TheRPGSite

From the birth of the hobby there were women, LGBT people and people of color playing D&D. But if you believed some recent blogs and articles (including one in The Mary Sue), the D&D hobby was the domain of evil White Supremacist Straight  Male Privileged Jocks until Current Year, when suddenly it became safe for women and LGBT people.

That's a complete lie, and here's  my breakdown of it.


[video=youtube_share;7nKpVSL2Rb4]https://youtu.be/7nKpVSL2Rb4[/youtube]

LOL.

As Opaopajr has pointed out before, every generation thinks they invented sex. This generation thinks they invented RPGs. Or at very least, they believe they invented Nazi-Free RPGing which never existed before.

Oh well. Fuck those fucking fuckheads.

Also, do you drink coffee before making your drip coffee so you have the patience to wait for the drip coffee?

I'd be chewing on the table.

Yeah, RPGs were so popular among the Jocks   o_O

What a joke.

I am non-white. I have been non-white all my life, I can't even choose to "identify" as a different ethnicity, since it's blatantly apparent to anyone looking at me. I started in this hobby in the early 1990s, and I was often the only non-white person in any group I played in (barring when my brother used to play).

You know what happened as a result of being the only non-white person in those groups? Nothing. No one gave a shit; it wasn't a thing, I wasn't "excluded" or "othered", I didn't feel "unsafe". I was just another person engaged in this niche and slightly odd hobby.

This is just more SJWs engaging in revisionist history, inventing discrimination and "oppression" in the past that didn't exist. Pretty dumb thing to do when there are lots of people who were actually around at the time and were sober enough to remember how it was.

Quote from: Kiero;1093056I am non-white. I have been non-white all my life, I can't even choose to "identify" as a different ethnicity, since it's blatantly apparent to anyone looking at me. I started in this hobby in the early 1990s, and I was often the only non-white person in any group I played in (barring when my brother used to play).

You know what happened as a result of being the only non-white person in those groups? Nothing. No one gave a shit; it wasn't a thing, I wasn't "excluded" or "othered", I didn't feel "unsafe". I was just another person engaged in this niche and slightly odd hobby.

This is just more SJWs engaging in revisionist history, inventing discrimination and "oppression" in the past that didn't exist. Pretty dumb thing to do when there are lots of people who were actually around at the time and were sober enough to remember how it was.

They think they have enough control to blatantly lie and have their lies be the official account. "Repeat a lie often enough..." etc.

Echoed from another social media post I made the day before this video was posted (and I posted in the video comments section):

Of course, my experience is only my own, but in playing RPGs for 35+ years - My first D&D DM was Trans. The vast majority of games I have been involved in (at conventions, game stores, and dozens of private groups) have had more women than men at the table...and I have played D&D with all races, genders, and sexual orientations. I have also been on various RPG forums and web groups since the infancy of the internet...

In all of that, I have never witnessed the kind of things that these websites/articles are pushing as a narrative. Quite the opposite, in fact. The tabletop community I have witnessed has always welcomed people that weren't mainstream and didn't confirm to societal norms.

It always seems to be a twenty-somethings that never experienced gaming in the 70s or 80s (at the start of the RPG hobby) telling us how much of a problem it has been going back to the first tabletop RPGs.

Call all of the above anecdotal, but It is no more anecdotal than The Marysue author's alleged experience with one single group of gamers at a game store when she was 17.

I just want to know when things changed from "we don't want to be part of your nerdy hobby" to "why are you excluding non-white, non-males"?

Quote from: FickleGM;1093071I just want to know when things changed from "we don't want to be part of your nerdy hobby" to "why are you excluding non-white, non-males"?

When making money streaming games on the Internet became a lucrative prospect.

Also, I'm not a "jock", but did play sports in high school and college. There were a group of us who played D&D with the nerds. Since I was pretty much a nerd in junior high, most of my friends were part of that group, although a lot of us also participated in sports, so I really don't understand the differentiation that well; seems like that's some Hollywood invention. At any rate, half of us were "minorities" (whatever that means), and no one gave a single fuck. There was a dude I'm pretty sure was gay, we gave him shit about it, he still played with us and we were friends with him. The Hispanic kids were fucked with about being lazy. Just pick whatever negative stereotypes you want, we hammered that home. I dunno, that's just sort of what you did as a kid, fuck with your friends by picking easy things to ridicule. The only people we didn't do that to is people we didn't care about or hang out with.

This whole thing is retarded.

Quote from: FickleGM;1093071I just want to know when things changed from "we don't want to be part of your nerdy hobby" to "why are you excluding non-white, non-males"?

2005? When did this latest bout of social justice nonsense get on the radar?

Yes, but were they affirmed? Represented in product? Have anyone they were uncomfortable with driven out with fire and sword? :)

Our first DM, and the person responsible for introducing our group to D&D in 1977, was a full-on jock: wrestling champion, later captain of the high school football team who went on to play football in college on a full scholarship.

Our group back then included both women (girls) and homosexuals (we later found out).

It's always amusing to have people who weren't there telling those of us who were how It Was.

Ridiculous.  I started RPGs in the early 80s, and what we got were the outcasts.  The "exotic" black kid (was a pretty white area), the gay kids, the nerds - if you wanted to play and could get along with the rest of us, you got to play.

Quote from: Kiero;1093056I am non-white. I have been non-white all my life, I can't even choose to "identify" as a different ethnicity, since it's blatantly apparent to anyone looking at me. I started in this hobby in the early 1990s, and I was often the only non-white person in any group I played in (barring when my brother used to play).

You know what happened as a result of being the only non-white person in those groups? Nothing. No one gave a shit; it wasn't a thing, I wasn't "excluded" or "othered", I didn't feel "unsafe". I was just another person engaged in this niche and slightly odd hobby.

This is just more SJWs engaging in revisionist history, inventing discrimination and "oppression" in the past that didn't exist. Pretty dumb thing to do when there are lots of people who were actually around at the time and were sober enough to remember how it was.

Give this person a beer!!!

Quote from: Thornhammer;1093079Ridiculous.  I started RPGs in the early 80s, and what we got were the outcasts.  The "exotic" black kid (was a pretty white area), the gay kids, the nerds - if you wanted to play and could get along with the rest of us, you got to play.

I take particular offense to some(!) women trying to sell me that there haven't been more women in gaming because we hadn't been inclusive enough. I remember very vividly how roleplayers and nerds ranked in girl's eyes in comparison to jocks. Evidence of all of that still lives on in past fiction (Riptide anyone?). Even Big Bang Theory repeats those cliches. So this is a revisionism of history that has no legs to stand on.

That said, I have a ton of respect for the girls who played back then - against the grain of the overall climate of coolness. That's an accomplishment that today's generation of woman gamers (who are, of course, welcome) simply can't attain anymore.

So, I have been ideologically Green throughout the 90s and I stopped doing so the day I realized the fundamental nature of leftism that applies here as well: lefties (including me back then) always need to play Robin Hood. Internally, I labeled it Robin Hood syndrome. They always need to play the fucking hero.

And to play Robin Hood, you need these three components:

• The Sheriff of Nottingham, the villain, the bad guy, the oppressor (and his rich friends)
• The widows and orphans, the poor and the oppressed
• Robin Hood (and his merryman) fighting to liberate the oppressed from the oppressor

And here's the thing: while there are some bad people in this world I suppose, lefties do not hesitate to make up Sheriffs of Nottingham and poor oppressed widows and orphans out of thin air. Because - how else can you feel lile a hero in this day and age, fighting for a noble cause, righting the wrongs of people who are supposedly intellectually and ethically inferior to you?

For 20 years I have now observed left-wing politicians, activists and voters with this in mind. Not even once has this fundamental realization failed me, except in the most moderate of cases.

And that's why the expression "If you're 20 and you're not left-wing, you have no heart; if you're 30/40/whenever and you're still left-wing you have no brain" is 100% valid. If you stay left-wing (except moderate socialdemocrats, they have an important function in politics), you lack introspection and critical self-analysis.

And all of this applies here. It's at the heart of their revisionism of history.

I was born heartless; I've never been left wing.

Nerds were the popular kids who deliberately excluded others, hence they took on the epithet 'nerds'. :D Delusional thinking... but wonderfully applicaple doublethink to hammer any marginalized group in the for future identity politics. :p Remember, "ally" just means "once this war is done, you're next!" :)

Did Pundit really just say he had trans characters before they were cool? LOL

When I was a teenager, we nerds were nerds. Didn't matter if they were black, white, latino, Indian or whatever. Nerd superseded all else. I think we were the most color blind people on Earth at the time.

I keep thinking as these threads pop up time and time again that we ended up with all this venom in our hobby precisely because we're such a welcoming kind of people, on the whole. I don't often agree with everything Pundit says, but this is one time I think he nails it right and squarely on the head.

Edit: Ironically, the only gay people I ever knew back then were far "too cool" to associate with our "Nerd Herd". So, no, they didn't play our games. They apparently had better things to do.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1093179Did Pundit really just say he had trans characters before they were cool? LOL

When I was a teenager, we nerds were nerds. Didn't matter if they were black, white, latino, Indian or whatever. Nerd superseded all else. I think we were the most color blind people on Earth at the time.

I keep thinking as these threads pop up time and time again that we ended up with all this venom in our hobby precisely because we're such a welcoming kind of people, on the whole. I don't often agree with everything Pundit says, but this is one time I think he nails it right and squarely on the head.

Edit: Ironically, the only gay people I ever knew back then were far "too cool" to associate with our "Nerd Herd". So, no, they didn't play our games. They apparently had better things to do.

And you just stumbled on the reason they are so intent on labeling the nerd identity as something toxic, evil:

QuoteWhen I was a teenager, we nerds were nerds. Didn't matter if they were black, white, latino, Indian or whatever. Nerd superseded all else. I think we were the most color blind people on Earth at the time.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1093179I think we were the most color blind people on Earth at the time.

Soldiers are the most color blind people in the world. Once you've been in the shit with someone, it doesn't fucking matter what kind of clay the other dude is made of, he's your brother.

Other than that, gamers did rank pretty high on that list, since most people who were gamers in the late 70s, early 80s, heck all the way to the early 2000s, were outcasts (with exceptions here and there of course).

Make no mistake, the same fuckers who hated your guts back then still hate your guts right now, except now you have purchasing power enough to turn heads and force them to deal with you as if they had been your friends all along.

Quote from: BronzeDragon;1093184Soldiers are the most color blind people in the world. Once you've been in the shit with someone, it doesn't fucking matter what kind of clay the other dude is made of, he's your brother.

Other than that, gamers did rank pretty high on that list, since most people who were gamers in the late 70s, early 80s, heck all the way to the early 2000s, were outcasts (with exceptions here and there of course).

Make no mistake, the same fuckers who hated your guts back then still hate your guts right now, except now you have purchasing power enough to turn heads and force them to deal with you as if they had been your friends all along.

I wasn't trying to be literal, but yeah. I'd buy that soldiers are highest on that list.

When it come to the same people still hating me, not only did I grow up and achieve a certain level of success that makes some people pay attention - I also, you know, grew up! In my 40's I couldn't possibly give any fewer fucks about who doesn't like me.

I have a rule regarding gaming with direct family members. I simply don't.

In my case, they wouldn't cooperate enough to let the GM do their job. And frankly, I found it an utter waste of time to try with them.

So gaming became my refuge. Away from them.

I don't like SJWs or any other extremists. They can keep their politics away from me and my gaming. My time of recreation is my own. And I frankly won't deal with them.

I will treat them like any other disruptive player. And show them the door.

I have no experience in playing rpgs with transsexuals or homosexuals. I have always played with friends that I know very well. I'm also a bit homophobic and would feel uncomfortable if a guy in a skirt or leather cap with studs wanted to join our gaming group, to be honest.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1093197I have no experience in playing rpgs with transsexuals or homosexuals. I have always played with friends that I know very well. I'm also a bit homophobic and would feel uncomfortable if a guy in a skirt or leather cap with studs wanted to join our gaming group, to be honest.

Honesty is a bit brutal sometimes.  Keep on gaming away.

Quote from: BronzeDragon;1093184Soldiers are the most color blind people in the world. Once you've been in the shit with someone, it doesn't fucking matter what kind of clay the other dude is made of, he's your brother.

Other than that, gamers did rank pretty high on that list, since most people who were gamers in the late 70s, early 80s, heck all the way to the early 2000s, were outcasts (with exceptions here and there of course).

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1093189I wasn't trying to be literal, but yeah. I'd buy that soldiers are highest on that list.

In my experience, a lot of military men were also gamers of one kind or another.

I can easily remember gaming with people who were non-white when I first began, but there weren't a lot of them. I can easily remember gaming with women when I first began, but there weren't a lot of them either (and they all seemed to be hooked on Dragonlance).

I can't easily say that I gamed with gays or trans when I first began because most of the time a person's sexual or gender preferences never came up between Players in gaming. We were all there to play tabletop RPGs, not compare whose genitals we preferred (Those conversations were usually reserved for The Rocky Horror Picture Show crowd).

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1093197I have no experience in playing rpgs with transsexuals or homosexuals. I have always played with friends that I know very well. I'm also a bit homophobic and would feel uncomfortable if a guy in a skirt or leather cap with studs wanted to join our gaming group, to be honest.

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/dc7afa08218d800ec8e8ac5057460309/tenor.gif?itemid=11286707)

I have never experienced any group in which we ever screened people based on gender or sexuality, or even screened any specific group of people at all aside from people whose playstyles did not mesh with our own which usually happened after weeks of play and discovering we did not mesh anyway (and it was generally a mutual separation); it was not due to skin color or sex even remotely, we did not even take those into account ever. It was simply who was willing to become engaged in the games we were playing. In my admittedly anecdotal experience, such a gatekeeping incident has never occurred or existed. Almost all of my groups have had women and gay people regularly participate in them including a best friend from my grade school days (as well, my brother is gay and he has been in my longest-run campaigns and is my most dedicated player by far), several groups have been female dominated in terms of pure population, we have also had several autistic people attend our campaigns. The most entertaining player I've ever had was Mexican; he was also a competent GM and even published his own roleplaying game after his friends and I helped him playtest it and supplied some art. In my opinion this entire theory and movement is bullshit.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1093189When it come to the same people still hating me, not only did I grow up and achieve a certain level of success that makes some people pay attention - I also, you know, grew up! In my 40's I couldn't possibly give any fewer fucks about who doesn't like me.

Paraphrasing Trotsky, of all people, you may not give any fucks about them, but they give some fucks about you.

Stay safe.

In my mind, I wasn't an outcast in high school and didn't see myself as a nerd. I was a headbanger / honor student. School was boring as shit, but my Dad traded top grades for my freedom. How could I be an outcast when I had my gaming crew and my metalheads! Did other kids consider me a weirdo? Fuck yeah, but I hung with nutters always brawling / moshing (and half of us joined SCA to fight in armor) so when I got jumped by jocks, that's just teen life's excuse for more fights.

Our gaming crew had lots of diversity. Some preferred Champions to AD&D. Others liked AD&D with only TSR products, whereas others used Arduin, Judges Guild and the kitchen sink. And I delved into the alternative lifestyle choice of using reverse trikes in Car Wars!

Did we have the Gay kid, the Black kid, the Filipino kid, the Japanese kid, and the half-Mexican kid? Yeah, but why give a fuck about that when we had something so much better? We had friendship.

The funny thing is I was an outcast in my first college year because UCLA was extremely class-ist and being "a have-not" fucking sucked hard. Even the gaming scene wasn't an escape from that attitude and I had to carve my own path (like everyone else!).

Which was fine because Sunset Strip was a bus ride to join LA headbangers at the clubs and if you helped opening acts carry their gear, they'd comp you for the show.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1093179Did Pundit really just say he had trans characters before they were cool? LOL

He did! RPGPundit wrote Arrows of Indra which incorporates trans-heroes because of the myths and history of India and there's one on the cover.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1093169Remember, "ally" just means "once this war is done, you're next!" :)

Sad, but true.

I can buy the argument that the rulenooks themselves (art and text) are more inclusive/diverse than the originals were. That is actually support as it makes it explicit that the game is open and not limited.  The story that the gaming groups were all white men are ridiculous. A lot of the original groups sprang from the war gaming community and the SF Con scene and those were definitely white and middle class, but not exclusively so (for Spinachcat - me and a bunch of the guy in our group also joined the SCA and we went from AD&D to Runequest to Champions).

The constant invention that the gaming groups were not inclusive ignores reality.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093239I can buy the argument that the rulenooks themselves (art and text) are more inclusive/diverse than the originals were. That is actually support as it makes it explicit that the game is open and not limited.  The story that the gaming groups were all white men are ridiculous. A lot of the original groups sprang from the war gaming community and the SF Con scene and those were definitely white and middle class, but not exclusively so (for Spinachcat - me and a bunch of the guy in our group also joined the SCA and we went from AD&D to Runequest to Champions).

The constant invention that the gaming groups were not inclusive ignores reality.

In a hobby where the "rules" are for being ignored and changed, where the first spell to change your sex as included in the 70's (if not mistaken), where you can play as a woman, man, hermaphrodite or anything you desire and is allowed by the GM. How exactly do the books limit you?

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093246In a hobby where the "rules" are for being ignored and changed, where the first spell to change your sex as included in the 70's (if not mistaken), where you can play as a woman, man, hermaphrodite or anything you desire and is allowed by the GM. How exactly do the books limit you?

You are both agreeing, but the subtle difference is another metatextual argument about the Implicit--Explicit spectrum.

To the Intersectionality-Mobile! :D (*looks at stunning modern art piece to rival Calder*)

It seems people of the past made assumptions that, as Gronan would say, "players are not booger eating morons and can shit unassisted," (possibly paraphrased, with dramatic license taken :p).

However with the passage of time, and the rise of CCGs, a new force for "clarity" came out to bring regulation to imagination. Eventually this led to the legalistic treatise of the 00s, and their subsequent hoisting upon their own petard... And now we have a dynamic tension between explicit and implicit, where the young feel they need permission. Whereas before experimenting was expected and rules were offered to give suggested definition. :)

Quote from: Opaopajr;1093249However with the passage of time, and the rise of CCGs, a new force for "clarity" came out to bring regulation to imagination. Eventually this led to the legalistic treatise of the 00s, and their subsequent hoisting upon their own petard... And now we have a dynamic tension between explicit and implicit, where the young feel they need permission. Whereas before experimenting was expected and rules were offered to give suggested definition. :)

I think that the rise of Organized Play has had some influence on the stratification of RAW in play.

Quote from: jeff37923;1093253I think that the rise of Organized Play has had some influence on the stratification of RAW in play.

The moron magnet of Org Play strikes again!!!

And I fully agree. Org Play is all about the RAW. I've seen enough "battles of the rule books" between GMs and players to last a lifetime.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1093249It seems people of the past made assumptions that, as Gronan would say, "players are not booger eating morons and can shit unassisted," (possibly paraphrased, with dramatic license taken :p).

However with the passage of time, and the rise of CCGs, a new force for "clarity" came out to bring regulation to imagination. Eventually this led to the legalistic treatise of the 00s, and their subsequent hoisting upon their own petard... And now we have a dynamic tension between explicit and implicit, where the young feel they need permission. Whereas before experimenting was expected and rules were offered to give suggested definition. :)

That assumption was abandoned by TSR with AD&D 1e, long before CCGs. A desire for "tournament play" may have been a factor, but organized play of today is different (in my experience, with AL at game stores, private groups, conventions, charity events and what have you).

Quote from: Opaopajr;1093249You are both agreeing, but the subtle difference is another metatextual argument about the Implicit--Explicit spectrum.

To the Intersectionality-Mobile! :D (*looks at stunning modern art piece to rival Calder*)

It seems people of the past made assumptions that, as Gronan would say, "players are not booger eating morons and can shit unassisted," (possibly paraphrased, with dramatic license taken :p).

However with the passage of time, and the rise of CCGs, a new force for "clarity" came out to bring regulation to imagination. Eventually this led to the legalistic treatise of the 00s, and their subsequent hoisting upon their own petard... And now we have a dynamic tension between explicit and implicit, where the young feel they need permission. Whereas before experimenting was expected and rules were offered to give suggested definition. :)

Well if it's true younger players can't shit unassisted I blame the GMs that taught them.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093239I can buy the argument that the rulenooks themselves (art and text) are more inclusive/diverse than the originals were. That is actually support as it makes it explicit that the game is open and not limited.  The story that the gaming groups were all white men are ridiculous. A lot of the original groups sprang from the war gaming community and the SF Con scene and those were definitely white and middle class, but not exclusively so (for Spinachcat - me and a bunch of the guy in our group also joined the SCA and we went from AD&D to Runequest to Champions).

The constant invention that the gaming groups were not inclusive ignores reality.

That's nice, but it's also utterly irrelevant. Especially when you consider in many groups no one but the GM would bother reading the whole thing. I don't need a picture (or a special story insert) of someone brown like me in a rulebook to tell me I'm "welcome" or "supported"; indeed for the most part I couldn't care less about the artwork in a book.

Again, the groups I played with back in the day were all white and middle class, and it didn't make the slightest bit of difference. In the place I lived and school I went to, it was predominantly white, and majority middle class.

Unlike passive entertainment like movies or books or video games, I don't have to identify with a character made by someone else; I make my own. Which makes all these arguments about "representation" entirely spurious.

Quote from: Shasarak;1093054Yeah, RPGs were so popular among the Jocks   o_O

What a joke.

Yes they were. Why wouldn't they be?

Quote from: Kiero;1093056This is just more SJWs engaging in revisionist history, inventing discrimination and "oppression" in the past that didn't exist. Pretty dumb thing to do when there are lots of people who were actually around at the time and were sober enough to remember how it was.

Its more than that. Its a pogrom to make people start seeing discrimination and to feel unsafe where they were not before. If you start acting weird then people are sure enough possibly going to start treading you as weird. Or more often practically brainwashing non-minorities into believing discrimination is EVERYWHERE and we have to be INCLUSIVE and collect em all! Untill is suits them to not do so.

Its allways so fascinating how utterly oppressive and UN-welcoming these SJWs are when you look past the smiling helpful mask.

Quote from: jeff37923;1093203In my experience, a lot of military men were also gamers of one kind or another.

Still are.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093246In a hobby where the "rules" are for being ignored and changed, where the first spell to change your sex as included in the 70's (if not mistaken), where you can play as a woman, man, hermaphrodite or anything you desire and is allowed by the GM. How exactly do the books limit you?

I am not surprised that you miss the fucking point and want to defend your little perceived corner of reality. First, the sex change magic item was a negative at the time. Second, rule books are where the rules are explicitly written down, including the rule that says that the DM and players have discretion. For someone new to the game, seeing art and rules that affirm and provide examples that all are welcome explicitly written helps and causes no harm.

It is not hard to see account after account of people both new to the game and who have been playing it for quite a long time day how much they appreciate the affirmation. My table has not only been open to all gamers but it has actually been decently diverse over the years I have played. I like that the rules reflect it.

You can cherry pick a spell or magic item and claims that the rules never said you could not, but the rules also did not
Say that not only could you but it is expected and part of the game if you want.

I think that has made a difference, and the difference is easy to see in the increased popularity of the game today.

Quote from: Omega;1093273Its more than that. Its a pogrom to make people start seeing discrimination and to feel unsafe where they were not before. If you start acting weird then people are sure enough possibly going to start treading you as weird. Or more often practically brainwashing non-minorities into believing discrimination is EVERYWHERE and we have to be INCLUSIVE and collect em all! Untill is suits them to not do so.

Its allways so fascinating how utterly oppressive and UN-welcoming these SJWs are when you look past the smiling helpful mask.

It's a bizarre kind of revisionism, because we're talking about events that weren't that long ago. Furthermore, the people engaged in that attempt to alter history don't have any power to make it so.

Do they believe everyone who was there is just going to let them change the account and no one will point out their lies?

I think I will just stop looking at my perfect bound full color books and go back to the 16 page folded and staples in the middle books where I can play "Fighting-Men" as my character. That would make everyone happy, no need to change, everything was perfect.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093281I think I will just stop looking at my perfect bound full color books and go back to the 16 page folded and staples in the middle books where I can play "Fighting-Men" as my character. That would make everyone happy, no need to change, everything was perfect.

Oh noes! Did they use the term "man at arms" in the text, too?

Quote from: Kiero;1093284Oh noes! Did they use the term "man at arms" in the text, too?

They say such things as "the reward will more than repay him" in the intro section to running a campaign. I mean, it was good enough for 1973/4 why things were first being written down, heaven help us that in 2019 we would change the him to "them" because the problem is that it is others mistaking the "him" for a specific instead of a general term which really means everyone. We'll just stick to the original rules as first written, as the problem is entirely the "woke morons" and the text is perfect.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093286They say such things as "the reward will more than repay him" in the intro section to running a campaign. I mean, it was good enough for 1973/4 why things were first being written down, heaven help us that in 2019 we would change the him to "them" because the problem is that it is others mistaking the "him" for a specific instead of a general term which really means everyone. We'll just stick to the original rules as first written, as the problem is entirely the "woke morons" and the text is perfect.

Hyperbole much? The point of the thread is that gaming groups have always been open and diverse. To claim otherwise is patently false (also known as a Lie).

However, since we're on the subject:

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093279seeing art and rules that affirm and provide examples that all are welcome explicitly written helps and causes no harm.

I wouldn't be so quick to draw this conclusion. Suicide rates are at their highest since World War 2, and up 33% since 1999. Among young men ages 15-19, those rates are up 21% from just 2016 & 2017. Among women ages 15-19, the number is up 8 percent for the same time period. Among the transgender "community", attempted suicide is at a whopping 42%, and 30% will actually succeed. I don't know the age groups for the latter category, but the data was from a 2018 study conducted at Harvard. Among the last group, the data becomes less clear and divided for the root cause. As one could expect, dealing with feelings of rejection from family and loved ones was relatively common. On the surface, someone who's quick to look for any supporting data might conclude that you are correct. However, there is some, though too little to be conclusive as yet - studies are ongoing, data that suggests that "being woke" and "reaffirming woke" (admittedly my word here as a shorthand for people who associate with far left-leaning, "socially aware" circles) tendencies leads to feelings of hopelessness and futility, which leads to and fuels depression. Untreated depression often leads to suicidal tendencies.

I won't belabor the point. The the data is there for anyone who actually is open to real science* on the subject to look into (which I leave as an exercise to the reader, but to start you off I'll leave you with a link to the CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db330.htm) - other sources may actually require you to pay for access) - so no need to take my word for it. The point, however, is that the available data at least hints at the possibility that the above quoted contributes to trends that are doing active, measurable, objective harm. If the data trends continue, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see published material publicly stating as much hitting the news feeds in the near future.

*As opposed to the so-called studies put for by academics in Humanities that appear to, for all intents and purposes, make up their data as they go. Yes, I have a very, very low opinion of people with Humanities backgrounds. Take that for what you will.

In all honesty, there have been attempts to exclude groups from the hobby. However, they tend to be fringe crusades by individuals or small groups, and usually get very little traction outside of the Internet, if there.
 
  Is anyone else here old enough to remember Drac on rec.games.frp.misc in 1994/5, who tried to convince people that Christianity and gaming were fundamentally opposed and any Christian gamer should apostasize?

  More recently, portions of the hobby have decided that 'not tolerating intolerance' extends to large swaths of the community, and one person has declared that forums have to realize that "they can't remain purely neutral even if they will not or can not become a partisan site or the vanguard of the revolution."

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093286They say such things as "the reward will more than repay him" in the intro section to running a campaign. I mean, it was good enough for 1973/4 why things were first being written down, heaven help us that in 2019 we would change the him to "them" because the problem is that it is others mistaking the "him" for a specific instead of a general term which really means everyone. We'll just stick to the original rules as first written, as the problem is entirely the "woke morons" and the text is perfect.

Which has been understood to be the standard usage to mean "him or her" for decades. And is much neater and simpler than "their".

So yes, let's stick to the standard usage, instead of making awful prose for the sake of some tiny minority of losers with such first-world problems, that the pronouns used in a rulebook offend them so.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093279I am not surprised that you miss the fucking point and want to defend your little perceived corner of reality. First, the sex change magic item was a negative at the time. Second, rule books are where the rules are explicitly written down, including the rule that says that the DM and players have discretion. For someone new to the game, seeing art and rules that affirm and provide examples that all are welcome explicitly written helps and causes no harm.

It is not hard to see account after account of people both new to the game and who have been playing it for quite a long time day how much they appreciate the affirmation. My table has not only been open to all gamers but it has actually been decently diverse over the years I have played. I like that the rules reflect it.

You can cherry pick a spell or magic item and claims that the rules never said you could not, but the rules also did not
Say that not only could you but it is expected and part of the game if you want.

I think that has made a difference, and the difference is easy to see in the increased popularity of the game today.

I'm not surprised YOU think I have no idea of what I'm talking about, I live in México, never did I hear anybody ask why the elves weren't more like them, or my very gay cousin why the dwarfs didn't like to take it up the ass. Or any of the women who played with us why it said El and not ella.

You can make claims about anecdotal evidence and from your thinking I guess we can say you play mostly with SJWs so of course they would say that.

Since the rules didn't say you could nobody did right? Must be why there never was a single self made module, adventure or house rules. Must be why no DM/GM ever invented new monsters or classes. Must be why nobody ever played as anything else than themselves.

So in my tables men played as men, women as women, gays as gays, and not a single one of us ever played as anything other than a mexican fuck doing mexican things like going to school.

Yes, the increased popularity must not have anything to do with the heavy marketing or the fact that the population grew a lot right? RIGHT? It must be because it's more in line with your cult.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093290I'm not surprised YOU think I have no idea of what I'm talking about, I live in México, never did I hear anybody ask why the elves weren't more like them, or my very gay cousin why the dwarfs didn't like to take it up the ass. Or any of the women who played with us why it said El and not ella.

You can make claims about anecdotal evidence and from your thinking I guess we can say you play mostly with SJWs so of course they would say that.

Since the rules didn't say you could nobody did right? Must be why there never was a single self made module, adventure or house rules. Must be why no DM/GM ever invented new monsters or classes. Must be why nobody ever played as anything else than themselves.

So in my tables men played as men, women as women, gays as gays, and not a single one of us ever played as anything other than a mexican fuck doing mexican things like going to school.

Yes, the increased popularity must not have anything to do with the heavy marketing or the fact that the population grew a lot right? RIGHT? It must be because it's more in line with your cult.

My cult? Again, clueless. You assuming I grew up in the USA and that English was the language around me? Maybe assuming my age?

You try and claim that marketing is different and a main reason, but ignore what is being marketed (there really was not much marketing $$$ spent for 5e, Hasbro had laid off all but a skeleton crew that heavily relied on outside contractors. Once it took off, then marketing $$$ showed up).

And, again you seem to confuse who is playing at your table with the rules. I already agreed that claims that the player base itself were racist/sexist or whatever other crap you want to toss in is bullshit. That is missing the point about the base rules being more implicitly diverse. Which can be only on purpose so you can continue to post alarmist threads that are as bad as the woke morons you seem to be afraid of.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093293My cult? Again, clueless. You assuming I grew up in the USA and that English was the language around me?

Actually, the "cult of Diversity" is very much an international one. No need to make such an assumption.

Edit: Or if that's too offensive for the very sensitive, say "diversity culture". Technically they mean very much the same thing.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093293My cult? Again, clueless. You assuming I grew up in the USA and that English was the language around me? Maybe assuming my age?

You try and claim that marketing is different and a main reason, but ignore what is being marketed (there really was not much marketing $$$ spent for 5e, Hasbro had laid off all but a skeleton crew that heavily relied on outside contractors. Once it took off, then marketing $$$ showed up).

And, again you seem to confuse who is playing at your table with the rules. I already agreed that claims that the player ASE itself were racist/sexist or whatever other crap you want to toss in is bullshit. That is missing the point about the base rules being more implicitly diverse. Which can be only on purpose so you can continue to post alarmist threads that are as bad as the woke morons you seem to be afraid of.

I made other points, wonder why you didn't address them?

Also Your cult has infected all the west, even here in México we get your zealots.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093295I made other points, wonder why you didn't address them?

Also Your cult has infected all the west, even here in México we get your zealots.

You still have not shown that there is any cult involved, especially in my opinions, so there is nothing to refute.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093293My cult? Again, clueless. You assuming I grew up in the USA and that English was the language around me? Maybe assuming my age?

The only thing I'm assuming is that you are an asshole based upon what you have been posting here. Don't really care about anything else because it doesn't mean jack shit at the game table and hasn't since the dawn of tabletop RPGs.

Quote from: Omega;1093272Yes they were. Why wouldn't they be?

The answer is in the name.

Quote from: Kiero;1093280It's a bizarre kind of revisionism, because we're talking about events that weren't that long ago. Furthermore, the people engaged in that attempt to alter history don't have any power to make it so.

Do they believe everyone who was there is just going to let them change the account and no one will point out their lies?

I firmly believe that some of these idiots picked up a history book once and leafed through the sections on the 50s-60s and cherry picked "racist! and sexist!" and fanatically believe that all of that still exists everywhere.

It is the new Inquisition/Pulling BADD. Once you start believing that devil cults are everywhere you start seeing devil cults everywhere and start making up systems to find and accuse ANYONE of being a devil cult. And failing all that, they simply hallucinate you doing devil cult stuff. Sarkisian pretty much codified the new inquisitiion cult manifesto.

And there are allways going to be these nuts out there and sooner or later one with a high CHA score is going to start convincing normal people that all these lies are truths. This recent batch of the insane just seems more virulent than in the relatively recent past.

And by far not just gaming. But since D&D came out its become a popular target. Then Arcades, then PC games, then Console games. Would not surprise me if Pinball games before that and and board games before that at some point didnt see some heat from some loony bin out there. Comics are the other one that gets hit often. Then on down the entertainment line.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1093287Suicide rates are at their highest since World War 2, and up 33% since 1999. Among young men ages 15-19, those rates are up 21% from just 2016 & 2017. Among women ages 15-19, the number is up 8 percent for the same time period. Among the transgender "community", attempted suicide is at a whopping 42%, and 30% will actually succeed. I don't know the age groups for the latter category, but the data was from a 2018 study conducted at Harvard. Among the last group, the data becomes less clear and divided for the root cause. As one could expect, dealing with feelings of rejection from family and loved ones was relatively common. On the surface, someone who's quick to look for any supporting data might conclude that you are correct. However, there is some, though too little to be conclusive as yet - studies are ongoing, data that suggests that "being woke" and "reaffirming woke" (admittedly my word here as a shorthand for people who associate with far left-leaning, "socially aware" circles) tendencies leads to feelings of hopelessness and futility, which leads to and fuels depression. Untreated depression often leads to suicidal tendencies.

A few points:

• Suicide rates appear to be increasing most rapidly in rural areas and among non-Hispanic whites, and to be more common among people with chronic pain or under severe socioeconomic stress. These don't seem correlated with being "woke" (or RPGs) to me.
• I'm quite willing to believe that transgender people have a high suicide rate because of how they are treated, by people close to them or by society at large.
• I do think that people should not be jerks to people who show up to play RPGs with them.
• I started playing D&D in the late 70s, and there were people playing who particularly treated women badly; DMs in particular had power in a game to be bullies, but other than that I don't think there was significantly worse or better treatment of women, minorities or whatever in RPGs than in other situations.
• In the absence of jerks, RPGs might help reduce suicide risk by connecting lonely people in a social situation.
• But I'm very, very doubtful that RPGs have more than a negligible effect on suicide rates, no matter how tables are conducted; people for whom their RPG play is that big a deal are likely to already have other more significant problems, and there just aren't that many people in the hobby anyway.
• Can you not promote any analog of the BADD/Satanic panic crap, even if you're just doing it to attack your political enemies? The RPG hobby doesn't need that.

Quote from: Kiero;1093269Unlike passive entertainment like movies or books or video games, I don't have to identify with a character made by someone else; I make my own. Which makes all these arguments about "representation" entirely spurious.

Quote from: Omega;1093340I firmly believe that some of these idiots picked up a history book once and leafed through the sections on the 50s-60s and cherry picked "racist! and sexist!" and fanatically believe that all of that still exists everywhere.

Both expressions of the same need to create a Sheriff of Nottingham, desiring to play Robin Hood.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093286We'll just stick to the original rules as first written, as the problem is entirely the "woke morons" and the text is perfect.

That's absolutely true.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1093287Suicide rates are at their highest since World War 2, and up 33% since 1999.

You ain't see nothing yet!

In the next decade, we'll see the rise of "suicide culture".

We've already seen the spread of insanity via social media (anorexia, woke nonsense, transgenderism) and rise of digital dependency will only increase dramatically with 5g.

Why 5g? Far more immersive online experiences = less need to "immerse" in real life.

In 2017, WebMD discussed how antidepressant usage increased 400% between 1999 and 2014
https://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20170815/us-antidepressant-use-jumps-65-percent-in-15-years#1

And 2014 was pre-Trump...

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1093346Both expressions of the same need to create a Sheriff of Nottingham, desiring to play Robin Hood.

Your theory is solid.

It corresponds well to the amount of Star Wars / Harry Potter references by SJWs regarding how they view their political "activism". I do love the #Resist stickers on SUVs, especially as 2 out of 3 also have Star Wars stickers inches away.

I joined a Discord server for a game a few days ago to ask some rules questions. I largely enjoyed it until today. I was part of a friendly and fun discussion about jerk players and it became focused on LGBTQ. A person posted about how they didn't enjoy gaming until the stopped playing with "conservative cishet males".

I usually roll my eyes at most but decided to commit server suicide and call them out for the broadstroke insinuation that all conservative cishet males are bad. It went as well as can be expected with a dogpile of all the buzzwords about privilege and such.

SJWs are not tolerant and a cancer on every group they attach themselves to, but we all know that.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1093346Both expressions of the same need to create a Sheriff of Nottingham, desiring to play Robin Hood.

Well yes you are painting us as the Sheriff. Who are you trying to save Robin? :D

(And actually I auditioned for the part of the Sheriff for a play. But ended up with the part of Prince John. :cool:)

But SJWs can't be liars because they don't welcome everyone, and then play the 'Paradox of Tolerance' card when called on their hypocrisy. And by forcing cis white het men to congregate in order to avoid abuse, they create an out group they can always use as an example.

It's rather cunning actually.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1093197I have no experience in playing rpgs with transsexuals or homosexuals.

How would you know?

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093281I think I will just stop looking at my perfect bound full color books and go back to the 16 page folded and staples in the middle books where I can play "Fighting-Men" as my character. That would make everyone happy, no need to change, everything was perfect.

You jest, but those staplebound books are rather better at facilitating _actual play_ than those hundred page full color tombs.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093279For someone new to the game, seeing art and rules that affirm and provide examples that all are welcome explicitly written helps and causes no harm.

On the contrary, evidence suggests that representation can be harmful even when 'respectful'. And who exactly is deciding what should be considered respectful anyway? For example, is Boondocks respectful? Is it accurate? Is it only a problem is a 'white' person writes it?

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093279I think that has made a difference, and the difference is easy to see in the increased popularity of the game today.

The popularity of D&D is almost entirely due to how it intersects with social media these days, and the brand has never been stronger.

Quote from: Omega;1093340Once you start believing that devil cults are everywhere you start seeing devil cults everywhere and start making up systems to find and accuse ANYONE of being a devil cult. And failing all that, they simply hallucinate you doing devil cult stuff.

Mass hysteria is a hellova drug.

Quote from: Omega;1093340Would not surprise me if Pinball games before that and and board games before that at some point didnt see some heat from some loony bin out there.

Funny you mention that (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinball#Pinball_and_gambling).

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1093415How would you know?

Because I've known them since I was 13 years old. 10 years old in one case. Besides, I have this little handy gadget:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3549[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1093415Funny you mention that (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinball#Pinball_and_gambling).

I knew about the gambling accusation. Im old enough to remember when Pinballs were in shops and bowling alley arcades long before video games. But wasnt sure if that counted as the sort of extremist witch hunting other games have had to face. And in some EU regions RPGs were banned as gambling as of 3 years ago according to a friend over there. Seemed to be localized to certain cities far as I could gather.

Then again. If I recall right, early on in the anti-pinball movement police were smashing them in some states when caught?

We really have not come very far in nearly 80 years have we?

You are all talking about being in groups that have accepted anyone in their group as equals. That's great.

What about those who don't have a group. They buy the books for themselves. I learned the game on my own as a 10 year old. I was a boy at the time... I identified with the badass fighter in then Mentzer Red Box.

What if I was a girl? I pick up that box. The only female character gets killed! When you have an actual group, you have people who actively work towards making people welcome. But there are tons of people (including me) who got into the game on their own.

Why is everyone so tight wadded about this? It is asinine. Everyone who wants to play D&D deserves to play D&D and they are all welcome. Make your game what you want it to be and leave everyone else alone.

No one is going to storm into your apartment and force you to be more inclusive. Play your anti-SJW games as you want... but D&D belongs to everyone... its not going to hurt your games.

Quote from: fixable;1093487You are all talking about being in groups that have accepted anyone in their group as equals. That's great.

Actually, it sounds like a huge mistake in retrospect!

Somewhere along the line, SJWs were mistakenly welcomed into the hobby and accepted as equals when its quite obvious now they should have been hurled out the door.

Our naive "inclusivity" has come back to bite us in the ass.
 

Quote from: fixable;1093487But there are tons of people (including me) who got into the game on their own.

You read the book on your own, but nobody actually gets into gaming until they play with a group as its a group activity. Just like reading the rules of poker isn't playing poker and poker isn't solitaire.

