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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Shawn Driscoll on July 31, 2021, 04:12:24 PM

Title: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: Shawn Driscoll on July 31, 2021, 04:12:24 PM
This has been going on for some time since MgT2. But with the soon to be announced re-printing of Mongoose Traveller, SJWs may just be put at the front and center.


Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: GeekEclectic on July 31, 2021, 08:19:36 PM
If the dude seriously thinks that a well-muscled body with an obvious bust and softer curves than you'd ever expect to see on a similarly muscled man is a "man's body," maybe he's the problem here . . . and then praising the cleavage-figure, as if showing cleavage in uniform ever makes sense. I think this video just shows that you don't have to be an SJW to say some seriously fucked up things. So . . . thanks for sharing, I guess?
Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: Kyle Aaron on July 31, 2021, 08:42:42 PM
Classic Traveller said you could be whatever race or gender you wanted and it'd have no game mechanical effect on play. It didn't mention sexuality at all, or obesity status or whatever.

Nor did it bother illustrating anyone much, except for one head sketch of Jamieson who always reminded me more of Harry Mudd from Star Trek than anyone else. But it didn't hold you to it. So when you imagined your adventures in the far future, you could put in whoever you wanted in your mental image. Likewise, it left undefined what the "power plants" on the spacecraft were - lithium ion batteries? fusion? fission? coal? magic? Up to you. Didn't mention artificial gravity.

You fill in the blanks. (https://www.thevikinghatgm.com/2021/02/ct-books-1-3-you-fill-in-blanks.html) This is an approach I am on board with.

People forget how inclusive games were back in the 1970s.
Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: Thornhammer on July 31, 2021, 10:15:46 PM
I think I'd greenstuff some more hair onto the one at the top left and turn her into Pam from Archer. And the more I think about it, the more I like the idea.

The others, hell I like those. They all seem like they would be useful generic figures.
Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: HappyDaze on July 31, 2021, 11:12:07 PM
"And then this guy...this guy..."

OK, so the OP doesn't like the minis, whatever...but I'm not seeing it as some crazy SJW plot to destroy Traveller.
Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: palaeomerus on July 31, 2021, 11:25:54 PM
I remember when Traveller was all about a porn 'stache and navy artillery operator style frill helmets like the ones the rebels and Death Star troops had in Star Wars. That and vests and web belts.

(https://i.imgur.com/7iATPfY.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/Zg8TlLm.png)
Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: palaeomerus on July 31, 2021, 11:35:54 PM
I think the guy is a little clueless about how dumpy 28mm generally tends to make things unless the sculptor has methods to trick your eye but..." seriously fucked up things" ?? What?

Did anyone seriously have a strong visceral reaction over a dude not liking some figures? That's an alarm bell? We need to shut him up to save the world or something? No. Come on.

Personally, I don't see any stronk mental illness haircuts. But I think he does have a point that they are just blah randos in fatigues and a hoody potato that don't tell you a lot about what they are supposed to be and three of them could be in a NATO game in the late 70s or any sort of spies and mercs sort of thing.

I think you want your minis to be known mostly by their gear and you want to make it distinctive to you setting if you can. This fails that test and kind of looks like they could be lost in a sea of the less wacky Reaper Chronoscope minis like Drop Ship warrant officer and Hooded techno wizard guy.

 I don't think these are necessarily 320 Lb. Teela the Linebacker designs.

Below are some old Grenadier Copplestone sculpts that were part of the Future Wars: Kill Zone line from the very late 80s or early 90s. They are chunky because that's just how that usually goes at that scale. Probably someone at Corvus belli can do a lot better but on the whole these aren't bad minis.

Notice that even the longer limbed more feminine sculpts below are chunky big headed things and you have to look at them a certain non literal way for them to work well so they don't look all muppety-lumps.

(https://www.forlornhopegames.co.uk/images/frontend/products/0075.jpg)
(https://www.forlornhopegames.co.uk/images/frontend/products/0052.jpg)
(https://www.forlornhopegames.co.uk/images/frontend/products/0071.jpg)
(https://www.forlornhopegames.co.uk/images/frontend/products/0068.jpg)
(https://www.forlornhopegames.co.uk/images/frontend/products/0034_a.jpg)


I think the Traveler sculpts need a bit more distinctive nick-nacks to mark them as what they are but they aren't awful.
Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: David Johansen on August 01, 2021, 12:00:33 AM
I love Mark Copplestone's stuff.  I've got a huge collection of it all painted up and some day I'mma gonna play Kill Zone with 'em just like Nick Lund intended!
Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: Omega on August 01, 2021, 03:25:15 AM
If the dude seriously thinks that a well-muscled body with an obvious bust and softer curves than you'd ever expect to see on a similarly muscled man is a "man's body," maybe he's the problem here . . . and then praising the cleavage-figure, as if showing cleavage in uniform ever makes sense. I think this video just shows that you don't have to be an SJW to say some seriously fucked up things. So . . . thanks for sharing, I guess?

