, I didn't like D&D at all for a long time. After playing with Basic-era games, I thought it became too complicated (3e) and just a minis game (4e). The OSR and then 5e is what brought me back.
During my non-D&D years, I played everything: GURPS, SW, M&M, UA, CoC... I actually enjoyed knowing new systems. And I think that this is important to find out your tastes.
I played 5e for a while but now I'm basically done with D&D. I play with my own system* (which is very much D&D-ish, a homage to Moldvay's Basic with bits form DCC, 3e and 5e).
I find D&D-ish stuff is the easiest for my player since they are familiar with the mechanics.
Unfortunately, my game is OGL so I'll probably have to rewrite it soon for a new edition.
If I didn't have my own game, I'd probably be playing Shadow of the Demon Lord**. It is an amazing game that rights many of 5e's wrongs (although it has a few flaws).
* Dark Fantasy Basic - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/229046/Dark-Fantasy-Basic--Players-Guide
** Here are my impressions and review: https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2022/06/shadow-of-demon-lord-review-i-book.html
This decade in addition to 5e I have played James Bond (the old VG version), Ultraviolet Grasslands, OSE, Dead Reign, ACKS, and Savage Worlds.
Right now I'm looking at ACKS, Fantasy Craft, Magic World, and Mythras to start a game after I move next month.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 23, 2023, 05:43:11 PM
From what I remember, Palladium Fantasy has AC, "Hit Dice" (Rolling dice to add hit points every level), and Hit Points that go up. Am I remembering wrong, or is it the way that D&D/5e does it specifically that you dislike?
Pretty much, especially 1st edition. In 2nd hit points don't go up but SDC does. It has effective AC in that a 4+ hits, but armor takes the hits unless you roll over its armor value.
Quote from: Batjon on January 24, 2023, 10:35:34 AM
My answers for me personally:
Barbarians of Lemuria Mythic Edition
I love Barbarians and I have this editon. I havent played it or run it in awhile but I would love to do so. Something to consider.
Quote from: PulpHerb on January 24, 2023, 11:21:00 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 23, 2023, 05:43:11 PM
From what I remember, Palladium Fantasy has AC, "Hit Dice" (Rolling dice to add hit points every level), and Hit Points that go up. Am I remembering wrong, or is it the way that D&D/5e does it specifically that you dislike?
Pretty much, especially 1st edition. In 2nd hit points don't go up but SDC does. It has effective AC in that a 4+ hits, but armor takes the hits unless you roll over its armor value.
Also of note is that in Palladium's first game; Mechanoid Invasion; AR worked exactly like AC. To do any damage to a character's armor you had to exceed its AR and then deplete all the armor's SDC before damaging the character's hit points.
This is still how "Robotic/Vehicle AR" works in its SDC settings.
Another artifact of the original way AR worked could be found in some of the early edition particle beam rules that got ported in direct from Mechanoids (ex. 1st edition Heroes Unlimited). They had an oddity where instead of the usual base 4+ to hit, they needed a 12+ to even hit and do half damage and would only do full damage with a 16+.
In all the post-Mechanoid settings where AR became the target number to bypass armor entirely (with anything between 4 and the AR damaging the armor) this made particle beams fairly weak.
BUT in Mechanoid Invasion most armors had AR's of 17-19 to even damage them at all and the particle beam ignored that to use its own numbers of 12 or 16... making them an extremely potent and powerful weapon.
The relevant bit of what I bring up here though is that Palladium has had, among its available rulesets, something that works exactly like d20 System's roll vs. TN mechanic independent of and predating the d20 System by roughly two decades.
So long as you use your own words to describe the process, Hasbro can't even pretend to claim infringement over the d20 vs. target number and roll various polyhedrals + modifiers for damage that is taken off a hit point total. Palladium Books was using that mechanic back when D&D was still using to-hit matrices/tables.
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 24, 2023, 08:53:36 AM
Helveczia (probably hybridized with Lamentations of the Flame Princess)
Not gonna lie, that sounds awesome!
