I must remind you that I am a Super Genius and You Are Not.

Really, you people.

Quote from: Spike on December 23, 2020, 09:37:31 AM
Weirdly I only just now remembered a big one that was supposed to go into the OP, but... despite being the inspiration for the thread somehow got utterly forgotten when it came to write it up.

Build Substituition Meta Rules*

This is when the game designer puts in methods of making alternative 'builds' for characters, usually to overcome some deficiency in his design, as a patch, and is closely related to the phenomenon of keeping PCs weak and incompetent (the zero to hero, where Zero is often roughly equivalent to a twelve year old child in terms of general competence).  The first time I ever noticed it, and a decent example to explain what I mean, was in Brave New World, where they introduced a new Martial Art using the 'Spirit' stat to make 'battle nuns' more competent fighters.  I vaguely recall that by the end of the game line you could have a Martial Art based on any of your stats, so you could have a nerdy martial artist who could beat Bruce Lee by punching him with his brain-thoughts, or maybe I only imagined that because of the implications of the addition of the Two-Inch Prayer Fist.
-snip-
I'm not trying to pick on Brave New World (not that I'm worried about rabid fanboys for a more or less dead game) or the Year Zero engine games. I've seen this elsewhere, but they were the examples most ready to mind for me, for reasons I think I explained well enough above. 

Yes, that is a great example of the kind of fud RPGs can make when you think of stats/skills as separate entities within the system and then attempt to 'blend' them together like a smoothie. I've always been of the opinion that a skill is representitive of competence, that it wouldn't matter if you have a low agility if you have a high acrobatics. To me, it means the character has formal training as an acrobat but is otherwise a clutz. If that doesn't sit well with you, I agree! This is the problem with the current paradigm and may never be fully solved! How does one quantify a skillset in relation to a physical or mental attribute within a numeric system which takes nuance into account?
I'm only asking, cuz - you know - you're a genius! 

Quote from: Spike on December 23, 2020, 09:37:31 AM
Weirdly I only just now remembered a big one that was supposed to go into the OP, but... despite being the inspiration for the thread somehow got utterly forgotten when it came to write it up.

Build Substituition Meta Rules*

...

I always thought of that as building a system and then going back and slapping patches on it to let it fit the characters/genre/whatever you were really aiming for.  I actually have zero problem with it in small doses, but I do agree that some systems feel like nothing but patches.

It's an understandable urge. Going back to the core system and tweaking it is a lot harder to do and it's easy to accidently break something else when you do.

I've found that it's especially common on systems such as Modiphius's 2d20 or PbA where the core system was brought in whole before any of the pieces were thought out rather than having the specific system/vibe in mind when building the pillars of the mechanics from the ground up.

A lot of those meta-mechanics come down to not having the right set of stats for the system and how the skills are tied to specific other attributes.

For example, D6 Star Wars works really well because it's stats are well tuned to the setting. It doesn't bother to distinguish between strength and constitution since in that setting strength and resilience are both functions of size and density.

At the same time it does distinguish between Dexterity and Mechanical aptitude since, I can tell you as a pilot there's a world of difference between the full body actions Dex covers vs. the coordination and multi-tasking required to fly a plane. At the same time they distinguish between mechanical aptitude and technical skill (diagnosing and repairing systems) and between technical skill and more general knowledge.

Then you drop Star Wars into the d20 System. Dex now handles blasters, acrobatics and piloting, but every other aspect of mechanical is now INT-based and lightsabers are Strength-based by default because they're melee weapons. Likewise, INT covers all of knowledge and technical and bits of mechanical while d6 Strength gets split into Str and Con and D6 Perception into d20 Wisdom and Charisma.

The D&D stats don't quite fit the setting so kludges get added.

An example of this in reverse was actually when I converted my LUGTrek campaign to the d6 system. If you actually look at LUGTrek something like 80% of the skills were tied to intellect because their four stats of basically Str, Dex, Int and Presence and a setting focus on science/technology, logic and diplomacy as solutions made half their stats only good in a small subset of situations (but cost as much each as Int alone).

The WEG Star Wars base offered a lot more options since it better divided mental ability into more categories. I took it a step further and merged Str and Dex into Fitness since in Star Trek you're either physically competent or not and it rarely matters whether that prowess comes from agility or power. Thus one physical stat (fitness) and five mental ones (knowledge, perception, mechanical, technical and presence) better reflects the focus of the series and allows each PC to shine in ways proportional to the investment and in different areas vs. one stat being a nigh universal solution to all problems.