Quote from: fixable;1093487Everyone who wants to play D&D deserves to play D&D and they are all welcome.

That was always the case previously. Regardless of the modern revisionist history.

Quote from: Omega;1093482And in some EU regions RPGs were banned as gambling as of 3 years ago according to a friend over there. Seemed to be localized to certain cities far as I could gather.

Now that's something I'll have to look into.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1093415The popularity of D&D is almost entirely due to how it intersects with social media these days, and the brand has never been stronger.

Do you think, just maybe, that the changes to make the new rulebook more representative has something do to with this? I do.

There is a big difference between SJW imposing their views via twitter storms and a publisher making art and rule choices to show that a game is open to anyone.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1093491You read the book on your own, but nobody actually gets into gaming until they play with a group as its a group activity. Just like reading the rules of poker isn't playing poker and poker isn't solitaire.

This is an important point, reading the books isn't "playing RPGs", it's just reading. Until you have a group, you are not engaged in this hobby.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093505Do you think, just maybe, that the changes to make the new rulebook more representative has something do to with this? I do.

Maybe some, but I honestly doubt it contributes much. 5e was hugely popular immediately on release, and the books weren't notably woke-ified at that point. Unless you're counting the little inclusivity blurb at the front of the PHB, which was as I recall, fully approved of by almost everyone here.

Quote from: fixable;1093487You are all talking about being in groups that have accepted anyone in their group as equals. That's great.

What about those who don't have a group.

Then go find a group!

QuoteWhat if I was a girl? I pick up that box. The only female character gets killed!

Characters die sometimes. Sex doesn't include an immunity to death power. (That I know of.)

QuoteWhy is everyone so tight wadded about this? It is asinine. Everyone who wants to play D&D deserves to play D&D and they are all welcome. Make your game what you want it to be and leave everyone else alone.

No one is going to storm into your apartment and force you to be more inclusive. Play your anti-SJW games as you want... but D&D belongs to everyone... its not going to hurt your games.

Tight wadded about what? We're discussing how the gaming hobby has always been inclusive. We don't have to be forced by SJW nitwits who want to rewrite history.

Quote from: fixable;1093487What if I was a girl? I pick up that box. The only female character gets killed! When you have an actual group, you have people who actively work towards making people welcome. But there are tons of people (including me) who got into the game on their own.

Why is everyone so tight wadded about this

Because we're not sexist and racist. We don't look at a character in a book and immediately classify them by sex, gender, or race. We don't put everyone we meet into categories based on immutable qualities. That's the very definition of bigotry, of course.

We "identify" with the heroic nature of the character, and not with something that can only be seen through the lens of division.

That's why.

Quote from: fixable;1093487You are all talking about being in groups that have accepted anyone in their group as equals. That's great.

But somehow not enough to you.

QuoteWhat about those who don't have a group.

Wait, why is it my problem if someone doesn't have a group? Or are you claiming it's Racism!tm? So we as gamers aren't trully inclusive unless everybody has a group?

QuoteThey buy the books for themselves. I learned the game on my own as a 10 year old. I was a boy at the time... I identified with the badass fighter in then Mentzer Red Box.

So you played a solo adventure? Are you telling us you couldn't find anybody to play? Back then how many kids you think learned the exact same way? And even today, if you're lucky you learn in a group with an "experienced" GM the rest form their all novice groups and learn by themselves. Why is this a bad thing or our fault?

QuoteWhat if I was a girl? I pick up that box. The only female character gets killed!

So at age ten you were a badass fighter killing Dragons in real life?
Do you know many of us play as females? Why can't a girl play as a man?
Why should the sex of a character give them script shields?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rH-u9lUZCQ

QuoteWhen you have an actual group, you have people who actively work towards making people welcome. But there are tons of people (including me) who got into the game on their own.

Again so what? Go find a group.

QuoteWhy is everyone so tight wadded about this? It is asinine. Everyone who wants to play D&D deserves to play D&D and they are all welcome. Make your game what you want it to be and leave everyone else alone.

Exactly who are we trying to force to play as we say? How are we doing that? I demand evidence of this.

QuoteNo one is going to storm into your apartment and force you to be more inclusive. Play your anti-SJW games as you want... but D&D belongs to everyone... its not going to hurt your games.

Funny you mention this, we don't really play anti-sjw games (that would be boring) but SJWs do play anti-"fascist" games, and they define as fascist anybody to the right of Mao.

Edit: The proof is in the pudding as they say

Quote from: Gagarth;1093532Quick you do not want to miss this gem on Drivethru (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/260813/Comrades-A-Revolutionary-RPG?src=DotD&from_home=1) Tanin Wulf this is right up your street.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093528Edit: The proof is in the pudding as they say

I can't find the post you're quoting here, and I'm guessing your intention is to ridicule the whole idea of a revolutionary rpg with an implied WWI -era setting, but you know what, the Russian revolution (or fictional analogue), a chaotic hot mess of political intrigue, hair-splitting ideological hatreds, and gunplay, could be a brilliant setting for an rpg. Cyberpunk ethos with steam/dieselpunk trappings. I mean, god only knows if that specific product produces a good game, but the concept has real potential. You could really go all "Reilly Ace of Spies" with that.

Telling the other side you already do what they say you should, is perfectly acceptable to them.

Then the negotiation moves to whether or not you're correctly categorizing your efforts: past, present or future.

Quote from: Zirunel;1093543I can't find the post you're quoting here, and I'm guessing your intention is to ridicule the whole idea of a revolutionary rpg with an implied WWI -era setting, but you know what, the Russian revolution (or fictional analogue), a chaotic hot mess of political intrigue, hair-splitting ideological hatreds, and gunplay, could be a brilliant setting for an rpg. Cyberpunk ethos with steam/dieselpunk trappings. I mean, god only knows if that specific product produces a good game, but the concept has real potential. You could really go all "Reilly Ace of Spies" with that.

Nope, because it's not in this forum but in pundits.

Nope, not ridiculing a setting, proving my point that SJWs do write and "Play" games where they enact their fantasies of overthrowing capitalism and killing millions by famine, ethnic cleansing, etc.

Because that game is for people to do exactly that, keep pretending to be revolutionaries opposing the evil capitalism by roleplaying. It's not a "setting" go read the pitch in DT.

Now if that appeals to you, well comrade to each his own, more power to you go pretend being against capitalism by participating in capitalism and play that game while sitting at a starbucks using your iPhone/iPad to role the dice in an app while drinking soylatte.

Quote from: EOTB;1093548Telling the other side you already do what they say you should, is perfectly acceptable to them.

Then the negotiation moves to whether or not you're correctly categorizing your efforts: past, present or future.

And will be accused of just using "minorities" as a shield by having a (insert oppressed group here) friend to disguise your inherent bigotry as a member of the untersmench (White, Straight and even lower if you're male).

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093549Nope, because it's not in this forum but in pundits.

Well that explains that.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093549Nope, not ridiculing a setting, proving my point that SJWs do write and "Play" games where they enact their fantasies of overthrowing capitalism and killing millions by famine, ethnic cleansing, etc.

I have no idea who wrote the game you reference. Or more to the point, whether they are "SJWs." Nor do I know that this game promotes the "fantasies" you're talking about. Killing millions? Famine? Ethnic cleansing? Is that what the game is about? Sounds like we're talking Stalin, forced collectivization in the Ukraine in the 1930s. If so, then sure, I'm not interested. Any more than "Einsatzgruppe: the RPG." Hard pass if so. But do you know that that is what the game is actually about?

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093549Because that game is for people to do exactly that, keep pretending to be revolutionaries opposing the evil capitalism by roleplaying. It's not a "setting" go read the pitch in DT.

Yeah I looked at the pitch. It looks cyberpunk-ish, except the implied setting is eastern Europe in 1915.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093549Now if that appeals to you, well comrade to each his own, more power to you go pretend being against capitalism by participating in capitalism and play that game while sitting at a starbucks using your iPhone/iPad to role the dice in an app while drinking soylatte.

What exactly led you to believe I appreciate over-priced coffee in a paper cup, Apple products, or soymilk? I appreciate none of those things. Your powers of observation or clairvoyance or whatever may not be as keen as you think they are.

Quote from: Zirunel;1093564Well that explains that.

Good, one thing settled

Quote from: Zirunel;1093564I have no idea who wrote the game you reference. Or more to the point, whether they are "SJWs." Nor do I know that this game promotes the "fantasies" you're talking about. Killing millions? Famine? Ethnic cleansing? Is that what the game is about? Sounds like we're talking Stalin, forced collectivization in the Ukraine in the 1930s. If so, then sure, I'm not interested. Any more than "Einsatzgruppe: the RPG." Hard pass if so. But do you know that that is what the game is actually about?

And i quote from THEIR page:

{"Playing Comrades was a good reminder of what really matters.... If you too dream of a day when there are no more billionaires, then playing this game can help you keep your eyes on the prize." Gita Jackson, Kotaku}

Also: "Playing as characters like the Soldier, the Student, the Propagandist, and the Worker, your comrades will mount rallies, stage coups, evade the secret police, and fight fascist goons. A campaign of Comrades can take place in any setting the players dream up -modern or historical, real or imagined- giving them a chance to create a revolution all their own. "

Now what is the point of any socialist revolution? To overthrow capitalism, and in the process of doing this and later trying to achieve their utopia they ALWAYS end up with famine, purges, gulags and yes, ethnic cleansings (The Holomodor). So yes it's to fantasize exactly about that.

Quote from: Zirunel;1093564Yeah I looked at the pitch. It looks cyberpunk-ish, except the implied setting is eastern Europe in 1915.

The included setting you mean? Because, and I quote again: "A campaign of Comrades can take place in any setting the players dream up -modern or historical, real or imagined- giving them a chance to create a revolution all their own. "

Quote from: Zirunel;1093564What exactly led you to believe I appreciate over-priced coffee in a paper cup, Apple products, or soymilk? I appreciate none of those things. Your powers of observation or clairvoyance or whatever may not be as keen as you think they are.

You as in the general you not in the personal you. Don't be so quick to be offended.

Quote from: Zirunel;1093543but you know what, the Russian revolution (or fictional analogue), a chaotic hot mess of political intrigue, hair-splitting ideological hatreds, and gunplay, could be a brilliant setting for an rpg. Cyberpunk ethos with steam/dieselpunk trappings.

I'd play in that setting! It wouldn't need to be a Communist Revolution, because during bloody chaotic revolutions, it barely matters what Red vs. Blue even believe because that's secondary to all the intrigue. Also, love the idea of cyberpunk ethos in dieselpunk!

I'd like something akin to Stars Without Number as the system. Or maybe Savage Worlds.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093528Funny you mention this, we don't really play anti-sjw games (that would be boring) but SJWs do play anti-"fascist" games, and they define as fascist anybody to the right of Mao.

Edit: The proof is in the pudding as they say

Quote from: GagarthQuick you do not want to miss this gem on Drivethru (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/260813/Comrades-A-Revolutionary-RPG?src=DotD&from_home=1) Tanin Wulf this is right up your street.

I'm pretty sure that the number of people playing the Comrades (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/260813/Comrades-A-Revolutionary-RPG) RPG is no more than the number of people playing the "Hot Chicks (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/56643/HOT-CHICKS-The-Roleplaying-Game)" RPG, and considerably less than people playing the "Tales of Gor (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/210283/Tales-of-Gor-Gorean-Roleplaying)" RPG. Also, of course, there's the recent enthusiastic thread about creating SJWFinder the RPG -

https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40528-Since-PF-is-open-gaming-content-let-s-create-SJWfinder-the-RPG!!!

All of these are a tiny niche within a niche. Mostly SJWs play the same RPGs as anti-SJWs - D&D, Pathfinder, etc - with some mild variations (like OSR vs story games).

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093567{"Playing Comrades was a good reminder of what really matters.... If you too dream of a day when there are no more billionaires, then playing this game can help you keep your eyes on the prize." Gita Jackson, Kotaku}

LOL. The prize!!!

Oh, how dearly I would love to send these worthless fucks to a "socialist utopia" so they can experience their lovely prize!!

I lived, oh so briefly, behind the Iron Curtain in the early 80s and saw enough of "the prize" to last a lifetime.

But I also was a teen who got to see East German and Russian girls skinnydipping so it wasn't all bad. :)

Except their parents and grandparents were ALSO skinnydipping. That's probably a D6 SAN loss.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093567Now what is the point of any socialist revolution? To overthrow capitalism, and in the process of doing this and later trying to achieve their utopia they ALWAYS end up with famine, purges, gulags and yes, ethnic cleansings (The Holomodor).

Agreed, but I think the "revolution gone wrong" phase is a solid setting idea. I'd start the campaign with "You've won comrades! Now what?" and then ramp the crazy to 11.

If anything, playing in such a setting would make people NOT want a socialist revolution. It would be very much like Paranoia.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093567And i quote from THEIR page:
{"Playing Comrades was a good reminder of what really matters.... If you too dream of a day when there are no more billionaires, then playing this game can help you keep your eyes on the prize." Gita Jackson, Kotaku}

Well, it's a reviewer quote, not theirs, but they do cite it so they must place some value on it. I must say, I don't. Surely, even if you "dream of that day," then spending your time just playing a  game about it must distract you from the prize, not keep your eyes on it. If you want the prize then heave the game in the bin and go march in the streets or something.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093567Also: "Playing as characters like the Soldier, the Student, the Propagandist, and the Worker, your comrades will mount rallies, stage coups, evade the secret police, and fight fascist goons. A campaign of Comrades can take place in any setting the players dream up -modern or historical, real or imagined- giving them a chance to create a revolution all their own. "

As with any rpg, it invites you to tinker with the setting, although the class terms they use do evoke Europe 1915, not anything modern. "Fascist goons" is an odd thing to see though. Maybe in Italy, but otherwise you're not going to see fascist goons in 1915. That does kinda move you up into the 1920s or 1930s. Not sure what to make of that. Hm.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093567Now what is the point of any socialist revolution? To overthrow capitalism, and in the process of doing this and later trying to achieve their utopia they ALWAYS end up with famine, purges, gulags and yes, ethnic cleansings (The Holomodor). So yes it's to fantasize exactly about that.

and
That is not a left vs right thing. Right wing revolutions lead to the same thing. If truly ideological, then within a few years of victory, the proponents of  "perpetual revolution" butt heads with the proponents of "whoa, revolution's over, time to cash in." And the purges and detention camps begin. If not truly ideological, the purges and detention camps still seem to happen anyway. And what about pure fantasy? Everyone knows if you help the benign wood elf kingdom with its nasty orc problem and finally rid it of all external threats, it's not going to be utopia, you're just going to wind up with a nasty unrestrained wood elf kingdom problem. But rpg adventurers don't worry about how the good guys are eventually going to be the future bad guys. They pick their side, fight the immediate problem and somehow delude themselves they've done good. So too with revolutionaries.  Yeah the winners will become autocrats, but if you worry about what will happen 20 years later, you'd never adventure at all.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093567The included setting you mean? Because, and I quote again: "A campaign of Comrades can take place in any setting the players dream up -modern or historical, real or imagined- giving them a chance to create a revolution all their own. "

But the "complete setting" they created still appears to be 1915, not 2019. Whatever that means.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093567You as in the general you not in the personal you. Don't be so quick to be offended.

Well it sure sounded like the personal you, but okay, fine

Quote from: Spinachcat;1093569I'd play in that setting! It wouldn't need to be a Communist Revolution, because during bloody chaotic revolutions, it barely matters what Red vs. Blue even believe because that's secondary to all the intrigue. Also, love the idea of cyberpunk ethos in dieselpunk!

I'd like something akin to Stars Without Number as the system. Or maybe Savage Worlds.

I agree. In fact, if you went Reilly Ace of Spies you could play as anti-Bolsheviks if you like. It's all good . Times of flux and chaos just seem to be a naturally good fit for rpg settings, and the Russian revolution seems a particularly good one. I think it's a great idea. The excruciating and sometimes miniscule ideological differences could even be played for comedic effect.

Quote from: Zirunel;1093577Well, it's a reviewer quote, not theirs, but they do cite it so they must place some value on it. I must say, I don't. Surely, even if you "dream of that day," then spending your time just playing a  game about it must distract you from the prize, not keep your eyes on it. If you want the prize then heave the game in the bin and go march in the streets or something.

If you wrote a game and someone made a review saying it's about the ethno revolution and getting a huwhite ethnostate would you cite it in your selling page if you didn't agree with the ethos of the reviewer?

Quote from: Zirunel;1093577As with any rpg, it invites you to tinker with the setting, although the class terms they use do evoke Europe 1915, not anything modern. "Fascist goons" is an odd thing to see though. Maybe in Italy, but otherwise you're not going to see fascist goons in 1915. That does kinda move you up into the 1920s or 1930s. Not sure what to make of that. Hm.

Yes, they kinda try and hide it, but it's about present day and orange man bad.

Quote from: Zirunel;1093577and That is not a left vs right thing. Right wing revolutions lead to the same thing. If truly ideological, then within a few years of victory, the proponents of  "perpetual revolution" butt heads with the proponents of "whoa, revolution's over, time to cash in." And the purges and detention camps begin. If not truly ideological, the purges and detention camps still seem to happen anyway. And what about pure fantasy? Everyone knows if you help the benign wood elf kingdom with its nasty orc problem and finally rid it of all external threats, it's not going to be utopia, you're just going to wind up with a nasty unrestrained wood elf kingdom problem. But rpg adventurers don't worry about how the good guys are eventually going to be the future bad guys. They pick their side, fight the immediate problem and somehow delude themselves they've done good. So too with revolutionaries.  Yeah the winners will become autocrats, but if you worry about what will happen 20 years later, you'd never adventure at all.

I can't remember a single right wing revolution other than El Salvador. Yes, when Elfs and Orcs are proven to be ral and someone makes a game like this but about them we can talk about that.

Yes, most revolutions end up in that way, but not all, except the left wing ones, those ALWAYS end up in dictatorship and an elite living large while all the rest starve.

Quote from: Zirunel;1093577But the "complete setting" they created still appears to be 1915, not 2019. Whatever that means.

But you can fight fascist goons in 1915 . . .

Quote from: Zirunel;1093577Well it sure sounded like the personal you, but okay, fine

Well YOU sure read it like that, doesn't mean that was MY intention.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093580Yes, when Elfs and Orcs are proven to be ral and someone makes a game like this but about them we can talk about that.

They may not be real, but I seem to recall that someone made an rpg with elves and orcs once upon a time...

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093505Do you think, just maybe, that the changes to make the new rulebook more representative has something do to with this? I do.

There is a big difference between SJW imposing their views via twitter storms and a publisher making art and rule choices to show that a game is open to anyone.

Nothing to do with representation, but I think making the rules more accessible than 4e must have helped.

Quote from: EOTB;1093548Telling the other side you already do what they say you should, is perfectly acceptable to them.

Then the negotiation moves to whether or not you're correctly categorizing your efforts: past, present or future.

That is assuming the other side doesnt just ignore the fact you are doing as they want you to and just paint you the villain... BECAUSE! (Because with out a villain their little ;movement' loses momentum.)

PTL: "D&D is satanic because it has a devil in an illustration it!"
Sane people: "Actually that is a depiction of a paladin, slaying a devil..."
PTL: "D&D is satanic because it has a devil in an illustration it!"

I like how the evidence of "objectionable radical leftist" rpg content turned this topic from argument to how game-worthy such a setting premise would be. :) I like it even better when I read it on my Apple products. :p Keep up the gaming talk, guys!

This might get lost in the flurry, but I wanted to say that a game of Comrades will never end badly for the revolutionaries as a whole. SJWs live in a fantasy land in their real lives, constantly struggling against The Man and such.
They'll play Comrades and win and utopia will begin. Their inevitable loss in the real world won't happen in a make-believe one they control.

After that, they'll be invigorated to pick up their virtual torches once again, assured their game has shown them the way. It will again, fail. Then back to their safe space of righteous gaming to do it right this time. Back out. Fail. Roll dice. Out. Fail. And so on.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1093569I'd play in that setting! It wouldn't need to be a Communist Revolution, because during bloody chaotic revolutions, it barely matters what Red vs. Blue even believe because that's secondary to all the intrigue. Also, love the idea of cyberpunk ethos in dieselpunk!

I'd like something akin to Stars Without Number as the system. Or maybe Savage Worlds.

I recently got the Spire RPG and it's exactly this vibe. You play as drow revolutionaries oppressed by high elves in a massive tower-city. It's a really interesting setting and has cool mechanics. They're a little like AW and such insofar as the dice decide non-binary results, but there's no meta-currency I've seen.

The way you advance is to cause changes...good or bad...to Spire. Bigger changes net bigger rewards, most of which are really cool. There's one where you literally turn into an idea, be it a mantra or song or such, living in the heads of those who believe in your cause. There's even "drow Batman" where you pray to the small gods in your gear to help you do vigilante things.

The setting itself is awesome and evocative and despite the potential "abuse" of the topic by any political side (oppressed dark-skinned people) I haven't seen any overt and/or annoying political drivel.

I really enjoy how you have five "stats" to convey harm to you:

Blood: physical
Mind: mental/will
Silver: fiscal durability
Shadow: keeping your actions clandestine
Reputation: social currency/standing

When you get his with stress, it goes to one of the above, eventually giving a penalty known as "fallout". Blood fallout might be "bleeding", Silver might be "in debt", severe Shadow fallout might be "the Solar Guard kicked in your apartment door". It's pretty cool.

Those who like narrative games with a more trad vibe might enjoy it. The biggest draw is the setting, though. Drider midwives and hyena-priests are just awesome.

Quote from: Zirunel;1093578I agree. In fact, if you went Reilly Ace of Spies you could play as anti-Bolsheviks if you like. It's all good . Times of flux and chaos just seem to be a naturally good fit for rpg settings, and the Russian revolution seems a particularly good one. I think it's a great idea. The excruciating and sometimes miniscule ideological differences could even be played for comedic effect.

I'm wondering how tied to Marxist ideology the game really is in practice. Could it be used, for instance, for games set in Ireland between 1916-25, dealing with revolution and civil war? There were some socialists involved on the Irish side, of course, but they weren't the majority among nationalists. I get that the game would not be as wide open as most trad. games are, since PbtA games have 'playbooks' with limited 'moves,' and that you are going to end up playing revolutionaries, but I wonder if in practice the ideology of the revolutionaries is up for grabs, or essentially unimportant to game play.

Quote from: Fritzef;1093674I'm wondering how tied to Marxist ideology the game really is in practice. Could it be used, for instance, for games set in Ireland between 1916-25, dealing with revolution and civil war? There were some socialists involved on the Irish side, of course, but they weren't the majority among nationalists. I get that the game would not be as wide open as most trad. games are, since PbtA games have 'playbooks' with limited 'moves,' and that you are going to end up playing revolutionaries, but I wonder if in practice the ideology of the revolutionaries is up for grabs, or essentially unimportant to game play.

   Checking the DTRPG preview, it looks pretty firmly committed to the left-wing side in ideology. I'm not about to pay money for it to investigate how deeply that's woven into actual design. :)

I suspect that the commenters in this thread have devoted more keystrokes to Comrades than anyone except the author.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093505Do you think, just maybe, that the changes to make the new rulebook more representative has something do to with this?

No. On the contrary I think it's become actively harmful at this point and apparent that advocating for the oppressed and marginalized was never the goal in the first place. And the people pushing for this nonsense are not just lying about it but demanding to be paid for it.

So much for Communism.

Legend of the Five Rings would not benefit from including blacks and caucasians in the setting. Pursuing this goal to the exclusion of all others is why 7th Sea 2e failed despite all its awards and status as the most successful RPG #Kickstarter in history. And Tales of Gor outsells Harlem Unbound (which included the Italian ethnic slur 'dago' despite how woke it was) on #DriveThru.

Quote from: Zalman;1093522Because we're not sexist and racist. We don't look at a character in a book and immediately classify them by sex, gender, or race. We don't put everyone we meet into categories based on immutable qualities. That's the very definition of bigotry, of course.

We "identify" with the heroic nature of the character, and not with something that can only be seen through the lens of division.

That's why.

Well said.

I think this push to identify with superficial physical traits over shared beliefs and values is astoundingly poisonous. It's literally prison politics, and ironically both Nazis and SJWs advocate for it.

Quote from: Myrdin PotterDo you think, just maybe, that the changes to make the new rulebook more representative has something do to with this?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1093685No. On the contrary I think it's become actively harmful at this point and apparent that advocating for the oppressed and marginalized was never the goal in the first place. And the people pushing for this nonsense are not just lying about it but demanding to be paid for it.

So much for Communism.

Legend of the Five Rings would not benefit from including blacks and caucasians in the setting. Pursuing this goal to the exclusion of all others is why 7th Sea 2e failed despite all its awards and status as the most successful RPG #Kickstarter in history. And Tales of Gor outsells Harlem Unbound (which included the Italian ethnic slur 'dago' despite how woke it was) on #DriveThru.

I'm not sure what the specific subject is. Are you saying that the D&D 5th edition core books (PH+DMG+MM) are actively harmful because of their diversity? Or are you only talking about other books and/or RPGs? I'm not very familiar with new work in L5R or 7th Sea 2e, or Tales of Gor, so I'm not sure about our point of difference.

I didn't feel like the D&D 5e core books were harmful. It seems to me that they're working out quite positively.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1093685Pursuing this goal to the exclusion of all others is why 7th Sea 2e failed despite all its awards and status as the most successful RPG #Kickstarter in history.

Is that why it failed? I thought the biggest issue with 7S2e was the heavily narrative ruleset, not the setting drift.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1093627I like how the evidence of "objectionable radical leftist" rpg content turned this topic from argument to how game-worthy such a setting premise would be. :)

It's like how I love post-apocalyptic settings, but I'm really extremely aware of how horrifying it would be to actually live in such a setting.

Except for Rifts. That would probably be cool. :D

Quote from: Spinachcat;1093741It's like how I love post-apocalyptic settings, but I'm really extremely aware of how horrifying it would be to actually live in such a setting.

Except for Rifts. That would probably be cool. :D

I actually thunk a thought that everyone in Rifts is crazy because the world is so fucked up that living there would unhinge anyone.

Setting aside the actual crazies, and people willing to trade their humanity to become a chemical superman or a metal frankenstien, you have people pretending to be cowboys, putting skulls on their power armor and mechs, putting wolf or monster heads on their mechs, or make cyborgs that look like dragons. Why? This shit isn't practical.
Because one day you're a farmer, trying to eke out a living on the outskirts of what passes for civilization in this world, when one day a tentacled horror or a pack of vampires or a demented demon comes sauntering into your village and, if you're very lucky, kills and eats everyone. If you're unlucky, they take everyone to become slaves for labor or drain your blood or suck out your life essence to power their otherworldly magic.

Ghost haunt the ruins of dead cities, mad cyborgs lurk in hidden facilities performing experiments on people's brains, mad AIs lurk in hidden facilities (there's a trend there...) plotting to take over the world, vampires are a constant menace near old Mexico, monsters raid coastal towns for slaves.

Dressing up and talking like a cowboy cliche is probably a 1 on the 1-10 Rifts scale of bizzare.

Quote from: jhkim;1093692I'm not sure what the specific subject is. Are you saying that the D&D 5th edition core books (PH+DMG+MM) are actively harmful because of their diversity?

I'm saying that shallow representations included for woke cookies have a deleterious effect on the self-image of the minorities they're supposed to support, and only appeal to a very specific set of aggressively obnoxious left wing nutballs who demand constant validation from their entertainment products and lash out when they don't get it. These are the folks who went after Mark Diaz Truman (a latino designer) for how latino characters are represented in Cartel, and Mike Pondsmith (a black designer) over how black characters are represented in Cyberpunk. They do not care about intent, context, or enabling minorities to represent themselves, only that a thing is represented in a way they can interpret as offensive.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1093693Is that why it failed? I thought the biggest issue with 7S2e was the heavily narrative ruleset, not the setting drift.

For it to have been due to setting drift would have meant they got past the internal problems to continue publishing in the first place. The failure was not due to the game's lack of popularity, but in the company's mismanagement, and it's one of the best examples of * Get * Woke * Go * Broke I've seen to date. To me 7s2e is proof that it simply isn't possible to use existing cultures as inspiration and completely avoid offense, and trying to do so by paying [STRIKE]extortionists[/STRIKE] consultants will ruin you.

Related, the Filipino designer Tobie Abad who worked on Pirate Nations (silver ENnie for 'Best Supplement') (https://www.goodnewspilipinas.com/game-designer-tobie-abad-credited-7th-sea-ennie-wins/) had their successfully funded #Kickstarter unceremoniously cancelled after being accused of 'abuse' on #Facebook (https://www.gallantknightgames.com/gallant-knight-games-wunderwerks-statement-regarding-once-upon-a-time-in-jianghu/), and effectively shut down their #Patreon on June 2nd of this year (https://www.patreon.com/tagsessions). Sadly I think it unlikely we will ever see them back.

Again, these people do not give a fuck about minorities or even their own minority status should they happen to have such (and if not they often manufacture it) beyond how woke it makes them look. And this sort of unhealthy social environment is at least as responsible for the increase in anxiety and suicide we're seeing as deliberate bullying is.

I mean shitlords are a problem too, but at least you know where you stand with them.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1093760I'm saying that shallow representations included for woke cookies have a deleterious effect on the self-image of the minorities they're supposed to support, and only appeal to a very specific set of aggressively obnoxious left wing nutballs who demand constant validation from their entertainment products and lash out when they don't get it. These are the folks who went after Mark Diaz Truman (a latino designer) for how latino characters are represented in Cartel, and Mike Pondsmith (a black designer) over how black characters are represented in Cyberpunk. They do not care about intent, context, or enabling minorities to represent themselves, only that a thing is represented in a way they can interpret as offensive.



For it to have been due to setting drift would have meant they got past the internal problems to continue publishing in the first place. The failure was not due to the game's lack of popularity, but in the company's mismanagement, and it's one of the best examples of * Get * Woke * Go * Broke I've seen to date. To me 7s2e is proof that it simply isn't possible to use existing cultures as inspiration and completely avoid offense, and trying to do so by paying [STRIKE]extortionists[/STRIKE] consultants will ruin you.

Related, the Filipino designer Tobie Abad who worked on Pirate Nations (silver ENnie for 'Best Supplement') (https://www.goodnewspilipinas.com/game-designer-tobie-abad-credited-7th-sea-ennie-wins/) had their successfully funded #Kickstarter unceremoniously cancelled after being accused of 'abuse' on #Facebook (https://www.gallantknightgames.com/gallant-knight-games-wunderwerks-statement-regarding-once-upon-a-time-in-jianghu/), and effectively shut down their #Patreon on June 2nd of this year (https://www.patreon.com/tagsessions). Sadly I think it unlikely we will ever see them back.

Again, these people do not give a fuck about minorities or even their own minority status should they happen to have such (and if not they often manufacture it) beyond how woke it makes them look. And this sort of unhealthy social environment is at least as responsible for the increase in anxiety and suicide we're seeing as deliberate bullying is.

I mean shitlords are a problem too, but at least you know where you stand with them.

Damn, that is a shame. I would have backed this in a heartbeat if I had known about it. I wonder what the guy said that riled people up so much? Not that it matters, I can separate art and artist and really do not give a crap about people who take offence on behalf of others.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1093760I'm saying that shallow representations included for woke cookies have a deleterious effect on the self-image of the minorities they're supposed to support, and only appeal to a very specific set of aggressively obnoxious left wing nutballs who demand constant validation from their entertainment products and lash out when they don't get it. These are the folks who went after Mark Diaz Truman (a latino designer) for how latino characters are represented in Cartel, and Mike Pondsmith (a black designer) over how black characters are represented in Cyberpunk. They do not care about intent, context, or enabling minorities to represent themselves, only that a thing is represented in a way they can interpret as offensive.



For it to have been due to setting drift would have meant they got past the internal problems to continue publishing in the first place. The failure was not due to the game's lack of popularity, but in the company's mismanagement, and it's one of the best examples of * Get * Woke * Go * Broke I've seen to date. To me 7s2e is proof that it simply isn't possible to use existing cultures as inspiration and completely avoid offense, and trying to do so by paying [STRIKE]extortionists[/STRIKE] consultants will ruin you.

Related, the Filipino designer Tobie Abad who worked on Pirate Nations (silver ENnie for 'Best Supplement') (https://www.goodnewspilipinas.com/game-designer-tobie-abad-credited-7th-sea-ennie-wins/) had their successfully funded #Kickstarter unceremoniously cancelled after being accused of 'abuse' on #Facebook (https://www.gallantknightgames.com/gallant-knight-games-wunderwerks-statement-regarding-once-upon-a-time-in-jianghu/), and effectively shut down their #Patreon on June 2nd of this year (https://www.patreon.com/tagsessions). Sadly I think it unlikely we will ever see them back.

Again, these people do not give a fuck about minorities or even their own minority status should they happen to have such (and if not they often manufacture it) beyond how woke it makes them look. And this sort of unhealthy social environment is at least as responsible for the increase in anxiety and suicide we're seeing as deliberate bullying is.

I mean shitlords are a problem too, but at least you know where you stand with them.

OK, I'll have to take your word for it on 7S2e. I didn't read much more than the mechanics before I closed the pdf and haven't reopened it since. Even my friend that loves all things 7S felt that the new rules were shit, but I don't recall him saying much of anything about the changes to the fluff.

Quote from: jhkimI'm not sure what the specific subject is. Are you saying that the D&D 5th edition core books (PH+DMG+MM) are actively harmful because of their diversity?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1093760I'm saying that shallow representations included for woke cookies have a deleterious effect on the self-image of the minorities they're supposed to support, and only appeal to a very specific set of aggressively obnoxious left wing nutballs who demand constant validation from their entertainment products and lash out when they don't get it. These are the folks who went after Mark Diaz Truman (a latino designer) for how latino characters are represented in Cartel, and Mike Pondsmith (a black designer) over how black characters are represented in Cyberpunk. They do not care about intent, context, or enabling minorities to represent themselves, only that a thing is represented in a way they can interpret as offensive.

OK, but this dodges the question about what are shallow representations for woke cookies. Without mind-reading the creators, how can I tell what these are? Can you give some examples? Do you think the 5E core books examples of this?

From my point of view, there exist gamers with a variety of tastes. There exist conservative gamers, moderate gamers, liberal gamers, and plenty of other variations. Some gamers like very woke content - and it's fine to make games for them. It's also fine to make games for conservative gamers.

I'm on board for shutting down lying and irresponsible gossip-mongering in social media. But as far as bashing on published games for being woke, I'd want to know what games are considered cases of this.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1093760I'm saying that shallow representations included for woke cookies have a deleterious effect on the self-image of the minorities they're supposed to support, and only appeal to a very specific set of aggressively obnoxious left wing nutballs who demand constant validation from their entertainment products and lash out when they don't get it. These are the folks who went after Mark Diaz Truman (a latino designer) for how latino characters are represented in Cartel, and Mike Pondsmith (a black designer) over how black characters are represented in Cyberpunk. They do not care about intent, context, or enabling minorities to represent themselves, only that a thing is represented in a way they can interpret as offensive.



For it to have been due to setting drift would have meant they got past the internal problems to continue publishing in the first place. The failure was not due to the game's lack of popularity, but in the company's mismanagement, and it's one of the best examples of * Get * Woke * Go * Broke I've seen to date. To me 7s2e is proof that it simply isn't possible to use existing cultures as inspiration and completely avoid offense, and trying to do so by paying [STRIKE]extortionists[/STRIKE] consultants will ruin you.

Related, the Filipino designer Tobie Abad who worked on Pirate Nations (silver ENnie for 'Best Supplement') (https://www.goodnewspilipinas.com/game-designer-tobie-abad-credited-7th-sea-ennie-wins/) had their successfully funded #Kickstarter unceremoniously cancelled after being accused of 'abuse' on #Facebook (https://www.gallantknightgames.com/gallant-knight-games-wunderwerks-statement-regarding-once-upon-a-time-in-jianghu/), and effectively shut down their #Patreon on June 2nd of this year (https://www.patreon.com/tagsessions). Sadly I think it unlikely we will ever see them back.

Again, these people do not give a fuck about minorities or even their own minority status should they happen to have such (and if not they often manufacture it) beyond how woke it makes them look. And this sort of unhealthy social environment is at least as responsible for the increase in anxiety and suicide we're seeing as deliberate bullying is.

I mean shitlords are a problem too, but at least you know where you stand with them.

I am missing your point. The Filipino designer (Tony Abad) seems to have an issue with his local group, not because of his race. And I don't see why blacks need to accept the work of another black designer just because the designer is black. Designers get criticized all the time and there are lots of places and cultures a black designer could be from. There is no magical ability conferred on anyone to understand all people that share a common skin tone with them.

I see zero proof of "shallow representation" causing any harm, just a statement from you. I see plenty of people posting that the art direction in 5e was appreciated. Plenty of people bitching about different things, but I don't see where you are getting harm in that the art depicts women and men as different class examples.

Despite your claims of harm, there are plenty of people that comment that they like it and it makes them feel more attached to the game.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093846I am missing your point. The Filipino designer (Tony Abad) seems to have an issue with his local group, not because of his race. And I don't see why blacks need to accept the work of another black designer just because the designer is black. Designers get criticized all the time and there are lots of places and cultures a black designer could be from. There is no magical ability conferred on anyone to understand all people that share a common skin tone with them.

I see zero proof of "shallow representation" causing any harm, just a statement from you. I see plenty of people posting that the art direction in 5e was appreciated. Plenty of people bitching about different things, but I don't see where you are getting harm in that the art depicts women and men as different class examples.

Despite your claims of harm, there are plenty of people that comment that they like it and it makes them feel more attached to the game.

Wait, are you saying speech doesn't cause harm? Because it sure looks like that's what you're saying. Remember that art is also free speech.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1093627I like how the evidence of "objectionable radical leftist" rpg content turned this topic from argument to how game-worthy such a setting premise would be. :) I like it even better when I read it on my Apple products. :p Keep up the gaming talk, guys!

Pretty sure theres been a few tries before with this or that kingdom in various games. But nothing comes to mind right off the bat as a good example?

Quote from: jhkim;1093836OK, but this dodges the question about what are shallow representations for woke cookies. Without mind-reading the creators, how can I tell what these are? Can you give some examples? Do you think the 5E core books examples of this?

The 5e D&D books don't give shallow representations of human ethnic 'minorities', human ethnicities are barely discussed at all.  Sexual minorities well there is that one paragraph about playing a man trapped in a woman's body that took flak from the SJWs as well as the Edgelords.

I generally think the 5e PHB represents diversity about as tastefully & inoffensively as it possibly could. I'd like a few more white human male fighter type depictions, but there is a white human male as the barbarian illustration so that's something.

I think the diversity of 5e has very little if anything to do with the current popularity.  A bigger factor is probably that everything geek and nerd is currently in fashion.  I mean, one of the biggest tv shows in recent history is basically geek blackface and people fucking loved it.

As for 7th Sea 2e, I thought it did what Wick wanted it to do really well and never really dove too far into the diversity and inclusivity well.  The problem, IMO, was the Kickstarter.  For $60 I got:

• Every 7th Sea 1e book in pdf
• The 2e core book in pdf and in hard copy
• Every 2e book that's come out since in pdf

So basically after buying the core book I never had to spend another dime on the game line.  That's not a great way to keep your business going.

Quote from: rgalex;1093914I think the diversity of 5e has very little if anything to do with the current popularity.  A bigger factor is probably that everything geek and nerd is currently in fashion.

Yep. It's been swinging that way since home computers became ubiquitous, and certain famous nerds became billionaires.

Also, Stranger Things.

Quote from: jhkimOK, but this dodges the question about what are shallow representations for woke cookies. Without mind-reading the creators, how can I tell what these are? Can you give some examples? Do you think the 5E core books examples of this?

Quote from: S'mon;1093905The 5e D&D books don't give shallow representations of human ethnic 'minorities', human ethnicities are barely discussed at all.  Sexual minorities well there is that one paragraph about playing a man trapped in a woman's body that took flak from the SJWs as well as the Edgelords.

I generally think the 5e PHB represents diversity about as tastefully & inoffensively as it possibly could. I'd like a few more white human male fighter type depictions, but there is a white human male as the barbarian illustration so that's something.

I don't consider "tasteful and inoffensive" to be a positive for me personally -- but I understand it's a successful way to market. And I didn't have a problem with it, which was what they were going for.

Do you feel, like Anon Adderlan, like there harmful shallow representations for woke cookies in gaming? What would be your examples of such? My impression is that the stuff considered most offensive comes from authors who are true believers, not authors who are just throwing stuff in to appease. But that's just an impression, of course.

Quote from: jhkim;1094091I don't consider "tasteful and inoffensive" to be a positive for me personally -- but I understand it's a successful way to market. And I didn't have a problem with it, which was what they were going for.

Do you feel, like Anon Adderlan, like there harmful shallow representations for woke cookies in gaming? What would be your examples of such? My impression is that the stuff considered most offensive comes from authors who are true believers, not authors who are just throwing stuff in to appease. But that's just an impression, of course.

Harmful shallow representations for woke cookies ...I find a lot of Paizo LOOK HOW WOKE WE ARE stuff annoying, but it only harms their bottom line when I don't buy their product. I don't think it causes any moral/spiritual harm.

It's fair to say our tables, IRL, have probably always been accepting, especially when you consider how marginalized gamers were, at one time. I think it's also fair to say there wasn't much overt representation of diversity in the available materials until recent times. It's no bother to me if companies want to pitch their inclusivity.

