Quote from: hedgehobbit;1145367All money spent on gaming is disposable. That doesn't mean that if I buy a $50 game at a game store and come home to find the box empty that I wasn't harmed in any way.

Except you didn't go to the game store to buy a game. That's the entire fucking point. People tend to think of KS as some kind of pre-order platform when it is nothing of the sort. You are not exchanging money in return for a product. You are contributing funds to develop a product that may or may not ever see the light of day. Yes, people hope that the project is successful and that they get their "rewards" out of it. This is why people tend to confuse it with making an investment. What you're actually doing is more akin to dropping money into a donation bucket. Viewing it any other way is ass backwards. Which is why I maintain, and will maintain for all eternity, that the harm done here (which is a preposterous word choice, by the way - you kids need a grown-up definition of the word*) was done by you to yourself the moment you contributed to the project. Own it and move the fuck on.

Definition of the word Harm: Physical or mental injury, especially that which is deliberately inflicted.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1145375Except you didn't go to the game store to buy a game. That's the entire fucking point. People tend to think of KS as some kind of pre-order platform when it is nothing of the sort. You are not exchanging money in return for a product. You are contributing funds to develop a product that may or may not ever see the light of day. Yes, people hope that the project is successful and that they get their "rewards" out of it. This is why people tend to confuse it with making an investment. What you're actually doing is more akin to dropping money into a donation bucket. Viewing it any other way is ass backwards. Which is why I maintain, and will maintain for all eternity, that the harm done here (which is a preposterous word choice, by the way - you kids need a grown-up definition of the word*) was done by you to yourself the moment you contributed to the project. Own it and move the fuck on.

Definition of the word Harm: Physical or mental injury, especially that which is deliberately inflicted.

Kickstarters are not, and have never been, donation pails. Unlike other crowdfunding platforms, creators have to actually provide something. And a promise of goods and services in return for remuneration is a contractual agreement. Projects may fail, and it's generally not worth the effort to file a civil suit, but they still made a commitment. By backing a KS project, you're not giving money to a charity, or funding the creator's life. That's simply not how it works.

Bringing up investments again just confuses the issue. Kickstarters aren't investments. You don't invest money to get a fixed reward. Investments are high risk, high reward, generally via equity.

And

Quote from: West's Encyclopedia of American Law, edition 2Injury
A comprehensive term for any wrong or harm done by one individual to another individual's body, rights, reputation, or property. Any interference with an individual's legally protected interest.

A civil injury is any damage done to person or property that is precipitated by a breach of contract, Negligence, or breach of duty. The law of torts provides remedies for injury caused by negligent or intentional acts.

An accidental injury is an injury to the body caused unintentionally. Within the meaning of Workers' Compensation acts, it is an injury occurring in the course of employment.

One who is injured might be able to recover damages against the individual who caused him or her harm, since the law seeks to provide a remedy for every injury.

That's how the term "harm" is being used.

Quote from: Pat;1145363It wasn't shared with his backers, which the absolute minimum standard of accountability.

Autarch shared what they wanted to share. The fact they didn't share an exact amount is their business.

QuoteJames Maliszewski transferred to Autarch the Kickstarter funds necessary for us to complete the Dwimmermount project and pay the artists who haven't been compensated for their work.

Quote from: Pat;1145363Though that wasn't the responsibility of Autarch, anyway. They're blameless, and deserve kudos for going far beyond the call of duty.

Yes, Autarch did good work and James was lucky that they stepped in.

Quote from: Pat;1145363He hasn't made amends, so we have a responsibility to ensure people are warned that he's a bad actor.

If he turns back to crowdfounding then is the time. Right now you are being vindictive.

Quote from: estar;1145389Autarch shared what they wanted to share. The fact they didn't share an exact amount is their business.

Like I said in the next sentence, it's not Autarch's responsibility. It's Maliszewski's.

Quote from: Pat;1145390Like I said in the next sentence, it's not Autarch's responsibility. It's Maliszewski's.

QuoteFrom the home campaign of GROGNARDIA's James Maliszewski to your gaming table, thanks to your support and a partnership with Autarch

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/autarch/dwimmermount

No it is both of them. Autarch went into the kickstarter as partners of James Maliszewski. Autarch stepped up to the plate when James faltered, supplied what details they wanted too, and completed the kickstarter. They and James don't owe the backers a fuller explanation as Dwimmermount was delivered. Instead you choose to believe that Autarch were lying that when they said that sufficient funds were turned over to complete the kickstarter.  

Quote from: Pat;1145346He ran off with almost $50,000, and was never punished and never provided restitution to those he harmed. The inability to recognize and exclude a bad actor like Maliszewski is a classic example of the geek social fallacies at play.

Again this statement is not accurate and show ignorance of the situation as I have shown. James turned over the funds that were not spent on fees (10% - 5% to KS, 5% for payment processing) and payments to artists. Everybody publishing or promoting in the OSR is well aware of what happened and the pain that it caused Autarch to deal with this.

If James want to so something on his own dime, he should be able to do it without being hassled by false accusations.  If he turns to crowdfunding then it is a different story.

Quote from: estar;1145406If James want to so something on his own dime, he should be able to do it without being hassled by false accusations.  If he turns to crowdfunding then it is a different story.

That's not how any of this works...