I think the problem here is the muscle gal looks off while the more natural gal does not. Its not about the chest, ots the presentation overall. With a little trimming or whatnod the muscle one would have worked as well. But as is it looks like a typical Femnazi ideal rather than a female really and so its going to get some reactions. Deserved or not.

Overall the sculpts look fine.

Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: GeekEclectic on August 01, 2021, 07:45:06 AM
I think the guy is a little clueless about how dumpy 28mm generally tends to make things unless the sculptor has methods to trick your eye but..." seriously fucked up things" ?? What?

I said what I said. And the dude in the video said what he said.

1:04 - "That's basically where you take a guy's body and you snap on a woman's head."

I don't for a single second believe that guy can't tell that it's a woman's body. Like I said, it has the bust and the curves that you'd never expect to see on a similarly muscled man. To add to the ridiculousness, he says "woman's head" when that's the only part of the mini that is actually androgynous! Androgynous head on what's clearly a woman's body. A heavily muscled woman, but a woman nonetheless.

1:52 - "She's missing - er, it's missing. The she-man is missing from this corner here."

I don't really have to explain why making an intentional shift from she to it like that is fucked up, or why calling something(or someone) female with a muscular build a she-man is also fucked up, right? I know that, being some kind of anti-SJW, he's not the type of person we're used to seeing fucked up statements from. But fucked up is fucked up, no matter the source.

Quote
Did anyone seriously have a strong visceral reaction over a dude not liking some figures?

No, and I think it's pretty obvious that's not what happened. Dude could have said he didn't like the minis without being all gross about it.

I think the problem here is the muscle gal looks off while the more natural gal does not. Its not about the chest, ots the presentation overall. With a little trimming or whatnod the muscle one would have worked as well. But as is it looks like a typical Femnazi ideal rather than a female really and so its going to get some reactions. Deserved or not.

Overall the sculpts look fine.

The body is fine, but it does look like they didn't finish her face nearly as well as all the others. Everyone else(whose eyes I can actually see) seem to have enough done to make them stand out from the rest of the face, as well as a bit of contour on the nose and cheeks. Lower right dude's even got some contour making his eyebrow ridges pop a bit. Strong lady's just the same shade of solid brown from hairline to neck, including the entirety of her eyes.

But the sculpts really do look fine. That upper middle lady is giving me April O'Neil in space vibes.
Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: palaeomerus on August 01, 2021, 09:57:29 AM
"I said what I said. And the dude in the video said what he said."

Yes, and I poopoo'ed your assessment as insipid, overly sensitive, hyper-dramatic, intolerant, and frankly ridiculous. I don't find your take reasonable at all and I don't take any of it seriously how ever much you 't-pose for dominance' about it. Why should anyone worry about what you find gross? Get a life. Dude doesn't owe you anything.
Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: GeekEclectic on August 01, 2021, 04:50:33 PM
Yes, and I poopoo'ed your assessment as insipid, overly sensitive, hyper-dramatic, intolerant, and frankly ridiculous.

If you can truly defend someone calling what's clearly meant to be a woman an "it," I think that says a lot more about you than me, honestly.

Quote
I don't find your take reasonable at all and I don't take any of it seriously how ever much you 't-pose for dominance' about it. Why should anyone worry about what you find gross? Get a life. Dude doesn't owe you anything.

And I don't owe you anything. So stop being all hyper-dramatic and get a life.  ;)
Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2021, 05:07:01 PM
Yes, and I poopoo'ed your assessment as insipid, overly sensitive, hyper-dramatic, intolerant, and frankly ridiculous.

If you can truly defend someone calling what's clearly meant to be a woman an "it," I think that says a lot more about you than me, honestly.

Quote
I don't find your take reasonable at all and I don't take any of it seriously how ever much you 't-pose for dominance' about it. Why should anyone worry about what you find gross? Get a life. Dude doesn't owe you anything.

And I don't owe you anything. So stop being all hyper-dramatic and get a life.  ;)

Oh noes! Some rando in the internet called a miniature an it!? Oh teh humanities!

Was the miniature offended? How badly were it's feelings hurt? Should we put said rando on a re-education camp or just execute him?
Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: palaeomerus on August 01, 2021, 07:29:36 PM

If you can truly defend someone calling what's clearly meant to be a woman an "it," I think that says a lot more about you than me, honestly.