Quote from: cranebump;1094110It's fair to say our tables, IRL, have probably always been accepting, especially when you consider how marginalized gamers were, at one time. I think it's also fair to say there wasn't much overt representation of diversity in the available materials until recent times. It's no bother to me if companies want to pitch their inclusivity.

Mekton II, circa 1987. Pretty diverse.

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It isn't that it is bad for a company to pitch its diversity. It is bad for a company to lie about how the hobby was an unwelcoming place for minorities beforehand in order to make themselves look better by virtue signalling - case in point D&D 5e's ham-fisted declaration of inclusivity and Mike Mearl's virtue signalling.

Quote from: jeff37923;1094130Mekton II, circa 1987. Pretty diverse.

Racist cover.  The white guy is standing in front of the minorities and the wimminz.

Quote from: kythri;1094131Racist cover.  The white guy is standing in front of the minorities and the wimminz.

Racist against mecha too, since the giant robot is in the background!

Quote from: kythri;1094131Racist cover.  The white guy is standing in front of the minorities and the wimminz.

Yeah, but it even covers the forgotten minority (i.e., those left-handed bastards!).

Quote from: cranebump;1094110It's fair to say our tables, IRL, have probably always been accepting, especially when you consider how marginalized gamers were, at one time. I think it's also fair to say there wasn't much overt representation of diversity in the available materials until recent times. It's no bother to me if companies want to pitch their inclusivity.

Uhhh... There wasnt? Really? You must not have played many RPGs at all then.

Greyhawk pretty much right out the gate. Or at least by the time of the boxed set. And As Jeff points out above. Mekton. Theres lots of examples. People just werent virtue signalling it.

Quote from: cranebump;1094110It's fair to say our tables, IRL, have probably always been accepting, especially when you consider how marginalized gamers were, at one time.

I think that posters in these forums who manifest so much racism and misogyny should not be overly congratulatory of how accepting tables of 40 years ago were. I don't think they were much better or worse than any other group of the day. But the traditional structure of RPGs supported significant bullying by any GM inclined to it, and you must have a naive view of human nature if you think the bullied and margninalized wouldn't turn around and bully and marginalize others if they got a chance.

QuoteI think it's also fair to say there wasn't much overt representation of diversity in the available materials until recent times. It's no bother to me if companies want to pitch their inclusivity.

Quote from: Omega;1094137Uhhh... There wasnt? Really? You must not have played many RPGs at all then.

Greyhawk pretty much right out the gate. Or at least by the time of the boxed set. And As Jeff points out above. Mekton. Theres lots of examples. People just werent virtue signalling it.

What, do you mean supplement 1 Greyhawk? The artwork in early D&D books was probably not good enough to guess the race of any human depicted, but they were pretty much all men (and the fighters were still fighting men). I'd have to pull out the 1e AD&D books but I don't expect they could be put forward as overt representations of diversity.

Quote from: rawma;1094159. But the traditional structure of RPGs supported significant bullying by any GM inclined to it, and you must have a naive view of human nature if you think the bullied and margninalized wouldn't turn around and bully and marginalize others if they got a chance.

What the hell have you been smoking.

Quote from: rawma;1094159I think that posters in these forums who manifest so much racism and misogyny

[video=youtube_share;YpddaZB9bcI]https://youtu.be/YpddaZB9bcI[/youtube]

QuoteBut the traditional structure of RPGs supported significant bullying by any GM inclined to it, and you must have a naive view of human nature if you think the bullied and margninalized wouldn't turn around and bully and marginalize others if they got a chance.

And interesting observation, considering the times.

Quote from: rawma;1094159But the traditional structure of RPGs supported significant bullying by any GM inclined to it

"If you're gaming with assholes, you're doing it wrong" was true 40 years ago and is still true today.

Quote from: rawma;1094159I think that posters in these forums who manifest so much racism and misogyny

Ahem...

[Citation needed]

Quote from: rawma;1094159should not be overly congratulatory of how accepting tables of 40 years ago were. I don't think they were much better or worse than any other group of the day. But the traditional structure of RPGs supported significant bullying by any GM inclined to it, and you must have a naive view of human nature if you think the bullied and margninalized wouldn't turn around and bully and marginalize others if they got a chance.

Gaming specific evidence that contradicts (in part) your claim:

http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html

https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths

Non-gaming specific evidence that contradicts your claim: I am struggling to find a reference to the study, but there was some scholarly work observing groups of socially marginalized individuals (biker gangs, I think) and how they handle acceptance and tolerance that found that as a group, having experienced the pain of being ostracize themselves, they were more psychologically generous to differences and supportive of their peers because they had a self-selecting and separate "qualification structure" from typical social hierarchies.

Here's a similar idea along different lines (in this case, gangs in general) https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/take-all-prisoners/200904/gangs-in-america-outcasts-ticket-success

The crux of the point being:
- Gaming has an open, self-selecting membership structure -- learning the rules of the game
- Gaming has a different quality/rules structure for evaluating an individual's worth -- playing/participating/knowing the game
- Human beings in general who have already experienced social rejection tend to be sympathetic/oversensitive to avoid evoking it in others

Quote from: rawma;1094159What, do you mean supplement 1 Greyhawk? The artwork in early D&D books was probably not good enough to guess the race of any human depicted, but they were pretty much all men (and the fighters were still fighting men). I'd have to pull out the 1e AD&D books but I don't expect they could be put forward as overt representations of diversity.

I happen to have the AD&D 1e books handy.

I am defining "diversity" as non-male or non-obviously-human-white, so depiction of fantasy races is considered "diverse".

Player's Handbook:
- Clearly "diverse" images: p18, p43, p122, p93, p108, p109
- Up to interpretation diversity (shadowed/armored/indistinct): p10, p12, p13, p14, p15, p23, p27, p42, p47, p56, p65, p71, p83, p90, p97, p101, p102, p120
- Non-player-character type images (monsters, inanimate objects): p57, p69, p92, p98, p107, p121
- Wholly "non-diverse" images: title plate, p11, p68, p81

So out of 33 total images:
- 18% are "diverse" by the definition above
- 55% are up for interpretation / leave room for the viewer to "see themselves"
- 18% are irrelevant to the question
- 9% are "non-diverse"

If you're specifically concerned with women, then p18, p43, and p122 are the only explicitly female representations. Consider that that is roughly the same count as unambiguously white and male depictions as well, with the vast majority of the illustrations being open to interpretation / seeing one's self.

Which would make sense, given that it is a game marketed towards imagining a character you care about and then his or her exploits.

While I'm here, I might as well quote a few lines from Gygax's preface:

Quote from: E. Gary GygaxAfter all, the game's major appeal is to those persons with unusually active imagination and superior, active intellect -- a very demanding audience indeed. Furthermore, a great majority of readers master their own dungeons and are necessarily creative -- the most critical audience of all! Authoring these works means that, in a way, I have set myself up as the final arbiter of fantasy role playing in the minds of the majority of D&D adventurers.

...

No individual can actually dictate the actual operations of a campaign, however, for that is the prerogative of the Dungeon Master, first and foremost, and to the players in the individual campaign thereafter. In like manner, players greatly influence the events of each particular campaign, and they must accept a large portion of blame if it is a poor game, and if the campaign is outstanding, they deserve high praise for helping to shape the game and playing well.

I read the whole preface a couple times, and not once do I see any masculine pronouns, though I suppose I could have missed it. For the entire preface, Gygax leaves it wide open for DMs and players and fans to be any combination of male or female. That actually strikes me as remarkable, especially for a copyright date of 1978. I suppose it could be accidental, but having just finished "Master of the Game", that seems unlikely to me.

In any event, intentional or not, I find no exclusionary assumptions and it seems to me like a pretty clear invitation for all comers to pick up the book and play.

Oh, and one more thing, rawma.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/CtEBHakEO0A/hqdefault.jpg)

Quote from: rawma;1094159I think that posters in these forums who manifest so much racism and misogyny should not be overly congratulatory of how accepting tables of 40 years ago were.

You've been on this forum for five years and you haven't noticed that members who "manifest so much racism and misogyny" as you claim get banned pretty quickly?

Quote from: rawma;1094159But the traditional structure of RPGs supported significant bullying by any GM inclined to it, and you must have a naive view of human nature if you think the bullied and margninalized wouldn't turn around and bully and marginalize others if they got a chance.

The concept of getting up and leaving the game table of a crap GM is foreign to you as well, huh? Are you talking about real people or professional victims here? "No gaming is better than bad gaming",  and all that.

Of course, if someone is weak willed or juvenile or just plain damaged goods, they can inflict the same behavior which they suffered under upon others. Or they can be adults and know that they shouldn't cause others the misery that they have suffered under. Right there is the primary problem with SJWs and their virtue signalling, these are people who never got the memo that if they didn't like how they were treated then they shouldn't treat others that way.

Quote from: jeff37923;1094174You've been on this forum for five years and you haven't noticed that members who "manifest so much racism and misogyny" as you claim get banned pretty quickly?

I'm pretty sure rawma's definition of "racism and misogyny" is pretty broad.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1094176I'm pretty sure rawma's definition of "racism and misogyny" is pretty broad.

I was going to say exactly the same thing. I'm guessing we can translate that bit of drivel as "I've been offended, therefore it's both racist and misogynist".

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1094172Oh, and one more thing, rawma.

You can post a thousand of these images and to SJW clowns, it's just more proof of your racism and misogyny.

However, its good to post these images for people who weren't there 40 years ago who might have working brain cells.

Quote from: rawma;1094159I think that posters in these forums who manifest so much racism and misogyny should not be overly congratulatory of how accepting tables of 40 years ago were. I don't think they were much better or worse than any other group of the day. But the traditional structure of RPGs supported significant bullying by any GM inclined to it, and you must have a naive view of human nature if you think the bullied and margninalized wouldn't turn around and bully and marginalize others if they got a chance.

Muh wacism! Muh muhsoggyknees! Muh patriarchy!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1094184You can post a thousand of these images and to SJW clowns, it's just more proof of your racism and misogyny.

However, its good to post these images for people who weren't there 40 years ago who might have working brain cells.

It's just so sad. It's like watching someone die of thirst because they're hallucinating that water is poison.

This hobby that more than many others has a built-in factor of come as you are and imagine better things being falsely smeared as somehow evilly exclusionary.

Dust the chip off your shoulder, let go of the cynical hot takes, and try having a good time with the elf game, instead.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1094186Muh wacism! Muh muhsoggyknees! Muh patriarchy!

Yet the same poster say absolutely nothing when RPG.net behaves ten times as worse because nothing can go against the narrative about us being misogynist, racism.

We were social outcasts in the hobby. Sure where some in the hobby turned away from being allowed to play because of their gender, sexual orientation or race. To the level that the current SJW narrative makes it out to be not by a long shot.

Quote from: rawma;1094159I think that posters in these forums who manifest so much racism and misogyny should not be overly congratulatory of how accepting tables of 40 years ago were. I don't think they were much better or worse than any other group of the day. But the traditional structure of RPGs supported significant bullying by any GM inclined to it, and you must have a naive view of human nature if you think the bullied and margninalized wouldn't turn around and bully and marginalize others if they got a chance.

What, do you mean supplement 1 Greyhawk? The artwork in early D&D books was probably not good enough to guess the race of any human depicted, but they were pretty much all men (and the fighters were still fighting men). I'd have to pull out the 1e AD&D books but I don't expect they could be put forward as overt representations of diversity.

1: Well its good to see you can still spout nonsense like the best of the SJW nuts. Try again please.

2: I figured one of you loons would pull the ol "But its not diverse... ENOUGH!" card. And you even doubled down and played the extra "No women!" card. horray!

Quote from: Omega;1094137Uhhh... There wasnt? Really? You must not have played many RPGs at all then.

Greyhawk pretty much right out the gate. Or at least by the time of the boxed set. And As Jeff points out above. Mekton. Theres lots of examples. People just werent virtue signalling it.

Well, near 40 years of playing, so I've seen and played quite a few. Pretty sure if we perused more than a few instances, we'd find there's a marked difference in representation over the years. Just looking at gender alone, quite a few old modules (and I've read many more than I've gotten to play through) are pretty male-centric. Doesn't surprise me--that was the perceived (and, I would argue, actual) clientele, correct or not. It doesn't take away anything from the argument that many of us feel we've been welcoming at our individual tables. It also doesn't take away from someone else's perception, formed via experience, that they may have been made to feel unwelcome, at some point. There's too many stories of female gamers being treated like shit to ignore. As for the Mekton piece, one example does not constitute blanket proof. I think one CAN say something like "Gaming was historically more inclusive than it is given credit for, and here are some examples of that." But it's pretty hard to make the case that, back in the day, this wasn't basically a white dude's hobby, or was perceived as such, anyway. I'll just add here that I've been running open RPG clubs in high schools for over a decade now, and the respondents are usually white males. This, in schools with majority-minority populations. I will say the number of girls was MUCH higher at my last stop, though. This doesn't prove anything, of course, but that's what I've actually seen among the younger cohort.

It's ok for white dudes to play DnD.

Quote from: S'mon;1094509It's ok for white dudes to play DnD.

No it's not.

It's OK to play Human

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1094186Muh muhsoggyknees!

LOL. I'm gonna use that. Too funny!

Quote from: cranebump;1094502Well, near 40 years of playing, so I've seen and played quite a few. Pretty sure if we perused more than a few instances, we'd find there's a marked difference in representation over the years. Just looking at gender alone, quite a few old modules (and I've read many more than I've gotten to play through) are pretty male-centric. Doesn't surprise me--that was the perceived (and, I would argue, actual) clientele, correct or not. It doesn't take away anything from the argument that many of us feel we've been welcoming at our individual tables. It also doesn't take away from someone else's perception, formed via experience, that they may have been made to feel unwelcome, at some point. There's too many stories of female gamers being treated like shit to ignore. As for the Mekton piece, one example does not constitute blanket proof. I think one CAN say something like "Gaming was historically more inclusive than it is given credit for, and here are some examples of that." But it's pretty hard to make the case that, back in the day, this wasn't basically a white dude's hobby, or was perceived as such, anyway. I'll just add here that I've been running open RPG clubs in high schools for over a decade now, and the respondents are usually white males. This, in schools with majority-minority populations. I will say the number of girls was MUCH higher at my last stop, though. This doesn't prove anything, of course, but that's what I've actually seen among the younger cohort.

Back in the day every female student I,  or any of the other gamers I knew,  encountered in High School had zero interest in science fiction or fantasy literature (even though nothing was gatekeeping them from buying  one of these books and reading them) and they generally regarded any male who did like this type of fiction as less than human and since players of RPGs are subset of SF/F fantasy readers they thought even less of us.  The female Physics teacher (an out Lesbian which in 80s  Northern Ireland was not exactly common),  that was supposed to be supervising  the club never actually  attended any of the club meetings she was supposed to be supervising (as it was 80's and the teachers were on work-to-rule industrial action to protest the fact that there was a Conservative government) refused any direct invitations to join a game. We would have been more than happy for females to join the club or at least treat us a fucking human.

Something  else to consider could it be that that outright hostility to white people  that poc communities foster and encourage is to blame  for someone from one of these communities not approaching an all white group and the fact that these communities also project the image that certain activities are white only  and if you take part them you are a traitor to your community?  Also if it was white gatekeeping that was stopping them from playing back in the day what was stopping from buying manuals and inviting their poc buddies to a game or do you think that only white people owned stores that carried the books back in the day and refused to sell them to poc customers or maybe not even let poc through the door?. The excuse of white gatekeeping is even more bullshit today since organisations, groups and after school clubs which exclude white people are encouraged and any protest by excluded whites gets them the label of NAZI.

Quote from: Gagarth;1094566Back in the day every female student I,  or any of the other gamers I knew,  encountered in High School had zero interest in science fiction or fantasy literature (even though nothing was gatekeeping them from buying  one of these books and reading them) and they generally regarded any male who did like this type of fiction as less than human and since players of RPGs are subset of SF/F fantasy readers they thought even less of us.  The female Physics teacher (an out Lesbian which in 80s  Northern Ireland was not exactly common),  that was supposed to be supervising  the club never actually  attended any of the club meetings she was supposed to be supervising (as it was 80's and the teachers were on work-to-rule industrial action to protest the fact that there was a Conservative government) refused any direct invitations to join a game. We would have been more than happy for females to join the club or at least treat us a fucking human.

Agreed and seconded except the part about the Lesibian teacher supervisor.

Most of us did not keep engage in any form of gatekeeping keeping any female gamers from the hobby. Nor any one else (gay, transgender or otherwise.) The first were either in the closet the second were called corssdressers and  made fun of unfortunately by pretty much everyone. Which Hollywood and the sJWs pretend never happened. Either way as Gargath says about female gamers their was almost zero interest in the hobby by female gamers way back in in the 1980s. They regarded male gamers with a mix of utter contempt only to be made fun of. Considered us nerds. geeks and losers because again unlike the revisionist narrative they considered male gamers a lesser life form. Only the sporty, handsome, popular jocks were fit to be their mates. The female gamers that did play were very few and far between and were mainly also social outcasts.

Since that does not fit into the SJW narrative and an unwelcome truth of the hobby back in the 1980s it does not exist.

Here is another thing we were contending with at the time.  We created a poster to advertise the club (which did not say White Males Only) and we were refused permission to post it anywhere on school grounds because the word Roleplaying was erotic and had sexual undertones.

Quote from: cranebump;1094502Well, near 40 years of playing, so I've seen and played quite a few. Pretty sure if we perused more than a few instances, we'd find there's a marked difference in representation over the years. Just looking at gender alone, quite a few old modules (and I've read many more than I've gotten to play through) are pretty male-centric..

Male-centric = the odd heaving bosom.  All women would be put off by a product with this sort of content. [ATTACH=CONFIG]3572[/ATTACH]

What also gets me with the SJW element in tje gamibg hobby is ecen if one advertises that a new gaming campsign is open to alk it is still not enough. The plsyers that attend all happen to be white, straight and male.

To the SJWs one is simply not trying hard enough to attract POC, gay or transgender gamers. Not trying hard enough are we supposed to force those gamers to attend and play. No way to win or satisfy the SJWs no matter how hard one tries.

Quote from: sureshot;1094574What also gets me with the SJW element in tje gamibg hobby is ecen if one advertises that a new gaming campsign is open to alk it is still not enough. The plsyers that attend all happen to be white, straight and male.

To the SJWs one is simply not trying hard enough to attract POC, gay or transgender gamers. Not trying hard enough are we supposed to force those gamers to attend and play. No way to win or satisfy the SJWs no matter how hard one tries.

These are the same breed who hospitalized a gay Asian man in the name of protecting gays and minorities. They are extreme poopy doo doo heads.

I can remember a single regular female gamer in my high school crowd, but that crowd was also the Rocky Horror Picture Show crowd, so we were all a bit - unusual. My first college gaming crowd had three regular female members, and my second college gaming crowd had 1 regular female member.

Like has been said before, tabletop RPGs were considered nerd territory until around the time that Vampire first came out - then all the goth chicks jumped in on the hobby.

Quote from: Gagarth;1094566Back in the day every female student I,  or any of the other gamers I knew,  encountered in High School had zero interest in science fiction or fantasy literature (even though nothing was gatekeeping them from buying  one of these books and reading them) and they generally regarded any male who did like this type of fiction as less than human and since players of RPGs are subset of SF/F fantasy readers they thought even less of us.  The female Physics teacher (an out Lesbian which in 80s  Northern Ireland was not exactly common),  that was supposed to be supervising  the club never actually  attended any of the club meetings she was supposed to be supervising (as it was 80's and the teachers were on work-to-rule industrial action to protest the fact that there was a Conservative government) refused any direct invitations to join a game. We would have been more than happy for females to join the club or at least treat us a fucking human.

Something  else to consider could it be that that outright hostility to white people  that poc communities foster and encourage is to blame  for someone from one of these communities not approaching an all white group and the fact that these communities also project the image that certain activities are white only  and if you take part them you are a traitor to your community?  Also if it was white gatekeeping that was stopping them from playing back in the day what was stopping from buying manuals and inviting their poc buddies to a game or do you think that only white people owned stores that carried the books back in the day and refused to sell them to poc customers or maybe not even let poc through the door?. The excuse of white gatekeeping is even more bullshit today since organisations, groups and after school clubs which exclude white people are encouraged and any protest by excluded whites gets them the label of NAZI.

Exactly, if you were a Geek you were ostracized, mocked & bullied by the mere fact of enjoying certain kinds of entertainment/games. Not a single girl/woman I knew back then was the exception, not even the girl that was better at math than everybody else. And when one of them talked to us she was bullied into ostracizing us too. Not many had the courage to tell them to fuck off until I was in my last year of high-school.

"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
Aleksander Solzhenitsyn

People have different interests, goals and capacities. That girl that was the best at math? She went and became a pediatrician, because she didn't enjoy working with numbers but with people. A disparity in end results (the number of geeks in hobby Z from group Y) doesn't prove discrimination, gate keeping, etc.

The people saying male geeks were actively gate keeping women from their hobbies forget (or lie about it) that the single most important drive human beings have is reproduction, nothing would please a male geek than to meet a girl with whom he can talk about his hobbies. Which is why when the hobby becomes mainstream (and therefore attracts more females since now it's cool) male geeks received them with open arms, only to discover that many were just posers, fake-geek-girls and ideologues.

The "rules density", "complex lore", "canon" complaints about this being used as gate-keeping come from people not really interested in the hobby but in using it as a social marker (look I'm cool too!). The same goes for the "interrogation" complaints, we're not interrogating you snowflake, we're trying to have a conversation with you about something WE do feel an amount of interest and passion and you clearly not (or you would be happy to pick the brain of those who know more than you).

But this will keep being ignored and swept under the rug to maintain the narrative: "Male Geek Bad (even worst if it's a White one).

Fuck off to tell lies about my hobbies, my fellow geeks and me somewhere people don't know what it was like back when our hobbies weren't cool you fucking hipsters.

Quote from: sureshot;1094574What also gets me with the SJW element in tje gamibg hobby is ecen if one advertises that a new gaming campsign is open to alk it is still not enough. The plsyers that attend all happen to be white, straight and male.

To the SJWs one is simply not trying hard enough to attract POC, gay or transgender gamers. Not trying hard enough are we supposed to force those gamers to attend and play. No way to win or satisfy the SJWs no matter how hard one tries.

Because for them what matters is the end result, nothing else matters and should be either limited or prohibited if it detracts from their desired end result. This includes even the freedom of choosing your hobby. You either have full parity or your hobby will be destroyed by the rules they will impose on everybody wanting to participate on it.

Which is why they HATE stuff like the OSR, it gives people the freedom to write/play what they want. And since it's decentralized they have not a single point of entry that would allow them to change it to suit their needs. Which of course would destroy it.

Good point about the OSR.

It must drive some of the more ideologically inclined SHWs insane that besides creating their own version of the OSR they can't really do much to stop the elements or the movement as a whole.

Do you guys have transgenders in your rpg groups? It seems the rpg industry is full of them these days and I got quite alot of shit from such people on the Swedish forum. Don't get me wrong, but has it become trendy to become a transgender rpg nerd these days? I have noticed that quite a few of them have risen through the ranks and now get to be a part of the production of new rpgs, as scenario writers and such. They have quickly become people of great influence. Much of it is because they are transgenders in my book. But I could be wrong, of course. I'm just an old bald bigot.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1094647Do you guys have transgenders in your rpg groups? It seems the rpg industry is full of them these days and I got quite alot of shit from such people on the Swedish forum. Don't get me wrong, but has it become trendy to become a transgender rpg nerd these days? I have noticed that quite a few of them have risen through the ranks and now get to be a part of the production of new rpgs, as scenario writers and such. They have quickly become people of great influence. Much of it is because they are transgenders in my book. But I could be wrong, of course. I'm just an old bald bigot.

I've never had one, no. But that actually isn't due to a matter of "policy" or anything. I've just never had it come up. Despite the fact that SJW's and the like irritate the fuck out of me and I'm pretty vocal about that fact here, I really don't think I'd care if someone wanted to play "against gender" at my table, so long as they didn't go out of their way to make the game about that. Any player that wanted to make the game about identity politics at every opportunity is going to be rapidly ejected from the game.

I'd might argue, for the sake of verisimilitude, that true "trans" people are impossible or extremely unlikely in any setting that hearkens back to any time prior to our modern one. So you'd be far more likely to encounter cross dressers than people who've been surgically modified. I could probably be convinced to allow a race that can choose their gender, however. Or in a high magic setting allow for some kind of ritual that does the job.

But ultimately that'd all be some kind of background fluff. What matter in play is that the party engage in actual adventure, that they be heroes (or anti-heroes, but seriously, yawn). Stick to that and anyone at my table won't have a problem finding themselves welcome.

Edit: Setting character aside, I've also not had any transgender players at my table. I agree, however, that from an outside perspective that the recent apparent "surge" in transgender people is more due to a certain trendiness in woke circles.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1094647Do you guys have transgenders in your rpg groups?

One person I gamed with in high school transitioned around ten years after graduation, but I had no idea at the time.

There was one transgender person in my group until recently (she moved overseas) and there's one person in the group who plays a transgender character, and who uses "they" when referring to ... themselves.

These things are only observations in retrospect though ... the gender orientation of the players at my table has never once come up, until now.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1094647Do you guys have transgenders in your rpg groups? It seems the rpg industry is full of them these days and I got quite alot of shit from such people on the Swedish forum. Don't get me wrong, but has it become trendy to become a transgender rpg nerd these days? I have noticed that quite a few of them have risen through the ranks and now get to be a part of the production of new rpgs, as scenario writers and such. They have quickly become people of great influence. Much of it is because they are transgenders in my book.

I've only once had a transgender player, in a Labyrinth Lord game.
The ones you see online are generally more interested in performative displays online than in actually playing RPGs IRL IMO. Who knows if they are even really trans IRL.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1094647Do you guys have transgenders in your rpg groups?

Not to assume someone's gender... but I believe two of the people that I've seen at local X-Wing miniatures events are transgender.
To my knowledge, none in my RPG groups.

I play a lot of science fiction games, so how do you declare if a character is transgender or gay or whatever when the alien race does not have a defined sexuality? In D&D, vegepygmies reproduce by characters being killed by russet mold. In Traveller, hivers exchange genetic material every time they great one another by "shaking hands" and embryonic larvae just fall off of them and are considered nuisances by hivers while they mature until they reach adolescence and can then start joining in to hiver society as sophonts. If the being is a machine intelligence, then just about anything goes as far as reproduction - so how can you tell?

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1094647Do you guys have transgenders in your rpg groups? It seems the rpg industry is full of them these days and I got quite alot of shit from such people on the Swedish forum. Don't get me wrong, but has it become trendy to become a transgender rpg nerd these days? I have noticed that quite a few of them have risen through the ranks and now get to be a part of the production of new rpgs, as scenario writers and such. They have quickly become people of great influence. Much of it is because they are transgenders in my book. But I could be wrong, of course. I'm just an old bald bigot.

Decades ago yes. Now-a-days... oddly have not met any in a long time. And the few I did RP with long ago eventually drifted off or just kinda... vanished? To my knowledge Ive never had any problems wit any TG folk.

As for the industry. It isnt just RPGs. Theres an increasing push in animation. The new She-Ra is a prime example. And SJWs seem to try and use it as a defense/excuse a-lot lately. A-lot.

I suspect some of the slowly growing bad rep TG folk are getting is stemming from these SJW types and how they act while claiming to be TG or whatever is the fad of the week.

Quote from: rawma;1094159posters in these forums who manifest so much racism and misogyny

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1094169[Citation needed]

Duh. (https://www.therpgsite.com/forumdisplay.php?4-The-RPGPundit-s-Own-Forum)

QuoteGaming specific evidence that contradicts (in part) your claim:

http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html

https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths

You should read Gary Fine's book Shared Fantasy. Of your two references, one seems to believe that no scene is ever bad until the mops show up, and in the other the Geek Social Fallacies seem exactly to support my observation - it's saying that ostracizers are not evil, and geeks who subscribe to fallacies (that ostracism is evil, or whatever) would hardly be expected to react ideally to negative social situations. (As I said, gaming groups were probably not significantly better or worse than other groups.)

Quotesocially marginalized individuals (biker gangs, I think)

"Biker gangs" are the first people anyone thinks of when they hear "people who have been bullied".

QuoteI am defining "diversity" as non-male or non-obviously-human-white, so depiction of fantasy races is considered "diverse".

Yes, those diverse halflings, dwarves and elves will certainly give a welcoming feeling to any potential gamer. Why, Supplement 1 Greyhawk must have been completely welcoming to Asians based on its depiction of a Japanese Ogre. Hey, why not declare every non-human monster in the Monster Manual evidence of diversity? :rolleyes:

QuoteWhile I'm here, I might as well quote a few lines from Gygax's preface:
...
I read the whole preface a couple times, and not once do I see any masculine pronouns,

The one time I saw Gary Gygax at a convention, I mentioned that I had read that and Role-Playing Mastery, and he gave me a joking apology. :) I was commenting on a reference to "Greyhawk pretty much right out of the gate", and the original Greyhawk supplement has a lot of the default "he".

Screenshot from the D&D cartoon? Goal posts moved to diversity in 80s television cartoons, strawman successfully defeated.

Quote from: jeff37923;1094174You've been on this forum for five years and you haven't noticed that members who "manifest so much racism and misogyny" as you claim get banned pretty quickly?

Can you name more than one? I'll give you the first one by adding this from a thread about 5 Stone Games (the race suicide guy) in which jhkim comments on that banning:

Quote from: jhkim;942174This regards the recent banning of 5 Stone Games, which as I understand it was for his expressing racist beliefs that South African blacks have lower IQ (among other things) - and also applies to the recent question over homophobia.

I would suggest that if people can be banned for this

jhkim had been here then for more than ten years and seemed genuinely surprised by that banning (and his memory seems a lot better than yours, Jeff37923). And 5 Stone Games posted for about two years before getting banned. And that was after someone else got called out by a moderator for being racist but with no further repercussions.

Quote from: jeff37923;1094174The concept of getting up and leaving the game table of a crap GM is foreign to you as well, huh?

Same dynamics as abusive intimate relationships, I guess, albeit with very much lower stakes. Wanna call every victim of domestic violence a professional victim?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1094176I'm pretty sure rawma's definition of "racism and misogyny" is pretty broad.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1094183I was going to say exactly the same thing. I'm guessing we can translate that bit of drivel as "I've been offended, therefore it's both racist and misogynist".

I'm not offended by anything I read on this site. I'm actually quite mainstream in my definitions.

I do think it's unfortunate that RPGPundit is pushing his politics outside of his eponymous forum; it's been to the detriment of actual gaming discussion.

Let's not forget 5 Stone Ages preached ASIAN genetic supremacy.

And I still disagree with his banning. So what if the guy had ideas many of us disagree with? You don't change anyone's mind by banning them.

Plus banning 5 Stone Ages will never "cleanse" the reputation of this site to the SJW clowns. We gained no "virtue" by his banning.

His banning represents only failure. Free speech means defending speech we don't agree with.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1094647Do you guys have transgenders in your rpg groups?

I've gamed with the most hated trans on RPG.net! Caoimhe Ora Snow, author of The Queen's Cavaliers RPG! Caoimhe got caught up in a social media "he said, she said" shitstorm and unfortunately, Caoimhe's health issues derailed the TQC kickstarter

Caoimhe (pronounced "Keeva") was a regular at LA game cons and FLGS game days. Caoimhe plays old school, new school and introduced me to 13th Age and played in my S&W games. Very good GM too.

Here's the Queen's Cavalier playtest rules. It's "clockpunk", aka pre-steampunk with rapiers.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/132863/The-Queens-Cavaliers-Playtest-Rules?manufacturers_id=3613

Quote from: rawma;1094758Duh. (https://www.therpgsite.com/forumdisplay.php?4-The-RPGPundit-s-Own-Forum)

I think you're going to have to get more specific than that.

QuoteI do think it's unfortunate that RPGPundit is pushing his politics outside of his eponymous forum; it's been to the detriment of actual gaming discussion.

I think it's unfortunate that we have SJW identity politics (https://latining.tumblr.com/post/141567276944/tabletop-gaming-has-a-white-male-terrorism-problem) seeping into the zeitgeist to the detriment of actual gaming discussion, but here we are.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1094764I think you're going to have to get more specific than that.



I think it's unfortunate that we have SJW identity politics (https://latining.tumblr.com/post/141567276944/tabletop-gaming-has-a-white-male-terrorism-problem) seeping into the zeitgeist to the detriment of actual gaming discussion, but here we are.

Regarding your link, I'll take shit that never happened for 100,000 Alex.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1094769Regarding your link, I'll take shit that never happened for 100,000 Alex.

Once again, you voiced something I was thinking but decided against saying lol. I'm in total agreement though. I read that link and thought, "now here's an exercise in creative writing from someone who's got a real chip on her shoulder".

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1094774Once again, you voiced something I was thinking but decided against saying lol. I'm in total agreement though. I read that link and thought, "now here's an exercise in creative writing from someone who's got a real chip on her shoulder".

I'm not in the habit of refraining my tongue.

Quote from: rawma;1094758fap fap fap

So once again I have to ask, if this place is so full of the most deplorable people in gaming on the internet then why in the fuck are you here?

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1094647Do you guys have transgenders in your rpg groups? It seems the rpg industry is full of them these days and I got quite alot of shit from such people on the Swedish forum. Don't get me wrong, but has it become trendy to become a transgender rpg nerd these days? I have noticed that quite a few of them have risen through the ranks and now get to be a part of the production of new rpgs, as scenario writers and such. They have quickly become people of great influence. Much of it is because they are transgenders in my book. But I could be wrong, of course. I'm just an old bald bigot.

The rpg hobby/industry does not have a high threshold for participation. You don't Have to put in 20 years waiting for a promotion before you get the chance to be a "big name". You can just make shit and write shit and if people think it's good, rock and roll. There's like one transgendered rpg writer in Sweden who has had a recent meteoric rise, but she puts in the work too, writing scenarios for various publishers, running scenarios at conventions, holding panels at conventions etc. You want to meet the movers and shakers of the rpg hobby in Sweden? Go to GothCon, they'll pretty much all be there. Network a bit, show off your stuff, and if it is any good, something could happen really fast.

Quote from: jeff37923;1094784So once again I have to ask, if this place is so full of the most deplorable people in gaming on the internet then why in the fuck are you here?

Don't you know it is so they can fulfill the monthly SJW purity test. As well as showing to the same SJWs how much of a so very brave courageous martyr they are for coming here. After they are forced to come here right. By what force or person no one knows. I just don't get coming back over and over to place one hates so much.

As for transgender people and gaming. I think they are still a minority. A very vocal one yet going by my games. I have had a few female and gay gamers. ( some at first in then out of the closet so to speak. No transgender ever since I began in the mid 1980s in the hobby. Granted so may have transitioned between now and then I do not know about it.

As common as some in the hobby with the current narrative of it being a large amount I don't think so though could be wrong on that account.

Quote from: jeff37923;1094784So once again I have to ask, if this place is so full of the most deplorable people in gaming on the internet then why in the fuck are you here?

Don't you know it is so they can fulfill the monthly SJW purity test. As well as showing to the same SJWs how much of a so very brave courageous martyr they are for coming here. After they are forced to come here right. By what force or person no one knows. I just don't get coming back over and over to place one hates so much.

As for transgender people and gaming. I think they are still a minority. A very vocal one yet going by my games. I have had a few female and gay gamers. ( some at first in then out of the closet so to speak. No transgender ever since I began in the mid 1980s in the hobby. Granted so may have transitioned between now and then I do not know about it.

As common as some in the hobby with the current narrative of it being a large amount I don't think so though could be wrong on that account.

Quote from: jeff37923;1094784So once again I have to ask, if this place is so full of the most deplorable people in gaming on the internet then why in the fuck are you here?

Because we're THE free speech game forum. As other forums purge their deplorables, where else shall the white knights come to do glorious battle for the revolution?

And rawma is 1000% welcome as a member and poster. We don't need to agree on anything, except the right to express our disagreement.

I welcome all the SJWs to post more. I have no interest in theRPGsite becoming an echo chamber.

Because I love chew toys.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1094761Let's not forget 5 Stone Ages preached ASIAN genetic supremacy.

And I still disagree with his banning. So what if the guy had ideas many of us disagree with? You don't change anyone's mind by banning them.

Plus banning 5 Stone Ages will never "cleanse" the reputation of this site to the SJW clowns. We gained no "virtue" by his banning.

His banning represents only failure. Free speech means defending speech we don't agree with.

So I take it you agree that jeff37923 was wrong, if not dishonest? The site does not quickly ban racists.

At this point, I think any banning for racism would be because RPGPundit thinks it's posted to make his site look bad, whether it's an honestly held opinion or not. And he's probably right to do so.

Quote from: jeff37923;1094784So once again I have to ask, if this place is so full of the most deplorable people in gaming on the internet then why in the fuck are you here?

What, no defense of your erroneous assertions about theRPGsite's response to racists?

I started lurking at the end of the 5e D&D playtest and posting after the PHB was released but before the other core books (when some posters here had seen early copies). This site is capable of good discussion of gaming (even jeff37923) when it's not obsessing over that other RPG website or stupid political crap (you do realize that the fate or survival of the RPG hobby, no matter how dire, says nothing about the fate or survival of civilization?). One of the moderators (before they all quit) expressed disappointment that posters did not step up to dispute false information posted, and I am happy to contribute in my small way to the campaign to avoid being an echo chamber.

But if you don't like my posts, you can take another 36 hour vacation. Free speech for the win no matter what you decide.

Prepared my previous response before I saw this.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1094814And rawma is 1000% welcome as a member and poster. We don't need to agree on anything, except the right to express our disagreement.

This probably means I can expect to be banned by my fifth anniversary here, if only because Spinachcat is so often wrong. :D

Quote from: rawma;1094821So I take it you agree that jeff37923 was wrong, if not dishonest? The site does not quickly ban racists.

How long was it between 5 Stone Games talking about race IQ theory and his banning?

I honestly don't know. If it was months or years, then he was not banned quickly and Jeff would be wrong. And as punishment, we should cook and eat Jeff while dancing to Abba.

However, I disagree with banning ANYONE for their views. Posters who actually disrupt the site are the only ones who should be banned. And someone's views (regardless how "wrong") don't disrupt the site.

Quote from: rawma;1094821At this point, I think any banning for racism would be because RPGPundit thinks it's posted to make his site look bad, whether it's an honestly held opinion or not. And he's probably right to do so.

Look bad to who? People who don't support free speech? Fuck those clowns with a cactus.

This kind of banning is a point where RPGPundit and I disagree, but he's paying for this site so it's his rules, but I believe banning anyone for speech is utterly wrong for a free speech site.

To me, free speech demands we must defend the right to the worst speech to be expressed freely.

It's no fun to defend the free speech of people we disagree with, but that's how we all get to speak freely.

Quote from: rawma;1094824This probably means I can expect to be banned by my fifth anniversary here, if only because Spinachcat is so often wrong. :D

LOL. That's so cute!

You live in a bizarro world of delusion, how would you possibly even know right from wrong?

The very concepts of right and wrong are anathema to your SJW Kool-Aid brigade.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1094827You live in a bizarro world of delusion, how would you possibly even know right from wrong?

The very concepts of right and wrong are anathema to your SJW Kool-Aid brigade.

Wrong again.

I love it when my chew toys squeak!!!

Quote from: S'mon;1094509It's ok for white dudes to play DnD.

Never said it wasn't. Just asserted that, welcoming or not, decades ago, it seemed a white guy's hobby. It's also okay for others to play, as well. However, I do think it's hard to assert "well, everyone was always welcome" without ignoring the demographics. The presence of change there, diversity-wise, implies a more, um, monolithic population at one time. In the big scheme of things, social progress in gaming is small potatoes. I think, though, we can agree that, whether it was white guys mainly or not, if you were a gamer decades ago, and you tried to explain what it was, non-gaming folks thought you were a bit strange. Today? Not so much. Or rather, as much? That seems to me what this is all about. Gamers were seen as weird folk. Now, weirdness is okay. Hell, is there such a thing as weird these days?

Quote from: rawma;1094821So I take it you agree that jeff37923 was wrong, if not dishonest? The site does not quickly ban racists.

Your question assumes that there are (or were) racists on the site. It's a "have you stopped beating your wife" trap. Perhaps if you gave examples of these not-quickly-banned racist posts?

To answer your original question, Fearsome Pirate was banned immediately after posting an image with a swatstika, even though it was done in jest. Biscuit-brain was banned shortly after using the N-word, but he wasn't using it in a racist manner, and wasn't banned for that reason.

In 2016 and 2017 there were a few posters who claimed the site was a haven for racists and sexists. I would challenge each one to provide evidence, and they all failed. They probably heard it on TBP and assumed must be true; the NPCs never question The Narrative.  But you're a regular here, so you don't suffer from that delusion.

Quote from: cranebump;1094832Never said it wasn't. Just asserted that, welcoming or not, decades ago, it seemed a white guy's hobby. It's also okay for others to play, as well. However, I do think it's hard to assert "well, everyone was always welcome" without ignoring the demographics. The presence of change there, diversity-wise, implies a more, um, monolithic population at one time. In the big scheme of things, social progress in gaming is small potatoes. I think, though, we can agree that, whether it was white guys mainly or not, if you were a gamer decades ago, and you tried to explain what it was, non-gaming folks thought you were a bit strange. Today? Not so much. Or rather, as much? That seems to me what this is all about. Gamers were seen as weird folk. Now, weirdness is okay. Hell, is there such a thing as weird these days?