I own and take inspiration from the books for 5E, without running D&D by the 5E rules; so, I am highly insulated from any direction WOTC chooses. The same goes with Pathfinder 1E, and Paizo. I reference their books, but I don't play by their rules. I have embraced the many different ways of using the mighty D6, to get there. Those rulebooks are a reference for me, just as a list of healing herbs in Lion & Dragon might be.
QuoteSo if you don't want to use WotC 5E, what do you play?
AD&D 1E
RoleMaster
Savage Worlds
The same I've been playing for years?
The last two years AD&D2e
Quote from: GhostNinja on January 24, 2023, 11:38:15 AM
Quote from: Batjon on January 24, 2023, 10:35:34 AM
My answers for me personally:
Barbarians of Lemuria Mythic Edition
I love Barbarians and I have this editon. I havent played it or run it in awhile but I would love to do so. Something to consider.
I'm setting up an online to do some campaigns and also some of the games based off BoL, such as Honor + Intrigue, and Dicey Tales. If interested, PM me.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 23, 2023, 10:51:05 PM
Just get Worlds without Number. Its OSR with effort, with some of the best ideas from all the editions of D&D. Its highly customizable.
It also doesn't fall under OGL, but is compatible with it.
Harsh, but true.
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 24, 2023, 08:53:36 AM
...
If the question is where are the people who quit 5e over this going to go? Pathfinder first, probably. That seems to be where all the big YouTubers/"influencers" are leaning, and they'll take their audiences with them. Behind that, probably Savage Worlds.
PF2's audience is limited for table top play due to it's complexity. It'll probably get more traction with the VTT crowd due to the machine being able to do the systems heavy lifting.
But right now, they are the only alternate game in town with real public visibility, so Baizuo will benefit in the short term.
Kobold press's 5e game might be the one to get real traction.
CR are in a contractual relationship with the Wotiz's. Mercer must be furious getting caught sideways by Wotzi's actions with the OGL. As CR is otherwise perfectly placed to introduce an alternate 5e system.
Interesting times ahead...
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 24, 2023, 08:53:36 AM
My bigger concern with the OGL debacle right now is how it's going to affect VTTs. If Roll20 and/or Foundry go down, that is going to seriously affect my games. I run my game on Roll20 which seems to be likely to survive, since most people think they have a backdoor deal with WOTC, but I'm looking into contingency plans anyway. If Foundry goes down, I would expect that to be the end of my Hyperborea campaign. The DM on that one has put an insane amount of work into the VTT side of it, and I could see him deciding it just isn't worth re-doing it somewhere else.
Ironically, Wotzi did not have to be near so heavy handed to kill most competing VTT's.
Come 2024, no more deals for competing VTT's. All official D&D content is exclusively available on the OneVTT.
With C&D letters to stop places like Foundry from scraping 5.5e content from D&D Beyond to run on their platform.
All Wotzi had to do was turn off the tap, and eventually the majority of D&D players would gravitate to the OneVTT.
But Noooooooooooo...
Kinda hilarious how WotC rhymes with Nazi. How ironic.
Castles & Crusades
AD&D 1E
Quote from: rytrasmi on January 24, 2023, 01:06:24 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 24, 2023, 08:53:36 AM
Helveczia (probably hybridized with Lamentations of the Flame Princess)
Not gonna lie, that sounds awesome!
Let's hope. My initial thought was to just run straight
Helveczia and convert some
Lamentations modules, since many of them are for the same time period and region. I figure that's a good match-up as well, since
Lamentations adventures lean a bit too much towards being meat-grinders for my taste, but
Helveczia PCs seem slightly more powerful than LOTFP ones, so it probably evens out. But I run my games on Roll20, and unfortunately there's no
Helveczia character sheet for it (and I don't know dick about coding), so I'll probably have to use the Lamentations character sheet, and mix the two systems up. The only real downside is I'll probably have to use the LOTFP save system, which is fine on it's own, but the
Helveczia save system is one of its more unique features.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 24, 2023, 01:52:26 PM
The same I've been playing for years?
The last two years AD&D2e
Rock on. That's the edition I'd pick, given a choice.