Quote from: Pat;1145386Kickstarters are not, and have never been, donation pails. Unlike other crowdfunding platforms, creators have to actually provide something. And a promise of goods and services in return for remuneration is a contractual agreement. Projects may fail, and it's generally not worth the effort to file a civil suit, but they still made a commitment. By backing a KS project, you're not giving money to a charity, or funding the creator's life. That's simply not how it works.

Bringing up investments again just confuses the issue. Kickstarters aren't investments. You don't invest money to get a fixed reward. Investments are high risk, high reward, generally via equity.

And

That's how the term "harm" is being used.

None of those definitions apply. Three out of four are explicitly about injury. The fourth, being the loosest, is about "damage to person or property" that's been precipitated by "breach of contract, negligence, or breach of duty". You'd still have to show damage to person or property, which you could never do here. Nice try though. Next time, try actually reading the definitions first.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1145375Except you didn't go to the game store to buy a game. That's the entire fucking point. People tend to think of KS as some kind of pre-order platform when it is nothing of the sort. You are not exchanging money in return for a product. You are contributing funds to develop a product that may or may not ever see the light of day. Yes, people hope that the project is successful and that they get their "rewards" out of it. This is why people tend to confuse it with making an investment. What you're actually doing is more akin to dropping money into a donation bucket. Viewing it any other way is ass backwards.

Kickstarter is exactly a pre order system.  Just look at the way it is set up - it is not coincidental that the amount of money that you "invest" corresponds exactly to the product that you receive.

Quote from: estar;1145406No it is both of them. Autarch went into the kickstarter as partners of James Maliszewski. Autarch stepped up to the plate when James faltered, supplied what details they wanted too, and completed the kickstarter. They and James don't owe the backers a fuller explanation as Dwimmermount was delivered. Instead you choose to believe that Autarch were lying that when they said that sufficient funds were turned over to complete the kickstarter.  

Quote from: estar;1145406If James want to so something on his own dime, he should be able to do it without being hassled by false accusations.  If he turns to crowdfunding then it is a different story.

Good point, I forgot Autarch was part of the project from the start. (It's been almost a decade.) I retract that part. And since the backers did receive their product from one of the people behind the project, the project itself was fulfilled. But note I never said or even implied Autarch lied. That's you, misrepresenting what I said. I only said who was responsible for providing what information.

While I was wrong about Autarch's role, that doesn't change a thing about Maliszewski. I made no false accusations about him. But that's twice in one post you've made false accusations about me.

Quote from: estar;1145406James turned over the funds that were not spent on fees (10% - 5% to KS, 5% for payment processing) and payments to artists.

That's good to know, but it's not your responsibility to share that information, either.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1145412None of those definitions apply. Three out of four are explicitly about injury. The fourth, being the loosest, is about "damage to person or property" that's been precipitated by "breach of contract, negligence, or breach of duty". You'd still have to show damage to person or property, which you could never do here. Nice try though. Next time, try actually reading the definitions first.

There aren't 4 definitions in the quote. There is 1, and then 2 specific types of injury that fall under the broader definition. Even if we count the sub-types as separate definitions, that only adds up to 3, not 4. All of them are about injury, because the entire section is a definition of injury. If you meant physical injury, then only 1 of the sub-definitions is specifically about physical injury. Not 3 out of 4. And you're lecturing other people about reading the text? The definition clearly applies.

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Quote from: Pat;1145420I only said who was responsible for providing what information.

To wit

Quote from: Pat;1145346He ran off with almost $50,000, and was never punished and never provided restitution to those he harmed. The inability to recognize and exclude a bad actor like Maliszewski is a classic example of the geek social fallacies at play.

=====================================================

Quote from: Pat;1145420But note I never said or even implied Autarch lied. That's you, misrepresenting what I said.

Considering this
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/autarch/dwimmermount/posts/434984

Quote from: AutarchI'm very happy to announce that this afternoon, James Maliszewski transferred to Autarch the Kickstarter funds necessary for us to complete the Dwimmermount project and pay the artists who haven't been compensated for their work.

in light of this statement by you

Quote from: Pat;1145346He ran off with almost $50,000, and was never punished and never provided restitution to those he harmed. The inability to recognize and exclude a bad actor like Maliszewski is a classic example of the geek social fallacies at play.

So either you contend that the above is true which would preclude the possibility that James transferred any of the $48,756 that the kickstarter to Autarch thus making the update post I linked to a false statement by Autarch.

Or

You are wrong about what happened and made a inaccurate and inflammatory statement about the events that occurred.  
 

Quote from: Pat;1145346While I was wrong about Autarch's role, that doesn't change a thing about Maliszewski. I made no false accusations about him. But that's twice in one post you've made false accusations about me.

I will let the readers draw their own conclusions. Including the attempt to shift away from whether your above statement is accurate to one about whose responsibility it is to talk to the backers.

There's a 180 page thread here that ran contemporaneous with the entire fiasco, where Macris and Tavis commented extensively.  

https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?24039-Backers-pissed-at-James-M-and-Dwimmermount&highlight=dwimmermount

Pat, James did not run off with nearly $50K. Let it go man. We've all been where you are right now, and all regretted digging in once we realized we were wrong.

The biggest mistake is Kickstarters giving out rewards.

If you wanna back some project, knock yourself out. The only kickstarter I ever gave money to was to support the artist. I got a compilation book, stickers and other goodies, but that wasn't the point.

But making it some kind of expectation of good for money, when the whole point is that some of these projects are incredibly risky, being run by one person out of their apartment or garage, is a recipe for dissapointment.