The thing that annoys me with people that claim that Roleplaying is some kind of white mans hobby is the underlying assumption that it is all rose petals and rainbows just because you are a white male.  I dont know if they are deliberately being ignorant or honestly just need to get a clue.

Quote from: cranebump;1094832f you were a gamer decades ago, and you tried to explain what it was, non-gaming folks thought you were a bit strange.

I never had a problem explaining RPGs to others of my age. Parents of friends? Yeah, they were mostly clueless.

Most kids were curious about WTF we were doing. Dice? Books? Figs? Maps? The big problem was the idea of giant fucking books of rules. THAT was the scary nerdzone, but when somebody said "Can I play without reading the books?", I learned to say "Hell yeah! Come and play!"

I blame the US education system for making reading books and math scary to people. It's bizarre.

In college, getting non-gamer girls into LARPs was stupid easy. It's a dress up party with a mystery and here's your character! Go! Oh, and its totally cool to have sex with the other LARPers...

It's why I still boil down RPGing to this:
1) The GM describes the current situation happening in the game.
2) You tell the GM what your character wants to do.
3) The GM tells you to roll some weird dice.
4) You roll the weird dice.
5) The GM describes what happens.
6) Go to 1.

Quote from: cranebump;1094832I do think it's hard to assert "well, everyone was always welcome" without ignoring the demographics.

I guess ignoring "demographics", which apparently equates to "skin color", is easier for some than others. And for some reason it's always white people that are singled out. Every time. Nobody pontificates about having to ignore basketball's "demographics", but gaming is badwhitefun.

Quote from: cranebump;1094832Never said it wasn't. Just asserted that, welcoming or not, decades ago, it seemed a white guy's hobby. It's also okay for others to play, as well. However, I do think it's hard to assert "well, everyone was always welcome" without ignoring the demographics. The presence of change there, diversity-wise, implies a more, um, monolithic population at one time. In the big scheme of things, social progress in gaming is small potatoes. I think, though, we can agree that, whether it was white guys mainly or not, if you were a gamer decades ago, and you tried to explain what it was, non-gaming folks thought you were a bit strange. Today? Not so much. Or rather, as much? That seems to me what this is all about. Gamers were seen as weird folk. Now, weirdness is okay.

I think the reason why we can assert that everyone was always welcome* is that some demographics had the perception you mention afterwards that D&D was for smelly nerds.
Things change, gaming has become pretty mainstream. There's a lot less peer pressure to avoid the nerdy hobbies.

*Your statement. Absolutes are probably not accurate here.

QuoteHell, is there such a thing as weird these days?

I admit, I'm scratching my head. I think being conservative is the new counter-culture. So maybe that?

Quote from: rawma;1094821So I take it you agree that jeff37923 was wrong, if not dishonest?

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Quote from: rawma;1094821What, no defense of your erroneous assertions about theRPGsite's response to racists?

Why? My assertions are not erroneous and the only reason why you are here is role-play the crusader striking a blow for social justice. Even if I made some kind of "defense", you would only say that it is just another reason for you to hoist yourself up upon that cross and die for the sake of intersectionality in the hope that by dying you will bring about our redemption.

Quote from: rawma;1094821I started lurking at the end of the 5e D&D playtest and posting after the PHB was released but before the other core books (when some posters here had seen early copies). This site is capable of good discussion of gaming (even jeff37923 - that hunka hunka burnin' love that I so desire, if only Senpai would see me as I want him to see me! ) when it's not obsessing over that other RPG website or stupid political crap (you do realize that the fate or survival of the RPG hobby, no matter how dire, says nothing about the fate or survival of civilization?). One of the moderators (before they all quit) expressed disappointment that posters did not step up to dispute false information posted, and I am happy to contribute in my small way to the campaign to avoid being an echo chamber.

Dance monkey! Dance!
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Quote from: rawma;1094821But if you don't like my posts, you can take another 36 hour vacation. Free speech for the win no matter what you decide.

Well, since I already live rent free 24/7 inside of your head, vacations are not allowed for me.  So I'll just sum up your argument below.

[video=youtube;tAh8rNsjWt4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAh8rNsjWt4[/youtube]

Quote from: Zalman;1094854I guess ignoring "demographics", which apparently equates to "skin color", is easier for some than others. And for some reason it's always white people that are singled out. Every time. Nobody pontificates about having to ignore basketball's "demographics", but gaming is badwhitefun.

I would add gender in with skin color, and would assert that the gender component is at least as important in considering the question. Didn't say it was badwrongfun. Just stating who seems to dominate the hobby. Also stated that the demographics seem to have changed. This is not a value judgment. Just an observation.

As for basketball, if you can play, you can play, at least on the non-pro courts. I know this because I used to. A lot. Too old and out of shape now. But it's a shitty comparison because basketball requires some developed physical conditioning, and a ton of skill honing, whereas gaming just requires an ass to sit on and the ability to talk (which, at my current age, I appreciate).

As for white people, particularly males, being singled out, it's taken a long to be called to account for some things. People who formerly couldn't say anything now feel they can, and they so do. Some folks can't handle that, though, so they label every critic an SJW, then bitch and moan they're being unfairly targeted. It's like the idiots who think Christianity is under attack. So, everyone's aggrieved, and someone else is to blame. No admissions are made, no common ground is achieved, and the world belongs to people who enjoy being pissed off all the time. it's ridiculous really. All it does is drive moderate voices into silence, clearing the space for the self-aggrandizing, blowhard extremists, leaving us with the sound of two bricks slapping together.

Maybe it's a UK v US thing, but race really isn't an issue in gaming in Britain. Seriously, I've been doing this over 25 years, and no one cares that I'm brown. It's never been a thing.

As a collective, gamers are far more accepting of "difference" than the general population. Mostly because all that is required to take part is an interest in this rather strange activity. Being interested and enthusiastic tends to overcome all other factors.

Quote from: cranebump;1094832Just asserted that, welcoming or not, decades ago, it seemed a white guy's hobby.

Just because most of the player base in my neck of the woods in the mid-1980s was male does not mean a systematic campaign of exclusion was being waged by us to get other POC or female gamers from the hobby.

Of course their were some and perhaps still do want to only play with white male gamers and keep others other. They are nowhere near a large a group as the SJW narrative like to imply that it is.

In the 80s we never turned away POC or female gamers the second in my neck of the woods was rare. Not because of lack of POC in schools or outside of it. As female gamers their seemed a lack of interest and with the first no interest in gaming let alone wanting to hang out with gamers. To many women of that time we were social pariahs. Not knowing that the geek and nerds woud end up being their bosses and the jocks also would work for them too. No gay players in my group or if they were in the closest. In the late 90s and early 2000s we began to see more gay people entering our group. We welcomed them. No transgender gamers yet.

Either way it is way too easy to say "well it looks like it was just a white male hobby to me". Implying no effort was made to recruit POC, gays, trans and female gamers. You know what else many who spout that nonsense ignore. One can't force anyone to game with anybody. If I put an ad out to recruit people for a new campaign and only white (mostly straight) males answer. I'm not going to put my campaign on hold for 3-5 years to get other non-white non-straight members.

Social Justice Wankers are convinced that the only reason why there are not more minorities in gaming is because they would be unwelcome, howling about racism and misogyny are popular lies for them. The truth is that there aren't enough minorities in gaming for their taste because most minorities are not interested in the hobby (just like the vast majority of straight white men aren't interested). The kicker to all this SJW weeping and wailing is that it is turning off those who might be interested in trying the hobby, because who in their right mind wants to walk into the same level of acrimony that is being exhibited here and especially on other forums?

Face it fucknuckles, this social pressure campaign against the majority of the hobby has helped to drive away the exact people that they wanted in the hobby.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1094825we should cook and eat Jeff while dancing to Abba.

Cooking and eating Jeff is fine.

Abba however, is a hate crime.

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Quote from: Blankman;1094791The rpg hobby/industry does not have a high threshold for participation. You don't Have to put in 20 years waiting for a promotion before you get the chance to be a "big name". You can just make shit and write shit and if people think it's good, rock and roll. There's like one transgendered rpg writer in Sweden who has had a recent meteoric rise, but she puts in the work too, writing scenarios for various publishers, running scenarios at conventions, holding panels at conventions etc. You want to meet the movers and shakers of the rpg hobby in Sweden? Go to GothCon, they'll pretty much all be there. Network a bit, show off your stuff, and if it is any good, something could happen really fast.

I must be frank when I say that I dislike that person with a passion. She gave a thumbs up when I was banned from the biggest Swedish rpg forum there is. That site is pure leftist quagmire. I think that person has gotten a seat in Sveroks nominating committee. She's also the head of some gaming group called The QueerNerds. She is a frequent speaker at gaming conventions like you said, rubbing elbows with the right people. But do you think that person would have gotten to where she is if she had been a white, conservative male and SD-party member like me? A bald, fat guy born in 1972? I've been gaming since 1984. I'm not cool, extrovert and popular. I have anxiety issues and agoraphobia. I'm not a feminist or a genderfluid LGBTQ-supporter. Hell, I'm not even friendly. I'm a toxic male who grew up in a world of old Swedish rpgs, Schwarzenegger and horror movies, Marvel, porn magazines and heavy metal.

There's also another matter with my political affiliation I mentioned. Did you know that if you happen to be actively involved in the Sweden Democrats in any way (which I'm not due to my mental health) you will be excluded from any kind of position in Sverok? You can't even start a local gaming group, register it with Sverok and get a small fund like every other Sverok-connected group if your acting chairman is active in the Sweden Democrats. It's ok to be a communist though. It's always ok to be a commie in Sweden. Swedens biggest umbrella organization for gamers is as leftist as they come and will not give monetary to support rpg groups who don't "share the same values" as them.

With that in play, being a transgender with a high position in Sverok and someone who likes to be in the spotlight, attending gaming conventions, participating in  panel talks, rubbing elbows, fighting for LGBTQ-inclusion, being a professed "horror expert" and most likely sharing similar leftist views as the big names in the Swedish rpg scene - well what could stop her from getting her suckers stuck to everything in the Swedish rpg world? Shitty writing? Nah, I doubt that.

I wrote you a longer reply (but it got lost when I pressed Go Advanced), with her popping up in the FB groups for the upcoming Swedish Chill (Chock) and the upcoming Swedish rendition of CoC. She's gotten the chance to write for both (well, both games will be published by the same company). So now Chock and Swedish CoC scenarios coming from her will get a treatment in the genderblender, just like her adventure for Tales from the Loop got. Bravo. That's just what horror games need. I'm really looking forward playing a genderfluid, polyamorous, crossdressing Peter Cushing waving islamic prayer beads in the Swedish version of Chill. True dread. True dread, indeed.

In the FB forums for the Swedish CoC there was a request from the creators on suggestions for Swedish based Cthulhu scenarios. Among alot of stuff I proposed a Cthulhian twist on the historic Kautokeino rebellion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kautokeino_rebellion), where a group of religious freaks (sami converts) started a mini crusade up north, murdered two people (including a police man), flogged a priest and set fire to buildings. They were eventually stopped by other sami.

Naturally my transgender nemesis was on it like a fly on shit, stating how sensitive the issue was with portraying the sami in that way (it was just a group of 35 adults and 22 kids under 13), that we should avoid doing what Lovecraft did when describing minorities, etc. That wasn't my point at all. My point was that there could be a horror story to extract from the events, where a Mythos entitity made the sect members do what they did. That was all, but she and another person kept harping on about how sensitive the issue was and all that jazz. If I had begun a serious debate about it, I would probably have been banned from that group as well.

Look, you just said it yourself. You are not cool, extrovert or popular, you are not even friendly. The person you are talking about is extroverted, popular and friendly (cool is in the eye of the beholder). That goes a long way when freelancing in a small industry where personal connections are paramount. She also seems to have a great ability to sell herself and her stuff. And again, this is one person. I can't think of any other prominent Swedish adventure writers who are also transgender. In fact I can only think of one other prominent Swedish adventure writer. Most are famous as game designers who also maybe write adventures for their games.

Other big names in Sweden's rpg scene? Well, you've got Krister Sundelin who has been active in the hobby forever, wrote for Neogames in the 90s, constantly draws pinups/nudes of his company mascot and ran the Playelf gallery on his website for many years (basically a fantasy Playboy, but all drawn and without the articles). The guys at The Iron Ring (now a part of Free League) have been involved in stuff since the 80s. Anders Blixt is one of the OGs of the Swedish roleplaying scene and has been active forever (and is highly anti-communist as far as I know). The Gillbring couple have been publishing their Western rpg since the early 90s. There are some new faces yeah, it happens, but it isn't suddenly all young and hip lgbt people in the Swedish rpg scene. And there are enough people left from the old days that you could be there too, if you wanted to and had the talent and interpersonal skills.

It just sounds like you have a beef with one particular person and are deciding to make it about her identity in general rather than her personally. I'm not particularly enamored with her scenarios (good GM though), but you know what? If you don't like em, don't buy em. It isn't like she's writing the games themselves, just an adventure or so for each.

Quote from: cranebump;1094862...and the world belongs to people who enjoy being pissed off all the time. it's ridiculous really. All it does is drive moderate voices into silence, clearing the space for the self-aggrandizing, blowhard extremists...

We seem to agree about the symptoms but not the cause. I think that it's a lack of pushing back against obnoxious behavior as long as it's dressed up in wokeness that most often leads to the world belonging to people who enjoy being pissed off.

Yeah It's annoying to have people that are entryists and don't actually play.

Like, a good amount of my players are SJWs, but they play, and they completely disagree with the "woke critique" of DND.
At the same time I am on many servers where people who never played think that it's a valid critique.

At the end of the day it depends on the person, but I'll never take my advice from someone who's only experience with DND is watching critical role and posting DND memes on Tumblr.

Quote from: A5paperboy;1094881At the end of the day it depends on the person, but I'll never take my advice from someone who's only experience with DND is watching critical role and posting DND memes on Tumblr.

I am stealing this one! :D

Quote from: Blankman;1094871Look, you just said it yourself. You are not cool, extrovert or popular, you are not even friendly. The person you are talking about is extroverted, popular and friendly (cool is in the eye of the beholder). That goes a long way when freelancing in a small industry where personal connections are paramount. She also seems to have a great ability to sell herself and her stuff. And again, this is one person. I can't think of any other prominent Swedish adventure writers who are also transgender. In fact I can only think of one other prominent Swedish adventure writer. Most are famous as game designers who also maybe write adventures for their games.

Other big names in Sweden's rpg scene? Well, you've got Krister Sundelin who has been active in the hobby forever, wrote for Neogames in the 90s, constantly draws pinups/nudes of his company mascot and ran the Playelf gallery on his website for many years (basically a fantasy Playboy, but all drawn and without the articles). The guys at The Iron Ring (now a part of Free League) have been involved in stuff since the 80s. Anders Blixt is one of the OGs of the Swedish roleplaying scene and has been active forever (and is highly anti-communist as far as I know). The Gillbring couple have been publishing their Western rpg since the early 90s. There are some new faces yeah, it happens, but it isn't suddenly all young and hip lgbt people in the Swedish rpg scene. And there are enough people left from the old days that you could be there too, if you wanted to and had the talent and interpersonal skills.

It just sounds like you have a beef with one particular person and are deciding to make it about her identity in general rather than her personally. I'm not particularly enamored with her scenarios (good GM though), but you know what? If you don't like em, don't buy em. It isn't like she's writing the games themselves, just an adventure or so for each.

I believe myself to be on the friendly side of Erik Granström, Tobias Tranell (map maker) and probably Anders Blixt and Thomas Arfert. I'm very active and quite respected on //www.erebaltor.se which is a site/forum for the game world for old Drakar och Demoner.

If you're Swedish and visit //www.rollspel.nu you'll soon find that the site is run by a coven of leftists and feminists. Hell, there's even a Flashback thread on how infected that rpg site is. If you think rpg.net is bad, you haven't seen anything. They even have a feminist manifesto stickered in the forum. I have a beef with many on that site, including Magnus Seter who runs it. I have a burning dislike for most of them. There have been a group of people who supported me via private messages but I seldom got open support on that site when they ganged up on me with their SJW shit.

I have nothing bad to say about the Gillbrings (I like Western IV) apart from the fact that their only costumer forum is at the mercy of that leftist rpg site. That's just bad business, really.

Btw, Järnringen had nothing to do with the old Mutant and Äventyrsspel. They started around 2002.

"And there are enough people left from the old days that you could be there too, if you wanted to and had the talent and interpersonal skills." The old guard contribute very little to the new RPGs that are being made. They might write a scenario or two, that's about it. Granström would probably be the exception with Forbidden Lands since he wrote alot of background material.

I will send in scenarios to Eloso Förlag after I have witnessed the results of their Swedish versions of Chill and Call of Cthulhu. They might fuck it all up. I will register at DriveThruRpg too and try to sell English scenarios too when the stars are right. But you shouldn't confuse talent with rubbing elbows with inclusive game publishers and other interpersonal skills. You can have talent and still be a loner and top notch bastard like me. I do watch kitten videos on Youtube though and I once saved an unknown latino girl's favourite doll. I have also saved two cats that fell from my white trash neighbours balcony. Those are the things that still keep me humane I guess. Otherwise I would hover around like the Eye of Sauron or walk upon cloven hooves.

Iron Ring the company no, but the people who founded that company were active and doing fan things for games since at least the early nineties I believe (it's been over ten years since I talked to them about this). As for other activity, Sundelin has two rpgs currently in print, Anders Blixt just announced a new rpg, the Gillbrings are working on their translation of Western despite cancer etc etc. So the old guard is plenty active I would say.

Rollspel.nu I don't hang out at, it never seemed interesting to me. Not my type of game being discussed mostly. But I checked it out and mostly saw a bunch of people, including who I presume to be you, acting like a bunch assholes.

As for talent, interpersonal skills are a necessary component of it, at least if you want to be able to sell your stuff.

Actually, what I find missing from this conversation is the internal resistance and conformity pressures within minority groups. :( If you actually talk to everyone you'll find they often feel like the odd duck out for doing nerdy things -- which is the good news as everyone into RPGs shares the flak for "being weird." But the level of social pressure within groups seems to vary between groups, and seems especially isolating for minorities from fellow minorities. :(

(In Sociology this is often referred to as expectations to be a paragon, be a representative for one's group to the entire world... One's own sin becomes the group sin and a risk to survival. So "being different" takes on a different threat urgency. It is an unfair pressure, but socializing does not have to conform to fairness or individualism logic. :()

Reminds me that I miss the old/not-so-old Swedish made Space Hulk/Alien Assault PC game group. Did alot of spritework on various projects with that. Including a whole recreation of the Mutant Chronicles: Siege of the Citadel board game in AA. Wryly ironic.

(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/original/img/74ZkF6ivWtHmybaZc5X8zB_fzII=/0x0/pic1025185.png)

And still we come back to the old conundrum.

SJWs claim RPGs were never inclusive and that some sort of majority white players were actively chasing off minority players. That no women or minorities worked in the industry everrrrr. Or at least not in positions of command. Everrrrrrrr. Or it is not diverse ENOUGH! Because it is never ENOUGH! no matter what you do.

Yet we know that is not true and never was in the ways these fruitcakes keep trying to claim. But people will believe them because Social Justice! Why they would neverrrrr lie to us! Right?

And then someone bitches because "you iz complainin about politics in mu RPGz!" Take a look around!

Quote from: Omega;1094903Reminds me that I miss the old/not-so-old Swedish made Space Hulk/Alien Assault PC game group. Did alot of spritework on various projects with that. Including a whole recreation of the Mutant Chronicles: Siege of the Citadel board game in AA. Wryly ironic.

Loved that game! I'm going to have to look and see if I can find a download and replay it.

Quote from: Blankman;1094891Iron Ring the company no, but the people who founded that company were active and doing fan things for games since at least the early nineties I believe (it's been over ten years since I talked to them about this). As for other activity, Sundelin has two rpgs currently in print, Anders Blixt just announced a new rpg, the Gillbrings are working on their translation of Western despite cancer etc etc. So the old guard is plenty active I would say.

Rollspel.nu I don't hang out at, it never seemed interesting to me. Not my type of game being discussed mostly. But I checked it out and mostly saw a bunch of people, including who I presume to be you, acting like a bunch assholes.

As for talent, interpersonal skills are a necessary component of it, at least if you want to be able to sell your stuff.

I don't know what new rpg Blixt is working on unless you mean Expert 2.0 and Gillbrings run their own show. They seldom work with freelancers. The opportunity for freelancers is the greatest when it comes to the newer Swedish rpg publishers.

But I can sell my own shit in pdf form through Drivethrurpg and still be a grumpy loner asshole if I feel like it. That's the beauty of internet. People will never know. Hell, I can even do a Kickstarter like the rest if I want. I don't need to visit gaming conventions, participate in panel talks and bow before Sverok and their "values".

I suppose technically there is one way in which RPGs have not been welcoming:

In the nerds are not cool days, most gaming groups had nerds in them.  So if you wanted to play, you had to be seen associating with uncool people.  Occasionally, the local cool people would try to start their own group so that they could keep the nerds out and not suffer that stigma, but rarely could one of them DM worth a damn.  And if she could (it was not infrequently a she in those exceptional cases because what is cooler than a female DM that doesn't care what other people think?), she didn't want most of the cool people as players, because they were too worried about being cool to play worth a damn.   Thus she became "not cool" in local parlance, but some things can't be kept down.  

Repeat this a zillion times over several decades, and magnify in other nerd hobbies, and then we reach the point where doing your own thing because you like it is kind of cool.  Yet there is still a clique desperately trying to throw out the people in the hobby that enjoy it.  Yes, gaming is not very welcoming to people that want to control how every one else does it.  The horror!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1094825And as punishment, we should cook and eat Jeff while dancing to Abba.

Quote from: BronzeDragon;1094867Cooking and eating Jeff is fine.

Abba however, is a hate crime.

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I missed that whole bit where Spinachcat recommends that I be cooked and eaten. I can deal with that in a Stranger in a Strange Land kind of way.

Just, can you make it The Ramones at least? I only listen to Abba when I want to fuck a stripper.

Quote from: jeff37923;1094923Just, can you make it The Ramones at least? I only listen to Abba when I want to fuck a stripper.

I am so stealing this...just as soon as I finish cleaning my drink off of the laptop. :D

Quote from: cranebump;1094862As for white people, particularly males, being singled out, it's taken a long to be called to account for some things. People who formerly couldn't say anything now feel they can, and they so do.

The problem is that there are at least two broad groups of people that fit into statements like this. The first would be the folks who best fit the statement you make here. People with a legitimate complaint who one way or another have finally found a voice. I'd wager most of us on this forum don't have a single bone to pick with this group. Our problem is with the second group. The ones we cal Social Just 's. The Woke Wagon. Statistically speaking these are themselves "white people" (an idiotic term if ever there was one, but ignore that for now) with some kind of self loathing mental disorder who frankly have no business whatsoever being part of the conversation. None. There isn't an argument you or anyone else can make that makes that untrue. Those are the people, in my opinion, these forum posts get riled up about.

Anecdotally, I find it interesting that all the people of color that I know (and I know a great many due to work) and the handful of gay people I interact with on a regular basis tell me that it's this second group even they wish would just shut the flying fuck up. They do far, far more harm than good (though in general their humanities studies have taught them otherwise), and nobody in any of these "marginalized groups" needs anyone fighting their battles for them. They don't need wannabes or "allies". They need people to butt the fuck out.

Quote from: jeff37923;1094858My assertions are not erroneous

If they are not erroneous, step up and provide evidence. Besides 5 Stone Games (who announced his race suicide concern early on, but continued to post for two years), who was banned for being racist and how quickly? (Nobody has challenged "misogyny". Well done! "Knowing yourself is the beginning of all wisdom.")

The rest of your reply is just nonsense.

Quote from: jeff37923;1094923I missed that whole bit where Spinachcat recommends that I be cooked and eaten.

Three images in his previous reply? He's thoroughly steamed; no further cooking should be necessary.

Quote from: rawma;1094940If they are not erroneous, step up and provide evidence. Besides 5 Stone Games (who announced his race suicide concern early on, but continued to post for two years), who was banned for being racist and how quickly? (Nobody has challenged "misogyny". Well done! "Knowing yourself is the beginning of all wisdom.")

The rest of your reply is just nonsense.



Three images in his previous reply? He's thoroughly steamed; no further cooking should be necessary.

Oh Noes!  Muhsoggyknees? Where? we must "challenge it all en mase!

Bwahahahahahahaha

Quickly ban words that might offend a stronk independent wahmen who don't need no fish, the white knight demands it!

Quote from: rawma;1094940If they are not erroneous, step up and provide evidence. Besides 5 Stone Games (who announced his race suicide concern early on, but continued to post for two years), who was banned for being racist and how quickly? (Nobody has challenged "misogyny". Well done! "Knowing yourself is the beginning of all wisdom.")

Please provide evidence of your purity to the committee together with your social media history where it will be assessed as to your suitability

Quote from: A5paperboy;1094881but I'll never take my advice from someone who's only experience with DND is watching critical role and posting DND memes on Tumblr.

Welcome aboard A5paperboy!!

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1094869I'm a toxic male who grew up in a world of old Swedish rpgs, Schwarzenegger and horror movies, Marvel, porn magazines and heavy metal.

Then you have all the credentials necessary to write and publish RPGs.

Get thee to a word processor.

I've heard nearly your exact story at least a dozen times from other Swedes. This leads me to conclude the following:

1) Sweden is seriously fucked up.

2) There is a market in Sweden for non-SJW RPGing. While the fucknuts are noisy and "social", I bet there are many thousands of horrendous and unredeemable deplorable scum like you who would love to game together without any woke bullshit at their table.

Find them, join them together and bind them to your banner.

I'm not kidding.

Quote from: jeff37923;1094923I missed that whole bit where Spinachcat recommends that I be cooked and eaten. I can deal with that in a Stranger in a Strange Land kind of way.

Just, can you make it The Ramones at least? I only listen to Abba when I want to fuck a stripper.

1) The Ramones is terrible dinner music. Waiters wouldn't even know when to bring out the soup.

2) You might have been found WRONG ON THE INTERNET!!! On the Internet Jeff!! Being eaten is really the most lenient punishment possible when you think about it. I mean, is it even possible for anyone really go on with life if they were ever found wrong on the internet?

Quote from: rawma;1094940If they are not erroneous, step up and provide evidence. Besides 5 Stone Games (who announced his race suicide concern early on, but continued to post for two years), who was banned for being racist and how quickly?

So you can provide one guy as evidence of misogyny or racism out of how many thousands of members of theRPGSite?

Quote from: rawma;1094940(Nobody has challenged "misogyny". Well done! "Knowing yourself is the beginning of all wisdom.")

Dude, everyone can tell that you are just virtue signalling. We've seen it before. We've seen you do this before.

Quote from: rawma;1094940The rest of your reply is just nonsense.

As is your claim that this forum mollycoddles racists and misogynists.

Nobody will convince you that you are wrong, so why try? I'm talking to other readers of this discussion who are more open minded than you. All you deserve is to be mocked.

Quote from: rawma;1094940Three images in his previous reply? He's thoroughly steamed; no further cooking should be necessary.

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"A picture is worth a thousand words........"

Quote from: Spinachcat;10949701) The Ramones is terrible dinner music. Waiters wouldn't even know when to bring out the soup.

When "Rockaway Beach (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79S5k1pgWZU)" is playing, obviously.

Quote from: Spinachcat;10949702) You might have been found WRONG ON THE INTERNET!!! On the Internet Jeff!! Being eaten is really the most lenient punishment possible when you think about it. I mean, is it even possible for anyone really go on with life if they were ever found wrong on the internet?

I've got jury duty for the next three weeks on a very ugly medical malpractice case, isn't that punishment enough?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1094970Then you have all the credentials necessary to write and publish RPGs.

Get thee to a word processor.

I've heard nearly your exact story at least a dozen times from other Swedes. This leads me to conclude the following:

1) Sweden is seriously fucked up.

2) There is a market in Sweden for non-SJW RPGing. While the fucknuts are noisy and "social", I bet there are many thousands of horrendous and unredeemable deplorable scum like you who would love to game together without any woke bullshit at their table.

Find them, join them together and bind them to your banner.

I'm not kidding.

Thank you, kind Sir. I will write, damn it! And yes, Sweden is Fubar. Naturally this has rubbed off on the rpg industry. You have old game designers bending their knees at the Most Sacred Orifice of Wokeness, taking the blame for "racist/chauvinistic/unfresh" parts of 80's rpg products and woving to become more "inclusive" in their new products.

I will try to shake life into the old Flashback thread where there was some talk about a more conservative gaming affiliation, something less woke than Sverok - a group where the shunned ones, the scum of the rpg earth, could join together without the Twitter neckbeards, bluehaired cosplayers, Wokeness, X-cards and political claptrap.

Quote from: cranebump;1094862So, everyone's aggrieved, and someone else is to blame. No admissions are made, no common ground is achieved, and the world belongs to people who enjoy being pissed off all the time. it's ridiculous really. All it does is drive moderate voices into silence, clearing the space for the self-aggrandizing, blowhard extremists, leaving us with the sound of two bricks slapping together.

Are all the self-aggrandizing, blowhard extremists white males by any chance? Also how far are you going back with this "People who formerly couldn't say anything now feel they can"  60's, 70s, 80's, 90s, 00s? and what exactly are they trying to  say apart from White Man Evil.

Quote from: rawma;1094940If they are not erroneous, step up and provide evidence. Besides 5 Stone Games (who announced his race suicide concern early on, but continued to post for two years), who was banned for being racist and how quickly? (Nobody has challenged "misogyny". Well done! "Knowing yourself is the beginning of all wisdom.")

Hey, we have you here. You've never been banned or even censured by the mods, IIRC. What does that mean, if we're going by "guilt by association"?

As for 5 Stone, I'd rather people talked about their ideas, no matter how kooky or mundane, because the space we give them to speak, is the kind of space that everyone with an opinion would want to speak. Remember, once gay activism was an unpopoular topic. Now, we have goddamn rainbow flags all over the place!

Quote from: Opaopajr;1094898Actually, what I find missing from this conversation is the internal resistance and conformity pressures within minority groups. :( If you actually talk to everyone you'll find they often feel like the odd duck out for doing nerdy things -- which is the good news as everyone into RPGs shares the flak for "being weird." But the level of social pressure within groups seems to vary between groups, and seems especially isolating for minorities from fellow minorities. :(

(In Sociology this is often referred to as expectations to be a paragon, be a representative for one's group to the entire world... One's own sin becomes the group sin and a risk to survival. So "being different" takes on a different threat urgency. It is an unfair pressure, but socializing does not have to conform to fairness or individualism logic. :()

As far as I have seen SJWs are completely  blind to the hostility generated in poc communities now and then ,  especially African American communities. It is as if they have never heard of the label of Uncle Tom.

[video=youtube;ZcgyYd4Ev6w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcgyYd4Ev6w[/youtube] 1:52
[video=youtube;42qsTwM-xCs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42qsTwM-xCs[/youtube]
[video=youtube;Zd4wXAUFAow]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd4wXAUFAow[/youtube]

Or as they're called in Britain "coconuts" (brown on the outside, white on the inside). I've had that levelled at me more than once, though mostly at school.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1094647Do you guys have transgenders in your rpg groups? It seems the rpg industry is full of them these days and I got quite alot of shit from such people on the Swedish forum. Don't get me wrong, but has it become trendy to become a transgender rpg nerd these days? I have noticed that quite a few of them have risen through the ranks and now get to be a part of the production of new rpgs, as scenario writers and such. They have quickly become people of great influence. Much of it is because they are transgenders in my book. But I could be wrong, of course. I'm just an old bald bigot.

I had one trans in my group for four years or so in the Nineties. Gaia had no problem playing with us until she decided that all leisure-time activity was frivolous and detracted from her need to change the world. When we would run into each other, she would ask about the game and seemed to remember it fondly. She was a male to female trans and all of the characters she ever played were women.

I had another one hang out with me and create a character. Sandy soloed the character several times in the wee hours of the all-night bookstore. Her character had been gender-switched by  a spell. One night, there was another player there and they both played a session until customers started coming in. Bruce is very old-fashioned and conservative but also polite. He said that he enjoyed playing with her and asked her why she didn't play with the group. She said that she was working up the courage but she never did. She was very shy of groups.

Quote from: Shasarak;1094953Please provide evidence of your purity to the committee together with your social media history where it will be assessed as to your suitability

As I recall, the standard for joining theRPGsite was to copy a word that was provided. Looking at the registration page now, it appears there's a captcha image to type, a simple arithmetic problem and agreeing to the rules. Are you calling for higher screening standards to provide you with the echo chamber of your dreams?

Or are you suggesting that I have ever posted something "obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws"? Citation required, but not by me; you can report it to the moderators. (Usually there's a link at the lower left of each post to report it; even in closed threads, apparently.)

Quote from: jeff37923;1094976So you can provide one guy as evidence of misogyny or racism out of how many thousands of members of theRPGSite?

The goalposts just shattered into splinters from this attempted move. YOU said that every such case was quickly banned; are YOU saying there's exactly one (who wasn't quickly banned)? I already referenced one who was declared racist by a moderator but never banned. It was in the thread that gave you the vapors and led to a 36 hour vacation on your fainting couch. I have no interest in having that person or anyone else banned; you are also the one who brought up banning as a solution.

Quote"A picture is worth a thousand words........"

So I've prompted you to spend 6000+ words on me in reply to my several hundred? :D

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1094994Hey, we have you here. You've never been banned or even censured by the mods, IIRC. What does that mean, if we're going by "guilt by association"?

Who would I be associated with who you want to judge guilty, and guilty of what? :confused:

QuoteAs for 5 Stone, I'd rather people talked about their ideas, no matter how kooky or mundane, because the space we give them to speak, is the kind of space that everyone with an opinion would want to speak. Remember, once gay activism was an unpopoular topic. Now, we have goddamn rainbow flags all over the place!

And I am free to point out error and hypocrisy. It's not virtue signaling; it's the robust exchange of ideas. :)

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1095023I had one trans in my group for four years or so in the Nineties. Gaia had no problem playing with us until she decided that all leisure-time activity was frivolous and detracted from her need to change the world. When we would run into each other, she would ask about the game and seemed to remember it fondly. She was a male to female trans and all of the characters she ever played were women.

I had another one hang out with me and create a character. Sandy soloed the character several times in the wee hours of the all-night bookstore. Her character had been gender-switched by  a spell. One night, there was another player there and they both played a session until customers started coming in. Bruce is very old-fashioned and conservative but also polite. He said that he enjoyed playing with her and asked her why she didn't play with the group. She said that she was working up the courage but she never did. She was very shy of groups.

FWIW, I hadn't played with any transgender players in the 80s and 90s, as far as I know. Currently, I have two transgender and one intersex people in my gaming groups. (I live in the SF Bay area, where most varieties of LGBT seem more common than the U.S. as a whole.) I also played for many years with someone whom I only found out later was transgender. None of them are particularly involved in online gaming groups or game design, and are pretty shy about going to communities or groups.

Quote from: rawma;1095042The goalposts just shattered into splinters from this attempted move. YOU said that every such case was quickly banned; are YOU saying there's exactly one (who wasn't quickly banned)? I already referenced one who was declared racist by a moderator but never banned. It was in the thread that gave you the vapors and led to a 36 hour vacation on your fainting couch. I have no interest in having that person or anyone else banned; you are also the one who brought up banning as a solution.

Nice tapdancing! You even added some snark for taste! :p:D

You have made the claim that TheRPGSite is a haven for racists and misogynists. The burden of proof is on you and I find your evidence sorely lacking. You Must Try Harder!

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Quote from: rawma;1095042So I've prompted you to spend 6000+ words on me in reply to my several hundred? :D

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Quote from: rawma;1095042The goalposts just shattered into splinters from this attempted move. YOU said that every such case was quickly banned; are YOU saying there's exactly one (who wasn't quickly banned)? I already referenced one who was declared racist by a moderator but never banned. It was in the thread that gave you the vapors and led to a 36 hour vacation on your fainting couch. I have no interest in having that person or anyone else banned; you are also the one who brought up banning as a solution.

Nice tapdancing! You even added some snark for taste! :p:D

You have made the claim that TheRPGSite is a haven for racists and misogynists. The burden of proof is on you and I find your evidence sorely lacking. You Must Try Harder!

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Quote from: rawma;1095042Who would I be associated with who you want to judge guilty, and guilty of what? :confused:

US! You accuse this site of being full of misogynists and racists, yet when asked, you were able to come up with one dude, who got banned. I can only assume the others means the rest of the posters here. Unless you're referring to yourself being a racist and misogynist?

Quotend I am free to point out error and hypocrisy. It's not virtue signaling; it's the robust exchange of ideas. :)

Wonderful! If only more people had that attitude.

Sorry been busy... I picked this post to elaborate.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093528But somehow not enough to you.



Wait, why is it my problem if someone doesn't have a group? Or are you claiming it's Racism!tm? So we as gamers aren't trully inclusive unless everybody has a group?

I'm sure I wasn't the only kid who got the Red Box and discovered this amazing game. The Mentzer Red Box was kind of like a gateway drug... it sure hooked me. Why is this all the sudden called out as racism? I guess you play with your own and my experiences is white suburbia. My post doesn't mention anything about racism. My point is more directed towards the posts like this:

QuoteBecause I've known them since I was 13 years old. 10 years old in one case. Besides, I have this little handy gadget:

Name:  gaydar1.jpg
Views: 139
Size:  11.9 KB

Gaydar is dumb and anyone who uses that term is a moron. The dumb post is here for reference: https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40772-SJWs-are-Liars!-The-Hobby-Always-Welcomed-Everyone!&p=1093447&viewfull=1#post1093447

QuoteSo you played a solo adventure? Are you telling us you couldn't find anybody to play? Back then how many kids you think learned the exact same way? And even today, if you're lucky you learn in a group with an "experienced" GM the rest form their all novice groups and learn by themselves. Why is this a bad thing or our fault?

I found plenty to play with. The point was I learned through the Red Box books (which was the whole intent of those books). Why is it a bad thing that others besides me get recognition in a game? Why do people 'flip out' if there are homosexual or trans-gender characters in the game? Again pointing to posts above (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40772-SJWs-are-Liars!-The-Hobby-Always-Welcomed-Everyone!&p=1093447&viewfull=1#post1093447). You are well meaning and reasonable people right?

QuoteSo at age ten you were a badass fighter killing Dragons in real life?
Do you know many of us play as females? Why can't a girl play as a man?
Why should the sex of a character give them script shields?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rH-u9lUZCQ

Whoa what? Not sure how this is relevant. None of this makes any sense. Not sure where you reach these conclusions.

QuoteAgain so what? Go find a group.



Exactly who are we trying to force to play as we say? How are we doing that? I demand evidence of this.



Funny you mention this, we don't really play anti-sjw games (that would be boring) but SJWs do play anti-"fascist" games, and they define as fascist anybody to the right of Mao.

Edit: The proof is in the pudding as they say

Fair enough... this was a mistake on my part. None of the games you play are anti-SJW or whatever. I apologize for that.

Quote from: fixable;1095063Why is it a bad thing that others besides me get recognition in a game? Why do people 'flip out' if there are homosexual or trans-gender characters in the game? Again pointing to posts above (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40772-SJWs-are-Liars!-The-Hobby-Always-Welcomed-Everyone!&p=1093447&viewfull=1#post1093447). You are well meaning and reasonable people right?

If you don't mind, I'll give you my own answer.

I'm going to assume that you aren't here just to virtue signal like rawma is, so I think that an honest explanation is in order. I'll take your questions one by one and answer.

Quote from: fixable;1095063Why is it a bad thing that others besides me get recognition in a game?

It isn't a bad thing to do so, in and of itself. It is when that recognition is done in a ham-fisted manner that assumes that tabletop RPG gamers were not already an open and welcoming group in general or that the recognition needs to be shoehorned into a product that disregards that products theme or setting just to be considered "woke" (which is considered pandering).

Quote from: fixable;1095063Why do people 'flip out' if there are homosexual or trans-gender characters in the game?

They don't if those characters make sense in the game as part of the setting or the plot of the adventure. Do some react negatively? Yes. Are those a majority of the hobby and are reacting out of bigotry? No.

Quote from: fixable;1095063You are well meaning and reasonable people right?

We like to think so. ;)

Quote from: jeff37923;1095070If you don't mind, I'll give you my own answer.

I'm going to assume that you aren't here just to virtue signal like rawma is, so I think that an honest explanation is in order. I'll take your questions one by one and answer.

Thanks, I'm going to respond with some honest questions:

I'm not sure what the definition of 'virtue signaling' is. Do you have a clear definition? I see the term used here and elsewhere. Personally, I see it as a term mostly used to dismiss an opposing viewpoint.

QuoteIt isn't a bad thing to do so, in and of itself. It is when that recognition is done in a ham-fisted manner that assumes that tabletop RPG gamers were not already an open and welcoming group in general or that the recognition needs to be shoehorned into a product that disregards that products theme or setting just to be considered "woke" (which is considered pandering).

But who decides whether it is ham-fisted and pandering or not? Who decides if something is 'woke'? Why does including such assume a lack of welcoming to the game? It sounds kind of hypocritical to me. If you are open and welcoming, then why the resistance to non-binary or transgender characters? Where is the line drawn that it is done for 'virtual signaling'? What do you consider an 'acceptable' use of such characters?

