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Author Topic: So if you don’t want to use WotC 5E, what do you play?  (Read 3306 times)

GhostNinja

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Re: So if you don’t want to use WotC 5E, what do you play?
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2023, 02:25:15 PM »
it introduces you to an extremely cool system that handles *far* more than just D&D fantasy. It plays faster, scales *way* higher in playability (high level D&D play is a breeze), and it has none of the issues that d20 traditionally has.


I agree 100%.  I love Savage Worlds to death and when SWADE came out I backed it at  $250 for the full kit and kaboodle.   Worth it.
Ghostninja

GhostNinja

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Re: So if you don’t want to use WotC 5E, what do you play?
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2023, 02:28:31 PM »
Well, there is still MAZES & MINOTAURS
http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/revised.html

Thank you for pointing this out.  I am downloading it now and I am taking a look (Although I am not the OP of this thread).
Ghostninja

Zachary The First

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Re: So if you don’t want to use WotC 5E, what do you play?
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2023, 03:00:41 PM »
For my D&D/classic fantasy/OSR fix, I use Castles & Crusades. Great game, great company.

I also love Mythras, and have been quietly working on some stuff for that, as well. The combat system and iteration of d100 (the continuation of RQ6) is absolutely fantastic.
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MeganovaStella

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Re: So if you don’t want to use WotC 5E, what do you play?
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2023, 03:07:16 PM »
This predates the OGL.  Lots of people don’t like D&D 5E.  In my case I just don’t like the rules for AC, hit dice, hit points that go up (AC should go up), and Vancian magic are all reasons to avoid D&D. 

Is it still Old School Essentials?  Is that the standard response to, “What else is there?”

I would steer people to Palladium Books Fantasy, especially 1E.  Sure, it’s got quirks like the stats for shields are not in the equipment section, but written in the proficiency skill description.  2E continues that oddity too, because it’s tradition?!?

Or lots of OSR games that are free.  Dragon Warriors is another I’m starting to warm up to, and currently pay-what-you-want on DT-RPG. 

I don’t think this question has changed.  Avoiding a game with the old 1.0a OGL in it seems petty, as that still isn’t a thing.  In fact, I say get your alternate games now before they go away.

Godbound.

Failing that, Quixalted Extended.

Failing that, Burning Wheel.

Effete

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Re: So if you don’t want to use WotC 5E, what do you play?
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2023, 04:20:18 PM »
I see your Palladium, and I raise you Savage Worlds.

That being said...
I don't dislike 5e as a system. I dislike the bloat and politics that surround it. Give me a core 5e game with a custom homebrew setting and I'll bring the dice and beer. Unfortunately, that's hardly what I ever see, so I simply don't play 5e. (For full disclosure, I moved out to the sticks a little more than a year ago and there aren't really any gamers that I know of, let alone a FLGS, so all my gaming is now done through PbP.) So many of the 5e games I see are advertised as "all official content allowed" and running a pre-gen adventure that everyone who signs up has probably played before. I never jumped onto the PF bandwagon, despite being hard into 3e/3.5 in the early-mid 2000s (I don't even own PF for Savage Worlds), so I don't consider that game an alternative. Besides, the PF bloat is just as bad as the DnD bloat.

So what am I actually playing now?
- Deadlands: Hell on Earth (Savage Worlds)
- Cyberpunk Red
- Forbidden Lands
- Worlds Without Number
- Castles & Crusades (currently on hiatus)
- Numenora
- Dark Ember (a Mork Borg homebrew)

There are so many different games out there. I'm personally interested in several others, but as I mentioned, my real-life situation limits my chances to play them unless I want to start one up and GM. But having been the "forever GM" for most of the last two decades, I'm really enjoying just being a player for now.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2023, 04:28:44 PM by Effete »

Svenhelgrim

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Re: So if you don’t want to use WotC 5E, what do you play?
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2023, 04:25:26 PM »
I am currently running a heavily house-ruled OSE game.  After seven years of 5e it is refreshing to have the power back in my hands. 

I love the work of Kevin Crawford (Stars Without Number, Worlds Without Number) and will incorporate his stuff into my own games.  But I am basically running a mish-mash of 40-years of reading rpg books, on a B/X framework.

3catcircus

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Re: So if you don’t want to use WotC 5E, what do you play?
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2023, 05:25:29 PM »
I see your Palladium, and I raise you Savage Worlds.

That being said...
I don't dislike 5e as a system. I dislike the bloat and politics that surround it. Give me a core 5e game with a custom homebrew setting and I'll bring the dice and beer. Unfortunately, that's hardly what I ever see, so I simply don't play 5e. (For full disclosure, I moved out to the sticks a little more than a year ago and there aren't really any gamers that I know of, let alone a FLGS, so all my gaming is now done through PbP.) So many of the 5e games I see are advertised as "all official content allowed" and running a pre-gen adventure that everyone who signs up has probably played before. I never jumped onto the PF bandwagon, despite being hard into 3e/3.5 in the early-mid 2000s (I don't even own PF for Savage Worlds), so I don't consider that game an alternative. Besides, the PF bloat is just as bad as the DnD bloat.