If I want to play D&D I run AD&D 1e (and tell players to download the OSRIC pdf if they want a rulebook to look through, although players don't really need to know the rules), or I run original D&D with my own house rules that have accumulated over the years.
If I'm running a fantasy game that isn't D&D it's probably some form of BRP (e.g., Runequest), or maybe Rolemaster (1e or 2e are both fine).
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 24, 2023, 08:53:36 AMand either Stars Without Number or Warpstar! (haven't decided which yet).
If you run Warpstar!, please post an actual play review. It sounds interesting.
There are a lot of RPGs to explore out there. :) And I'd still gladly play with my (or another's) current supplies of D&D 5e in private if it entertains me. As long as no new money or exposure is going to Hasbro/WotC where's the problem? ???
As for what I'd play, depends on my mood and our agreed upon venue. If in public, I'd still happily to bust out my old skool D&D 2e. If asked how to get said D&D 2e stuff, I'd recommend secondhand used market, and explain my distaste for the current owner's business practices. But there are so many RPGs for different "feels" out there it would be hard to comment beyond favorite top 20 standbys.
Quote from: Spinachcat on January 25, 2023, 04:13:18 AM
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 24, 2023, 08:53:36 AMand either Stars Without Number or Warpstar! (haven't decided which yet).
If you run Warpstar!, please post an actual play review. It sounds interesting.
I probably wouldn't ever post an actual play, just because my players wouldn't want to be recorded. However, I have been meaning to start trying to make video reviews of any of the more obscure RPGs I want to run. A lot of the stuff I'm interested in has little-to-no review content out there, and when it does its usually reviews by people who haven't actually played the game.
Quote from: Jaeger on January 24, 2023, 03:45:38 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 24, 2023, 08:53:36 AM
...
If the question is where are the people who quit 5e over this going to go? Pathfinder first, probably. That seems to be where all the big YouTubers/"influencers" are leaning, and they'll take their audiences with them. Behind that, probably Savage Worlds.
PF2's audience is limited for table top play due to it's complexity. It'll probably get more traction with the VTT crowd due to the machine being able to do the systems heavy lifting.
I've never looked at Pathfinder 2e. Is it that much more complicated than D&D 5th? Pathfinder 1e was arguably less complicated than 3.5 (although also arguably more in some places), but people played both games for years before the VTT boom hit.
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 24, 2023, 10:56:00 PM
Let's hope. My initial thought was to just run straight Helveczia and convert some Lamentations modules, since many of them are for the same time period and region. I figure that's a good match-up as well, since Lamentations adventures lean a bit too much towards being meat-grinders for my taste, but Helveczia PCs seem slightly more powerful than LOTFP ones, so it probably evens out. But I run my games on Roll20, and unfortunately there's no Helveczia character sheet for it (and I don't know dick about coding), so I'll probably have to use the Lamentations character sheet, and mix the two systems up. The only real downside is I'll probably have to use the LOTFP save system, which is fine on it's own, but the Helveczia save system is one of its more unique features.
Yeah, a lot of LotFP adventures are pretty deadly. I've heard a lot of good things about Helveczia and your comparison just sold me on the boxed set.
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 25, 2023, 09:49:24 AM
I've never looked at Pathfinder 2e. Is it that much more complicated than D&D 5th? Pathfinder 1e was arguably less complicated than 3.5 (although also arguably more in some places), but people played both games for years before the VTT boom hit.
PF2 is much more fiddly than 5e. Lots of the +1's and +2's to this and that that barely affect probability but need to be tracked. The classes themselves generally have at least one choice (often more) to make every time you gain a level (vs. most build choices being locked in by level 3 in 5e).
I'm not saying it's impossible to make the jump. Just that it is a different experience.
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 25, 2023, 10:53:22 AM
PF2 is much more fiddly than 5e. Lots of the +1's and +2's to this and that that barely affect probability but need to be tracked. The classes themselves generally have at least one choice (often more) to make every time you gain a level (vs. most build choices being locked in by level 3 in 5e).