QuoteThey don't if those characters make sense in the game as part of the setting or the plot of the adventure. Do some react negatively? Yes. Are those a majority of the hobby and are reacting out of bigotry? No.

Why do they have to 'make sense in the game as part of the setting or the plot of the adventure'? My point is there shouldn't have to be a justification... they can just be. If you don't like it, you can totally change it... I've changed NPC's to different races, genders as I desired for my own games... why does anyone care about this when any DM can make of the NPCs as they desire?

QuoteWe like to think so. ;)

Fair enough. I agree.

Quote from: fixable;1095074But who decides whether it is ham-fisted and pandering or not? Who decides if something is 'woke'? Why does including such assume a lack of welcoming to the game? It sounds kind of hypocritical to me. If you are open and welcoming, then why the resistance to non-binary or transgender characters? Where is the line drawn that it is done for 'virtual signaling'? What do you consider an 'acceptable' use of such characters?

When you remember the adventure from the Mentzer Red Box do you know for certain if Bargle or Aleena were binary or non-binary or transgender or black or white or asian?

Was it exclusionary for Frank not to say?

Quote from: rawma;1094758(snip)  I was commenting on a reference to "Greyhawk pretty much right out of the gate", and the original Greyhawk supplement has a lot of the default "he". (snip)

Don't forget, the default he/him was (and arguably still is) correct English grammar for centuries.

Quote from: Kiero;1094864Maybe it's a UK v US thing, but race really isn't an issue in gaming in Britain. Seriously, I've been doing this over 25 years, and no one cares that I'm brown. It's never been a thing. (snip)

I'm Australian by birth and have lived in Asia for 20+ years. Race has never been an issue for me or my friends: We're not Americans. Why should I feel guilty that a borderline failed state still can't come to terms with its own history?

rawma, keep in mind that you would've been shut down long ago on TBP. You can say your piece here. That's as inclusive as it needs to be.

Quote from: fixable;1095074Thanks, I'm going to respond with some honest questions:

I'm not sure what the definition of 'virtue signaling' is. Do you have a clear definition?

Virtue Signaling - the action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.

Virtue signaling is the conspicuous expression of moral values.

Quote from: fixable;1095074I see the term used here and elsewhere. Personally, I see it as a term mostly used to dismiss an opposing viewpoint.

It is. The conspicuous expression of moral values by people is usually done not to discuss a topic at hand, but to demonstrate the moral superiority of the poster in an attempt to ensure that they are higher up on the social ladder and thus their words have more importance than the rest who are involved in the discussion.

Quote from: fixable;1095074But who decides whether it is ham-fisted and pandering or not?

The reader.

Quote from: fixable;1095074Who decides if something is 'woke'?

Woke - The act of being very pretentious about how much you care about a social issue.

Again, the reader.

Quote from: fixable;1095074Why does including such assume a lack of welcoming to the game?

Why does not including such assume a lack of welcoming to the game?

Quote from: fixable;1095074It sounds kind of hypocritical to me.

So, you were not interested in a discussion and have already made up your mind?

Quote from: fixable;1095074If you are open and welcoming, then why the resistance to non-binary or transgender characters?

There is no resistance as long as the characters fit in with the setting of the game or the plot of an adventure.

Quote from: fixable;1095074Where is the line drawn that it is done for 'virtual signaling'?

When the inclusion of minority characters is used to advertise a game or a person's appearance of moral superiority.

Quote from: fixable;1095074What do you consider an 'acceptable' use of such characters?

Your question should be broader than that. ANY character included in the text should fit within the setting of the game or be essential to the plot of the adventure. Otherwise that character is extraneous. That character can be of any race, gender, species, or orientation - it is not just limited to non-binary or transgender.

Quote from: fixable;1095074Why do they have to 'make sense in the game as part of the setting or the plot of the adventure'?

Then why include them?

Quote from: fixable;1095074My point is there shouldn't have to be a justification... they can just be. If you don't like it, you can totally change it... I've changed NPC's to different races, genders as I desired for my own games... why does anyone care about this when any DM can make of the NPCs as they desire?

If you are including a character for no reason other than to include them, then aren't you just using them as a token? Isn't that even more insulting than just not including them at all?

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1095082I'm Australian by birth and have lived in Asia for 20+ years. Race has never been an issue for me or my friends: We're not Americans. Why should I feel guilty that a borderline failed state still can't come to terms with its own history?

Unfortunately, in Britain we are closer, culturally, to the US. What happens there is upstream of us, thus we now have our own "Black Lives Matters" movement, even though most of their charges are utterly irrelevant in Britain.

Our history on race is very different to the US, what with being the leading power in the fight against Transatlantic slavery.

Quote from: jeff37923;1095084Your question should be broader than that. ANY character included in the text should fit within the setting of the game or be essential to the plot of the adventure. Otherwise that character is extraneous. That character can be of any race, gender, species, or orientation - it is not just limited to non-binary or transgender.

Absolutely, shoe-horning in token characters to tick diversity boxes is the opposite of coherent settings.

I normally play non-white characters, but at the same time they are always appropriate to the setting. That hit a stumbling block in our long-running WFRP2e game, which is in an analogous 16th century Europe with the serials filed off. I could have come up with a contrived notion of how someone from a far off land ended up there, but since it wasn't even set in the Empire, that was too much work. As it was, being an Imperial (but specifically of peasant origin) was "minority" enough.

Quote from: moonsweeper;1094882I am stealing this one! :D

20$ in royalties LET'S GO BOIII.
JK use it as you wish.

Quote from: A5paperboy;109510120$ in royalties LET'S GO BOIII.
JK use it as you wish.

Here you go! :p


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Quote from: jeff37923;1095084VThe conspicuous expression of moral values by people is usually done not to discuss a topic at hand, but to demonstrate the moral superiority of the poster in an attempt to ensure that they are higher up on the social ladder and thus their words have more importance than the rest who are involved in the discussion.

Pretty much. There are two reasons why people publicly and conspicuously enforce group values:

1) To shame the transgressors into conforming to group norms.
2) To demonstrate that the person doing the enforcing is a trustworthy and upright member of the group.

The first has genuine utility to the group (presuming social conformity is sometimes a good thing). The second is pretty much a selfish act of status-seeking.

The problem is that social media has massively incentivized reason 2. Publicly broadcasting your own moral righteousness, and your ability to detect transgressions and willingness to denounce them, is one of the primary ways people today - especially those who are extremely online - have of gaining social status.

Anyone who cares about honesty and good-faith discussion should be highly suspicious of virtue-signalling. And of course this isn't just a progressive left thing. If in a discussion about municipal spending someone tries to suppress criticism of the fire department by saying they put their lives on the line for us every day, they're engaging in virtue-signalling.

Quote from: Haffrung;1095129Pretty much. There are two reasons why people publicly and conspicuously enforce group values:

1) To shame the transgressors into conforming to group norms.
2) To demonstrate that the person doing the enforcing is a trustworthy and upright member of the group.

...

The problem is that social media has massively incentivized reason 2. Publicly broadcasting your own moral righteousness, and your ability to detect transgressions and willingness to denounce them, is one of the primary ways people today - especially those who are extremely online - have of gaining social status.

2 is useful for individuals because it allows them to cement themselves as higher and more important in the chain of the group leadership. If you virtue signal enough and properly you'll get noticed and people will treat you like a leader.

Quote from: fixable;1095063My post doesn't mention anything about racism. My point is more directed towards the posts like this:


Gaydar is dumb and anyone who uses that term is a moron. The dumb post is here for reference: [url]https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40772-SJWs-are-Liars!-The-Hobby-Always-Welcomed-Everyone!&p=1093447&viewfull=1#post1093447[/url

Not only am I a moron. I also refuse to let the session around my kitchen table turn into a Pride festival. I am lord of my castle, my home is not somebody's LGBTQ demonstration. Within these walls my rules and my rules only apply. This is, in newspeak, my safespace from the outside madness. I'm heterosexual and all my friends are heterosexual. I don't have feminist cosplayers, genderfluids, furries or transpeople wearing muumuus in my gaming group. But I'm not a representative of the gaming industry, gamers or the people of this forum. I'm just me. And there are only two genders (male/female) in my world, the rest is delusion. Yes, I'm not only a moron, but an old-fashioned moron. Am I not entitled to be me? Must I bow before the bluehaired and woke Twitter army? Would it help to include people in the rpg hobby if I wore a garter belt and silk stockings? Or if I took a supporting shit for the rainbow-coloured LGBTQ cause in a gender neutral rest room?

I was born in 1972. When I grew up and started with roleplaying around 1984 there was no LGBTQ-movement in the Swedish rpg hobby. There certainly were gays and people were crossdressers/transvestites back then. But I don't think our parents would allow them to play with us 12 year olds. Times may have changed a whole lot but I haven't as much. Sometimes I wonder what's next on the woke agenda? Necrophiliacs in gaming ("Don't mind the rotten skull deepthroating my penis, guys. Hey, I brought cheetos and my character sheet.")? Pedo Pride Festivals? What's the next step, the next group to be included via angry Tweets?

As long as 'you can dance' to the Swedish national anthem -- "Dancing Queen," by ABBA -- you're a-ok by me. :p "... haa-ving the time of your liiiiife. oooh yeah..." :D

Quote from: Opaopajr;1095142As long as 'you can dance' to the Swedish national anthem -- "Dancing Queen," by ABBA -- you're a-ok by me. :p "... haa-ving the time of your liiiiife. oooh yeah..." :D

Lol, I don't know. Might feel risky. My favourite ABBA songs are these:

[video=youtube_share;wWQ7wrPyUe0]https://youtu.be/wWQ7wrPyUe0[/youtube]

and

[video=youtube_share;iUrzicaiRLU]https://youtu.be/iUrzicaiRLU[/youtube]

Any ABBA is good ABBA

Quote from: A5paperboy;1095151Any ABBA is good ABBA

I guess you're right. Btw when I watched the posted videos it struck me how ugly you could be as a guy and still make it in a pop band back then. If they ever invent a time machine, I will be the first in line to go back to those days. I might even be able to score in the 70's.

All those '70s music videos made me wonder how people watched them back in the heyday. I was of the VCR age and Mtv was just becoming a household name only a few years later. Yet these '70s videos look like super 8 stuff, ready for heavy tv or home reel rotation.

I wonder if the jet set gathered in homes to fire up the fondue, roll out the pink champagne & backgammon, and then for an afternoon delight sneak off to the projection room for some sweet accompanying music video BGM... :eek: :o

I am sure somewhere out there someone is finding this problematic... and exclusive. :D (SJW Mystery: "If you think what's being done is so bad, why do you want to be involved so badly?!")

Quote from: fixable;1095063Why do people 'flip out' if there are homosexual or trans-gender characters in the game? Again pointing to posts above (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40772-SJWs-are-Liars!-The-Hobby-Always-Welcomed-Everyone!&p=1093447&viewfull=1#post1093447). You are well meaning and reasonable people right?

If you're playing a game that's designed to explore your sexuality, then it makes perfect sense. If the game is supposed to explore, I dunno, say, heroic adventure, then a character's sexuality isn't included in the game. So yeah, it's just banner-waving. People get upset because they see that kind of empty virtue signaling bringing lots of harm to the world.

It's funny how "inclusive" people all presuppose that players are only inspired by playing characters of the same skin color, sexual preference, and genital makeup as the player themselves. Personally, I've played plenty of female characters over the years, and never once even stopped to think about my character's sexual preference or genital history ... because exploring sexuality isn't part of the games I play, and I don't want it to be.

Quote from: fixable;1095063Why do people 'flip out' if there are homosexual or trans-gender characters in the game? Again pointing to posts above (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40772-SJWs-are-Liars!-The-Hobby-Always-Welcomed-Everyone!&p=1093447&viewfull=1#post1093447). You are well meaning and reasonable people right?

Quote from: Zalman;1095161If you're playing a game that's designed to explore your sexuality, then it makes perfect sense. If the game is supposed to explore, I dunno, say, heroic adventure, then a character's sexuality isn't included in the game. So yeah, it's just banner-waving. People get upset because they see that kind of empty virtue signaling bringing lots of harm to the world.

This is utter nonsense. Sexuality (as opposed to the act of sex) is a part of everyday life -- and has  been included in most stories and games of heroic adventure. It's included just by having a shopkeeper and her husband, or a child's loving parents, or a possible romantic interest, and so forth. In D&D, there's sexuality in the earliest modules - from Steading of the Hill Giant Chief and Village of Hommlet and most other modules.

It's possible to play without it, by having characters be asexual beings only interested in gold and/or killing - but it's also normal for sexuality to come up, if just in things like a character's appreciative whistle at a barmaid, or similar. It's a regular part of background and immersion for me.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1095136I was born in 1972. When I grew up and started with roleplaying around 1984 there was no LGBTQ-movement in the Swedish rpg hobby. There certainly were gays and people were crossdressers/transvestites back then. But I don't think our parents would allow them to play with us 12 year olds. Times may have changed a whole lot but I haven't as much. Sometimes I wonder what's next on the woke agenda? Necrophiliacs in gaming ("Don't mind the rotten skull deepthroating my penis, guys. Hey, I brought cheetos and my character sheet.")? Pedo Pride Festivals? What's the next step, the next group to be included via angry Tweets?

I was born in 1970. For me, I learned about gay people from my Presbyterian church when I was younger than 12. A same-sex couple brought their adopted baby in for baptism, and I was confused about how two white men could have a black baby. I learned from that, though, and incorporated the knowledge and values in my life.

What I learned from my childhood was not to be a bigoted asshole. I raised my son with various straight and LGBT people around in games and events. Everyone were treated as regular people, as they are - with no talk about LGBT sex any more than about straight sex. When I talk to and get to know people, I find they're all just people with various different strengths and faults.

Earlier, you wrote:

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1093197I have no experience in playing rpgs with transsexuals or homosexuals. I have always played with friends that I know very well. I'm also a bit homophobic and would feel uncomfortable if a guy in a skirt or leather cap with studs wanted to join our gaming group, to be honest.

I'm glad you're up-front with your bigotry, but that doesn't mean I agree with it. I don't like people who are opposed to my family and friends. Just like I'm opposed to Aglondir's ethno-nationalism and other people's views.

Exactly how much gay-sex was going on in Hommlet? And at the Steading of the Hill-Giant?... or are you equating homesexuality<>heterosexuality as setting assumption in all RPGs?

Or is that a projection of cultural relativism?

Quote from: Zalman;1095161If you're playing a game that's designed to explore your sexuality, then it makes perfect sense. If the game is supposed to explore, I dunno, say, heroic adventure, then a character's sexuality isn't included in the game. So yeah, it's just banner-waving. People get upset because they see that kind of empty virtue signaling bringing lots of harm to the world.

It's funny how "inclusive" people all presuppose that players are only inspired by playing characters of the same skin color, sexual preference, and genital makeup as the player themselves. Personally, I've played plenty of female characters over the years, and never once even stopped to think about my character's sexual preference or genital history ... because exploring sexuality isn't part of the games I play, and I don't want it to be.

For myself, it's not that a character is gay, trans, or bacon spirited, but it's the activism. The incessant clamor for every character to be gay, for every charcter to be a woman, for every character to be trans, for every character to be black. All at the same time. Most people can tell when a character is sincere, in that they're a simulacrum of a real person, and when a character is fake, when they're a mouthpiece for the author's ideologies.
There's been an awful lot of the second type, and less of the first type.

Quote from: Gagarth;1094993Are all the self-aggrandizing, blowhard extremists white males by any chance? Also how far are you going back with this "People who formerly couldn't say anything now feel they can"  60's, 70s, 80's, 90s, 00s? and what exactly are they trying to  say apart from White Man Evil.

I didn't say White Man Evil. You did. And no, not all extremists are white males. You went there with that, too.

As for who feels they can speak up, and maybe be heard these days, then, yeah, I'd say it's groups that aren't white dudes, or straight. Women and minorities are assuming more positions of power in government. They’re bringing an agenda that reflects their backgrounds, which is quite different from mine. I’m not afraid of it, and I’m not going to get defensive when someone makes an obviously true assertion.

But I digress. My point was that that social change seeps into everything, including tabletop gaming. Then, as with all media, it seems, the loudest voices sound off with deranged bullshit. Some of these voices are those responding with knee jerk defensiveness against reasonable criticism. I do not think sits exclusive to one group, of course.

Beyond that, TTRPGs, which really have featured more than their share of social misfits, really aren't as easy to lump in when it comes to exclusion. This does not mean, though, that the hobby wasn’t historically monolithic, or nearly so. And on that, I only stated the obvious -- it was very much a white dude's hobby back in the day, and it's less obviously so now. I didn't say that was an issue. I did say, or imply, at least, that said perception may have kept folks away longer than it should've. I wouldn't know. I'm one of those white dudes (though I wouldn't say I was a social misfit, because i never felt like, or was treated like one).

Anyhoo, I'm not making any political statements here. These are benign conclusions that you seem to be to turning  into an agenda that I simply do not have, at least, not on this question/topic.

Quote from: sureshot;1094865Just because most of the player base in my neck of the woods in the mid-1980s was male does not mean a systematic campaign of exclusion was being waged by us to get other POC or female gamers from the hobby.

I agree with that. Doesn't mean said perception, at least the "weird" tag, did not have an adverse effect, though. But, again, agreed, it's hard to make a case for systemic, intentional gatekeeping. It was hard enough finding players sometimes, in mysmall ass town.

QuoteEither way it is way too easy to say "well it looks like it was just a white male hobby to me". Implying no effort was made to recruit POC, gays, trans and female gamers. You know what else many who spout that nonsense ignore. One can't force anyone to game with anybody. If I put an ad out to recruit people for a new campaign and only white (mostly straight) males answer. I'm not going to put my campaign on hold for 3-5 years to get other non-white non-straight members.

No reasonable person would expect you to do anything more than play the game you want to play, with whom you want to play it, because (and assuming) it's a private activity. I think we all screen to eliminate assholes, of course.  I also think it's fine to admit it's historically been a white dude hobby and still make the case against intentional barriers being erected by said white dudes, in general (the occasional asshole makes us all look bad, of course). The statements aren't mutually exclusive. Now, I think there may have been some "unintentional gatekeeping" by some of us weirdos due to certain aspects of weirdness that go beyond even nerd/geek norms.:-)

Quote from: cranebump;1095184I didn't say White Man Evil. You did. And no, not all extremists are white males. You went there with that, too.

As for who feels they can speak up, and maybe be heard these days, then, yeah, I'd say it's groups that aren't white dudes, or straight. Women and minorities are assuming more positions of power in government. They're bringing an agenda that reflects their backgrounds, which is quite different from mine. I'm not afraid of it, and I'm not going to get defensive when someone makes an obviously true assertion. But I digress. My point was that that social change seeps into everything, including tabletop gaming. Then, as with all media, it seems, the loudest voices sound off with deranged bullshit.

Beyond that, TTRPGs, which really have featured more than their share of social misfits, really aren't as easy to lump in when it comes to exclusion. This does not mean, though, that the hobby wasn't historically monolithic, or nearly so. And on that, I only stated the obvious -- it was very much a white dude's hobby back in the day, and it's less obviously so now. I didn't say that was an issue. I did say, or imply, at least, that said perception may have kept folks away longer than it should've. I wouldn't know. I'm one of those white dudes (though I wouldn't say I was a social misfit, because i never felt like, or was treated like one).

Anyhoo, I'm not making any political statements here. These are benign conclusions that you seem to be to turning  into an agenda that I simply do not have, at least, not on this question/topic.

What pray tell is the common background of Women or minorities?

All women share the same experiences, both positive and negative?

Do all members of minority X?

Nope, and this shows the fail and hypocrisy of the 'diversity' advocates, they ARE saying that you need more people from group X BECAUSE of their background.

What does the son of a black millionaire have in common with the poor black from the ghetto? Skin color and that's it.

As for the huwhite dudes hobby talking point, women didn't want to get on board because it was a geek's hobby, and black folks to date don't want to get on board because it's doing white stuff. I'm paraphrasing but it's their take, by playing TTRPGs you are 'acting' white and being a traitor to your race.

To sum it up, if group X wanted/wants to participate they were never chased away by the vast majority of those already participating. So the talking point is shit and used only to gain control (or attempt to) by the ideological zealots.

Back in the day the religious right didn't want to participate, and tried to prevent us all from doing so. Then they made their own Christian RPGs, right now the intersectionality cult is busy doing that which the religious failed to.

Quote from: jhkim;1095164This is utter nonsense. Sexuality (as opposed to the act of sex) is a part of everyday life -- and has  been included in most stories and games of heroic adventure. It's included just by having a shopkeeper and her husband, or a child's loving parents, or a possible romantic interest, and so forth. In D&D, there's sexuality in the earliest modules - from Steading of the Hill Giant Chief and Village of Hommlet and most other modules.

It's possible to play without it, by having characters be asexual beings only interested in gold and/or killing - but it's also normal for sexuality to come up, if just in things like a character's appreciative whistle at a barmaid, or similar. It's a regular part of background and immersion for me.

I don't know about your games, but the sexual orientation of a player or a character has only come up once in my 38 years of actually playing tabletop RPGs because it is irrelevant to the majority of play. Most people don't give a fuck if the tavern keeper is gay just as long as he brings your character an ale when your character pays for one. Just like in Real Life, people don't go strutting around introducing themselves with their sexual orientation or gender because A) most people don't care and B) that's pretty fuckin' weird to do when you are buying a cheeseburger.

Quote from: jhkim;1095164I was born in 1970. For me, I learned about gay people from my Presbyterian church when I was younger than 12. A same-sex couple brought their adopted baby in for baptism, and I was confused about how two white men could have a black baby. I learned from that, though, and incorporated the knowledge and values in my life.

What I learned from my childhood was not to be a bigoted asshole. I raised my son with various straight and LGBT people around in games and events. Everyone were treated as regular people, as they are - with no talk about LGBT sex any more than about straight sex. When I talk to and get to know people, I find they're all just people with various different strengths and faults.

I'm glad you're up-front with your bigotry, but that doesn't mean I agree with it. I don't like people who are opposed to my family and friends. Just like I'm opposed to Aglondir's ethno-nationalism and other people's views.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is a textbook example of virtue signalling.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1095154All those '70s music videos made me wonder how people watched them back in the heyday. I was of the VCR age and Mtv was just becoming a household name only a few years later. Yet these '70s videos look like super 8 stuff, ready for heavy tv or home reel rotation.

I wonder if the jet set gathered in homes to fire up the fondue, roll out the pink champagne & backgammon, and then for an afternoon delight sneak off to the projection room for some sweet accompanying music video BGM... :eek: :o

I am sure somewhere out there someone is finding this problematic... and exclusive. :D (SJW Mystery: "If you think what's being done is so bad, why do you want to be involved so badly?!")

That is a great question really. How did people watch the ABBA videos before Super Channel, MTV and similar channels? I'm not familiar with American music channel history. We only had two TV-channels here back then, lol.

Quote from: jeff37923;1095084Virtue Signaling - the action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.

I kind of like that definition, I think it's pretty serviceable. In part because it is concise, and in part because it doesn't presuppose the content of the signal. That will depend on the venue and the audience.

So for instance, in a "socjus" forum, virtue signalling may consist in showing the signaller is more "woke" than the run-of-the-mill wokesters. While in a neo-Nazi forum it will consist in being more hardcore Nazi than the rest. Makes sense to me. Virtue-signalling either way.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1095136Not only am I a moron. I also refuse to let the session around my kitchen table turn into a Pride festival. I am lord of my castle, my home is not somebody's LGBTQ demonstration. Within these walls my rules and my rules only apply. This is, in newspeak, my safespace from the outside madness. I'm heterosexual and all my friends are heterosexual. I don't have feminist cosplayers, genderfluids, furries or transpeople wearing muumuus in my gaming group. But I'm not a representative of the gaming industry, gamers or the people of this forum. I'm just me. And there are only two genders (male/female) in my world, the rest is delusion. Yes, I'm not only a moron, but an old-fashioned moron. Am I not entitled to be me? Must I bow before the bluehaired and woke Twitter army? Would it help to include people in the rpg hobby if I wore a garter belt and silk stockings? Or if I took a supporting shit for the rainbow-coloured LGBTQ cause in a gender neutral rest room?

I was born in 1972. When I grew up and started with roleplaying around 1984 there was no LGBTQ-movement in the Swedish rpg hobby. There certainly were gays and people were crossdressers/transvestites back then. But I don't think our parents would allow them to play with us 12 year olds. Times may have changed a whole lot but I haven't as much. Sometimes I wonder what's next on the woke agenda? Necrophiliacs in gaming ("Don't mind the rotten skull deepthroating my penis, guys. Hey, I brought cheetos and my character sheet.")? Pedo Pride Festivals? What's the next step, the next group to be included via angry Tweets?

You know what? I can support this stance. Why? Because this is the stance of a Viking Hat DM who is unequivocally stating that in his personal games in his personal space, he does not want any LGBTQ things going on. I disagree with his opinion, but part of freedom is allowing space for people with whom you disagree. He isn't trying to rally people against LGBTQ outside of his home, he is only focused on what happens to his game group at his kitchen table in his home.

Guess what, there isn't a damn thing anybody can do about it either.

Except disagree.

Quote from: ZalmanIf you're playing a game that's designed to explore your sexuality, then it makes perfect sense. If the game is supposed to explore, I dunno, say, heroic adventure, then a character's sexuality isn't included in the game. So yeah, it's just banner-waving. People get upset because they see that kind of empty virtue signaling bringing lots of harm to the world.

Quote from: jhkimThis is utter nonsense. Sexuality (as opposed to the act of sex) is a part of everyday life -- and has been included in most stories and games of heroic adventure. It's included just by having a shopkeeper and her husband, or a child's loving parents, or a possible romantic interest, and so forth. In D&D, there's sexuality in the earliest modules - from Steading of the Hill Giant Chief and Village of Hommlet and most other modules.

Quote from: tenbones;1095181Exactly how much gay-sex was going on in Hommlet? And at the Steading of the Hill-Giant?... or are you equating homesexuality<>heterosexuality as setting assumption in all RPGs?

Or is that a projection of cultural relativism?

tenbones - I'm including the quotes above to make clear again. Neither Zalman's post nor mine make reference to specifically homosexuality. The point is that modules and play commonly include heterosexuality.

Quote from: jeff37923;1095196I don't know about your games, but the sexual orientation of a player or a character has only come up once in my 38 years of actually playing tabletop RPGs because it is irrelevant to the majority of play. Most people don't give a fuck if the tavern keeper is gay just as long as he brings your character an ale when your character pays for one. Just like in Real Life, people don't go strutting around introducing themselves with their sexual orientation or gender because A) most people don't care and B) that's pretty fuckin' weird to do when you are buying a cheeseburger.

You're welcome to play however you like. I also find that sexual orientation or gender usually aren't important - but my games usually have a fair amount of detail that isn't immediately relevant. For example, I might include bits of color like "The bartender is a large man with dark black hair and a frequent scowl" or "The bartender is very protective of his shy wife Serla, who comes out to clean the tables every so often". These sorts of details are typically pure color bits, but it will occasionally come up. No one seems to object to my mentioning the bartender's hair color, say, or that he's a man rather than a woman.

Quote from: jhkim;1095164I was born in 1970. For me, I learned about gay people from my Presbyterian church when I was younger than 12. A same-sex couple brought their adopted baby in for baptism, and I was confused about how two white men could have a black baby. I learned from that, though, and incorporated the knowledge and values in my life.

What I learned from my childhood was not to be a bigoted asshole. I raised my son with various straight and LGBT people around in games and events. Everyone were treated as regular people, as they are - with no talk about LGBT sex any more than about straight sex. When I talk to and get to know people, I find they're all just people with various different strengths and faults.

Earlier, you wrote:

I'm glad you're up-front with your bigotry, but that doesn't mean I agree with it. I don't like people who are opposed to my family and friends. Just like I'm opposed to Aglondir's ethno-nationalism and other people's views.

I'm an honest guy. I'm slightly homophobic. Well, phobic is really the wrong word but it's the only one I know. I don't have any fear of gay men. I fear sharks, being eaten alive and big spiders. And no, I don't have a problem with gay men because I'm secretly longing for men sexually. To make you happy I can announce that I have nothing against lesbians, really. I enjoy them very much on the internet. And when it comes to the homosexual men it's not all of them either, but the ones who act feminine, those with limp hanging wrists, those who make handsignals like "talk to the hand" and shake their heads in a girly fashion. Those are the ones that irk me in the weirdest way. If a gay man acts more butch and maybe has a Tom Selleck moustache and a fading sailor tattoo, well...I wouldn't worry then. I could play rpgs with Rob Halford, Richard Chamberlain or Udo Dirkschneider any day without feeling antsy.

At least we know where we stand now, don't we? My honesty is not meant to hurt any gay people on this forum. And I have redeeming qualities too, you know? But I usually keep my warm and fuzzy feelings safe and secure in my heart-shaped box (no, not the Nirvana kind. I hate Nirvana) - a box that I only open for those that reciprocate. For the rest of the world I mostly serve up my spit in shot glasses.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1095197That is a great question really. How did people watch the ABBA videos before Super Channel, MTV and similar channels? I'm not familiar with American music channel history. We only had two TV-channels here back then, lol.

It is a good question, and one that may deserve a better answer than my failing memory can provide, but I just don't remember any videos being a thing in the 70s when ABBA was hot. Except maybe toward the very end of the 70s when I think you're already entering the MTV era. In the 70s, music outside of live concerts was heard not seen. Except when bands produced feature films, which are kind of different. Or Britain's TOTP, which laid the groundwork for music videos but were mostly just studio footage of the band, and not widely circulated if you weren't able to watch in the UK

Quote from: jeff37923;1095200You know what? I can support this stance. Why? Because this is the stance of a Viking Hat DM who is unequivocally stating that in his personal games in his personal space, he does not want any LGBTQ things going on. I disagree with his opinion, but part of freedom is allowing space for people with whom you disagree. He isn't trying to rally people against LGBTQ outside of his home, he is only focused on what happens to his game group at his kitchen table in his home.

Guess what, there isn't a damn thing anybody can do about it either.

Except disagree.

That is true. Everything I said only applies to my own home and my own gaming sessions. If I would have joined another group, outside my friendzone, I would accept other constellations, gaming with whatever gender there might be. I would just focus on the game.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1095189What pray tell is the common background of Women or minorities?

All women share the same experiences, both positive and negative?

Do all members of minority X?

Nope, and this shows the fail and hypocrisy of the 'diversity' advocates, they ARE saying that you need more people from group X BECAUSE of their background.

What does the son of a black millionaire have in common with the poor black from the ghetto? Skin color and that's it.

As for the huwhite dudes hobby talking point, women didn't want to get on board because it was a geek's hobby, and black folks to date don't want to get on board because it's doing white stuff. I'm paraphrasing but it's their take, by playing TTRPGs you are 'acting' white and being a traitor to your race.

To sum it up, if group X wanted/wants to participate they were never chased away by the vast majority of those already participating. So the talking point is shit and used only to gain control (or attempt to) by the ideological zealots.

Back in the day the religious right didn't want to participate, and tried to prevent us all from doing so. Then they made their own Christian RPGs, right now the intersectionality cult is busy doing that which the religious failed to.

Just to be clear, I already said I didn't think white dudes were actively gatekeeping the hobby. I just said it's a white dude's game (but less so these days). I didn't even say that was a bad thing. But it is a thing.

Its interesting you assert that people's backgrounds are too diverse to be meaningful, then, at the same time, assert that women and blacks have respective common reasons for not gaming. Which is it? Nothing in common, or a general conspiracy? And I'm interested to know where you're hearing the "traitor to the race" thing because that, forgive me, just sounds like made up bullshit.

On the whole, I'd agree that It's reasonable to say that each person's experiences are different. It's unreasonable, however, to deny that certain cultures have had a similar history, which can lead to some commonalities in perspective that might be worth my while to know. In that, I think cosmetics can lead to a more shared experience that you'd think. I say this after reading "Between the World and Me," "The Fire Next Time," "Invisible Man," "The Autobiography of Malcolm X," and various poetry by black authors. There's a shared culture there that's certainly different from mine. I cannot, unfortunately vouch for having the experience manifest at my table, but I can say my own understanding is enriched by the readings.

I can’t say I’ve ever discussed race with my black friends, none of whom play D&D.  If we did play together, I feel like we’re really not there for a history/culture lesson. I mean, I'm just looking for some good people to game with. We can talk that other stuff outside the monster bashing. I think we're on the same page here, at least. The difference is I'm not going to slam diversity advocates because I know some populations have been shut out of much more important enterprises than stupid elf games. I don't see hypocrisy in their intention, but rather misplaced priorities. A bunch of bearded old grogs isn't doing anything other than wasting their own damned time.

P.S. I do indeed recall when members of the Religious Right (and others) attempting to make everyone stop gaming (which drove up sales, fittingly). Same thing happened with comics when I was a kid. And that's how stacks of what would now be vintage 1970s comics got tossed into a dumpster when I was 12.

Oh, and I would also like to state that I would have no problems with my friends making gay PCs if they want. Hell, when we were 12-13 years old, one of my friends made a bisexual barbarian (like a bi Conan clone, quite inclusive) who rode on an elephant. He was so strong that he easily manhandled the other PCs and forced himself upon them whenever he wished. Yes, there were very adult themes that were played out in my friend's basement. The kind of stuff that would make that sordid UK Games Expo GM cream his track pants.

Addition: Now that we are older, getting grey and grumpy, we are fewer in my group and we have slightly more varied tones to our gaming sessions. The guy who played the bisexual barbarian back in 1984 is dead and gone (R.I.P. Johan). But I want to state that NPCs of varied sexual orientations exist in our gaming sessions, depending on the game/era, etc.

But we usually play an old Swedish fantasy game and Call of Cthulhu (Gaslight and 1920s setting mostly) so there aren't really any modern LGBTQ-people that fit in the context.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1095204At least we know where we stand now, don't we? My honesty is not meant to hurt any gay people on this forum. And I have redeeming qualities too, you know? But I usually keep my warm and fuzzy feelings safe and secure in my heart-shaped box (no, not the Nirvana kind. I hate Nirvana) - a box that I only open for those that reciprocate. For the rest of the world I mostly serve up my spit in shot glasses.

Sure, and you've got a right to behave the way you want, particularly in your own home. I appreciate this as a free speech forum where I can talk to (Alathon) about his ethno-nationalism or you about your discomfort with LGBT people.

But I don't think either of those is a good thing, and I'd prefer it if those attitudes didn't exist. My family and friends who are LGBT have had to deal with a lot of crap because of attitudes like this. Particularly when he was younger, I wouldn't want my son being exposed to it, as I consider it a sort or bigotry.

EDITED TO CORRECT: Initially, I accidentally wrote "Aglondir" instead of "Alathon" as the ethno-nationalist. That was a complete mistake in naming. Alathon had described himself as subscribing to a version of ethno-nationalism, so I think I am correct there. I just inexcusably slipped up in the mildly similar name.

Quote from: jhkim;1095203tenbones - I'm including the quotes above to make clear again. Neither Zalman's post nor mine make reference to specifically homosexuality. The point is that modules and play commonly include heterosexuality.



You're welcome to play however you like. I also find that sexual orientation or gender usually aren't important - but my games usually have a fair amount of detail that isn't immediately relevant. For example, I might include bits of color like "The bartender is a large man with dark black hair and a frequent scowl" or "The bartender is very protective of his shy wife Serla, who comes out to clean the tables every so often". These sorts of details are typically pure color bits, but it will occasionally come up. No one seems to object to my mentioning the bartender's hair color, say, or that he's a man rather than a woman.

"The bartender is a large man with dark black hair and a frequent scowl who is gay"

"The bartender is very protective of his shy wife Serla who is a man because the bartender is gay, who comes out to clean the tables every so often"

The physical description of an NPC is what player characters normally perceive. How do you determine sexual orientation or gender unless you ask (or if the NPC even has one).

How do you include a bit of color about a NPCs sexuality if no sexual or romantic role-playing interaction ever comes up? Most people do not play their games focused on character actions in which the subject matter would naturally come up. Every NPC that the Player Characters interact with could be gay or bi or trans or sexually identify as an attack helicopter and the players would never know unless there was in character game action in which that becomes significant.

The main problem with "inclusion" is that so often the people preaching it are coming directly from Alinksy's rule book, which states in no uncertain terms that the game is first to be noticed, then included, then get control, then exclude everyone else.
 
That is, a person honestly concerned about inclusion in a game is probably going to do something about it--say, run a game and invite whatever people you want to invite.  Not only is there absolutely nothing wrong with that, it's the only real way to include anyone, in anything, ever.  For one thing, it's deeply personal, and thus likely to work, given those honest intentions.  (And if the intentions aren't honest, then that will get found out pretty soon and kill the thing before it does too much harm.)  

When "inclusion" is code for "I want to talk about inclusion so that I can get control of who gets included/excluded and then proceed to exclude the ones I want"--that's the problem.  The virtue signalers have the track record AND the creepy vibe that it is their game.   Well, that and the rabid lying about what they are doing, also from Alinksy's book, and which brings us full circle to the subject of the thread.

Oh, by the way, I guarantee I've introduced more people, including women and racial minorities, to the hobby than 99% of the "inclusion" freaks.  And I did it one and two people at a time by running a game that sounded interesting to them, and inviting them because they were interested, not caring what their chromosomes or pigments were.

Quote from: jhkim;1095215Sure, and you've got a right to behave the way you want, particularly in your own home. I appreciate this as a free speech forum where I can talk to Aglondir about his ethno-nationalism or you about your discomfort with LGBT people.

But I don't think either of those is a good thing, and I'd prefer it if those attitudes didn't exist. My family and friends who are LGBT have had to deal with a lot of crap because of attitudes like this. Particularly when he was younger, I wouldn't want my son being exposed to it, as I consider it a sort or bigotry.

Well, I understand what you mean and I also agree that it's not a good quality to have. But I don't walk about with a sign that say "God hates fxxs" (well, I'm atheist) or scream and spit at transgender people. It's all internal and quite calm, all in orderly fashion, the Swedish way. There are worse things in this world than a bit of my inner vitriol. I just don't want somebody flaunting their sexual identities/preferences around my gaming table. If it makes things better, I was revolted the moment when one of my friends and his girlfriend mentioned having sex the entire night before our session. It makes me physically sick to hear about other people's sex lives. Yes, I'm quite sensitive. So there you go - every person has a delicate flower with tiny pink petals hidden deep inside. That goes for serial killers, Adolf Hitler, Stalin, Vlad Tepes, Attila and Genghis Khan too.

Quote from: Haffrung;1095129Pretty much. There are two reasons why people publicly and conspicuously enforce group values:

1) To shame the transgressors into conforming to group norms.
2) To demonstrate that the person doing the enforcing is a trustworthy and upright member of the group.

There is also a 3rd one. To push an agenda with all too often no real investment in the agenda other than to use it in some monetization scheme or to tear down the competition. And that second one I have seen used quite a bit. Sometimes both together even.

Usually this is when someone will virtue signal while at the same time denouncing someone else. The odds of it being a marketing ploy jump exponentially if the signaller and/or the target are a publisher/company of some sort or just working in the industry. And this is not a new thing. I saw it way too much in the 90s with viscous artist and indie comic wars. But its reared its ugly head in gaming too from video games to RPGs.

Quote from: jhkim;1095215Sure, and you've got a right to behave the way you want, particularly in your own home. I appreciate this as a free speech forum where I can talk to Aglondir about his ethno-nationalism or you about your discomfort with LGBT people.

But I don't think either of those is a good thing, and I'd prefer it if those attitudes didn't exist. My family and friends who are LGBT have had to deal with a lot of crap because of attitudes like this. Particularly when he was younger, I wouldn't want my son being exposed to it, as I consider it a sort or bigotry.

I'm not an ethno-nationalist. I do believe in Western civilization (I.e. reason, scientific inquiry, the innate freedom of humanity, pizza, etc.) and defend it from the current onslaught of SJW attacks. But I don't believe that one race or nation is innately superior or inferior to any other. I do think that some nations do certain things better than others.

Were you thinking of someone else, or am I an ethno-nationalist and just don't realize it?

Quote from: Opaopajr;1095154All those '70s music videos made me wonder how people watched them back in the heyday.

Off topic: Various TV stations would have a "music video" hour, or more late night. One of our locals way back had a thing for old RKO type movie serieals. Spy Smasher, Radar Men from the Moon, Flash Gordon, and so on.

Thanks for the answers about the 1970s music videos everbody! I always wondered who the audience were for those cool music videos like 'Bohemian Rhapsody', 'Pressure', etc. And in fact I find the idea of local channel late night programming discretion a rather gameable tidbit, for everything from White Wolf Changeling inspiration to Vampire encoded warnings. :)

"When UHF channel 56 repeats late night broadcasts of 'The Wolf-Man' we are having a Lupine attack, 'Dancing Queen' a Changeling attack. Seek shelter and report to the Sheriff when you can by week's end." :D

-------------------

As for my games, I am quite open and happy to have a diverse cast of NPCs if my demographics warrant it. :) That said, Jeff's example above is good to illustrate how NOT to incorporate such knowledge naturally. And sadly too many adventure modules seem to go this lazy route to give contextually extraneous concrete detail.