So what am I actually playing now?
- Deadlands: Hell on Earth (Savage Worlds)
- Cyberpunk Red
- Forbidden Lands
- Worlds Without Number
- Castles & Crusades (currently on hiatus)
- Numenora
- Dark Ember (a Mork Borg homebrew)

There are so many different games out there. I'm personally interested in several others, but as I mentioned, my real-life situation limits my chances to play them unless I want to start one up and GM. But having been the "forever GM" for most of the last two decades, I'm really enjoying just being a player for now.

I would say that 5e in it's core incarnation already is *not useful* bloat.  That is, it adds bloat without adding any additional usability features or fixing any shortcomings. Meaning - the system tried to play like BD&D, but the rules it has don't get things done and the bloat doesn't do anything to address that.

3.5/PF1 at least always added bloat to fix a loophole/exploit a loophole, add some type of meaningful ful flavor, or add a new thing - as the math increases, you're at least tacking on to an existing larger amount of math.

I want systems that either don't get in the way (which 5e didn't do) or that does a good job of trying to simulate that which it represents.  The rules need to *do* something to help players and GMs execute the rules. Example:  3.0 having a long-ish list of skills discretized the understanding of what you can do. Not having a list of skills whatsoever let's the GM fully arbitrate edge case calls. Cleaning that list of 3.0 skills in 3.5/PF1 is just a "lessons learnt" from gameplay. 5e's pared down list does none of the above - it just breeds ambiguity in play.

This is the same reason why I love Twilight:2013 but am ambivalent towards Twilight:2000 4e.  I don't need a game to have to give me a table telling me a "Value of 'A' = d12, Value of 'B' = d10." Just give me the raw math. This is why I love HARP but not Rollmaster - enough substance to the rules without becoming unwieldy.  The same reason why I loved FASERIP MSH back in the day - the rules support the gameplay rather than being force-fit to the gameplay.

Savage Worlds might scratch the itch for some, but I'm waiting to see what shakes out of the fallout of WotC's current actions. Let's see what becomes the D&D killer in a few years like PF 1e did to 4e.

Kyle Aaron

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Re: So if you don’t want to use WotC 5E, what do you play?
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2023, 05:40:26 PM »
If you are that particular about what you like then why not just create your own game?
Being creative is harder work than complaining. Worse, you will then risk the same kind of grizzling mumbling critiques you have been subjecting other game writers to.

Once you're actually at the game table it doesn't matter a huge amount, though. In order of importance to the success of a game session: people, snacks, setting, system. When you're not gaming all you have to do is read (or write!) game systems, which leads you to overestimate their importance.

I love AD&D1e and loathe 5e. But I'd rather play 5E with the best 5 gamers I ever played with than play 1e with the worst 5. The OP needs to stop reading rpgs and return to playing them.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2023, 05:48:28 PM by Kyle Aaron »
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Ratman_tf

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Re: So if you don’t want to use WotC 5E, what do you play?
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2023, 05:43:11 PM »
This predates the OGL.  Lots of people don’t like D&D 5E.  In my case I just don’t like the rules for AC, hit dice, hit points that go up (AC should go up), and Vancian magic are all reasons to avoid D&D. 

Is it still Old School Essentials?  Is that the standard response to, “What else is there?”

I would steer people to Palladium Books Fantasy, especially 1E.  Sure, it’s got quirks like the stats for shields are not in the equipment section, but written in the proficiency skill description.  2E continues that oddity too, because it’s tradition?!?

From what I remember, Palladium Fantasy has AC, "Hit Dice" (Rolling dice to add hit points every level), and Hit Points that go up. Am I remembering wrong, or is it the way that D&D/5e does it specifically that you dislike?
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rytrasmi

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Re: So if you don’t want to use WotC 5E, what do you play?
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2023, 06:12:02 PM »
If you are that particular about what you like then why not just create your own game?
Being creative is harder work than complaining. Worse, you will then risk the same kind of grizzling mumbling critiques you have been subjecting other game writers to.

Once you're actually at the game table it doesn't matter a huge amount, though. In order of importance to the success of a game session: people, snacks, setting, system. When you're not gaming all you have to do is read (or write!) game systems, which leads you to overestimate their importance.

I love AD&D1e and loathe 5e. But I'd rather play 5E with the best 5 gamers I ever played with than play 1e with the worst 5. The OP needs to stop reading rpgs and return to playing them.

I wholeheartedly agree! A group that shows up regularly gets along reasonably well is solid gold. I’ve got a couple or three groups that I’d play any game with.

Hit me up if you're in the Toronto area and you wanna play Hyperborea 3E!

danskmacabre

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Re: So if you don’t want to use WotC 5E, what do you play?
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2023, 06:21:24 PM »
For me, I was getting sick of 5e from a couple of years back anyway. So the whole OGL thing blowing up is only really secondary to moving away from 5e/WotC.