A miniature is ALWAYS an it. It's an image. A crude simulacrum. A product meant for enjoyment.

All your outrage and hyperbole says about you, assuming it is sincere and not rehearsed fashionable plastic banana claptrap, is that you are a self righteous whiner with a hair trigger & a bit of a  thin skinned clown who demands respect & thus power over speech that your own vapid hysterical positions do not merit.

It says you're a wanna-be "crypto detective telepath" and a "mental hygienist" who thinks witch trials are a pretty neat idea as long as your bullshit is not on the damp end of the dunking stool. I hope your digital piety pays off for you and you can cash in your scooby snack good boy points for a better clown nose in case someone asks if you are mental after someone says a mini has a big head so you accuse them of hating anyone who suffers from gigantism or hydrocephalus.
Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: SHARK on August 01, 2021, 07:42:08 PM
Yes, and I poopoo'ed your assessment as insipid, overly sensitive, hyper-dramatic, intolerant, and frankly ridiculous.

If you can truly defend someone calling what's clearly meant to be a woman an "it," I think that says a lot more about you than me, honestly.

Quote
I don't find your take reasonable at all and I don't take any of it seriously how ever much you 't-pose for dominance' about it. Why should anyone worry about what you find gross? Get a life. Dude doesn't owe you anything.

And I don't owe you anything. So stop being all hyper-dramatic and get a life.  ;)

Oh noes! Some rando in the internet called a miniature an it!? Oh teh humanities!

Was the miniature offended? How badly were it's feelings hurt? Should we put said rando on a re-education camp or just execute him?

Greetings!

Excellent, my friend! I get your tone so well. It made me fucking roar with laughter! ;D

The guy's video about the miniatures was fine. I don't see what all the fucking whining is about.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2021, 08:18:01 PM
Yes, and I poopoo'ed your assessment as insipid, overly sensitive, hyper-dramatic, intolerant, and frankly ridiculous.

If you can truly defend someone calling what's clearly meant to be a woman an "it," I think that says a lot more about you than me, honestly.

Quote
I don't find your take reasonable at all and I don't take any of it seriously how ever much you 't-pose for dominance' about it. Why should anyone worry about what you find gross? Get a life. Dude doesn't owe you anything.

And I don't owe you anything. So stop being all hyper-dramatic and get a life.  ;)

Oh noes! Some rando in the internet called a miniature an it!? Oh teh humanities!

Was the miniature offended? How badly were it's feelings hurt? Should we put said rando on a re-education camp or just execute him?

Greetings!

Excellent, my friend! I get your tone so well. It made me fucking roar with laughter! ;D

The guy's video about the miniatures was fine. I don't see what all the fucking whining is about.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hi there SHARK!

How are you this fine day?

Sarcasm has always been my forte, not always the best tool to be used but, from time to time I luck into using it when appropriate.
Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 02, 2021, 08:16:11 AM
28mm figs are always going to sacrifice a shitpot of fine detail, even nowadays with more sophisticated molding techniques.

Bitching about them is just kinda silly.
Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: Godsmonkey on August 02, 2021, 09:59:12 AM
I see no problems with any of the minis, especially if intended as just random NPC types.

Personally, I want as much diversity in miniatures as possible. Gives my printer more to do.

Is there a link to the kick-starter? I need more space minis.
Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: crkrueger on August 02, 2021, 10:12:40 AM
I think the guy is a little clueless about how dumpy 28mm generally tends to make things unless the sculptor has methods to trick your eye but..." seriously fucked up things" ?? What?

Did anyone seriously have a strong visceral reaction over a dude not liking some figures? That's an alarm bell? We need to shut him up to save the world or something? No. Come on.

Personally, I don't see any stronk mental illness haircuts. But I think he does have a point that they are just blah randos in fatigues and a hoody potato that don't tell you a lot about what they are supposed to be and three of them could be in a NATO game in the late 70s or any sort of spies and mercs sort of thing.

I think you want your minis to be known mostly by their gear and you want to make it distinctive to you setting if you can. This fails that test and kind of looks like they could be lost in a sea of the less wacky Reaper Chronoscope minis like Drop Ship warrant officer and Hooded techno wizard guy.

 I don't think these are necessarily 320 Lb. Teela the Linebacker designs.

Below are some old Grenadier Copplestone sculpts that were part of the Future Wars: Kill Zone line from the very late 80s or early 90s. They are chunky because that's just how that usually goes at that scale. Probably someone at Corvus belli can do a lot better but on the whole these aren't bad minis.

Notice that even the longer limbed more feminine sculpts below are chunky big headed things and you have to look at them a certain non literal way for them to work well so they don't look all muppety-lumps.

