I remember when that review first came out.  Good stuff, great intro.

Quote from: kregmosierno, i respectfully 100% disagree...that's the entirety of the story right there.  It's a game, that's its sole purpose.

For me, it's not...  I don't have enough hours or energy to play every single game or game product I purchase.  I don't just buy RPG products as games; I also enjoy reading them when they're well-presented and thought-provoking.

I find game mechanics interesting, and love it when a game sparks my imagination.  I want to read through a game book and say, "Hey, this sounds like fun!  I'd love to try out this option or that option!"

Say what you will about them, WotC has done a very good job with a number of their newer products.  Other standouts for me are WFRP2, Arcana Evolved, and even (on the lighter end of the scale) FATE.  Actually, 1e AD&D products  are on this end of the spectrum, too.

On the other end of the spectrum (for me anyways) are Mongoose RuneQuest and other stripped-down products which read more like instruction manuals for boardgames or technical documents.

C&C was somewhere in the middle for me.  While it's well-presented, I didn't get much of a sense of wonder from it, or a real anxiousness to try out the game.  That's part of what I was referring to in my first post.

-O

Quote from: jgantsAs for making a social thief - that's easy in C&C, just make Cha a prime.

That helps some.  But as I mentioned in my earlier post, that social thief is exactly as good at his social capabilities at 10th level as he was at 1st.  Mechanically, he doesn't improve at all.

For some, that's not really a sticking point.  For me, it's very critical.  There's no mechanical way for that character to advance his non-thiefy capabilities.

-O

Quote from: kregmosierYeah, if you're like 12, or a raccoon and easily distracted by shiny objects.

Or, if you know, you live in reality.

Quote from: kregmosierno, i respectfully 100% disagree...that's the entirety of the story right there.  It's a game, that's its sole purpose.

You don't respectfully disagree. You started your disagreement with a smart ass remark.

What you buy—in this case, the C&C rulebook—is not the game. It's a set of instructions for the game.

Thus the raison d'etre for said product is to pass information to the user. If something gets in the way of that, whether it gets in the way during play or while the rules are being processed initially, that's a problem.

The reason you have art, fancy covers, cover copy, trade dress, etc. with RPG products is because the products are supposed to market themselves to a certain degree. So if there's something about the product that's unappealing or disconnected, that's a problem.

Seanchai

Quote from: jrientsI remember when that review first came out.  Good stuff, great intro.

Thanks, jrients!   I would like to write more reviews, but I just don't seem to have the time & energy these days ...

Quote from: Seanchai... The reason you have art, fancy covers, cover copy, trade dress, etc. with RPG products is because the products are supposed to market themselves to a certain degree. So if there's something about the product that's unappealing or disconnected, that's a problem.

Seanchai

While the first printing of the C&C PHB had sub-par editing and formatting, the second printing is rather fine IMO.  The cover is attractive, as is the interior art, and the layout if decent.  While I don't care for some of the 'fluff' writing, that's no big deal.  It certainly isn't as dry as most WotC products (IMO!).  Personally, I prefer black and white pages over glossy colour stuff, as it's easier to read and the pages have better texture.

In any case, the second printing of the C&C PHB is a decent product, aesthetically speaking.  It's certainly 'above average' with respect to non-WotC/BI/WW books in the RPG market.

Quote from: jdrakehYou're being deliberately obtuse, of course. Note that combat ability in D&D 3x is not dependent upon base BAB alone. Specifically, there are a myriad of feats (even in the core rule books) that allow one to specialize in certain combat styles, modes of defense, weapons, etc.

In the end, the BAB is by far the most important aspect of combat ability.  Something like Cleave or Whirlwind Attack or whatever might be handy once in a while, but not all that often.  There's a couple that are more useful - like Two Weapon Fighting or Weapon Focus - but even those won't exactly make your Rogue a badass swordsman on their own.

Quote from: jdrakehNot the same thing, friend. In D&D 3.5 you can mechanically specialize in specific aspects of social parley (and many other broad categories of interaction). In D&D 3x you can have a thief who is an accomplished liar, but a horribly inept diplomat. Again, this isn't even an option in C&C.

The point is that D&D (and all other systems with actual skills) allow for a degree of mechanical  customization that C&C (and all other systems that eschew specific skills) don't. Mechanical abstraction is the exact opposite of providing mechanical options (such abstractions does, however, accommodate thematic options better, IME).

I agree that skills increase mechanical customization.  What I disagree with is the degree to which a character can actually customize in D&D.  I really don't think there's enough of a potential difference there to be worth bothering with, particularly for a fantasy game.