I'm not saying it's impossible to make the jump. Just that it is a different experience.
Thats good to know. I was thinking about eventually switchting to PF2 but I am looking for something less complicated, not more complicated or just as complicated.
Quote from: GhostNinja on January 25, 2023, 10:59:30 AM
Thats good to know. I was thinking about eventually switchting to PF2 but I am looking for something less complicated, not more complicated or just as complicated.
Check out Worlds Without Number. Its free and simple and good.
I am sticking to 5e as it is a good system once you remove a few warts.
That and wotc is kicking it to the curb to follow their edition treadmill dream.
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 24, 2023, 10:56:00 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on January 24, 2023, 01:06:24 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 24, 2023, 08:53:36 AM
Helveczia (probably hybridized with Lamentations of the Flame Princess)
Not gonna lie, that sounds awesome!
Let's hope. My initial thought was to just run straight Helveczia and convert some Lamentations modules, since many of them are for the same time period and region. I figure that's a good match-up as well, since Lamentations adventures lean a bit too much towards being meat-grinders for my taste, but Helveczia PCs seem slightly more powerful than LOTFP ones, so it probably evens out. But I run my games on Roll20, and unfortunately there's no Helveczia character sheet for it (and I don't know dick about coding), so I'll probably have to use the Lamentations character sheet, and mix the two systems up. The only real downside is I'll probably have to use the LOTFP save system, which is fine on it's own, but the Helveczia save system is one of its more unique features.
Looking at my copy of Lion and Dragon, I think it would also be a great "fantasy sourcebook" for Helveczia.
You can even have advancement after level 6 by using the L&D advancement rolls with minor adjustments. (Like instead of +1d8 HP you just give the PC +2 HP.)
The spells for Helveczia work more like trad D&D, but the additional L&D flavor adds in that medieval feel - and the two bestiaries complement each other.
Most any B/X adventure could be used pretty much as is in such a mash-up, just subbing the monster stats around as needed.
It's long term play seems that it would be a nice middle ground power level wise between L&D PC vulnerability, and high level BX/AD&D.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 25, 2023, 12:02:09 PM
Check out Worlds Without Number. Its free and simple and good.
Great. I will give it a look over.
Thanks for the suggestion
The reason I advocate Worlds/Stars Without Number is because I consider it the true inheritor of D&D, and 5e is a crappy pretender.
I could list all the ways WWM is better if there is interest.
Quote from: Omega on January 25, 2023, 02:12:55 PM
I am sticking to 5e as it is a good system once you remove a few warts.
That and wotc is kicking it to the curb to follow their edition treadmill dream.
I think they will come to regret their current course of action. It will be a legendary crash and burn, in the history of printed tabletop RPGs. It will be difficult, for anyone to ever top this fiasco.
However, I don't see any need to criticize someone for running a game they already own. Rock on.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 25, 2023, 05:18:08 PM
The reason I advocate Worlds/Stars Without Number is because I consider it the true inheritor of D&D, and 5e is a crappy pretender.
I could list all the ways WWM is better if there is interest.
I would be interested in that
I have not done the pure fantasy gaming thing for quite a while (I'm more of a sci-fi, horror, urban fantasy player.) So, my go-to fantasy game would be Amber Diceless.
The D&D Rules Cyclopedia. It remains the standard of what running/playing D&D is. All the BECMI goodness with none of the carcinogenic wokeness of WOTC. Doubt me? Try it with your 5e group and see ;)
Quote from: Crusader X on January 25, 2023, 06:16:40 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 25, 2023, 05:18:08 PM
The reason I advocate Worlds/Stars Without Number is because I consider it the true inheritor of D&D, and 5e is a crappy pretender.
I could list all the ways WWM is better if there is interest.
I would be interested in that
Seconded.