(https://www.forlornhopegames.co.uk/images/frontend/products/0075.jpg)
(https://www.forlornhopegames.co.uk/images/frontend/products/0052.jpg)
(https://www.forlornhopegames.co.uk/images/frontend/products/0071.jpg)
(https://www.forlornhopegames.co.uk/images/frontend/products/0068.jpg)
(https://www.forlornhopegames.co.uk/images/frontend/products/0034_a.jpg)


I think the Traveler sculpts need a bit more distinctive nick-nacks to mark them as what they are but they aren't awful.
Heh, I have three of those Future Wars minis and a lot more of the range.  They’re a lot better when you get a good paint job on them.
Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: crkrueger on August 02, 2021, 10:14:11 AM
I love Mark Copplestone's stuff.  I've got a huge collection of it all painted up and some day I'mma gonna play Kill Zone with 'em just like Nick Lund intended!

Yeah, a lot of those minis made it into our various Necromunda gangs.
Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: crkrueger on August 02, 2021, 11:10:50 AM
Ok, the important thing here is that they have a 3D printable Type S Scout!

(https://cdn2.myminifactory.com/assets/images/static-page/8846eafd-type-s-graphics-1.jpg)

As far as the minis go...
(https://cdn2.myminifactory.com/assets/images/static-page/9e77eeb8-figures.jpg)
(https://cdn2.myminifactory.com/assets/images/general/traveller/campaign/9.png)
(https://cdn2.myminifactory.com/assets/images/static-page/3bc35891-crew-stretch-goals.jpg)


I think we’re seeing a Hero Forge effect.  When you build a mini from pieces, stuff gets reused and then altered a bit and re-saved. 

Asha and Marshall obviously are quite similar.  From the waist down, they’re almost identical, with a minor difference in the crotch, with Asha possibly still having a package.  Even though Asha’s arms have been slimmed down, they also have the same hands.  Asha’s probably a grease monkey or ex-marine.  Are they making a transgender figure?  Nah, someone just resized some male parts to make a buff chick is all.

Nat with the hoodie, if you look at the pose of her firing the pistol, is clearly meant to be a female, although with the name Nat, they may be playing on the SNL Pat, who knows.  Yeah, she’s a tad thick.  She’s always wearing a jacket with hood on though, so she might be shaped like Kim Kardashian under there.  There is no mini of her sitting at the controls, so she’s probably some type of scientist/explorer.

Jade is the hot eye-candy chick, with skintight leather pants that leave little to the imagination.

But, even if Asha and Nat are meant to be some SJW plot, I don’t what Mongoose has to do with it.  2nd Dynasty partnered with FFE, and they also partnered with Papsikels on the character minis.  The chance of conspiracy diminishes as you add companies.  There’s three companies here...but none of them are Mongoose.

Now, granted, they didn’t use three hot chick minis all highlighting their assets, but is sculpting less supermodel women really SJW?

Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: palaeomerus on August 02, 2021, 11:23:02 AM
I kind of wish they had a grav carrier. (https://i.imgur.com/xOXsFIK.png) and that goony fighter. (https://i.imgur.com/yvWXbUq.png)
Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 02, 2021, 03:21:42 PM
Now, granted, they didn’t use three hot chick minis all highlighting their assets, but is sculpting less supermodel women really SJW?
Yes.  Next question.
Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: palaeomerus on August 02, 2021, 05:24:24 PM
I wasn't kidding about that vest, frilled helmet, and vest thing. That is what Traveller imprinted on me as looking at back in the day. Similar to the Draconis combine infantry in Battletech and Starwars '77 look for sci-fi.  And the porn-stache.
Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: Shawn Driscoll on August 02, 2021, 07:49:38 PM
Traveller has always had terrible minis. One reason I don't buy Traveller minis or use them in game sessions. Other RPGs have pretty decent minis. They even make people want to buy them and play those games. But Traveller minis don't grow the customer base. No one is excited to play Traveller, or buy the game, after seeing this dreck.
Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: Kyle Aaron on August 02, 2021, 08:02:39 PM
I'd buy them if they come prepainted. I like minis in my games, but I already have a hobby of roleplaying games, I don't need a second hobby of not painting miniatures.

Hero Forge will present them to you coloured up (painted? or just coloured 3d printed? I dunno), but while USD30 or so is fine just for making your own character, it's a bit much if you want like 50 of them as a GM.
Title: Re: SJWs Continue Their Creep into Traveller
Post by: crkrueger on August 03, 2021, 04:56:02 PM
I'd buy them if they come prepainted. I like minis in my games, but I already have a hobby of roleplaying games, I don't need a second hobby of not painting miniatures.

That’s an expensive damn hobby, especially when you factor in the paints you don’t use.   :D