I prefer letting the personality, mannerisms, and dialogue chatter to SHOW rather than TELL any non-player character nuance beyond the immediate exchange. Then it is up to the players to pursue social exploration of these as they see fit. If they are laser focused on the adventure at hand, and miss out on some helpful (but not mission critical) insightful clues, such is life. But it is there for my interest in greater setting depth -- like garnishes and condiments at a buffet. :p

If I were to redo the above examples, I would put such tidbits under "personality:", "flavor:", or "private:" sub-headings of the NPC write-up. I might even offer extra side-quests, XP, or in-game benefits (knowledge, rumors, favors, etc.) if players tap into them them. But I would not make it a run-on sentence of TMI (too much information); I don't want to make it seem all NPCs are at a bizarre confessional...

Quote from: Opaopajr;1095142As long as 'you can dance' to the Swedish national anthem -- "Dancing Queen," by ABBA -- you're a-ok by me. :p "... haa-ving the time of your liiiiife. oooh yeah..." :D

I see we've found another hate criminal.

The Gulag is gonna be full very soon...

Quote from: Opaopajr;1095233As for my games, I am quite open and happy to have a diverse cast of NPCs if my demographics warrant it. :) That said, Jeff's example above is good to illustrate how NOT to incorporate such knowledge naturally. And sadly too many adventure modules seem to go this lazy route to give contextually extraneous concrete detail.

I prefer letting the personality, mannerisms, and dialogue chatter to SHOW rather than TELL any non-player character nuance beyond the immediate exchange. Then it is up to the players to pursue social exploration of these as they see fit. If they are laser focused on the adventure at hand, and miss out on some helpful (but not mission critical) insightful clues, such is life. But it is there for my interest in greater setting depth -- like garnishes and condiments at a buffet. :p

If I were to redo the above examples, I would put such tidbits under "personality:", "flavor:", or "private:" sub-headings of the NPC write-up. I might even offer extra side-quests, XP, or in-game benefits (knowledge, rumors, favors, etc.) if players tap into them them. But I would not make it a run-on sentence of TMI (too much information); I don't want to make it seem all NPCs are at a bizarre confessional...

Bolding mine, because I want to make a side note here. If you are using "show, don't tell", please don't be crass about it and go for the ridiculous stereotypes. Gay characters will not all be flamboyant nellie queens. Lesbian characters will not all be overmuscled women who act like dudebros nor will they all be beautiful hypersexual swimsuit models who like to lure men into dark alleys and kill them. Same goes for racial stereotypes. When the ridiculous stereotypes start being used then the character likely destroys the immersion in the game because it then becomes a parody.

For example, lets go back to the gay bartender and his partner the server. To tip off the players that they are a gay couple, have the characters notice that when the server picks up four mugs of ale from the bartender, he gives the bartender a quick kiss. Obvious (for the perceptive) and subtle while maintaining the integrity of the characters believability because it wasn't shoe-horned in and forced or made a parody.

There is a way to do this without being a ham-fisted and turning the minority character into a token.

Quote from: cranebump;1095210Just to be clear, I already said I didn't think white dudes were actively gatekeeping the hobby. I just said it's a white dude's game (but less so these days). I didn't even say that was a bad thing. But it is a thing.

Its interesting you assert that people's backgrounds are too diverse to be meaningful, then, at the same time, assert that women and blacks have respective common reasons for not gaming. Which is it? Nothing in common, or a general conspiracy? And I'm interested to know where you're hearing the "traitor to the race" thing because that, forgive me, just sounds like made up bullshit.

On the whole, I'd agree that It's reasonable to say that each person's experiences are different. It's unreasonable, however, to deny that certain cultures have had a similar history, which can lead to some commonalities in perspective that might be worth my while to know. In that, I think cosmetics can lead to a more shared experience that you'd think. I say this after reading "Between the World and Me," "The Fire Next Time," "Invisible Man," "The Autobiography of Malcolm X," and various poetry by black authors. There's a shared culture there that's certainly different from mine. I cannot, unfortunately vouch for having the experience manifest at my table, but I can say my own understanding is enriched by the readings.

I can't say I've ever discussed race with my black friends, none of whom play D&D.  If we did play together, I feel like we're really not there for a history/culture lesson. I mean, I'm just looking for some good people to game with. We can talk that other stuff outside the monster bashing. I think we're on the same page here, at least. The difference is I'm not going to slam diversity advocates because I know some populations have been shut out of much more important enterprises than stupid elf games. I don't see hypocrisy in their intention, but rather misplaced priorities. A bunch of bearded old grogs isn't doing anything other than wasting their own damned time.

P.S. I do indeed recall when members of the Religious Right (and others) attempting to make everyone stop gaming (which drove up sales, fittingly). Same thing happened with comics when I was a kid. And that's how stacks of what would now be vintage 1970s comics got tossed into a dumpster when I was 12.

Let me introduce you to the radical concept that women and men like different things, there were women in the hobby, the geek ones, most women weren't interested in it. What is similar in the experience of those two groups?

Let me introduce you to the concept of class, people that grew on the ghetto (or the barrio in my case) didn't have the same experiences than the rich ones, even if they share a skin color. Different tastes in music, food, and different interests in entertainment too.

Let me introduce you to the concept of peer pressure (very important the younger you are and in the ghetto/barrio) Humans are tribal, women even more so, for a woman being rejected by her peers is worst than for a man. This is evolutionary, so even if they wanted they didn't because of peer pressure.

Now selecting on the basis of sex, sexuality or race, how is that ensuring me I get the "true" experience of group X? Geeks have more in common with other geeks regardless of their sex, sexuality or race.

Now please goon and keep making the race realist argument, I find it funny.

Quote from: BronzeDragon;1095240I see we've found another hate criminal.

The Gulag is gonna be full very soon...

Busting a nut in a stripper while listening to ABBA's Waterloo is a transcendental experience!  :D

Quote from: jeff37923;1095244Busting a nut in a stripper while listening to ABBA's Waterloo is a transcendental experience!  :D

I'm seriously considering Spinachcat's idea of cooking and eating you. I hope you like pepper and onions.

Anyway, as to the OP...who the hell cares? My first group was a bunch of 12-year-olds in a military base, and here in Brazil that means every possible ethnicity you can imagine. No idea if any of them were/would be gay, and frankly nobody cared.

I moved cities a total of 5 times before I was 18, and three more times after that, which means I got to live in almost every region of my country for at least a couple of years, and met all sorts of people and gamed with every one that wanted to game. On a few of the groups there were girls, but mostly it was men, because doing nerdy things like playing RPGs was seen by most people as retarded or socially beneath them, and most girls would not be caught dead mingling with the nerds. As for sexuality, nobody cared. Nobody asked, nobody volunteered the information and even when it was obvious someone was gay, nobody made an issue of it, because it wasn't an issue.

Never gamed with a transexual because, honestly, they are super fucking rare. And most of the ones that do exist are prostitutes or hairdressers, not generally groups of people interested in nerdy gaming. If one somehow got to know our group of friends and showed interest in gaming, nobody would mind, because nobody gives a shit.

That's it, essentially.

Quote from: jhkim;1095215But I don't think either of those is a good thing, and I'd prefer it if those attitudes didn't exist. My family and friends who are LGBT have had to deal with a lot of crap because of attitudes like this. Particularly when he was younger, I wouldn't want my son being exposed to it, as I consider it a sort or bigotry.

I suspect what the issue today - is not yours particularly, but those that are in the politically active LGBT/SJW/"allied" crowd is the fact that they want to passive-aggressively *force* people to accept their behavior as "normal" when in fact, it's not. By definition. It's an outlier.

This doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated well as humans. But it flies in the face of cultural values that simply can't sustain pretending that the way Americans in, say in San Francisco and LA celebrate "Gay Pride" in their parades, where it's highly sexual in nature - should be somehow embraced by those that don't practice such things. I would no more support a sexual parade *in general* as some expression of pride, if only for the sake of not wanting to subject my kids to it (well my kids are grown now - but you get the idea.)

How invested are we *supposed* to be, to your satisfaction of not "preferring" those attitudes to exist? Where exactly is that line to be drawn where YOU say "Yeah, well whatever?". And should gays likewise be exuberant about Heterosexuality too? If not, why not?

Or is this about some passive-aggressive impulse about "revenge" masquerading as "justice"? Smells like it.

Quote from: Kiero;1095100Unfortunately, in Britain we are closer, culturally, to the US. What happens there is upstream of us, thus we now have our own "Black Lives Matters" movement, even though most of their charges are utterly irrelevant in Britain.

Our history on race is very different to the US, what with being the leading power in the fight against Transatlantic slavery. (snip)

Unsurprisingly, the British approached the abolition of slavery in a civilised manner, marshalling institutions and building support for the subsequent abolition via act of parliament for this most heinous crime against humanity.

By contrast, the Americans approached the issue with violence. A war was fought over a tax dispute (much like the rebellion against legitimate British rule in the prior century) and, in order to destroy the economy of the vanquished, slavery was simply declared ended. No institutions were involved. There was no hint that the war involved the issue of slavery. It was simply ended overnight without a framework being put in place to ensure that this enjoyed popular support etc....

The net result? The slavery issue, in reality, took another century to resolve. Slavery might not have existed but the ugly holdovers of that time continued well into the late 20th century. Heck, we're still seeing the matter of reparations being discussed by the economic vandals who think that debasing a currency is sound economic policy.

TL;DR: The USA is a third world country pretending to be first world. That means weird stuff happens on a regular basis that makes no sense to those of us who enjoy the fruits of civilisation.

Quote from: tenbones;1095248I suspect what the issue today - is not yours particularly, but those that are in the politically active LGBT/SJW/"allied" crowd is the fact that they want to passive-aggressively *force* people to accept their behavior as "normal" when in fact, it's not. By definition. It's an outlier.

This doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated well as humans. But it flies in the face of cultural values that simply can't sustain pretending that the way Americans in, say in San Francisco and LA celebrate "Gay Pride" in their parades, where it's highly sexual in nature - should be somehow embraced by those that don't practice such things. I would no more support a sexual parade *in general* as some expression of pride, if only for the sake of not wanting to subject my kids to it (well my kids are grown now - but you get the idea.)

How invested are we *supposed* to be, to your satisfaction of not "preferring" those attitudes to exist? Where exactly is that line to be drawn where YOU say "Yeah, well whatever?". And should gays likewise be exuberant about Heterosexuality too? If not, why not?

Or is this about some passive-aggressive impulse about "revenge" masquerading as "justice"? Smells like it.

I cannot control how someone chooses to live his or her life, or what he or she believes in. Nor would I want to. However, the normalisation of these "outlying" behaviours, which have traditionally been held to be mental illnesses rather than bad biological wiring, has major effects for the most vulnerable in society - children. It's child abuse with horrible ramifications for later in life when they wake up and realise they've been deluded.

It's a crime that approaches paedophilia in terms of damage inflicted on the most vulnerable in our societies and should be treated as such. (And, no, I don't mean, "covered up so powerful people don't get thrown in jail.")

But the LBTQABCDEFGHIJKLM community should be treated with kindness because, ultimately, they're people and people should be treated with kindness. Unless, of course, their behaviour threatens the physical or mental health of my children, family, and/or friends. And, yes, that means I would game with them, just as I game with people whose political or economic views are opposed to mine.

Quote from: Aglondir;1095225Were you thinking of someone else, or am I an ethno-nationalist and just don't realize it?

My apologies, Aglondir. That was a name slip-up on my part. I meant to say Alathon, who described himself as an ethno-nationalist.

I'll go back and edit that to correct my mistake.

Quote from: cranebump;1095184I didn't say White Man Evil. You did. And no, not all extremists are white males. You went there with that, too.

As for who feels they can speak up, and maybe be heard these days, then, yeah, I'd say it's groups that aren't white dudes, or straight. Women and minorities are assuming more positions of power in government. They're bringing an agenda that reflects their backgrounds, which is quite different from mine. I'm not afraid of it, and I'm not going to get defensive when someone makes an obviously true assertion.
.

Pick a date when these groups you speak of  started having a voice then.  Do really think that when the quotas get to the levels that poc activists and their SJW allies (like you)  find acceptable do really think the White Man Evil mantra will stop?  

And yet again a SJW ignores the idea that someone from a non white community  is put off from an activity because of the hatred generated against whites by people within in the community. You should get that type of blindness declared a disability and make some money from it.

Quote from: Gagarth;1095287Pick a date when this started happening then.  Do really think that when the quotas get to the levels that poc activists and their SJW allies like you  find acceptable do really think the White Man Evil mantra will stop?

Please allow me to answer that: No, they won't. You know that, I know that, cranebump knows it. SJWs are like kids who weren't disciplined immediately for bad behavior. Now, we're dealing with habits we should've never tolerated in the first place. They mistook tolerance as weakness and the irony is that if we weren't tolerant and accepting, SJWs and those they champion would never have been able to have a voice at all.

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1095252Unsurprisingly, the British approached the abolition of slavery in a civilised manner, marshalling institutions and building support for the subsequent abolition via act of parliament for this most heinous crime against humanity.
.

There was no large population of ex-slaves within British Isles when slavery  was abolished and were the ex-slaves in the Caribbean in any better a position that the slaves ex-Confederate States?  Your  comparison is wrong .

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1095252By contrast, the Americans approached the issue with violence. A war was fought over a tax dispute (much like the rebellion against legitimate British rule in the prior century) and, in order to destroy the economy of the vanquished, slavery was simply declared ended. No institutions were involved. There was no hint that the war involved the issue of slavery. It was simply ended overnight without a framework being put in place to ensure that this enjoyed popular support etc....

The net result? The slavery issue, in reality, took another century to resolve. Slavery might not have existed but the ugly holdovers of that time continued well into the late 20th century. Heck, we're still seeing the matter of reparations being discussed by the economic vandals who think that debasing a currency is sound economic policy.

Slavery had already been ended in the Northern States with legislation so this utter nonsense.

 

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1095252TL;DR: The USA is a third world country pretending to be first world. That means weird stuff happens on a regular basis that makes no sense to those of us who enjoy the fruits of civilisation.

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1095252I cannot control how someone chooses to live his or her life, or what he or she believes in. Nor would I want to. However, the normalisation of these "outlying" behaviours, which have traditionally been held to be mental illnesses rather than bad biological wiring, has major effects for the most vulnerable in society - children. It's child abuse with horrible ramifications for later in life when they wake up and realise they've been deluded.

It's a crime that approaches paedophilia in terms of damage inflicted on the most vulnerable in our societies and should be treated as such. (And, no, I don't mean, "covered up so powerful people don't get thrown in jail.")

But the LBTQABCDEFGHIJKLM community should be treated with kindness because, ultimately, they're people and people should be treated with kindness. Unless, of course, their behaviour threatens the physical or mental health of my children, family, and/or friends. And, yes, that means I would game with them, just as I game with people whose political or economic views are opposed to mine.

You are smoking the same shit as rawma aren't you.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1095289Please allow me to answer that: No, they won't. You know that, I know that, cranebump knows it. SJWs are like kids who weren't disciplined immediately for bad behavior. Now, we're dealing with habits we should've never tolerated in the first place. They mistook tolerance as weakness and the irony is that if we weren't tolerant and accepting, SJWs and those they champion would never have been able to have a voice at all.

If it does get to acceptable levels it will be interesting to see what happens to the"allies". No doubt it will be something like what happened to the allies of the communists in the National Liberation Front in Vietnam and the non-Islamist supporters of the Iranian Revolution.

Quote from: Gagarth;1095291If it does get to acceptable levels it will be interesting to see what happens to the"allies". No doubt it will be something like what happened to the allies of the communists in the National Liberation Front in Vietnam and the non-Islamist supporters of the Iranian Revolution.

I recently had that same conversation with a friend. It's a level of delusion I can't fathom. In some ways I pity young adults who have been so thoroughly indoctrinated, they're orchestrating their own demise.

Quote from: jhkim;1095255My apologies, Aglondir. That was a name slip-up on my part. I meant to say Alathon, who described himself as an ethno-nationalist.

I'll go back and edit that to correct my mistake.

Thanks, that makes sense. I'm more libertarian than nationalist. I've been trying to focus more on gaming  and leave politics behind. Aside from the occasional jab at SJWs.

Quote from: cranebump;1095210I just said it's a white dude's game (but less so these days). I didn't even say that was a bad thing. But it is a thing.

It's only a "thing" to people who divide everyone into separate groups based on skin color and genitalia in the first place. To everyone else, it's as simple as "some people like to RPG, others don't".

To tenbones - I'm glad that Pundit and indeed most posters here are roughly pro-LGBT equality. I think that's great. But more broadly, LGBT rights are not secure. There are plenty of places in the U.S. where someone is likely to be beaten up for coming out as gay, and worse internationally (i.e. China, Russia, Saudi Arabia).

Quote from: jhkimBut I don't think either of those is a good thing, and I'd prefer it if those attitudes didn't exist. My family and friends who are LGBT have had to deal with a lot of crap because of attitudes like this. Particularly when he was younger, I wouldn't want my son being exposed to it, as I consider it a sort or bigotry.

Quote from: tenbones;1095248I suspect what the issue today - is not yours particularly, but those that are in the politically active LGBT/SJW/"allied" crowd is the fact that they want to passive-aggressively *force* people to accept their behavior as "normal" when in fact, it's not. By definition. It's an outlier.

There are different uses of the term "normal". For example, being Swedish-American isn't the average in the U.S., but almost no one would say a person was "abnormal" or an "outlier" because they were Swedish-American.

Quote from: tenbones;1095248This doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated well as humans. But it flies in the face of cultural values that simply can't sustain pretending that the way Americans in, say in San Francisco and LA celebrate "Gay Pride" in their parades, where it's highly sexual in nature - should be somehow embraced by those that don't practice such things. I would no more support a sexual parade *in general* as some expression of pride, if only for the sake of not wanting to subject my kids to it (well my kids are grown now - but you get the idea.)

How invested are we *supposed* to be, to your satisfaction of not "preferring" those attitudes to exist? Where exactly is that line to be drawn where YOU say "Yeah, well whatever?". And should gays likewise be exuberant about Heterosexuality too? If not, why not?

I'm not sure what the values line is that you're talking about here. By parallel, I'm not Catholic and I've never been to Mardi Gras in New Orleans, nor would I take my kid there when he was young - but I accept it as a part of my country's culture. I also realize that Mardi Gras and its sexualized nature isn't representative of all Catholics.

Quote from: jhkim;1095323To tenbones - I'm glad that Pundit and indeed most posters here are roughly pro-LGBT equality. I think that's great. But more broadly, LGBT rights are not secure. There are plenty of places in the U.S. where someone is likely to be beaten up for coming out as gay, and worse internationally (i.e. China, Russia, Saudi Arabia).

What "rights" are homosexuals being denied here? Being beaten up for being Gay *IS* against the law, not because they're gay, but because beating up *anyone* is against the law.

Further - these "plenty of places" where you can be beaten up for being openly gay... do you think the number of such places might not hold equally true for other sub-sets of society in other places filled with other assholes that don't like you for being: White, Asian, Mexican, etc. etc. I'm sure I can pick all kinds of locations where per capita you're going to find this "issue" isn't really an issue. Crime statistics already show that LGBT communities assault THEMSELVES at a MUCH higher rate than non-LGBT folks to themselves - or to LGBT people themselves.

https://www.hrc.org/resources/sexual-assault-and-the-lgbt-community

Where is the actual problem?

Quote from: jhkim;1095323There are different uses of the term "normal". For example, being Swedish-American isn't the average in the U.S., but almost no one would say a person was "abnormal" or an "outlier" because they were Swedish-American.

So are you saying you don't really know what "normal" means? Or are you being "rhetorical"? Is it possible for a man to make love to you, as tenderly as possible, with whatever emotional context required for you to acquiesce to such advances - is that act normal to you? Does such a state exist for you? If not - then is it not wise to presume that's "not normal" since as a heterosexual man whose line of behaviors in these matters is in accordance with over 90% of the human population (and I'm willing to be generous in either direction) that would be, under any other circumstances - "not normal".  Seems pretty easy (to me).

And as for the Swedish-American bit. Sweden is a Western European nation from which America derives the vast majority of it's socio-philosophical and political mores. My *general* guess is a "Swedish-American" (whatever the fuck that means in reality) isn't probably a sufficient strain of sub-culture to matter much from "the norm". I'm not sure what your point it. Do you think being a hyphenated-American makes you a "Hyphenated-American" and somehow contextually that insulates one from reality? Again, not sure if you're playing dumb or you're pulling a rhetorically weak points without substantive context to what you say you believe.

Do you think "Swedish-Americans" have the same experience and cultural gravity as "Mexican-Americans"? Personally I know VASTLY more Mexican gamers than Swedish ones. What's your point?

Quote from: jhkim;1095323I'm not sure what the values line is that you're talking about here. By parallel, I'm not Catholic and I've never been to Mardi Gras in New Orleans, nor would I take my kid there when he was young - but I accept it as a part of my country's culture. I also realize that Mardi Gras and its sexualized nature isn't representative of all Catholics.

Well that's a very pathological post-modernist view of your religion (which explains a lot about your view on "normal". By pathologically post-modern I *specifically* mean - Post-Modernists (as opposed to Modernists) can hold two values simultaneously in their scrutiny. But pathological post-modernists are unable/unwilling to discern their values so act as if they're equal.

So you say all these things... yet would you then extend those sentiments to Gay Pride events? You clearly think Mardi Gras parades are not representative of Catholicism - do you think the way Gay Pride Parades are celebrated, encouraged and protected in America - in every major city and the content of those parades are representative of LGBT culture?

What does your discernment tell you?

Quote from: jhkim;1095323To tenbones - I'm glad that Pundit and indeed most posters here are roughly pro-LGBT equality. I think that's great. But more broadly, LGBT rights are not secure. There are plenty of places in the U.S. where someone is likely to be beaten up for coming out as gay, and worse internationally (i.e. China, Russia, Saudi Arabia).

I'm fine with LGB rights, not with the rabid trans activists trying to ram their "gender is just a social construct" nonsense down everyone's throats, attempting to erase actual women in sports and endangering children with unnecessary surgery.

Getting back on topic...

I still don't understand how RPG's are not "inclusive". If the premise should be "play these elf-games any fucking way you want" - how is it not inclusive? It's always been this way.

Why do *I* have to expect to find some particular aspect of my irreversible attributes be manifest in *any* game for me to not enjoy it to the point of accusing everyone else they dislike me - *because* that element is not represented?

I say this qualitatively because in my many decades of gameplay what *I* personally identify as has *never* been actually represented and it has not stopped me or slowed me down one iota in engaging as a participant, as a designer, as a writer, editor, GM or player in *any* aspect of the table-top gaming hobby. I've met people in this hobby from every walk of life, many different races, LGBT folks, real gangbangers (yes that actually game), hipsters, meth-heads, geniuses, perverts, a couple of amputees, one dwarf (played with her at a convention tournament - no she didn't play a dwarf)... in fact, I can say unequivocally, I've had more interactions directly with more people from different places, background, viewpoints. Not all of them good people by any stretch.

It's pretty clear this is more of a discussion about "how can we force people to indulge in my emotional needs and like my stuff the way I like it." With the subtext of if you don't agree, then you're a hateful, bigotted -ism practicing -ist.

Quote from: tenbones;1095355I still don't understand how RPG's are not "inclusive".

Aha! We found one of those muhsogggyknees waaaycists on theRPGsite!!!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1095381Aha! We found one of those muhsogggyknees waaaycists on theRPGsite!!!

"I can dance all day! I can dance all day! Try and hit me! Try and hit me!"

- FPSDoug

Quote from: tenbones;1095328What "rights" are homosexuals being denied here? Being beaten up for being Gay *IS* against the law, not because they're gay, but because beating up *anyone* is against the law.

It is also considered a Federal hate crime even if the motivation for the assault was not based on them being LGBT.

I always laugh and shake my head when people from both Canada and the US keep openly stating how dangerous it is for gay and trans people here. sure one might see a hate crime every blue moon yet openly being beat up. Unless one is living in a Bizarro Twilight version of the world I live in that is simply not true. When in certain places in the world being gay and trans will get you thrown off the roofs of real tall buildings. I guess when one views reality and the world in general through narratives they lose sight of how lucky they are to live in both countries.

Quote from: sureshot;1095416I always laugh and shake my head when people from both Canada and the US keep openly stating how dangerous it is for gay and trans people here.

This is the same in the UK and when activists and the media (is there any difference these days?)  talk about the treatment of LGBT in other countries (e.g. the anti-LGBT laws in Africa) that is all the fault of Whitey too.

Quote from: Gagarth;1095417This is the same in the UK and when activists and the media (is there any difference these days?)  talk about the treatment of LGBT in other countries (e.g. the anti-LGBT laws in Africa) that is all the fault of Whitey too.

But of course; the fact that formerly British colonies in Africa have chosen never to repeal colonial-era laws against homosexuality, even having had decades of independence in which to make those statutory changes, is all our fault!

All of which adds up to the nonsensical hysteria around this white-guilt driven false narrative polemic about Gaming being exclusionary. Which on its face is idiotic.

If I want to be an asshole and use their own inverted logic I'd simply ask "Which identities most deserve representation?" And then be outraged at whatever make-believe identity they didn't name. Then label them an "-ist".

Grow up children.

Quote from: jeff37923;1095049You have made the claim that TheRPGSite is a haven for racists and misogynists. The burden of proof is on you and I find your evidence sorely lacking.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1095050US! You accuse this site of being full of misogynists and racists, yet when asked, you were able to come up with one dude, who got banned.

I described a poster who was called out on his racism by a moderator; never banned, and when I pointed this out many posters defended him (even ones who were in the original thread where that happened). And then the former moderator appeared and said it was true.

If RPGPundit would have the search functions turned back on in his own forum, then you could find plenty of other examples all by yourself. But if I could get him to change one thing, I'd much rather he stopped posting screeds about SJWs in the main forum -- not because of anyone's politics, but because it's politics that reduces the discussion of actual gaming.

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1095082Don't forget, the default he/him was (and arguably still is) correct English grammar for centuries.

I don't object to it, and certainly early D&D books could have benefited more from editing in many other ways; still just pointing out that Supplement 1 Greyhawk was not what was claimed.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1095083rawma, keep in mind that you would've been shut down long ago on TBP. You can say your piece here. That's as inclusive as it needs to be.

I'm apparently the only person here who never spent time at TBP (assuming I correctly understand that to be rpg.net).

Quote from: tenbones;1095355Getting back on topic...

I still don't understand how RPG's are not "inclusive". If the premise should be "play these elf-games any fucking way you want" - how is it not inclusive? It's always been this way.

Because to these fruits it is never enough. Ever. And no matter what you do its going to offend them.

The game doesnt depict men or women at all and is totally generic and you can play whatever race or gender you want? Well I am sorry but that is exclusionism! Unless my pet minority of the week is represented then you are enabaling racism! You monster!

Ok so lets kowtow and put some in? Happy now? NO! Now you are extolling white majority supremacy because there arent enough of my pet minority represented! You monster!

Ok ok. Well make it 50/50 representation. Hows that? Never! You are not representing my pet gender of the week... enough... and that means you are a genocide advocate! You monster!

and on and on and on and on. You monster!

Quote from: rawma;1095767I described a poster who was called out on his racism by a moderator; never banned, and when I pointed this out many posters defended him (even ones who were in the original thread where that happened). And then the former moderator appeared and said it was true.

If RPGPundit would have the search functions turned back on in his own forum, then you could find plenty of other examples all by yourself. But if I could get him to change one thing, I'd much rather he stopped posting screeds about SJWs in the main forum -- not because of anyone's politics, but because it's politics that reduces the discussion of actual gaming.

So you cannot provide proof. ANY proof. Just hearsay and opinion.

You'd think that your only purpose posting here was to spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt about this forum.

Quote from: rawma;109576I'm apparently the only person here who never spent time at TBP (assuming I correctly understand that to be rpg.net).

I know it must seem like many here are bitter ex's when it comes to rpg.net, but you aren't the only one here who isn't. I never joined up there, and not likely to either.

And there are surely others.

Quote from: tenbones;1095328So are you saying you don't really know what "normal" means? Or are you being "rhetorical"? Is it possible for a man to make love to you, as tenderly as possible, with whatever emotional context required for you to acquiesce to such advances - is that act normal to you? Does such a state exist for you? If not - then is it not wise to presume that's "not normal" since as a heterosexual man whose line of behaviors in these matters is in accordance with over 90% of the human population (and I'm willing to be generous in either direction) that would be, under any other circumstances - "not normal".  Seems pretty easy (to me).

 

Normal as prescriptive is what the intersectional cultists use against the very concept of normal, Normal most often means the norm, what is the majority. So it's descriptive and not prescriptive, unless you want to impose your morals on others.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1095809Normal as prescriptive is what the intersectional cultists use against the very concept of normal, Normal most often means the norm, what is the majority. So it's descriptive and not prescriptive, unless you want to impose your morals on others.

yeah yeah, I know. I want him to say it so we can all be out in the open.

Quote from: jeff37923;1095084Virtue Signaling - the action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.

Virtue signaling is the conspicuous expression of moral values.



It is. The conspicuous expression of moral values by people is usually done not to discuss a topic at hand, but to demonstrate the moral superiority of the poster in an attempt to ensure that they are higher up on the social ladder and thus their words have more importance than the rest who are involved in the discussion.




The reader.



Woke - The act of being very pretentious about how much you care about a social issue.

Again, the reader.




Why does not including such assume a lack of welcoming to the game?




So, you were not interested in a discussion and have already made up your mind?



There is no resistance as long as the characters fit in with the setting of the game or the plot of an adventure.



When the inclusion of minority characters is used to advertise a game or a person's appearance of moral superiority.



Your question should be broader than that. ANY character included in the text should fit within the setting of the game or be essential to the plot of the adventure. Otherwise that character is extraneous. That character can be of any race, gender, species, or orientation - it is not just limited to non-binary or transgender.




Then why include them?



If you are including a character for no reason other than to include them, then aren't you just using them as a token? Isn't that even more insulting than just not including them at all?

Nevermind

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1095136Not only am I a moron. I also refuse to let the session around my kitchen table turn into a Pride festival. I am lord of my castle, my home is not somebody's LGBTQ demonstration. Within these walls my rules and my rules only apply. This is, in newspeak, my safespace from the outside madness. I'm heterosexual and all my friends are heterosexual. I don't have feminist cosplayers, genderfluids, furries or transpeople wearing muumuus in my gaming group. But I'm not a representative of the gaming industry, gamers or the people of this forum. I'm just me. And there are only two genders (male/female) in my world, the rest is delusion. Yes, I'm not only a moron, but an old-fashioned moron. Am I not entitled to be me? Must I bow before the bluehaired and woke Twitter army? Would it help to include people in the rpg hobby if I wore a garter belt and silk stockings? Or if I took a supporting shit for the rainbow-coloured LGBTQ cause in a gender neutral rest room?

I was born in 1972. When I grew up and started with roleplaying around 1984 there was no LGBTQ-movement in the Swedish rpg hobby. There certainly were gays and people were crossdressers/transvestites back then. But I don't think our parents would allow them to play with us 12 year olds. Times may have changed a whole lot but I haven't as much. Sometimes I wonder what's next on the woke agenda? Necrophiliacs in gaming ("Don't mind the rotten skull deepthroating my penis, guys. Hey, I brought cheetos and my character sheet.")? Pedo Pride Festivals? What's the next step, the next group to be included via angry Tweets?

Nevermind

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1095136Not only am I a moron. I also refuse to let the session around my kitchen table turn into a Pride festival. I am lord of my castle, my home is not somebody's LGBTQ demonstration. Within these walls my rules and my rules only apply. This is, in newspeak, my safespace from the outside madness. I'm heterosexual and all my friends are heterosexual. I don't have feminist cosplayers, genderfluids, furries or transpeople wearing muumuus in my gaming group. But I'm not a representative of the gaming industry, gamers or the people of this forum. I'm just me. And there are only two genders (male/female) in my world, the rest is delusion. Yes, I'm not only a moron, but an old-fashioned moron. Am I not entitled to be me? Must I bow before the bluehaired and woke Twitter army? Would it help to include people in the rpg hobby if I wore a garter belt and silk stockings? Or if I took a supporting shit for the rainbow-coloured LGBTQ cause in a gender neutral rest room?

I was born in 1972. When I grew up and started with roleplaying around 1984 there was no LGBTQ-movement in the Swedish rpg hobby. There certainly were gays and people were crossdressers/transvestites back then. But I don't think our parents would allow them to play with us 12 year olds. Times may have changed a whole lot but I haven't as much. Sometimes I wonder what's next on the woke agenda? Necrophiliacs in gaming ("Don't mind the rotten skull deepthroating my penis, guys. Hey, I brought cheetos and my character sheet.")? Pedo Pride Festivals? What's the next step, the next group to be included via angry Tweets?

Well said.

I resent the aggressive proselytising of the terminally mentally ill and their woke cheerleaders.

Get some dignity; they should keep their crap behind closed doors. It's also going to be a lot psychologically healthier when they do come their senses and realise that they were seriously deluded (a process I've seen twice in the past ten years).

I am a firm believer in people's private lives remaining private. That goes doubly so when their private peccadilloes are so firmly rooted in mental illness.

Quote from: fixable;1096239Nevermind

Well, now I'm disappointed.

Quote from: jeff37923;1095771So you cannot provide proof. ANY proof. Just hearsay and opinion.

You'd think that your only purpose posting here was to spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt about this forum.

After all it is all about the narrative and it being we are the worst forum and people frequenting it are even worse who needs proof.

Again I wonder if Rawma aand those who feel the same go to TBP and do the same.

Quote from: GeekyBugleNormal as prescriptive is what the intersectional cultists use against the very concept of normal, Normal most often means the norm, what is the majority. So it's descriptive and not prescriptive, unless you want to impose your morals on others.

Quote from: tenbones;1096078yeah yeah, I know. I want him to say it so we can all be out in the open.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, then. As a descriptive statement, the majority of people are not LGBT. Currently in the U.S., about 5% of the population self-identify as LGBT.

Does that mean we're in agreement? Or is there some other point that you're trying to make?

Quote from: jhkim;1096269I'm not sure what you're trying to say, then. As a descriptive statement, the majority of people are not LGBT. Currently in the U.S., about 5% of the population self-identify as LGBT.

Does that mean we're in agreement? Or is there some other point that you're trying to make?

So do you think we should prescriptively put 5% of LGBT content in all entertainment? Even things that have nothing to overtly do with such identities and topics? How much should people that don't identify with other people's identifications be forced to consume those things for the purposes of pretending it's cultural normal when it isn't? How much investment does one have to prove to those people that demand such representations, out of balance of those actual numbers, are we required to consume in order to not be labeled "bigotted" or "racist" or any other "ist"?

I ask because it doesn't seem to work in reverse. Nor does it seem to work in *reality*. Nor does the notion of representation in consumer entertainment and non-entertainment actually resemble these numbers - quite the contrary, those SJW's demand the conflation of the minority to the same status of the majority *by* numerical representation, not actual per-capita numbers by threat of retaliation. Nor do the actual definitions of any "isms" seem to apply universally outside of the idiotic addendas of "power-dynamics" which has literally no bearing in reality. Why is that? Why indeed?

To what are we owed for our self-inflicted problems by others that *don't care*? What does this reality look like on the other side?

Because I feel safe saying I can speak for people that have some modicum of self-confidence, and self-reliance, with little self-loathing as part of my view: things look pretty great on my side. What purpose does it serve to cater to those with such narcissistic and nihilist views? Why not join us over here - where we can mutually pursue "Happiness" without having to give a shit what each other is doing?

 "Happiness" doesn't require making other people miserable for not liking you.

Edit: this is especially true in RPGs. It always has been. It's makebelieve with dice and pencils. You can, and always have, been able to play it any way you want. A game company is under no obligation to cater at their own expense to anyone other than whatever will sustain their desired economic goals. Which *COULD* be for those niche populations... but that's not really the issue, is it?

TL/DR - Stop playing dumb. It suits none of us.

Quote from: jhkim;1096269I'm not sure what you're trying to say, then. As a descriptive statement, the majority of people are not LGBT. Currently in the U.S., about 5% of the population self-identify as LGBT.

Does that mean we're in agreement? Or is there some other point that you're trying to make?

Quote from: tenbones;1096272So do you think we should prescriptively put 5% of LGBT content in all entertainment? Even things that have nothing to overtly do with such identities and topics? How much should people that don't identify with other people's identifications be forced to consume those things for the purposes of pretending it's cultural normal when it isn't?

OK, that doesn't seem to be at all what we were discussing before - but fine. Personally, I'd say we shouldn't prescriptively have any percentage. A skewed percentage is a possible signal that people might have wrongly biased attitudes, but it's not a prescription. That goes just as much for people who complain if it's 50% as for people who complain if it's 1%. Art isn't engineering, after all.

Quote from: tenbones;1096272Because I feel safe saying I can speak for people that have some modicum of self-confidence, and self-reliance, with little self-loathing as part of my view: things look pretty great on my side. What purpose does it serve to cater to those with such narcissistic and nihilist views? Why not join us over here - where we can mutually pursue "Happiness" without having to give a shit what each other is doing?

 "Happiness" doesn't require making other people miserable for not liking you.

I'm all about mutually pursuing happiness. Maybe you're happy and feel like things are great, but I feel like this forum has a lot of people who have a lot of anger and dissatisfaction. Just look at the main topic of this thread. It's created with the intent of complaints about the Virgins & Vixens game. Overwhelmingly, I think that posters here aren't interested in playing this game - and many are only discussing to criticize and deride it. That seems like the negativity that you're talking about.

Pundit has always been invested in his supposed war against the Swine, and my reaction has always been that there should be different sorts of games that different people can enjoy.

Quote from: jhkim;1096359OK, that doesn't seem to be at all what we were discussing before - but fine. Personally, I'd say we shouldn't prescriptively have any percentage. A skewed percentage is a possible signal that people might have wrongly biased attitudes, but it's not a prescription. That goes just as much for people who complain if it's 50% as for people who complain if it's 1%. Art isn't engineering, after all.

But that's precisely how this bogus issue and concern about "representation" has become the signal for calling people "racists" has infiltrated pretty much all entertainment and the arts. We're talking about it right now in RPG's, it exists in Card games. It's rampant in video-games. Genre publishing *demands it* (can confirm - wife is an editor). TOR just put out a blog lamenting that the Bene Gesserit show has no females creatives on the team and that it's an outrage. A publisher of books is outraged about an entirely different artform is not using a specific gender to represent a make-believe fictional construct in their medium that was created by a man. Yeah... who is operating from a bias?

And while you may be actually pretending to believe that this isn't "by prescription" - I'm going to say you're being obtuse to the reality that 1) Qualified people are losing jobs (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2017/08/07/a-googlers-manifesto-is-the-hr-departments-worst-nightmare/?utm_term=.9b7f5845daf8) by merely questioning these things. 2) Legislators (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/30/business/women-corporate-boards-california.html) are implementing rules to enforce these things, despite the realities that those people might not naturally choose or even want those jobs, at the expense of qualified people that do. And it's being done based on criteria that has *nothing* to do with those jobs. (https://www.glassdoor.com/about-us/glassdoor-report-reveals-one-third-of-hiring-decision-makers-expect-to-increase-investment-in-diversity-inclusion-programs-in-next-year/).

So c'mon man. This isn't a new topic around here. Why are you pretending that it's not a thing? If you're going to be intellectually honest - I *CHALLENGE* you to go to TBP and post any kind of devil's advocacy to this reality and watch how hard and fast you get banned. Go up to the forums of WotC and tell them you don't need "diversity" clauses in their games... and watch the reaction. You already know this is true. This is precisely why I think you're dishonest.

Quote from: jhkim;1096359I'm all about mutually pursuing happiness. Maybe you're happy and feel like things are great, but I feel like this forum has a lot of people who have a lot of anger and dissatisfaction.

Do you naturally "play dumb" as a rhetorical method? I think that's *better* than actually being dumb... but as a matter of discourse, it's boring and if I'm going to be a little uncharitable - it's a little insulting to yourself and me (and anyone reading this). Okay okay... I'll play along... "Gee jhkim, WHY do you think on a forum that exists *specifically* with the notion that Free Speech is the North Star of discourse here, where 70%+ of the active posters here are *banned* for speaking their minds at TBP, where some of us have been posters for *decades* that there might not be some hint of dissatisfaction at the asshattery in our industry and the culture at large?"

Gee Gee Oh-Em-Gee? I wonder. Now, *I* am not angry. But it does get irritating to have to play pretend-stupid in order to talk about what's obvious and what isn't-that-should-be-and-is to anyone that's isn't actually stupid. And I'm finding myself fighting to not lay that on you... yet... here I am. So I'm going to keep pretending that you're just pretending.

Quote from: jhkim;1096359Just look at the main topic of this thread. It's created with the intent of complaints about the Virgins & Vixens game. Overwhelmingly, I think that posters here aren't interested in playing this game - and many are only discussing to criticize and deride it. That seems like the negativity that you're talking about.

And it's come to this, why? (and don't get me wrong, I don't like talking about politics in my gaming ad-nauseum either) but these are the rules, so these are the rules. But let's play a different game! Let's *pretend* that none of their political shit you're worried about in the main forum (as it relates to gaming) didn't exist in our pop-culture. Okay? Do you think we'd not be arguing about and shitting on it, defending it and having heated discussions about it anyhow? Do we not do that with whatever game of the month exists? Are they not doing that with Pathfinder 2e? Did they not do it with D&D4e? Hell - people have started threads and bickered about D&D 6e and it doesn't even exist.

People are free to criticize and deride shit all they want. It's the quality of the criticism in context that matters. Everything else falls to the wayside. That's how discourse goes. At least here you can have that.