Quote from: jdrakehThat said, given your previous hyperbole about all D&D 3x games being about optimum builds and powergaming wankery, I suspect that you're incapable of discussing these things through a lens of reason.  

Quit stuffing the scarecrow.     What I was saying is that because there are optimum builds (some abilities are far more useful than others), characters tend to look almost as alike in D&D 3.X (and point build games - every combat-ready character in GURPS ends up with combat reflexes, for example) that the "options" become somewhat meaningless.

As for "powergaming wankery", that was solely in reference to open multi-classing where players end up with characters that have 4 or more classes just because they wanted a bunch of different abilities; even though its a rare character concept that it would actually fit for.

Quote from: jdrakehI mean, 'cmon -- that remark about BAB was a horribly transparent strawman. I never mentioned BAB originally (for the reasons I point out in this post). Puh-lease :rolleyes:

I didn't say you mentioned BAB.  You talked about creating a Rogue who is an expert swordsman.  My point is that two Rogues at level X are basically equal swordsmen because BAB is so much more imporant than feats.

Quote from: obrynThat helps some.  But as I mentioned in my earlier post, that social thief is exactly as good at his social capabilities at 10th level as he was at 1st.  Mechanically, he doesn't improve at all.

For some, that's not really a sticking point.  For me, it's very critical.  There's no mechanical way for that character to advance his non-thiefy capabilities.

Actually, it automatically advances every level.  Because the SEIGE system adds your level in as a bonus when you roll (unless you are trying to mimic something that falls under another class' special ability).

Quote from: AkrasiaWhile the first printing of the C&C PHB had sub-par editing and formatting, the second printing is rather fine IMO.  The cover is attractive, as is the interior art, and the layout if decent.  While I don't care for some of the 'fluff' writing, that's no big deal.  It certainly isn't as dry as most WotC products (IMO!).  Personally, I prefer black and white pages over glossy colour stuff, as it's easier to read and the pages have better texture.

In any case, the second printing of the C&C PHB is a decent product, aesthetically speaking.  It's certainly 'above average' with respect to non-WotC/BI/WW books in the RPG market.

You should be telling this to the OP. C&C isn't something I'm interested in.

Seanchai

Quote from: jgantsActually, it automatically advances every level.  Because the SEIGE system adds your level in as a bonus when you roll (unless you are trying to mimic something that falls under another class' special ability).

IIRC, you only add your level to class abilities.  I don't believe there are any social class abilities for Rogues, so a social Rogue would not get better as he levels up.

Quote from: jgantsActually, it automatically advances every level.  Because the SEIGE system adds your level in as a bonus when you roll (unless you are trying to mimic something that falls under another class' special ability).

My reading of it was that your class level only adds when it's something that explicitly falls under your class's abilities.  I may have misread.  If it's the way the rules state it, I mostly withdraw that specific objection.  I'd still like to see an ability to specialize, but that necessarily comes at a cost in complexity.

[...and Technomancer said basically the same thing.  I'm too slow at teh intarweb.]

-O

Quote from: TechnomancerIIRC, you only add your level to class abilities.  I don't believe there are any social class abilities for Rogues, so a social Rogue would not get better as he levels up.

I'm pretty sure its the opposite - that you add levels for everything unless its somebody else's class ability.

I don't have the book in front of me to double check, though.

Quote from: SeanchaiYou should be telling this to the OP. C&C isn't something I'm interested in.

Seanchai

The OP (me) already has the 2nd printing.

I'll agree that, aesthetically, it's fine and quite decent for an OGL product, apart from some quibbles I noted way up in the post somewhere regarding the Classes section.

-O

Quote from: jgantsI'm pretty sure its the opposite - that you add levels for everything unless its somebody else's class ability.

I don't have the book in front of me to double check, though.

I'll take a look-see when I get home to make sure.

Quote from: jgantsI'm pretty sure its the opposite - that you add levels for everything unless its somebody else's class ability.

I don't have the book in front of me to double check, though.

You are correct sir.  Though it's entirely at the GMs discretion to even let you TRY to use other classes abilities at all.  Personally, I'd say if the attribute is prime, add your level to those checks, other class ability or not.  But that's just how I roll.  

Quote from: MegamanfanYou are correct sir.  Though it's entirely at the GMs discretion to even let you TRY to use other classes abilities at all.  Personally, I'd say if the attribute is prime, add your level to those checks, other class ability or not.  But that's just how I roll.  

I roll the same way.