Quote from: Theory of Games on January 25, 2023, 07:26:34 PM
The D&D Rules Cyclopedia. It remains the standard of what running/playing D&D is. All the BECMI goodness with none of the carcinogenic wokeness of WOTC. Doubt me? Try it with your 5e group and see ;)
I have thought about ordering a copy, a few different times; but I've repeatedly heard that the Thief class got nerfed? I own the White Box FMAG homage to OD&D, Blueholme homage to Holmes Basic, and the OSE homage to classic BX. I suppose it seems a bit strange, that I haven't gotten the Rules Cyclopedia; even if only for completion?
Quote from: Crusader X on January 25, 2023, 06:16:40 PMI would be interested in that
OK, so here I go:
I posit that 5e put more effort into 'looking' like D&D instead of really learning from its ancestor editions.
Classes:
WWN has 4 primary classes: Mage, Expert, and Warrior. There is also Adventurer that allows you to mix two class aspects together (but each aspect is weaker than a focused class).
Class Features & Edges:Base class features are mostly minimalistic but effective. Mostly things you get at level 1 and have a simple scale. Everybody has access to a feat-like system called Foci . Foci are significant and are never 3e-style feat trees, usually having a base function, and then an upgraded function. This means that Foci are not optional like in 5e, but it also means classes are simpler affairs without twiddly useless crossover abilities like in 5e as well.
If you want a 'Rogue', you can just be a Warrior or Expert with the Assasin Foci (or a mix of the two with Adventurer). No need to mess around with 8 classes to replicate specific character expressions.
Levels, Skills, & MathsThere are only 10 levels, but it's compressed more value into said levels. Outside of attack rolls, the system uses a 2d6 system for its skill rolls, which makes smaller values much more meaningful.
In place of a +2->6 for a single skill over 20 ****ing levels, you can upgrade a skill from 0->+4 over the course of 10, which has WAY more significance mathematically. There are Edges that also give buffs as well.
Attributes also only range from -2 to +2, but again with the bounded nature of a 2d6 its much more significant then the range of -4->+4
Oh yeah, there is a skill system with skill points. It's not complicated like in 3e D&D. The Expert gets more skill points.
MagicMagic spell categories have been compressed from 1->9 to 1->5 (so Spells of slot 1-2 in 5e are just category 1 in WWN). Magic has been rebalanced (to address the caster dominance that still exists in 5e) by just more specifically custom spell lists that don't exist to be a solution to every kind of problem.
Saving throws follow the scaling systems of 2AD&D, instead of the equal scaling of 3e. There are still only 3 saves.
Mages also have only 1 spell slot category, they just can use those slots for higher-level spells as they level up. So a Mage goes from 1->5 spell slots over 10 levels. Spells are always very powerful, so each spell slot is generally significant.
However, as this is a Harsh nerf, to give mages something else to do, they get a pool of Effort which is separate from slots. Effort is committed to lesser effects (like blasting cantrips, sense magic, counterspells, etc). Depending on the effect, effort comes back faster or slower. Weak effects (like say in combat blast attacks) allow their committed effort to return instantly. Medium effects return after the end of the encounter while more powerful effects only return after a days rest.
There is also very good advice for adding your own spells, but the existing spell lists are pretty good.
I have other stuff to add but I think im running out of space.
Ok more WWN goodness:
Advanced Class Options:
OK so I covered the basic classes, but the Delux Edition book comes with Arts, which functions like half classes to be taken with Adventurer.
So if you say want to be a 'Ranger' with a Companion, you take the Adventurer class, and then a Llaigisan Beastmaster art.
This grants some class features over said 10 levels, in ways to upgrade and customize a pet.
And depending on the other class you take, you work a different manifestation.
Warrior/Beastmaster could be a combat-style ranger with a wolf-mount.
Expert/Beastmaster could be a thief with a ferret companion.
Mage/Beastmaster could vary depending on the mage type. But a classic example is a druid.
There are arts for more complex things that Foci can't cover (shapeshifting, or classical cleric abilities), as well as ways to introduce alternate mechanics.
Adunic Invokers are mages without effort pools (mostly), but instead have function off a spell-point system. Lower level spells cost less then higher level spells to cast and such.