Quote from: jhkim;1096359Pundit has always been invested in his supposed war against the Swine, and my reaction has always been that there should be different sorts of games that different people can enjoy.

That's right. But you commit the pathological post-modernist error of pretending that all-games are equal with that statement. You make no qualifiers on it. I want GOOD games for everyone. Not all games are written and designed to even be GOOD games. FATAL isn't a good game. Making a game like "The Watch" with its flimsy conceits is not a good game to make - since it's trying to push the allegory of its politics over the game itself. If people like playing those games - that still doesn't make them "GOOD". It means those people like them for other reasons - which where we can have discourse. But the reality is, those people don't really want to do that. Nobody is saying you can't make those games. No one here is saying you can't play those games. No one is saying you're a piece of shit of enjoying them.

Except for people that do make those games, and do play those games, DO say those things towards people that don't engage with those games. They seem to do those things. Odd isn't it? That's *why* the war exists. That's *why* many of us ended up here. Words are violence, you're a racist/migynist/bigot/fartist etc. That's not our lingo... that's what we get labeled with because we don't like their weirdo politics sufficiently to bend a knee.

...but you knew this. And frankly... that's why SJW's are liars. If not overtly to others, then at minimum to themselves.

One of the questions I have surrounding the whole inclusiveness thing is the LGBT definition itself. I have seen LGBT, LGBTQ, LGBTQ+, LGBTQI and other configurations. Which one is the most woke? Which one is the best? What is included in the umbrella term Queer, Queer+ and words like that? Necrophilia? Zoophilia? Pedophilia?

Back in my Swedish school days when we learned English queer used to mean odd and strange. It was also used in American movies as a curse word when calling someone gay. But these days...it's an umbrella term. But for what exactly?

And another thing, what is genderfluid, exactly? Sounds like a fence-sitter, shilly-shally, ditherer (yes, I googled synonyms). Someone like this:

"I saw myself sitting in the crotch of this fig tree, starving to death, just because I couldn't make up my mind which of the figs I would choose. I wanted each and every one of them, but choosing one meant losing all the rest, and, as I sat there, unable to decide, the figs began to wrinkle and go black, and, one by one, they plopped to the ground at my feet."
  - Sylvia Plath, The Bell Jar

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1096365One of the questions I have surrounding the whole inclusiveness thing is the LGBT definition itself. I have seen LGBT, LGBTQ, LGBTQ+, LGBTQI and other configurations. Which one is the most woke? Which one is the best? What is included in the umbrella term Queer, Queer+ and words like that? Necrophilia? Zoophilia? Pedophilia?

Back in my Swedish school days when we learned English queer used to mean odd and strange. It was also used in American movies as a curse word when calling someone gay. But these days...it's an umbrella term. But for what exactly?

And another thing, what is genderfluid, exactly? Sounds like a fence-sitter, shilly-shally, ditherer (yes, I googled synonyms). Someone like this:

"I saw myself sitting in the crotch of this fig tree, starving to death, just because I couldn't make up my mind which of the figs I would choose. I wanted each and every one of them, but choosing one meant losing all the rest, and, as I sat there, unable to decide, the figs began to wrinkle and go black, and, one by one, they plopped to the ground at my feet."
  - Sylvia Plath, The Bell Jar

The longest one I've heard of is "LGBTTQQIAAP" (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual, ally, pansexual; yes I had to look that up). Hilariously, it's been criticized both internally and externally for being confusing as well as leaving certain groups out. Who those groups are I'm not sure, but I've seen insanely exhaustive lists of them around before. First one that comes to mind that I've seen mentioned, which is not included above is "two-spirit" (I don't know what that means but I'm sure someone here must). I think "genderfluid" is supposed to be "I am whatever I feel like being at this given moment: The Gender" so I guess not far off from what you described but honestly I don't know, that's just what it sounds like to me.

Either way, I don't remember ever conducting a sexuality quiz prior to letting someone game in my groups. Nor has anyone felt the need to identify that to me in such a setting. Nor would I care for them to.

Quote from: jhkimOK, that doesn't seem to be at all what we were discussing before - but fine. Personally, I'd say we shouldn't prescriptively have any percentage. A skewed percentage is a possible signal that people might have wrongly biased attitudes, but it's not a prescription. That goes just as much for people who complain if it's 50% as for people who complain if it's 1%. Art isn't engineering, after all.

Quote from: tenbones;1096361So c'mon man. This isn't a new topic around here. Why are you pretending that it's not a thing? If you're going to be intellectually honest - I *CHALLENGE* you to go to TBP and post any kind of devil's advocacy to this reality and watch how hard and fast you get banned. Go up to the forums of WotC and tell them you don't need "diversity" clauses in their games... and watch the reaction. You already know this is true. This is precisely why I think you're dishonest.

tenbones -This is fucking bullshit. You asked me a question, and I gave you *my* answer, which represents what *I* think.

There are tons of people out there with different opinions than mine. Just because I gave my answer doesn't mean that I am dishonest and pretending that other people don't answer differently. To me, it seems like you're jumping about topics wildly. I haven't said shit about rpgnet, so what the hell would my getting banned there show?

I post what I actually think, and right now I think that you're engaged in asshattery over my doing that. So, no, I'm not going to post devil's advocacy either here or in TBP. If you want to know what I think I'll tell you.

Quote from: tenbones;1096361Do you naturally "play dumb" as a rhetorical method? I think that's *better* than actually being dumb... but as a matter of discourse, it's boring and if I'm going to be a little uncharitable - it's a little insulting to yourself and me (and anyone reading this). Okay okay... I'll play along... "Gee jhkim, WHY do you think on a forum that exists *specifically* with the notion that Free Speech is the North Star of discourse here, where 70%+ of the active posters here are *banned* for speaking their minds at TBP, where some of us have been posters for *decades* that there might not be some hint of dissatisfaction at the asshattery in our industry and the culture at large?"

Gee Gee Oh-Em-Gee? I wonder. Now, *I* am not angry. But it does get irritating to have to play pretend-stupid in order to talk about what's obvious and what isn't-that-should-be-and-is to anyone that's isn't actually stupid.

Fuck you, tenbones. This is *your* bullshit. You claimed that you were happy and satisfied, and thus that I should come and join your side -- and then you claim that I'm "playing dumb" by pointing out that your side seems dissatisfied and angry? That's your own dumbness that you're responding to.


(Re: The Watch)

Quote from: tenbones;1096361Except for people that do make those games, and do play those games, DO say those things towards people that don't engage with those games. They seem to do those things. Odd isn't it? That's *why* the war exists. That's *why* many of us ended up here. Words are violence, you're a racist/migynist/bigot/fartist etc. That's not our lingo... that's what we get labeled with because we don't like their weirdo politics sufficiently to bend a knee.

...but you knew this. And frankly... that's why SJW's are liars. If not overtly to others, then at minimum to themselves.

Years ago, when I was active on The Forge, I was known among other things for being the one to defend traditional RPGs, because I thought they were positive and functional. And people would rage about how I couldn't do that, because of the assholes on the other side who would deride and attack Forgite games. Regardless of which side you're on - for any conflict, there will be assholes both on the other side, and on your own side. Someone else always started it, because there's always some asshole previously.

Some wars are worth fighting, but this RPG spat isn't one of those for me. I'm happy to jump back and forth between playing D&D or Savage Worlds and playing Bluebeard's Bride or other games.

Because the self-loathing of some people becomes gravity for their egos. They come to identify with those things. The worst cases are they identify with those things almost exclusively.

These are the people that start wanting to enforce control by changing the terms of words - they can means the exact same thing, but they want to pretend it doesn't. This is how "invalid" became "disabled". Idiot, Imbecile and Moron were medical terms that have existed since start of the 20th century. They came to called "Mental Retardation" an umbrella term around 60's. But these terms changed post-60's by activist groups not wanting any term to be used to signify what everyone already accepted it meant. And of course people used a pejorative to anyone and anything.

The goalpost keeps moving for the purposes of soothing people's emotions. Carlin did a bit about it - observing we keep changing these terms to longer more technical sounding terms that mean the same thing. It applies to these other concepts. It's whack-a-mole with sounds.

And it's because fake moralists want to pretend they're protecting people from ideas and abuse, when in reality it's about control. You can say - "Don't say moron, idiot, imbecile, mongoloid, retard etc. you have to call them Daffodils."

Well okay. That doesn't change you from being dumb fucking Daffodil.

It's not about inclusion. It's about forcing people not like them to accept them as *they* demand it, with the tacit threat of "or else".

Quote from: jhkim;1096371tenbones -This is fucking bullshit. You asked me a question, and I gave you *my* answer, which represents what *I* think.

Yeah, it's a dumb question, phrased as if you don't already know the answer. But whatever.

Quote from: jhkim;1096371There are tons of people out there with different opinions than mine. Just because I gave my answer doesn't mean that I am dishonest and pretending that other people don't answer differently. To me, it seems like you're jumping about topics wildly. I haven't said shit about rpgnet, so what the hell would my getting banned there show?

Well I was trying to give you some credit. That's why I kept saying - I feel you're pretending. No I'm not jumping around. We're talking about claims about this hobby and industry being accused by SJWS of being non-inclusive. You're actually telling me that by me asking you to make such counter-claims on the biggest SJW RPG website on the internet just to see their reactions - IN ORDER to back up my claims that it's the SJW's themseves are the problem (I honestly can't fucking believe I'm *actually*, literally spelling this out for you)... that it's not germane? Sweet Jesus I'm guilty of giving you *way* too much credit.

Quote from: jhkim;1096371I post what I actually think, and right now I think that you're engaged in asshattery over my doing that. So, no, I'm not going to post devil's advocacy either here or in TBP. If you want to know what I think I'll tell you.

Well the only reason I can gather is that you *don't* really want to acknowledge what nearly everyone here already knows: The intolerant ones in the RPG hobby and industry are the SJW's. I'm not telling you to leave. I'm not telling you to "shut the fuck up" - I too am doing *exactly* what you're doing. I'm posting what I think. /shrug. If I didn't care to do it - I wouldn't post. But as I said, repeatedly, I was giving you credit that you were actually looking at the bigger picture and clearly you're not. So either you're being obtuse, or pretending - or you're actually so compartmentalized in your thoughts that they don't link together rationally. I honestly don't know what else to say.

Quote from: jhkim;1096371Fuck you, tenbones. This is *your* bullshit. You claimed that you were happy and satisfied, and thus that I should come and join your side -- and then you claim that I'm "playing dumb" by pointing out that your side seems dissatisfied and angry? That's your own dumbness that you're responding to.

Nope. Not my bullshit. I'm doing quite well. I'm just talking with you (and everyone else) on one of my more active forums. I make no claims about YOU being happy. I have no idea if you are. I do claim you're "playing dumb" because your questions are *completely* ignoring the context of the entire thread. You're asking questions as if you have zero idea about the temperature of the water we're all sitting in, within the proverbial tub. You're raising weak defenses, by repeating this "dumb routine" when by OVERT EXAMPLE you can prove this to yourself (since YOU are the one questioning it) - by going over to the local SJW stronghold and say something as simple as "I don't think we need diversity clauses in D&D" and you'll see your own question answered. So either your question is poorly reasoned or you're beind willfully ignorant, despite me and others answering it over and over across many threads, me providing linked examples of only the TINIEST fraction of the actual larger problem IN ACTION, becomes a BLARING airhorn that:

1) Either you're actually dumber than I gave you credit for
2) Lying to yourself to such a degree that you must blank out whenever an upsetting reality confronts you.
3) Pretending you're ignorant and discussing in bad faith.

The only dumber response I could not forsee you pulling is what you actually pulled and said "I posted my opinion! waahh." Which conveniently doesn't really answer any of my three claims. None of them being kind to those of us actually having the discussion. It says a lot more about you, than me. I'm engaged. You are not. "My side" is anyone that wants to game and have fun. That may/may not include you. I'm okay with dumbasses gaming with me, as long as they don't ruin the game.

Quote from: jhkim;1096371(Re: The Watch)

Years ago, when I was active on The Forge, I was known among other things for being the one to defend traditional RPGs, because I thought they were positive and functional. And people would rage about how I couldn't do that, because of the assholes on the other side who would deride and attack Forgite games. Regardless of which side you're on - for any conflict, there will be assholes both on the other side, and on your own side. Someone else always started it, because there's always some asshole previously.

Some wars are worth fighting, but this RPG spat isn't one of those for me. I'm happy to jump back and forth between playing D&D or Savage Worlds and playing Bluebeard's Bride or other games.

So... do you think the problem is what? There is no problem? WHO are the people playing Forge games back then, now? Are they the ones here, discussing things? Are they the ones outraged and forming internet mobs to shut people down? Or is that happening by people here? You're dancing around the obvious. It's *no one here* no matter how *rabid* you think any of the regular posters are here that advocate for the very thing that is causing this issue and making these claims about RPG's... and if you're willing indulge any amount of reason and rationality - to entertainment pop-culture writ-large. That's why the umbrella term of SJW exists.

You know... all the shit I already pointed out. Which you oddly seem to think aren't related. And look! I'm still happily posting!

Edit: I wanted to add something about your last paragraph... It's a STRIKING example of the glaring lack of self-awarness within the pathological post-modernist paradigm. You raise both sides - Forgist, Non-Forgists. You make no qualifications on the validity/invalidity of their claims, or the quality of their perspectives, instead you boil it down to the simplistic "There are Assholes on All Sides" and then there is "My Side". This is *the classic* pathological inability for Post-Modernism's inability to differentiate qualities of state with self-awareness of one's own position within the criticism itself.  By making two claims in opposition to one another - and using a reductionist view of "there's assholes on all sides" without making *any* other valuation of them it renders the entire claim pointless.

"Devil Worshippers and Buddhists all have assholes among their memberships. Oh well! It's all the same! Religion! so weird!"

Engage jhkim. Engage.

The Bell Jar is a rather good book. :) Great insight into nervous breakdown and a smothering, numbing, anxiety.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1096369First one that comes to mind that I've seen mentioned, which is not included above is "two-spirit" (I don't know what that means but I'm sure someone here must).

I think "genderfluid" is supposed to be "I am whatever I feel like being at this given moment: The Gender" so I guess not far off from what you described but honestly I don't know, that's just what it sounds like to me.

1: Could be new-speak for Therians. People who believe their spirit is really some other thing. An animal, a person, a rock, a videogame character (no I am not making that last one up), and so on. Theres been some weird drift in the Therian community over the decades. And it was weird to begin with. Sometimes its essentially reincarnation. Other times its more like channelling, and other times its whatever someone wants the term to mean.

2: Sounds about right. Though in the past it referred to online RPs where a character could change genders. Like how it is depicted in a few sci-fi media which probably inspired it. Outside of RP characters seems to mean "Im in whatever camp I feel like (or suits my agenda) this current s/m/h-dd/mm/yy." Or whatever someone wants the term to mean.

The changing of meaning is key.

Ron Edwards & his cabal went at this on BP way back and Pundit challenged it.

Whenever I see posters trying to redefine what words mean, I know it's some Leftist, Deconstructionist propaganda. "What is system, really?" "What is agency, really?" "What does a GM do, really?"

They don't want to join the hobby. They want to redefine what it is to even know what a tabletop rpg is. The rpg has to fit *their* definition, or, it's a *bad game*.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1096403The Bell Jar is a rather good book. :) Great insight into nervous breakdown and a smothering, numbing, anxiety.

I have to trust your review. I must confess I haven't read it. I just found the great quote online. I have anxiety myself and can actually get panic attacks reading about other people's panic attacks and anxiety. So, I will save Plath for a very bright and sunny day in my life, lol.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1096369The longest one I've heard of is "LGBTTQQIAAP" (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual, ally, pansexual; yes I had to look that up). Hilariously, it's been criticized both internally and externally for being confusing as well as leaving certain groups out. Who those groups are I'm not sure, but I've seen insanely exhaustive lists of them around before. First one that comes to mind that I've seen mentioned, which is not included above is "two-spirit" (I don't know what that means but I'm sure someone here must). I think "genderfluid" is supposed to be "I am whatever I feel like being at this given moment: The Gender" so I guess not far off from what you described but honestly I don't know, that's just what it sounds like to me.

Either way, I don't remember ever conducting a sexuality quiz prior to letting someone game in my groups. Nor has anyone felt the need to identify that to me in such a setting. Nor would I care for them to.

The Two-Spirit theme is ripped from Native Americans hands: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2010/oct/11/two-spirit-people-north-america

It really just seems to mean that a person is a tomboy or a feminine man. On the weirder and weirder letter combinations out there I also read that they seem to eat their own in the LGBTQ+Windows10 community, especially people that identify as bisexuals, because bi signals only two genders and that is BAD. Pansexual seems to be the safest, most inclusive sexual identity one can have in these movements. I'm more pancake-sexual myself.

If you control the language, you control the narrative. Change the meanings of words, then attack those who use the old definitions, and use the warped language to push your agenda.

Carlin did nail America's worship of soft language, and how we unfortunately go along with this farce.

[video=youtube;h67k9eEw9AY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h67k9eEw9AY[/youtube]

Quote from: tenbones;1096361But that's precisely how this bogus issue and concern about "representation" has become the signal for calling people "racists" has infiltrated pretty much all entertainment and the arts. We're talking about it right now in RPG's, it exists in Card games. It's rampant in video-games. Genre publishing *demands it* (can confirm - wife is an editor). TOR just put out a blog lamenting that the Bene Gesserit show has no females creatives on the team and that it's an outrage. A publisher of books is outraged about an entirely different artform is not using a specific gender to represent a make-believe fictional construct in their medium that was created by a man. Yeah... who is operating from a bias?

And while you may be actually pretending to believe that this isn't "by prescription" - I'm going to say you're being obtuse to the reality that 1) Qualified people are losing jobs (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2017/08/07/a-googlers-manifesto-is-the-hr-departments-worst-nightmare/?utm_term=.9b7f5845daf8) by merely questioning these things. 2) Legislators (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/30/business/women-corporate-boards-california.html) are implementing rules to enforce these things, despite the realities that those people might not naturally choose or even want those jobs, at the expense of qualified people that do. And it's being done based on criteria that has *nothing* to do with those jobs. (https://www.glassdoor.com/about-us/glassdoor-report-reveals-one-third-of-hiring-decision-makers-expect-to-increase-investment-in-diversity-inclusion-programs-in-next-year/).

Here are some more examples of the quota systems in action or pressure is be brought to have implemented.

https://hornet.com/stories/lgbt-representation-in-film (https://hornet.com/stories/lgbt-representation-in-film)
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-22/-inclusion-riders-make-inroads-a-year-after-star-turn-on-oscars (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-22/-inclusion-riders-make-inroads-a-year-after-star-turn-on-oscars)
https://creativediversitynetwork.com/diamond/ (https://creativediversitynetwork.com/diamond/)
https://www.glaad.org/sri/2018/vitorusso (https://www.glaad.org/sri/2018/vitorusso)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2018/lgbt-culture-and-progression (https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2018/lgbt-culture-and-progression)

Quote from: Spinachcat;1096494If you control the language, you control the narrative. Change the meanings of words, then attack those who use the old definitions, and use the warped language to push your agenda.

Carlin did nail America's worship of soft language, and how we unfortunately go along with this farce.

[video=youtube;h67k9eEw9AY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h67k9eEw9AY[/youtube]

God, I miss that man...

Quote from: moonsweeper;1096542God, I miss that man...

Enjoy Carlin's stuff while you can.

Soon enough he will be found "problematic" and deleted for our protection.

And all the doubleplusgoodthinkers will rejoice.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1096572Enjoy Carlin's stuff while you can.

I was surprised that you would endorse the statement that "Smug, greedy, well-fed white people have invented a language to conceal their sins. It's as simple as that."

Quote from: Spinachcat;1096572Enjoy Carlin's stuff while you can.

Soon enough he will be found "problematic" and deleted for our protection.

And all the doubleplusgoodthinkers will rejoice.

Of course. Anyone who forewarns of an impending infestation/infiltration must be made to look bad or better yet erased so the general populace is more unsuspecting as they are co-opted.

Just take a look at the SJW bitching over the rather supernaturally precognitive bits in CP20202 recently.

Quote from: rawma;1096598I was surprised that you would endorse the statement that "Smug, greedy, well-fed white people have invented a language to conceal their sins. It's as simple as that."

Depends on which smug, greedy, well-fed white people you think he's reffering to. Carlin was an equal opportunity offender. His bit about feminism is pretty great.

[video=youtube_share;c3gMELlrO3E]https://youtu.be/c3gMELlrO3E[/youtube]

Quote from: rawma;1096598I was surprised that you would endorse the statement that "Smug, greedy, well-fed white people have invented a language to conceal their sins. It's as simple as that."

We see some of that here, but probably not the people you think it refers to.

Quote from: Omega;10964731: Could be new-speak for Therians. People who believe their spirit is really some other thing. An animal, a person, a rock, a videogame character (no I am not making that last one up), and so on. Theres been some weird drift in the Therian community over the decades. And it was weird to begin with. Sometimes its essentially reincarnation. Other times its more like channelling, and other times its whatever someone wants the term to mean.

Hm, interesting. I'd never heard of this term before. I looked it up and apparently it's similar to "otherkin" except where otherkin (and other, uh, -kin's) is specifically non-earthly entities, "therian" specifically connotes an earthly being of some kind. I can't say the concept itself is terribly surprising, I'm pretty sure I remember this type of thing proliferating on myspace.

Quote from: Omega;10964732: Sounds about right. Though in the past it referred to online RPs where a character could change genders. Like how it is depicted in a few sci-fi media which probably inspired it. Outside of RP characters seems to mean "Im in whatever camp I feel like (or suits my agenda) this current s/m/h-dd/mm/yy." Or whatever someone wants the term to mean.

This is actually a neat idea to me in the context of sci-fi settings, or any fantasy setting with a suitably "weird" race (for some reason my instinct is that a gender-swapping fantasy race might be aquatic or at least amphibious). I can't say I've ever had a player who would pick such a race for a longform campaign specifically due to such a trait, but it might be interesting to explore the cultural effects within the setting/society.

I will say I've had multiple players pick out non-gendered races to play such as ents before; my pet theory is that there could be less of a stumbling block there due to the fact that roleplaying games aren't really "about" gender in any significant way already, so removing it from the equation entirely doesn't change much from the player's point of view (whereas calling out a race that can physically swap genders might push the concept further into the equation, at least in a superficial way).

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1096492The Two-Spirit theme is ripped from Native Americans hands: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2010/oct/11/two-spirit-people-north-america

It really just seems to mean that a person is a tomboy or a feminine man. On the weirder and weirder letter combinations out there I also read that they seem to eat their own in the LGBTQ+Windows10 community, especially people that identify as bisexuals, because bi signals only two genders and that is BAD. Pansexual seems to be the safest, most inclusive sexual identity one can have in these movements. I'm more pancake-sexual myself.

I've no issue with pancake-sexual people, but the terminology comes off as a little offensive and non-inclusive towards wafflesexuals such as myself.

Quote from: rawma;1096598I was surprised that you would endorse the statement that "Smug, greedy, well-fed white people have invented a language to conceal their sins. It's as simple as that."

Why? It's true. White-leftist guilt-ridden, moralizing, self-loathing assholes are the ones that pushed all this. Carlin was spot-on.

Quote from: Gagarth;1096538Here are some more examples of the quota systems in action or pressure is be brought to have implemented.

https://hornet.com/stories/lgbt-representation-in-film (https://hornet.com/stories/lgbt-representation-in-film)
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-22/-inclusion-riders-make-inroads-a-year-after-star-turn-on-oscars (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-22/-inclusion-riders-make-inroads-a-year-after-star-turn-on-oscars)
https://creativediversitynetwork.com/diamond/ (https://creativediversitynetwork.com/diamond/)
https://www.glaad.org/sri/2018/vitorusso (https://www.glaad.org/sri/2018/vitorusso)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2018/lgbt-culture-and-progression (https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2018/lgbt-culture-and-progression)

Yep. And we could produce more and more with very little effort. That's precisely why I'm accusing jhkim of playing stupid for rhetorical reasons. Because... if it's not a rhetorical position, then it would be extremely rude for me to call him a idiot. So either it's willful ignorance, or it's blind stupidity. Maybe at this point it doesn't matter.

Quote from: Gagarth;1096538Here are some more examples of the quota systems in action or pressure is be brought to have implemented.

https://hornet.com/stories/lgbt-representation-in-film (https://hornet.com/stories/lgbt-representation-in-film)
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-22/-inclusion-riders-make-inroads-a-year-after-star-turn-on-oscars (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-22/-inclusion-riders-make-inroads-a-year-after-star-turn-on-oscars)
https://creativediversitynetwork.com/diamond/ (https://creativediversitynetwork.com/diamond/)
https://www.glaad.org/sri/2018/vitorusso (https://www.glaad.org/sri/2018/vitorusso)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2018/lgbt-culture-and-progression (https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2018/lgbt-culture-and-progression)

Quote from: tenbones;1096632Yep. And we could produce more and more with very little effort. That's precisely why I'm accusing jhkim of playing stupid for rhetorical reasons. Because... if it's not a rhetorical position, then it would be extremely rude for me to call him a idiot. So either it's willful ignorance, or it's blind stupidity. Maybe at this point it doesn't matter.

tenbones, let me try this again. You brought up the topic of quotas. I said that I didn't agree with them - that statistics could be an indication of prejudice, but weren't definitive.

You then accused me of claiming that *no one else* ever believed in quotas. If you continue to maintain this - please point the post where I say such.


Gagarth's examples are about minority (esp. LGBT) representation in media. People like to argue statistics because it gives some impression of being more objective and concrete, but ultimately representation is about subjective message - not statistics. LGBT advocates push for more representation, while conversely, anti-LGBT advocates claim that there are too many or too prominent LGBT characters. The problem is that focusing primarily on the statistics is flawed because it results in an attitude of just fulfilling the stats rather than addressing the causes.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1096630Hm, interesting. I'd never heard of this term before. I looked it up and apparently it's similar to "otherkin" except where otherkin (and other, uh, -kin's) is specifically non-earthly entities, "therian" specifically connotes an earthly being of some kind. I can't say the concept itself is terribly surprising, I'm pretty sure I remember this type of thing proliferating on myspace.

Theres ALOT of drift between Therian and Otherkin as alot of otherkin are really just therians with a new made up name for themselves. Half the time if someone says Therian they could mean something eartly and natural. Or very not. And same with otherkin. Half the time they mean something earthly and natural. Or very not.

It goes way back to at least the early to mid 80s. Pretty small. But when Werewolf came out. BOOM! By the mid 90s They were all over the place. I think around 2001 or later the "otherkin" moniker started getting used. Early on it was interchangeable with therian as by then therian could mean anything really. Both though tend to be pretty laid back and non-offensive overall. Least all the encounters I had with them at cons were pleasant ones. Unfortunately others have had the diametric opposite type of encounters. Mercifully very rare and well to be expected you'll get someone going too far in ANY venue.

For some odd reason various indie comic publishers just hated therians and later even more so otherkin. Still not sure what the rift was as they werent stealing away customers. Same group also didnt like costumers either. But after a while it was obvious that was because some were drawing away customers money as people started commissioning costumes. Ususally just a low level sort of "you iz competing with me!" sort of attitude. And no where near the level of hate they sometimes directed at eachother.

Probably the same was going on with RPGs but at a much slower rate. I seem to recall White Wolf not being too thrilled with therians liking Werewolf.

Quote from: Omega;1096655Theres ALOT of drift between Therian and Otherkin as alot of otherkin are really just therians with a new made up name for themselves. Half the time if someone says Therian they could mean something eartly and natural. Or very not. And same with otherkin. Half the time they mean something earthly and natural. Or very not.

It goes way back to at least the early to mid 80s. Pretty small. But when Werewolf came out. BOOM! By the mid 90s They were all over the place. I think around 2001 or later the "otherkin" moniker started getting used. Early on it was interchangeable with therian as by then therian could mean anything really. Both though tend to be pretty laid back and non-offensive overall. Least all the encounters I had with them at cons were pleasant ones. Unfortunately others have had the diametric opposite type of encounters. Mercifully very rare and well to be expected you'll get someone going too far in ANY venue.

Huh, interesting. I only rarely had any awareness of these groups starting in the mid-90's (this explains why), it's interesting to hear the pre- and post-90's history since I haven't exactly had my finger on the pulse of any of these communities and I generally try to avoid cons altogether. I was definitely aware of the Werewolf phenomenon, having been in several gaming clubs throughout the late 90's and early 00's (though, goths were still a thing, and while there was definite overlap with that group and therians it wasn't always straightforward to discern which from which without it coming up in conversation somehow; at least the ones I met tended to have fairly similar stylistic tastes...). I can't say I had negative experiences with any of them, aside from some just having odd social tendencies in general (hardly unique to them, most of the kids in our gaming clubs were at least a little odd).

Quote from: Omega;1096655Probably the same was going on with RPGs but at a much slower rate. I seem to recall White Wolf not being too thrilled with therians liking Werewolf.

LOL. Yeah, I could imagine them wanting to avoid certain possible associations. I remember reading one of the WW novels when I was younger, "Conspicuous Consumption" I think, and I remember midway through there was a somewhat graphic scene featuring "heated" werewolf-on-human, mid-transformation sex. I couldn't help but think "who exactly was this written for...?"

Quote from: Antiquation!;1096670LOL. Yeah, I could imagine them wanting to avoid certain possible associations. I remember reading one of the WW novels when I was younger, "Conspicuous Consumption" I think, and I remember midway through there was a somewhat graphic scene featuring "heated" werewolf-on-human, mid-transformation sex. I couldn't help but think "who exactly was this written for...?"

Probably a nod to that scene in The Howling. Ironic as WW borrowed ideas from it so heavily.

Werewolf sex goes back to folklore, and probably much further back in oral storytelling.

It's that forbidden bestiality and joy of rough sex...and why Beauty and the Beast is such a popular tale.

A few years ago, I met a ex-Disney artist and she does custom erotica art on commission. Let's just say her "Beast on Belle" sketches pay lots of bills....and her clients aren't dudes.

Quote from: rawma;1096598I was surprised that you would endorse the statement that "Smug, greedy, well-fed white people have invented a language to conceal their sins. It's as simple as that."

100% endorsement from me.

I'm the guy who says SJWs are the proof "white supremacy" can't exist. No superior race would spawn such garbage. But since the "white race" has not only birthed SJWs, but coddled them in academia and exalted them in the media, any claims to "white supremacy" is laughable.

I'm also the guy who happily and regularly shat upon the Religious Right during the 80s and beyond for their self-serving hypocrisy, and their Neo-Con bastard spawn and neither group was known for their "diversity".

I'm a free speech advocate. My allies come in all colors, creeds and both genders. A core element of free speech is honest speech, real words with visceral definitions, not the laughable and lifeless bullshit of PC speech.

Also, I empathize with Carlin's anger at "white people" as his was the last generation who could remember the low population USA of dirt roads and vast natural spaces, before the paving over of the beauty of the continent with endless highways, housing tracts and mini-malls.

Quote from: tenbones;1096631Why? It's true. White-leftist guilt-ridden, moralizing, self-loathing assholes are the ones that pushed all this. Carlin was spot-on.

Exactly.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1096703I'm the guy who says SJWs are the proof "white supremacy" can't exist. No superior race would spawn such garbage. But since the "white race" has not only birthed SJWs, but coddled them in academia and exalted them in the media, any claims to "white supremacy" is laughable.

Its just a Memetic virus like Communism.  It takes a while for a Culture to build up resistance and it may get worse before it starts getting better like Parachute pants in the 80s.

Quote from: Shasarak;1096707Its just a Memetic virus like Communism.

Good point about communism.

That's another genius move spawned by "white race" that proves we've got zero claim to racial supremacy. No "superior race" would have created, let alone implemented, the utter asinine stupidity of communism. Even dumber, after a century proving communism is a total failure, we have universities graduating "white people" clamoring for more communism. That alone has gotta drop from IQ points off the honky tally!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1096710Good point about communism.

That's another genius move spawned by "white race" that proves we've got zero claim to racial supremacy. No "superior race" would have created, let alone implemented, the utter asinine stupidity of communism. Even dumber, after a century proving communism is a total failure, we have universities graduating "white people" clamoring for more communism. That alone has gotta drop from IQ points off the honky tally!

I would not give old Whitey too much of a hard time, even the Asians fell for it.  Turns out the smarter you are the better you are at justifying bad ideas to yourself.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1096703100% endorsement from me.

I'm the guy who says SJWs are the proof "white supremacy" can't exist. No superior race would spawn such garbage. But since the "white race" has not only birthed SJWs, but coddled them in academia and exalted them in the media, any claims to "white supremacy" is laughable.

I'm also the guy who happily and regularly shat upon the Religious Right during the 80s and beyond for their self-serving hypocrisy, and their Neo-Con bastard spawn and neither group was known for their "diversity".

I'm a free speech advocate. My allies come in all colors, creeds and both genders. A core element of free speech is honest speech, real words with visceral definitions, not the laughable and lifeless bullshit of PC speech.

Also, I empathize with Carlin's anger at "white people" as his was the last generation who could remember the low population USA of dirt roads and vast natural spaces, before the paving over of the beauty of the continent with endless highways, housing tracts and mini-malls.

Truth

...but I have the feeling that you might as well be talking to a wall, unfortunately.  
Anyone who can actually grasp the concept wouldn't need it explained to them.

Quote from: jhkim;1096651
Gagarth's examples are about minority (esp. LGBT) representation in media. People like to argue statistics because it gives some impression of being more objective and concrete, but ultimately representation is about subjective message - not statistics. LGBT advocates push for more representation, while conversely, anti-LGBT advocates claim that there are too many or too prominent LGBT characters. The problem is that focusing primarily on the statistics is flawed because it results in an attitude of just fulfilling the stats rather than addressing the causes.[/QUOTEIt is not just a about faces on the screen (They have already won that battle. Not that there was much of fight since the media corporations had already been thoroughly infiltrated)  it is about who gets employed.  The  intersectionalists and their cis/straight white allies  have already decided every single place of work or institution should have the same demographics as Atlanta, San Francisco  or a sanctuary city in the U.S. or London in the UK. They are already campaigning  for employers to automatically hire  a minority if there are a number of equally qualified applicants.  Not sure about the U.S. but in U.K. this would be perfectly legal already as it his been enshrined in Section 159 of the Equality Act 2010.  How long before the intersectionalists demand that it be legally mandatory the minority automatically get hired..

Quote from: jhkimGagarth's examples are about minority (esp. LGBT) representation in media. People like to argue statistics because it gives some impression of being more objective and concrete, but ultimately representation is about subjective message - not statistics. LGBT advocates push for more representation, while conversely, anti-LGBT advocates claim that there are too many or too prominent LGBT characters. The problem is that focusing primarily on the statistics is flawed because it results in an attitude of just fulfilling the stats rather than addressing the causes.

Quote from: Gagarth;1096730It is not just a about faces on the screen (They have already won that battle. Not that there was much of fight since the media corporations had already been thoroughly infiltrated)  it is about who gets employed.  The  intersectionalists and their cis/straight white allies  have already decided every single place of work or institution should have the same demographics as Atlanta, San Francisco  or a sanctuary city in the U.S. or London in the UK. They are already campaigning  for employers to automatically hire  a minority if there are a number of equally qualified applicants.  Not sure about the U.S. but in U.K. this would be perfectly legal already as it his been enshrined in Section 159 of the Equality Act 2010.  How long before the intersectionalists demand that it be legally mandatory the minority automatically get hired..

Here within the U.S., about 1 in 4 people think that gay or lesbian relations should be illegal between consenting adults. (Source: https://news.gallup.com/poll/1651/gay-lesbian-rights.aspx ) That's a minority of the overall population, but still a whole lot of people. And since LGBT acceptance is lower among the older generation, it's almost certainly more than 1 in 4 bosses. Furthermore, there is no national law against employment discrimination based on sexuality, though a minority of states (22) have such a law. So bosses in most states can openly and legally fire someone simply for being gay.

I am opposed to forcing employers to hire LGBT workers, but I also don't think that it's a leading problem among LGBT issues.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1096605Depends on which smug, greedy, well-fed white people you think he's reffering to. Carlin was an equal opportunity offender. His bit about feminism is pretty great.

(Removed the video from the quote; see the linked post if you need more context.)

Offend feminists by going to NOW headquarters or Ms. magazine and asking them to make a meal and provide sex while calling them names? It just seems rude and excessive. Lots of posters here get offended by my polite mainstream opinions. (I am a little disturbed at how many men would apparently think "blow job" when seeing a woman eat a banana; everyone I've ever seen eat a banana takes small bites off the end.)

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1096620We see some of that here, but probably not the people you think it refers to.

Quote from: tenbones;1096631Why? It's true. White-leftist guilt-ridden, moralizing, self-loathing assholes are the ones that pushed all this. Carlin was spot-on.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1096703I'm the guy who says SJWs are the proof "white supremacy" can't exist. No superior race would spawn such garbage. But since the "white race" has not only birthed SJWs, but coddled them in academia and exalted them in the media, any claims to "white supremacy" is laughable.

Well, it didn't take long for the secret decoder rings to come out! And lo! it is revealed that the only white guys Carlin's talking about are the SJWs! Well, no need to put that revelation inside spoiler tags.

The soft language clip was from 1990, and Carlin generally "punched up"; the smug, greedy, well-fed white people he's talking about are clearly those in positions of power. The only change in language that might have been activism driven would be replacing "cripple" with euphemisms; most of his examples are driven by marketing (preowned transportation instead of used cars), by propaganda (the contras as freedom fighters), euphemisms to spare either the listener's or speaker's feelings (the former for circumlocutions and the latter to soften bad news), or to disguise disagreeable actions ("sunshine units" dates from the days when the US government was trying to pretend its nuclear testing had no negative consequences; similarly, the Reagan administration called ketchup a vegetable to downplay its efforts to gut school lunch programs). So businesses promoted running shoes over sneakers because more profit. And legislators and bureaucrats love stilted language (sometimes for precision's sake; a health care provider might be a doctor, a physician's assistant, a registered nurse, etc, or maybe even a clinic or hospital; but an HMO is an insurance entity, not a hospital). "Human Resources" loves to puff up titles rather than pay, and hide ugly things like "firings" behind cheery terms. None of these institutions are or were controlled by progressives, let alone social justice warriors.

QuoteAlso, I empathize with Carlin's anger at "white people" as his was the last generation who could remember the low population USA of dirt roads and vast natural spaces, before the paving over of the beauty of the continent with endless highways, housing tracts and mini-malls.

Your mastery of the secret decoder ring is so great that you circle round to something that's actually bordering on true. But who were the "white people" who ruined this beauty?

Quote from: Shasarak;1096715I would not give old Whitey too much of a hard time, even the Asians fell for it.  Turns out the smarter you are the better you are at justifying bad ideas to yourself.

Wait, did you just suggest that whites or Asians are smarter? Or only the ones who went in for communism? Either way, :eek:

Quote from: rawma;1096800(Removed the video from the quote; see the linked post if you need more context.)

Offend feminists by going to NOW headquarters or Ms. magazine and asking them to make a meal and provide sex while calling them names? It just seems rude and excessive.

The joke (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ddp1pf_MB8) is that feminists (and the larger groups) are easy to offend.

QuoteLots of posters here get offended by my polite mainstream opinions.

I don't think "offended" is an accurate term, perhaps amused or frustrated.

Quote from: rawma;1096800Wait, did you just suggest that whites or Asians are smarter? Or only the ones who went in for communism? Either way, :eek:

No of course I would not say that science has proven Asians are smarter.  I dont want to be hounded off the internet.

Quote from: jhkim;1096651tenbones, let me try this again. You brought up the topic of quotas. I said that I didn't agree with them - that statistics could be an indication of prejudice, but weren't definitive.

You then accused me of claiming that *no one else* ever believed in quotas. If you continue to maintain this - please point the post where I say such.

I'm saying that by you questioning the current status-quo of the RPG industry, you're playing stupid to the realities of the very motives of why things are, currently, the way they are. You're asking questions as if the demand for "diversity" by the marketing departments of WotC (and all the other indy-companies) right along with the rest of the various entertainment industries - forcing *their* views of "diverity" upon everyone because no one else's standard is enough.

That is a *defacto* call for "quotas". That's precisely why I ask you: if you believe that that the RPG industry isn't "diverse" enough - which is the point of this thread - then I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you this is a damnable lie. If not - then either you're playing some kind of rhetorical game/and/or playing stupid. Or in fact you are stupid. (which I don't believe you are.)

WHO gets to decide what is "sufficient" diversity if not the people that choose to partake in the endeavor of gaming itself? I extend this to all things. I don't believe for one second that a company gets to make that call for us as individuals. Much less exact social punishment on those that don't cater to such asinine beliefs.

Quote from: jhkim;1096651Gagarth's examples are about minority (esp. LGBT) representation in media. People like to argue statistics because it gives some impression of being more objective and concrete, but ultimately representation is about subjective message - not statistics. LGBT advocates push for more representation, while conversely, anti-LGBT advocates claim that there are too many or too prominent LGBT characters. The problem is that focusing primarily on the statistics is flawed because it results in an attitude of just fulfilling the stats rather than addressing the causes.

I'm actually not arguing statistics. I think it's a fool's errand to try to push for "representation" in anything. NO ONE is gate-keeping but SJW's. So which is it for you? Are you just discussing both sides? The point of the thread is self-explanatory. Are you pretending that the push for representation in the RPG industry is necessary or not?