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 24, 2020, 11:09:09 AM
Then you drop Star Wars into the d20 System. Dex now handles blasters, acrobatics and piloting, but every other aspect of mechanical is now INT-based and lightsabers are Strength-based by default because they're melee weapons. Likewise, INT covers all of knowledge and technical and bits of mechanical while d6 Strength gets split into Str and Con and D6 Perception into d20 Wisdom and Charisma.

Yep - this is a solid example of what I was talking about above.

I actually don't hate the Saga d20 Star Wars. It's not bad, and it's a good way to get people who already know d20 into a Star Wars game as they already know the basic mechanics. But there is definitely some kludge as they had to shoehorn Star Wars into the d20 mold. Perhaps most obvious being DEX being the god-stat for 95% of builds. Even most Jedi are better off using finesse and going DEX rather than STR if they want to go lightsaber focused - the only exception are the more force-based Jedi. Virtually all non-Jedi should go DEX top with other attributes as secondary.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on December 24, 2020, 11:39:27 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 24, 2020, 11:09:09 AM
Then you drop Star Wars into the d20 System. Dex now handles blasters, acrobatics and piloting, but every other aspect of mechanical is now INT-based and lightsabers are Strength-based by default because they're melee weapons. Likewise, INT covers all of knowledge and technical and bits of mechanical while d6 Strength gets split into Str and Con and D6 Perception into d20 Wisdom and Charisma.

Yep - this is a solid example of what I was talking about above.

I actually don't hate the Saga d20 Star Wars. It's not bad, and it's a good way to get people who already know d20 into a Star Wars game as they already know the basic mechanics. But there is definitely some kludge as they had to shoehorn Star Wars into the d20 mold. Perhaps most obvious being DEX being the god-stat for 95% of builds. Even most Jedi are better off using finesse and going DEX rather than STR if they want to go lightsaber focused - the only exception are the more force-based Jedi. Virtually all non-Jedi should go DEX top with other attributes as secondary.

Yeah, D&D's attributes work for it because they play into specific conceits of the fantasy genre and I think a lot of that grew from the fact that their original effects in OD&D were largely the XP bonus they granted to the matching class meant that they were well matched.

Side-bar; I do wonder what a game where your stats only affected the rate you could improve class features; anyone can learn to fight or cast spells, the xp costs are just lower for those with high strength or intelligence respectively... a jack of all stats would pay more for individual levels, but less than high strength/low intelligence PC trying to learn wizard spells.

Anyway, it almost seems like a lot of the older games outside the fantasy genre were stronger more because they didn't feel the need to bank on the OGL/d20SRD and so just had better tailored stats whereas these days the default seems to be start with the d20 stats/mechanics and only deviate if it just proves impossible to deform the genre up enough to fit.

Side-bar 2; Just from my own experience the systems that seem to need to deviate most are genres where vehicles have particular focus (ex. Mecha and/or space combat particularly) just because personal scale stats just don't scale well to 50 ton war machines. The few systems I've seen try to pull off mecha using d20 stats just pale compared to dedicated systems like Mekton, Battletech or Jovian Chronicles.

Which is why, when I eventually write up my sci-fi themed RPG to follow up my fantasy one I'm not even going to try to make them fully compatible... though basic task resolution and action economy could be the same, the stat priority would be completely different and armor as degrading resistance feels more in line with the genre than AC would be.

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 26, 2020, 10:45:48 PMthe more experienced you are in a given skill the better you are at judging your ability with it

Dunning and Kruger found that the best performers were also not good at judging their own ability. The difference was, the top performers underestimated themselves where the lower performers overestimated. The people who most accurately judged their own performance were in the third quartile.

To put Dunning and Kruger's findings in D&D terms, if your stat roll was 10 or less, you'd estimate your ability as about 11. If it was 11 or 12, you'd get it about right. If it was 13 or more, you'd estimate about 12.

I think the SJW-safe things more than anything. Including genger politic and racial policing hurt Paizo with Pathfinder 2e. It threw off a portion of the gamer base and it was apparent on the Paizo forums.

Keep politics out of your game. WotC is doing well to avoid the SJW Twitter cries. They saw what it did to Paizo. The BASE gamer JUST DOESN'T CARE. They want the game as it's supposed to be.

People talk about 50th edition D&D being an SJW paradise.

Don't count on it. I'm expecting something more akin to the Rules Cyclopedia (expanded skills, more classes, expanded combat & downtime rules, plus how to make campaigns more engaging).