Customization:
WWN is truly customizable, not fake customizable like 5e. Its default assumption is of hardy, but mundane-ish heroes. You can use the Delux book for heroic classes that are tougher and have more options. You can go even higher with very heroic Legates which get even more advanced abilities. Or you can grab options to make healing sparser and slower.
There are also a ton of other stuff, but im tired.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 25, 2023, 05:18:08 PM
The reason I advocate Worlds/Stars Without Number is because I consider it the true inheritor of D&D, and 5e is a crappy pretender.
I could list all the ways WWM is better if there is interest.
See, I tried to like Stars Without Number. It seemed like a Star Wars game substitute. But, the way psionics works you only get a few rounds before you out of power.
So my Star Wars will stick with D6 rules, probably Mini-six.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 25, 2023, 10:31:19 PMSee, I tried to like Stars Without Number. It seemed like a Star Wars game substitute.
It's Traveler inspired more-so then Star Wars inspired. And the Jedi class is in The Black Sun Codex.
Quote from: zircher on January 25, 2023, 07:05:10 PM
I have not done the pure fantasy gaming thing for quite a while (I'm more of a sci-fi, horror, urban fantasy player.) So, my go-to fantasy game would be Amber Diceless.
I might have to walk that back. I just watched a review for Fabula Ultima TTJRPG and I am intrigued. I like the fact that world building in considered part of the game. I like that level of control and not being tied/locked in to a given setting.
Quote from: zircher on January 26, 2023, 07:06:02 PM
Quote from: zircher on January 25, 2023, 07:05:10 PM
I have not done the pure fantasy gaming thing for quite a while (I'm more of a sci-fi, horror, urban fantasy player.) So, my go-to fantasy game would be Amber Diceless.
I might have to walk that back. I just watched a review for Fabula Ultima TTJRPG and I am intrigued. I like the fact that world building in considered part of the game. I like that level of control and not being tied/locked in to a given setting.
I purchased the Dragonlance adventure that just came out, but do not use 5e to run it. It is such a shit adventure that I am not sure if I will spend the time to review it. I have turned it into a good campaign for my group, but it took a lot of work.
Never again. Out of pure love of Dragonlance I told myself I'd always keep up with what is going on with it. But there is no talent left at Wizards.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 25, 2023, 11:01:46 PM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 25, 2023, 10:31:19 PMSee, I tried to like Stars Without Number. It seemed like a Star Wars game substitute.
It's Traveler inspired more-so then Star Wars inspired. And the Jedi class is in The Black Sun Codex.
The what codex!?! <quick $9 spent at DTRPG>
Interesting. Sunblades class. I'll have to look into this.
Thanks, Banshee. I didn't know about this one.
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 25, 2023, 06:15:47 PM
Quote from: Omega on January 25, 2023, 02:12:55 PM
I am sticking to 5e as it is a good system once you remove a few warts.
That and wotc is kicking it to the curb to follow their edition treadmill dream.
I think they will come to regret their current course of action. It will be a legendary crash and burn, in the history of printed tabletop RPGs. It will be difficult, for anyone to ever top this fiasco.
However, I don't see any need to criticize someone for running a game they already own. Rock on.
Unfortunately they may be right that the rage will die down. Already theres a growing swing in opinion to go see the movie instead of boycotting it as was the plan. In a few weeks?
Quote from: Omega on January 27, 2023, 02:01:06 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 25, 2023, 06:15:47 PM
Quote from: Omega on January 25, 2023, 02:12:55 PM
I am sticking to 5e as it is a good system once you remove a few warts.
That and wotc is kicking it to the curb to follow their edition treadmill dream.
I think they will come to regret their current course of action. It will be a legendary crash and burn, in the history of printed tabletop RPGs. It will be difficult, for anyone to ever top this fiasco.
However, I don't see any need to criticize someone for running a game they already own. Rock on.
Unfortunately they may be right that the rage will die down. Already theres a growing swing in opinion to go see the movie instead of boycotting it as was the plan. In a few weeks?
Some of that, is just that people have been waiting so dang long for a decent D&D movie.