FWIW though. I've been running OSE since it came out really and I've thoroughly enjoyed it.
It's very different than 5e though, so if you're looking to replicate 5e, OSE is not your answer, which is Basic DnD with in the advanced version, some aspects of ADnD added.

I'm intending to get back into other RPGs I used to play a lot, such as Call of Cthulhu and various Indie RPGs I want to try out.

So the net effect of the OGL Drama for me is a move away from DnD style gaming more and the DnD I DO play is a way more simplified DnD in OSE.

SHARK

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Re: So if you don’t want to use WotC 5E, what do you play?
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2023, 06:36:56 PM »
This predates the OGL.  Lots of people don’t like D&D 5E.  In my case I just don’t like the rules for AC, hit dice, hit points that go up (AC should go up), and Vancian magic are all reasons to avoid D&D. 

We get it. You don't like D&D. You play other games. Is that your entire personality?

Greetings!

*Laughing* Cheers, Bruwulf. I was thinking the same thoughts from reading other threads as well. WeirdGuy always chimes in--with the same pronouncements. Funny stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

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Spinachcat

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Re: So if you don’t want to use WotC 5E, what do you play?
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2023, 09:14:22 PM »
Another hearty agreement for more gamers trying out Palladium Fantasy 1e.

Well, there is still MAZES & MINOTAURS
http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/revised.html

A most excellent suggestion!
I've run several M&M campaigns and love that game!

If anyone is seeking a Not-D&D, Not-D20 free fantasy game, I highly suggest checking out Warrior, Rogue & Mage and its half-dozen free supplements.
http://www.stargazergames.eu/warrior-rogue-mage/
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/82643/Warrior-Rogue--Mage
https://www.lulu.com/shop/michael-wolf/warrior-rogue-mage/paperback/product-1dnzr77j.html?page=1&pageSize=4





Effete

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Re: So if you don’t want to use WotC 5E, what do you play?
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2023, 09:30:12 PM »
I would say that 5e in it's core incarnation already is *not useful* bloat.  That is, it adds bloat without adding any additional usability features or fixing any shortcomings. Meaning - the system tried to play like BD&D, but the rules it has don't get things done and the bloat doesn't do anything to address that.

I don't actually disagree with this sentiment, though I suspect we might indentify different problem-areas of the game. For me, 5e has far too many classes. They could really just slim it down to maybe 4 or 5 classes, and expand those out with subclasses.

But as far as having a functional, baseline system, 5e is fine. All the other weirdness could be houseruled, like gamers have done for decades.

Quote
I want systems that either don't get in the way (which 5e didn't do) or that does a good job of trying to simulate that which it represents.  The rules need to *do* something to help players and GMs execute the rules. Example:  3.0 having a long-ish list of skills discretized the understanding of what you can do. Not having a list of skills whatsoever let's the GM fully arbitrate edge case calls. Cleaning that list of 3.0 skills in 3.5/PF1 is just a "lessons learnt" from gameplay. 5e's pared down list does none of the above - it just breeds ambiguity in play.

Numenera is probably worse when it comes to skills. There isn't even a comprehensive list like there is in 5e; it's just a handful of examples the book passes out for taking certain abilities. The rest is up to players to invent. The general idea is that skills are as broad or as specific as the player wants them to be. You can have one character who is trained in wilderness survival and another trained in arctic survival, and the GM needs to adjucate how those skills function in a given situation. Typically, a more specific skill receives a lower (or higher) Difficulty than a broad skill would. However, this is placing a lot of trust on the GM to make proper calls. I think this is why the gamerules encourage players to essentially argue with the GM about how their skills and abilities would help in a situation. It presents a sort of "fail-safe" in case the GM is too inexperienced /inattentive /drunk / retarded /whatever. But a lot of players coming from DnD and other systems that basically treat the GM's word as the word of God, would likely find a Numenera game too abstract, ambiguous, and lacking.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2023, 09:44:10 PM by Effete »

3catcircus

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Re: So if you don’t want to use WotC 5E, what do you play?
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2023, 09:49:55 PM »
I would say that 5e in it's core incarnation already is *not useful* bloat.  That is, it adds bloat without adding any additional usability features or fixing any shortcomings. Meaning - the system tried to play like BD&D, but the rules it has don't get things done and the bloat doesn't do anything to address that.

I don't actually disagree with this sentiment, though I suspect we might indentify different problem-areas of the game. For me, 5e has far too many classes. They could really just slim it down to maybe 4 or 5 classes, and expand those out with subclasses.

But as far as having a functional, baseline system, 5e is fine. All the other weirdness could be houseruled, like gamers have done for decades.

I dunno. Part of the problem I have with 5e is the nature of the basics of class and subclass. It's like they've taken 3.x, dumbed it down, and then said "Ta daa!!" It's no different than taking THAC0, reversing the negative sign to get BAB, and declaring it a new thing.