I'm playing in a weekly game with 5e mechanics but using an entirely home-brew world and the other weekly game has been system hopping around between: Alien, Savage Worlds, 7th Sea, DCC, and Cypher. I don't think that group will ever return to a WoTC One DnD or 5e ruleset.
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 27, 2023, 06:09:17 AM
Some of that, is just that people have been waiting so dang long for a decent D&D movie.
I waited 28 years for a Tron sequel, I'm patient. :-)
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 27, 2023, 06:09:17 AM
Some of that, is just that people have been waiting so dang long for a decent D&D movie.
I have no idea what that would even be. Most of us play D&D very differently in tone, scope etc. Case in point, I tend to have near-grim, heavy politics, Forgotten Realms games. I don't have weirdo-races showing up out of nowhere for no good reason. It's not slapstick intentionally. It doesn't look like a Critical Role game *at all*. It feels very Game of Thrones like (long before GoT was ever in print).
Then I see the new D&D movie trailer... I'm chuckling along... like "whatever". Then I heard the other day that its set in the Forgotten Realms... LOLOL oookay. That's not *my* Forgotten Realms. It looks like any other modern conception of "D&D" pastiche. The snarky humor, silly comedy, with D&D fantasy tropes tossed in for color.
/shrug. I'd rather movie studios back the fuck away from Lord of the Rings, and GoT, and start looking at other fantasy novel series that have solid stories and secondary worlds that could give us that "D&D Movie" vibe we want that more of us could get behind. Something like Raymond Feist's "Magician" series.
Of course the problem is movie studios are so woke it's best if they just don't touch them... (Yes I know a Magician TV series is in the works... I'm dreading it).
As for what else should people play besides WotC5e? There are literally dozens of other systems out there that do Fantasy and D&D-style fantasy, to be more precise, and do them very well.
My general opinion is that "D&D fantasy" is so varied in its expression - Runequest/Mythras, 1e/2e D&D, OSR, Symbaroum, WHFR2e (or any other edition). There's many to choose from!
Quote from: tenbones on January 28, 2023, 03:02:36 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 27, 2023, 06:09:17 AM
Some of that, is just that people have been waiting so dang long for a decent D&D movie.
I have no idea what that would even be. Most of us play D&D very differently in tone, scope etc. Case in point, I tend to have near-grim, heavy politics, Forgotten Realms games. I don't have weirdo-races showing up out of nowhere for no good reason. It's not slapstick intentionally. It doesn't look like a Critical Role game *at all*. It feels very Game of Thrones like (long before GoT was ever in print).
I remember someone (possibly "RedLetterMedia") floating the idea that if you were going to do a D&D movie, you should structure it a bit like the LEGO movie from a few years ago. I.e, have as a framing device a group of kids playing D&D, and then dramatize the events of their game with actors etc. That'd be the only way to do a movie that was true to the spirit of the game. But of course, then you'd have to have writers that have actually played D&D, which they probably don't.
Quote from: tenbones on January 28, 2023, 03:02:36 PM
Then I see the new D&D movie trailer... I'm chuckling along... like "whatever". Then I heard the other day that its set in the Forgotten Realms... LOLOL oookay. That's not *my* Forgotten Realms. It looks like any other modern conception of "D&D" pastiche. The snarky humor, silly comedy, with D&D fantasy tropes tossed in for color.
Sadly, I think that is the Forgotten Realms for most players under 35. Faerun has been slowly morphing into "D&D Fantasy Funland" ever since Wizards started pushing it as the main setting for the game somewhere around the 3.5 era.
With WotC in retreat, for now, and even before, it may have been a great time to buy your favorite OSR game.
Yup, my advice is to go buy OSR games now before they're gone.
Once you have the books you can do as you please. WotC will have been too late.
I am pro OSR. I own three different OSR softcover rulebooks right now. Basic Fantasy, Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool, and Star Adventurer. In PDF I have dozens.
Now, I have technically only played Dungeons and Delvers. Star Adventurer and Basic Fantasy are waiting for to get the itch and see how the other half plays their game.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 28, 2023, 08:31:59 PMNow, I have technically only played Dungeons and Delvers.
Post a review!