Quote from: tenbones;1096820You're asking questions as if the demand for "diversity" by the marketing departments of WotC (and all the other indy-companies) right along with the rest of the various entertainment industries - forcing *their* views of "diverity" upon everyone because no one else's standard is enough.

That is a *defacto* call for "quotas". That's precisely why I ask you: if you believe that that the RPG industry isn't "diverse" enough - which is the point of this thread - then I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you this is a damnable lie. If not - then either you're playing some kind of rhetorical game/and/or playing stupid. Or in fact you are stupid. (which I don't believe you are.)

tenbones, this doesn't parse as English - particularly the part about giving me the benefit of the doubt. I can't tell what that means. But I'll try to comment on the topic.

There is no objectively correct standard of diversity. If 100% of RPG designers were straight white men, that isn't objectively wrong - but conversely, it isn't objectively right. People could try to change it according to their preferences.

What the RPG statistics can't show directly is bigotry. But from other evidence, it's clear that bigotry exists in society. For example, as I noted in another thread, in opinion polls, 1 in 4 Americans think that homosexual relationships should be illegal. I don't think that RPGs are particularly more bigoted than the rest of society, but degrees of bigotry are common everywhere. And the objectively correct standard of bigotry is zero percent.


So I approve of the goal of eliminating bigotry, but I understand that people can make impractical and/or unethical efforts to do so, like calling for quotas or doxxing suspected bigots. However, regarding WotC marketing departments - I don't see how they're immorally forcing views on anyone. They make products and advertisements with a given view. That's not mind control - that's capitalism.

Quote from: jhkim;1096754Here within the U.S., about 1 in 4 people think that gay or lesbian relations should be illegal between consenting adults. (Source: https://news.gallup.com/poll/1651/gay-lesbian-rights.aspx ) That's a minority of the overall population, but still a whole lot of people. And since LGBT acceptance is lower among the older generation, it's almost certainly more than 1 in 4 bosses. Furthermore, there is no national law against employment discrimination based on sexuality, though a minority of states (22) have such a law. So bosses in most states can openly and legally fire someone simply for being gay.

Likewise someone can be fired for being straight/cis or are you trying to say non CIS/Straight and their allies can't own businesses. But you are probably blind to that the way your blind to the effects of the hostility generated towards white people and things considered white in poc communities.  If there was a law based on sexuality it would  still be ok to discriminate against a straight/cis people since attitudes such as those of Jordan Peele are prevalent amongst intersectionalists.  Also nice cheery pick of the LGBT the whole point is there a concerted drive for quotas (quotas based on the demographics I listed above)  for all non-white and /or non-straight/cis.

Quote from: jhkim;1096827tenbones, this doesn't parse as English - particularly the part about giving me the benefit of the doubt. I can't tell what that means. But I'll try to comment on the topic.

There is no objectively correct standard of diversity. If 100% of RPG designers were straight white men, that isn't objectively wrong - but conversely, it isn't objectively right. People could try to change it according to their preferences.

Objectivity cannot have a 'right' or 'wrong'.  It can only be true/correct or false/incorrect.  If 100% of RPG designers were straight white men...that would simply be correct or incorrect.  People cannot 'try' to change that...it is a do or do not situation.  As soon as someone who designs a game is not a straight white male, you have diversity.

Quote from: jhkim;1096827What the RPG statistics can't show directly is bigotry. But from other evidence, it's clear that bigotry exists in society. For example, as I noted in another thread, in opinion polls, 1 in 4 Americans think that homosexual relationships should be illegal. I don't think that RPGs are particularly more bigoted than the rest of society, but degrees of bigotry are common everywhere. And the objectively correct standard of bigotry is zero percent.


So I approve of the goal of eliminating bigotry, but I understand that people can make impractical and/or unethical efforts to do so, like calling for quotas or doxxing suspected bigots. However, regarding WotC marketing departments - I don't see how they're immorally forcing views on anyone. They make products and advertisements with a given view. That's not mind control - that's capitalism.

As soon as I finish throwing up from the sheer audacity of you making this statement, I think I'm gonna go reread your comments from a certain Colorado bakery thread in the other part of the forum.

Quote from: jhkim;1096827So I approve of the goal of eliminating bigotry, but I understand that people can make impractical and/or unethical efforts to do so, like calling for quotas or doxxing suspected bigots. However, regarding WotC marketing departments - I don't see how they're immorally forcing views on anyone. They make products and advertisements with a given view. That's not mind control - that's capitalism.

Now I finally understand the bone of contention since you and Tenbones started this part of the wrangle.  

If that's your point, then I'd say you've made a more sweeping condemnation of SJW popular practices than anyone else here.  If it's positive effect that we are going to measure against, then they've done more to enhance bigotry than anyone since Woodrow Wilson.  

My practical experience with actual bigots in real life (as opposed to, say, reading bigotry into someone else because they disagree with you on some point), is that only the approach taken by Dr. King has any positive effect.  Of course that assumes that the goal is zero bigotry--i.e. actual conversion of bigots to non bigots.   I've seen it from inside a circle of people where the bigots were candid:  All the other arguments (and screaming and rioting and lying and so forth) get peoples' backs up, including bigots.  Whereas I've seen bigots confronted with King's arguments stop, reflect, and then say, "Yes, he is correct."  And then start to change.

For games, one would then assume if I am correct that Pundit's approach is the correct one for reducing bigotry in games (to the extent that there is any).  Everyone gets a voice.  Everyone gets credited as being a person.  And that includes taking the slams when they say something stupid.

Edit:  Replace, a forceful "I am a man!" with "I am a player!".  Get people to say that and mean it.  Then we are done.

I might be an actual bigot but in no way do I represent other people on this forum. I am not against gay marriage. I'm against marriage. Period. I am against same sex parents having children though (for instance via adoption). I think that every child deserves a father and a mother. I'm also against abortions used as birth control. Use contraceptives or fist-fucking, I don't care what. Just don't be a lazy bitch like above. I'm also against quotas in any line of work. Well, more transpeople and bluehaired lesbians would be fun to watch slave in African diamond mines, I might be persuaded out of that bigotry. Oh, and I'm also atheist in the proper sense (without a god, I have no need for gods) and I have a most rational fear of islam and great white sharks.

Quote from: jhkim;1096827tenbones, this doesn't parse as English - particularly the part about giving me the benefit of the doubt. I can't tell what that means. But I'll try to comment on the topic.

There is no objectively correct standard of diversity. If 100% of RPG designers were straight white men, that isn't objectively wrong - but conversely, it isn't objectively right. People could try to change it according to their preferences.

But according to the SJW's, which this thread is *about*, their claim is that the RPG industry (and I extend this out based on the multitudes of "news" stories, social-media "movements", etc. to all of entertainment - arguably beyond) is racist, white-male dominated for the express purposes of oppression of minorities, under their code-terms of "patriarchy" and blanket racist/bigoted views of Caucasians that are heterosexual and in particular, male.

But you *know* this. We've all been talking about it for *years* now. It's completely devoured RPGnet... we could argue it's the grain of sand in many, if not most, threads here which YOU participate in. The SJW's are the ones claiming there is no diversity - the reason why you are talking past me (and others) is because the idea of "diversity" has been co-opted to only mean what they want to define it as. Much like they are blind to their own inherent biases and bigotry as they propose their claims.

Quote from: jhkim;1096827What the RPG statistics can't show directly is bigotry. But from other evidence, it's clear that bigotry exists in society. For example, as I noted in another thread, in opinion polls, 1 in 4 Americans think that homosexual relationships should be illegal. I don't think that RPGs are particularly more bigoted than the rest of society, but degrees of bigotry are common everywhere. And the objectively correct standard of bigotry is zero percent.

I make no claims about society at large. Nothing about what you're saying here 1) is germane to this topic 2) seems to conflate the topic to such a grand scale it ignores the other nuances of looking at reality at this scale 3) the issue is not whether bigotry exists in society - it is whether or not SJW's themselves are the bigots they pretend non-SJW's are in the confines of the spaces we're currently inhabiting. The FACT we're on this forum discussing it, and the fact most of us are banned for having this kind of discussion on one of the largest RPG forums on the net, is probably significant evidence of the problem being on the SJW's not those of us here who largely dismiss the SJW's claims outright.

Quote from: jhkim;1096827So I approve of the goal of eliminating bigotry, but I understand that people can make impractical and/or unethical efforts to do so, like calling for quotas or doxxing suspected bigots. However, regarding WotC marketing departments - I don't see how they're immorally forcing views on anyone. They make products and advertisements with a given view. That's not mind control - that's capitalism.

So are you making the claim that within the confines of social-media WotC and their employees only do "marketing" for the purposes of capitalism? They don't engage in bigotry, or political pandering? Or social-engineering against the very base of fandom that put them on the map? Are you fucking serious? THIS is that point where I make the claim you're being willfully ignorant and obtuse.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1096843My practical experience with actual bigots in real life (as opposed to, say, reading bigotry into someone else because they disagree with you on some point), is that only the approach taken by Dr. King has any positive effect.  Of course that assumes that the goal is zero bigotry--i.e. actual conversion of bigots to non bigots.   I've seen it from inside a circle of people where the bigots were candid:  All the other arguments (and screaming and rioting and lying and so forth) get peoples' backs up, including bigots.  Whereas I've seen bigots confronted with King's arguments stop, reflect, and then say, "Yes, he is correct."  And then start to change.

For games, one would then assume if I am correct that Pundit's approach is the correct one for reducing bigotry in games (to the extent that there is any). Everyone gets a voice. Everyone gets credited as being a person.

Steven Mitchell - I think you're going to have to unpack more about what you see as Dr. King's approach and Pundit's approach. This implies a connection, but I don't see resemblance between them. Dr. King tended to preach socialism to packed crowds of black people, which is very different from what I see as Pundit's tone and message. I think Dr. King, Pundit, and myself are all very different in approach.

I agree with you in that my personal preference is that everyone gets a voice and everyone is credited as being a person. It seems to me the best shot at converting people to be less bigoted. But I'm wary of saying that it's the best or the only way -- because success seems really difficult to measure.


To tenbones --

Quote from: tenbonesYou're asking questions as if the demand for "diversity" by the marketing departments of WotC (and all the other indy-companies) right along with the rest of the various entertainment industries - forcing *their* views of "diverity" upon everyone because no one else's standard is enough.

Quote from: jhkimSo I approve of the goal of eliminating bigotry, but I understand that people can make impractical and/or unethical efforts to do so, like calling for quotas or doxxing suspected bigots. However, regarding WotC marketing departments - I don't see how they're immorally forcing views on anyone. They make products and advertisements with a given view. That's not mind control - that's capitalism.

Quote from: tenbones;1096853So are you making the claim that within the confines of social-media WotC and their employees only do "marketing" for the purposes of capitalism? They don't engage in bigotry, or political pandering? Or social-engineering against the very base of fandom that put them on the map? Are you fucking serious? THIS is that point where I make the claim you're being willfully ignorant and obtuse.

I don't think that any of bigotry, pandering, or social engineering are exclusive of marketing. A whole lot of marketing - including successful marketing - is pandering. And I already believe there is plenty of bigotry in marketing. I'm actually not sure what you consider "social engineering".

I don't actually follow WotC marketing, so I have no opinion about the content of what they say. But even if I disagree with what they say, I don't think that their social media posts are *forcing* their views on me. They're expressing their views, and I can disagree with them. Can you point to what this forcing looks like?

Quote from: tenbones;1096853But according to the SJW's, which this thread is *about*, their claim is that the RPG industry (and I extend this out based on the multitudes of "news" stories, social-media "movements", etc. to all of entertainment - arguably beyond) is racist, white-male dominated for the express purposes of oppression of minorities, under their code-terms of "patriarchy" and blanket racist/bigoted views of Caucasians that are heterosexual and in particular, male.

SJWs should be clubbed over the head repeatedly with the Rules Cyclopedia till they get a clue.
Page 3. African looking fellow in the lineup.
Page 6. Two guys sitting together looking way more happy than they should. You be the judge! ;)
Page 15. ghasparoonies a girl!
Page 20. Another african looking person.
Page 21. Another girl! Might be a gypsy too.
Page 25. Another girl. What is the world coming to?
and so on.

Quote from: tenbones;1096853But according to the SJW's, which this thread is *about*, their claim is that the RPG industry (and I extend this out based on the multitudes of "news" stories, social-media "movements", etc. to all of entertainment - arguably beyond) is racist, white-male dominated for the express purposes of oppression of minorities, under their code-terms of "patriarchy" and blanket racist/bigoted views of Caucasians that are heterosexual and in particular, male.

You're choosing a very sweeping interpretation.  

Since I have been branded an SJW, let me clarify.  

Essentially, jhkim's contention is correct.  There are 300 Million + people in the United States and some of them are extremely bigoted - whether against a sect or religion (Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Satanists, etc), a race (blacks, Africans, Asians, Italians, Roma, etc), a gender (women, trans-) a sexual preference (homosexual, bi-sexual, pansexual, etc) or something else.  It's normal enough that you don't have to look very hard to find these people.  Often they're very eager to express their opinions about why one group or another doesn't deserve to be treated as people.  Because some significant number of people are bigoted, and there's no reason to think that players or RPGs are any less bigoted than the general population (or other groups where bias and bigotry has been a problem like the military, the police, and many other individual businesses), there's no reason to think that bias and bigotry CAN'T exist among people who play RPGs.  It doesn't have to be among all groups for it to be seen as a problem...  Many groups are very stable, they don't typically recruit new players for years at a time and no matter how open-minded they might be, they may not be the first group that people encounter.  If people who play RPGs have the same distribution of prejudice as the general population, some new players will encounter it and may find that it turns them off the hobby completely.  

Some people are very welcoming in this hobby.  That's a good thing.

Some people are very UNwelcoming in this hobby.  That's a bad thing.  

Since there isn't a system set up to ensure that people first interact with welcoming people, it becomes a crap-shoot.  Saying 'I was once new to this hobby and nobody made me feel unwelcome' doesn't invalidate the experience of someone else who's experience wasn't as positive.  Understanding that some groups experience more bias than others, it's even less convincing when a straight white male playing in a group entirely composed of other straight white males helpfully explains how they never experienced discrimination as if that proves that historically discriminated against groups couldn't have had the experience of being discriminated against.

Let me sum this thread up after 35 pages. The future of RPGing is thus:

1) The only players "welcome" in the hobby will be SJWs and those nodding in obedience to their dogma.

2) All the "unwelcome" deplorables will gather on forums such as these and build their own RPG community with like minded evil scum. Surely there are enough of us to host a kickass convention.

I say bring it on. Do you really want to game with SJW assholes who demand obedience to their dogma, rewrite our hobby's history and try to force you to parrot their bullshit out of fear of being ostracized?  

Fuck that shit.

All of us can rally a half dozen unrepentant enemies of humanity to roll dice and eat cheetos.

Quote from: jhkim;1096876Steven Mitchell - I think you're going to have to unpack more about what you see as Dr. King's approach and Pundit's approach. This implies a connection, but I don't see resemblance between them. Dr. King tended to preach socialism to packed crowds of black people, which is very different from what I see as Pundit's tone and message. I think Dr. King, Pundit, and myself are all very different in approach.

I agree with you in that my personal preference is that everyone gets a voice and everyone is credited as being a person. It seems to me the best shot at converting people to be less bigoted. But I'm wary of saying that it's the best or the only way -- because success seems really difficult to measure.

Success is extremely easy to measure as long as reality is faced.  Do you know someone who is a bigot?  What works to get them to stop being a bigot?  That's it.  All other measurements are pipe dreams.  Now, if you want something that you can quantify at some national level report, then no, that cannot be measured--by anyone.  Heck, that couldn't even be measure back when "social scientists" thought all this stuff could be quantified, and before the populace got so sick of them and polls that they started lying to surveys on a routine basis just to screw with the numbers.

Any with Dr. King, I'm not talking about his economic or political messages--which were rather unclear and sometimes contradictory to each other and his stated purpose, but rather his cultural and religious ones--which were very clear.  To be entirely clear, also, I'm also not concerned with or addressing in this topic whether any of those message are necessarily correct, merely their effectiveness.  Stated plainly, when he appeals to people with a point something like--treat me the same as everyone else, because I'm a human being with hopes and dreams, who works the same as you, lives like you, and is blessed by God the same as you--that message resonates--even with many bigots.  Now, my opinion on why it resonates is that there is no weasel answer that can finesse a response, and it is too direct to avoid it.  Only a highly educated person can finesse it, and those types are typically too arrogant to avoid it.  While there are highly educated bigots, they aren't consequential enough to worry about for speech purposes.  

As to why I see a connection with Pundit, I'll point out just one:  We are having this discussion on a free speech site where the object of the free speech is the more people who get to talk, the more likely we are to find a correct/useful/whatever answer.  A SJW says, "Shut up, and let the [insert minority flavor of the week] talk.  If the rest of you behave, we'll let you listen to them."  Whereas at the heart of King's approach is, "I get to talk, the same as you.  If you find my words convincing, you are welcome to listen."  A sincere, reality-based SJW--as unlikely as that idea sounds--would never try to get anyone banned for anything from any game.  They certainly wouldn't be screaming about representation problems or otherwise interfering with products or organizing boycotts.  Instead, they'd be working on product that had the ideas, characters, etc. that they wanted out there.  Instead, what we have is this group that wants other people more talented than them to do their creative heavy lifting for them.

That's more or less how I run my games.  Anyone that is willing to let other people be themselves (as games, appropriate to the venue) gets to participate.  People that want to shut other people down--or dominate the game with stuff that isn't about the game--those I exclude, because they've violated the social contract of the thing.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1096850I might be an actual bigot but in no way do I represent other people on this forum. I am not against gay marriage. I'm against marriage. Period. I am against same sex parents having children though (for instance via adoption). I think that every child deserves a father and a mother. I'm also against abortions used as birth control. Use contraceptives or fist-fucking, I don't care what. Just don't be a lazy bitch like above. I'm also against quotas in any line of work. Well, more transpeople and bluehaired lesbians would be fun to watch slave in African diamond mines, I might be persuaded out of that bigotry. Oh, and I'm also atheist in the proper sense (without a god, I have no need for gods) and I have a most rational fear of islam and great white sharks.

All I got from this was "fist-fucking great white sharks", which is bold, sir.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1096884You're choosing a very sweeping interpretation.  

Since I have been branded an SJW, let me clarify.  

Essentially, jhkim's contention is correct.  There are 300 Million + people in the United States and some of them are extremely bigoted - whether against a sect or religion (Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Satanists, etc), a race (blacks, Africans, Asians, Italians, Roma, etc), a gender (women, trans-) a sexual preference (homosexual, bi-sexual, pansexual, etc) or something else.

What these lists are missing shows exactly why you fucking leftist SJWs are all brain damaged assholes.  It is another example of leftist SJW blindness which has been all over this thread.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1096884Since there isn't a system set up to ensure that people first interact with welcoming people, it becomes a crap-shoot.  Saying 'I was once new to this hobby and nobody made me feel unwelcome' doesn't invalidate the experience of someone else who's experience wasn't as positive.  

Nor does it validate the idea that the vast majority of non-white males who approached a rpg group were told to fuck off.  This is the idea that is being used to fuel the SJW jihad.

Quote from: Gagarth;1096937What these lists are missing shows exactly why you fucking leftist SJWs are all brain damaged assholes.

I noticed the same thing. Interesting how only straight, white men are bigots, huh? How stupid is it that saying everyone should try to ignore sex and skin color and just be good to each other is in itself, considered bigoted? It's not, obviously, but without ists and isms, SJWs don't have anything to beat others into submission with.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1096893Success is extremely easy to measure as long as reality is faced.  Do you know someone who is a bigot?  What works to get them to stop being a bigot?  That's it.  All other measurements are pipe dreams.  Now, if you want something that you can quantify at some national level report, then no, that cannot be measured--by anyone.  Heck, that couldn't even be measure back when "social scientists" thought all this stuff could be quantified, and before the populace got so sick of them and polls that they started lying to surveys on a routine basis just to screw with the numbers.

Any with Dr. King, I'm not talking about his economic or political messages--which were rather unclear and sometimes contradictory to each other and his stated purpose, but rather his cultural and religious ones--which were very clear.  To be entirely clear, also, I'm also not concerned with or addressing in this topic whether any of those message are necessarily correct, merely their effectiveness.  Stated plainly, when he appeals to people with a point something like--treat me the same as everyone else, because I'm a human being with hopes and dreams, who works the same as you, lives like you, and is blessed by God the same as you--that message resonates--even with many bigots.  Now, my opinion on why it resonates is that there is no weasel answer that can finesse a response, and it is too direct to avoid it.  Only a highly educated person can finesse it, and those types are typically too arrogant to avoid it.  While there are highly educated bigots, they aren't consequential enough to worry about for speech purposes.  

As to why I see a connection with Pundit, I'll point out just one:  We are having this discussion on a free speech site where the object of the free speech is the more people who get to talk, the more likely we are to find a correct/useful/whatever answer.  A SJW says, "Shut up, and let the [insert minority flavor of the week] talk.  If the rest of you behave, we'll let you listen to them."  Whereas at the heart of King's approach is, "I get to talk, the same as you.  If you find my words convincing, you are welcome to listen."  A sincere, reality-based SJW--as unlikely as that idea sounds--would never try to get anyone banned for anything from any game.  They certainly wouldn't be screaming about representation problems or otherwise interfering with products or organizing boycotts.  Instead, they'd be working on product that had the ideas, characters, etc. that they wanted out there.  Instead, what we have is this group that wants other people more talented than them to do their creative heavy lifting for them.

That's more or less how I run my games.  Anyone that is willing to let other people be themselves (as games, appropriate to the venue) gets to participate.  People that want to shut other people down--or dominate the game with stuff that isn't about the game--those I exclude, because they've violated the social contract of the thing.

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Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1096897All I got from this was "fist-fucking great white sharks", which is bold, sir.

Bold indeed, lol. In fact too bold for me. I save that moment for Ocean "marine biologist but dumb as a rock" Ramsey who likes to swim and pester great whites. She reminds me of Timothy Treadwell.

Jeff, don't know why you would roll your eyes at that.  I'm well aware of that dynamic and have commented on it before, in this forum, multiple times.  That's why the type of people that use that tactic are excluded from my games.  The only way to win that game is not to play.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1096884You're choosing a very sweeping interpretation.  

Since I have been branded an SJW, let me clarify.  

Essentially, jhkim's contention is correct.  There are 300 Million + people in the United States and some of them are extremely bigoted - whether against a sect or religion (Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Satanists, etc), a race (blacks, Africans, Asians, Italians, Roma, etc), a gender (women, trans-) a sexual preference (homosexual, bi-sexual, pansexual, etc) or something else.  It's normal enough that you don't have to look very hard to find these people.  Often they're very eager to express their opinions about why one group or another doesn't deserve to be treated as people.  Because some significant number of people are bigoted, and there's no reason to think that players or RPGs are any less bigoted than the general population (or other groups where bias and bigotry has been a problem like the military, the police, and many other individual businesses), there's no reason to think that bias and bigotry CAN'T exist among people who play RPGs.  It doesn't have to be among all groups for it to be seen as a problem...  Many groups are very stable, they don't typically recruit new players for years at a time and no matter how open-minded they might be, they may not be the first group that people encounter.  If people who play RPGs have the same distribution of prejudice as the general population, some new players will encounter it and may find that it turns them off the hobby completely.  

Some people are very welcoming in this hobby.  That's a good thing.

Some people are very UNwelcoming in this hobby.  That's a bad thing.  

Since there isn't a system set up to ensure that people first interact with welcoming people, it becomes a crap-shoot.  Saying 'I was once new to this hobby and nobody made me feel unwelcome' doesn't invalidate the experience of someone else who's experience wasn't as positive.  Understanding that some groups experience more bias than others, it's even less convincing when a straight white male playing in a group entirely composed of other straight white males helpfully explains how they never experienced discrimination as if that proves that historically discriminated against groups couldn't have had the experience of being discriminated against.

The *contention* from SJW's *IN* the RPG space - i.e. the loudest, most obnoxious, people what either are part of the publishing/design teams, or indy-scene, and/or their fandom, is that until their arrival the RPG "community" is largely unwelcoming to their ilk, including neutral people they've co-opted that aren't white, or are LGBT that don't really agree.

The counter claim - by Pundit, and many of us here - including "POC" like myself is this is, and I'll use a technical term "HORSESHIT" (no offense meant if you identity as an Equus or are a general animal lover, or a "Scat enthusiast"... okay maybe if the latter).

Your response is to flood the zone with what is actually nonsensical and non-contextual facts. Nonsensical because 300-million people in the US *do not* play RPGs. Non-contextual because of those that DO play - a paltry number by DIRECT comparison - when in fact there is *nothing* preventing anyone of any stripe from participating/organizing/creating/playing table-top RPG's any way they want. Your very statement is the inverse of what these people are claiming (not sure if you realize that) - you're claiming that LGBT/POC, because they may have feelings that they are "non-normative" or whatever - they are *walking* into the sphere assuming things about those not like them. They're bringing their own biases, justified or not, into the setting.

Further - rather than engaging on their own to make the game their own thing, which is what I advocate for. They engage in activism to change the state of the medium to suit their ends at the expense of everyone else that *are not like them*. And here's the thing - this is not about representation. But no one should be under any obligation to partake in *anything* they don't want to be invested in. So while one can say "Well WotC is now full of ideologues and this is how they want to portray their content. You can do what you advocate and go play your games your way." - which I do. Likewise I create my own games to play the way I want. You know... which anyone can do.

But you don't get to pretend that the RPG fanbase has not been inclusive from the start. The same is true of comics, movies, etc. You want representation to be sufficient to your own standards? Go create it. You are owned nothing for your own needs by others. Nothing is stopping you except the illusion that those that aren't invested in your pet-identity label of choice *should* be by some corporate fiat or social-mob mandate. That's not "representation". That's co-option and coercion.

Quote from: tenbones;1096952Further - rather than engaging on their own to make the game their own thing, which is what I advocate for. They engage in activism to change the state of the medium to suit their ends at the expense of everyone else that *are not like them*. And here's the thing - this is not about representation. But no one should be under any obligation to partake in *anything* they don't want to be invested in. So while one can say "Well WotC is now full of ideologues and this is how they want to portray their content. You can do what you advocate and go play your games your way." - which I do. Likewise I create my own games to play the way I want. You know... which anyone can do.

But you don't get to pretend that the RPG fanbase has not been inclusive from the start. The same is true of comics, movies, etc. You want representation to be sufficient to your own standards? Go create it. You are owned nothing for your own needs by others. Nothing is stopping you except the illusion that those that aren't invested in your pet-identity label of choice *should* be by some corporate fiat or social-mob mandate. That's not "representation". That's co-option and coercion.

A glaring example of this cognitive dissonance is the Batwoman show. They applaud her strength and how she's so brave and forging her own path...after she stole the identity and equipment of a man. They can and will not see their insanity.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1096954A glaring example of this cognitive dissonance is the Batwoman show. They applaud her strength and how she's so brave and forging her own path...after she stole the identity and equipment of a man. They can and will not see their insanity.

The examples stretch to nearly *every* thing this ideology has touched.

A better challenge is to show me where it has succeeded *without* co-opting something already established? Then let's talk about that "success"...

Quote from: tenbones;1096962The examples stretch to nearly *every* thing this ideology has touched.

A better challenge is to show me where it has succeeded *without* co-opting something already established? Then let's talk about that "success"...

I doubt it's possible. My example was just one of many examples that've been hopping around Nerd Land lately.

Quote from: tenbones;1096962The examples stretch to nearly *every* thing this ideology has touched.

A better challenge is to show me where it has succeeded *without* co-opting something already established? Then let's talk about that "success"...

LOL, where has it succeeded even co-opting something already established? Ghostbusters2016, Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who, Marvel Comics, the CUW, Marvel movies. They will claim Captain Wahmen "succeeded" but it made money only because they lied about people needing to see it to understand End Game (very fitting name). And I left out the glaring "Successes" in Video Games.

If you're not unwelcoming, nobody is asking you to change.  If you're not unwelcoming it doesn't mean that you can't admit or accept that some people might be unwelcoming, or even that those people might give the hobby in general a bad reputation.  How many lawn-shitters have to be tolerated before there's a problem?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1096967If you're not unwelcoming, nobody is asking you to change.  If you're not unwelcoming it doesn't mean that you can't admit or accept that some people might be unwelcoming, or even that those people might give the hobby in general a bad reputation.  How many lawn-shitters have to be tolerated before there's a problem?

I'll just leave this here

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Quote from: GeekyBugle;1096966LOL, where has it succeeded even co-opting something already established? Ghostbusters2016, Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who, Marvel Comics, the CUW, Marvel movies. They will claim Captain Wahmen "succeeded" but it made money only because they lied about people needing to see it to understand End Game (very fitting name). And I left out the glaring "Successes" in Video Games.

:) That goes without saying... for those of us that know these things are now ruined.

*They* don't see that. It's the proverbial "no raindrop thinks it's responsible for the flood."

And worse, they're so pathologically narcissistic they don't care, because they're so focused on their own feelings, they don't really give a fuck about anyone else's, while demanding we focus on them. The we engage in their habits as if we *ought* to care. That our own desires are somehow wrong because of it. And worse: anything outside of their invisible bubble only they can see - is wrought of evil.

Well... that's one way to go through life. I don't recommend it.

"The fundamental condition of Life is suffering, but there is no need to turn the volume up to 12 on it. That's stupid."

- Some Jackass

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1096967If you're not unwelcoming, nobody is asking you to change.  If you're not unwelcoming it doesn't mean that you can't admit or accept that some people might be unwelcoming, or even that those people might give the hobby in general a bad reputation.  How many lawn-shitters have to be tolerated before there's a problem?

All of them because the definition of "unwelcoming" is subjective and also none of them because people can choose not to game with those they find "unwelcoming".

Would my white, male friend be able to wear his MAGA hat at any public gaming table or to any gaming convention? I’ve known him for years and at his worst he’s never shit on a lawn. What injustice would he be committing wearing such a hat?

Quote from: tenbones;1096970:) That does without saying... for those of us that know these things are now ruined.

*They* don't see that. It's the proverbial "no raindrop thinks it's responsible for the flood."

And worse, they're so pathologically narcissistic they don't care, because they're so focused on their own feelings, they don't really give a fuck about anyone else's, while demanding we focus on them. The we engage in their habits as if we *ought* to care. That our own desires are somehow wrong because of it. And worse: anything outside of their invisible bubble only they can see - is wrought of evil.

Well... that's one way to go through life. I don't recommend it.

"The fundamental condition of Life is suffering, but there is no need to turn the volume up to 12 on it. That's stupid."

- Some Jackass

What's baffling is how they're orchestrating their own demise. We tolerated them because, well, we're tolerant. The insipid fools turned inches into miles and used that against us. Now, after being branded evil and cruel and every other negative term imaginable no matter our actions, the damn is breaking and the sane with little to lose are beginning to rouse and turn a mature, measured rage against these buffoons.

Their unspoken claims are "You're not tolerating us *enough*."

Which is funny when they set upon themselves - like when Lesbians get accused of being Transphobic for refusing to have relations with trans-women. They ignore the basic reality that one isn't required to be as involved as you in your "shit".

Quote from: tenbones;1096978Their unspoken claims are "You're not tolerating us *enough*."

Which is funny when they set upon themselves - like when Lesbians get accused of being Transphobic for refusing to have relations with trans-women. They ignore the basic reality that one isn't required to be as involved as you in your "shit".

When other people start telling me who I can have relations with then they can fuck off back to their own safe space and wax their hairy balls themselves.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1096947Jeff, don't know why you would roll your eyes at that.  I'm well aware of that dynamic and have commented on it before, in this forum, multiple times.  That's why the type of people that use that tactic are excluded from my games.  The only way to win that game is not to play.

Well, fuck. I hit the wrong target. Sorry about that.

Serves me right for posting after a 15 hour shift.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1096884You're choosing a very sweeping interpretation.  

Since I have been branded an SJW, let me clarify.  

Essentially, jhkim's contention is correct.  There are 300 Million + people in the United States and some of them are extremely bigoted - whether against a sect or religion (Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Satanists, etc), a race (blacks, Africans, Asians, Italians, Roma, etc), a gender (women, trans-) a sexual preference (homosexual, bi-sexual, pansexual, etc) or something else.  It's normal enough that you don't have to look very hard to find these people.  Often they're very eager to express their opinions about why one group or another doesn't deserve to be treated as people.  Because some significant number of people are bigoted, and there's no reason to think that players or RPGs are any less bigoted than the general population (or other groups where bias and bigotry has been a problem like the military, the police, and many other individual businesses), there's no reason to think that bias and bigotry CAN'T exist among people who play RPGs.  It doesn't have to be among all groups for it to be seen as a problem...  Many groups are very stable, they don't typically recruit new players for years at a time and no matter how open-minded they might be, they may not be the first group that people encounter.  If people who play RPGs have the same distribution of prejudice as the general population, some new players will encounter it and may find that it turns them off the hobby completely.  

Some people are very welcoming in this hobby.  That's a good thing.

Some people are very UNwelcoming in this hobby.  That's a bad thing.  

Since there isn't a system set up to ensure that people first interact with welcoming people, it becomes a crap-shoot.  Saying 'I was once new to this hobby and nobody made me feel unwelcome' doesn't invalidate the experience of someone else who's experience wasn't as positive.  Understanding that some groups experience more bias than others, it's even less convincing when a straight white male playing in a group entirely composed of other straight white males helpfully explains how they never experienced discrimination as if that proves that historically discriminated against groups couldn't have had the experience of being discriminated against.

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In the 80's we were attacked by the sportsball players and the "cool kidz". I remember the girls who would not date us, I remember hearing how we were all Nerds and worse. I remember people of every ethnicity, male and female, Straight, Gay and everything else hanging out at my parents place just trying not to get beaten up on a daily basis. Everyone was welcome at our game table. Today we are attacked by SJW lairs rewriting history to please them. They spoil everything they touch.

Quote from: Shasarak;1096987When other people start telling me who I can have relations with then they can fuck off back to their own safe space and wax their hairy balls themselves.

Hairy cunts actually. Its been women pushing for total control over who marries who for ages. And some want that level of power back. They want to tell every woman what they can and cant do. While of course not being under those rules themselves. This is why my friend despises Feminism as it has turned into this.

Quote from: Omega;1096995Hairy cunts actually. Its been women pushing for total control over who marries who for ages. And some want that level of power back. They want to tell every woman what they can and cant do. While of course not being under those rules themselves. This is why my friend despises Feminism as it has turned into this.

Are we talking about the same hairy balls (https://twitter.com/rickygervais/status/1152601740740403201)?

What do you have against tennis? :cool:

Quote from: deadDMwalkingSince there isn't a system set up to ensure that people first interact with welcoming people, it becomes a crap-shoot. Saying 'I was once new to this hobby and nobody made me feel unwelcome' doesn't invalidate the experience of someone else who's experience wasn't as positive.

Quote from: Gagarth;1096937Nor does it validate the idea that the vast majority of non-white males who approached a rpg group were told to fuck off.  This is the idea that is being used to fuel the SJW jihad.

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Quote from: tenbones;1096952The *contention* from SJW's *IN* the RPG space - i.e. the loudest, most obnoxious, people what either are part of the publishing/design teams, or indy-scene, and/or their fandom, is that until their arrival the RPG "community" is largely unwelcoming to their ilk, including neutral people they've co-opted that aren't white, or are LGBT that don't really agree.

The counter claim - by Pundit, and many of us here - including "POC" like myself is this is, and I'll use a technical term "HORSESHIT"

Personally, I think both of the following are equally horseshit:
1) No RPG player has ever been bigoted or unwelcoming
2) The majority of all RPG players have always been bigoted and unwelcoming to anything but straight white males

Compared to the rest of society, I think that RPGs have been relatively inclusive. But that doesn't mean we were perfectly welcoming to everyone - because the rest of society has had plenty of prejudice. I know that when I was starting RPGs in the 1970s, my group was myself (half-Korean), an Armenian immigrant kid, and a Jewish kid. But that doesn't mean that we didn't have any prejudices. I'm not sure we would have welcomed a kid who was out as gay. I didn't know of any kids who were out, and for good reason, because it was a huge stigma at the time.

There have been and still are prejudiced RPG players, even here in this thread.

Quote from: tenbones;1096952But you don't get to pretend that the RPG fanbase has not been inclusive from the start. The same is true of comics, movies, etc. You want representation to be sufficient to your own standards? Go create it. You are owned nothing for your own needs by others. Nothing is stopping you except the illusion that those that aren't invested in your pet-identity label of choice *should* be by some corporate fiat or social-mob mandate. That's not "representation". That's co-option and coercion.

This is exactly backwards. "Corporate fiat"??  If you don't like what some company like Paizo or WotC makes, then buy from a different company or just make your own stuff. There are tons of options out there.

On the other hand, if you want WotC to produce stuff according to your tastes, then you're going to have to lobby them more effectively than other groups are lobbying them. Again, that's fucking capitalism. Unless you're a 51% stockholder of WotC, you don't own them, and they may produce stuff that you don't like. That's life.

Quote from: jhkim;1097014...

Personally, I think both of the following are equally horseshit:
1) No RPG player has ever been bigoted or unwelcoming
2) The majority of all RPG players have always been bigoted and unwelcoming to anything but straight white males

Compared to the rest of society, I think that RPGs have been relatively inclusive. But that doesn't mean we were perfectly welcoming to everyone - because the rest of society has had plenty of prejudice. I know that when I was starting RPGs in the 1970s, my group was myself (half-Korean), an Armenian immigrant kid, and a Jewish kid. But that doesn't mean that we didn't have any prejudices. I'm not sure we would have welcomed a kid who was out as gay. I didn't know of any kids who were out, and for good reason, because it was a huge stigma at the time.

There have been and still are prejudiced RPG players, even here in this thread.

But no one person represents the entirety of the RPG world. You know that. You're sitting there presenting both extremes of the side and pretending that the vast center isn't where the real discussion is being had -or fought. Which relegates your, once again, outlining the obvious as obvious as some kind of opinion that stands for nothing.

So either you don't actually understand what the thread is about. Or you're playing stupid (my contention). Or you're so obtuse or cowardly you're unable or unwilling to admit to the real issue.

Quote from: jhkim;1097014.This is exactly backwards. "Corporate fiat"??  If you don't like what some company like Paizo or WotC makes, then buy from a different company or just make your own stuff. There are tons of options out there.

Playing stupid again. Pretending I haven't actually answered this multiple times. Playing stupid twice more - pretending that WotC, Paizo, RPGnet, OPP, and other major RPG developers or their employees haven't promoted their dumb SJW politics in-and-out of game, haven't attacked the gaming public for not buying into their stupid ideology, pretending that these things *matter* in some manner WITHIN the context of the game.

Okay... this is about too many stupid strikes.

Quote from: jhkim;1097014.On the other hand, if you want WotC to produce stuff according to your tastes, then you're going to have to lobby them more effectively than other groups are lobbying them. Again, that's fucking capitalism. Unless you're a 51% stockholder of WotC, you don't own them, and they may produce stuff that you don't like. That's life.

I want good things. Way to obfuscate the point of the thread. Way to not read the posts. If you actually did read these posts, you'd see that capitalism is ultimately what will force this issue. Because *I* don't play D&D. I've said this for *years*... Eh whatever, Forrest.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1096813The joke (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ddp1pf_MB8) is that feminists (and the larger groups) are easy to offend.

If they are so easy to offend, why does Carlin suggest going so far? Maybe the joke is on those who laugh at something that works so hard to demonstrate "easy". "Hey, it's so easy to beat up one of those boxing champions! Just start by nuking them from orbit!"

QuoteI don't think "offended" is an accurate term, perhaps amused or frustrated.

I don't think so. But unless you've actually gone to a group of feminists to say Carlin's over-the-top statement that you are certain will offend them, you can't even claim direct observation of how feminists would react to it. Maybe feminists would more often be amused or frustrated with the statement that was supposed to offend them.

Quote from: rawma;1096598I was surprised that you would endorse the statement that "Smug, greedy, well-fed white people have invented a language to conceal their sins. It's as simple as that."

The vast majority of SJWs are smug greedy well-fed white people inventing language to conceal their sins.

Quote from: Shasarak;1096816No of course I would not say that science has proven Asians are smarter.  I dont want to be hounded off the internet.

Pity you don't seem to care whether things you might say are not true, and more pitiable that you are happy to imply them.

Quote from: rawma;1097026Pity you don't seem to care whether things you might say are not true, and more pitiable that you are happy to imply them.

Who do you think I am, the "speak truth to power" guy?  I am also not the "teach pigs to sing" guy either so maybe you could use your pity on someone like the Sword Dream clan.

Quote from: Shasarak;1097033Who do you think I am, the "speak truth to power" guy?  I am also not the "teach pigs to sing" guy either so maybe you could use your pity on someone like the Sword Dream clan.

Why should anyone believe anything you say, if you don't care whether the things you say are true?

Quote from: rawma;1097034Why should anyone believe anything you say, if you don't care whether the things you say are true?

Should anyone believe anything that I say?  Thats a little too philosophical for a RPG message board.

Quote from: rawma;1097024If they are so easy to offend, why does Carlin suggest going so far? Maybe the joke is on those who laugh at something that works so hard to demonstrate "easy". "Hey, it's so easy to beat up one of those boxing champions! Just start by nuking them from orbit!"

Why are you asking me? I'm not Carlin.

Quote from: rawma;1096598I was surprised that you would endorse the statement that "Smug, greedy, well-fed white people have invented a language to conceal their sins. It's as simple as that."

Quote from: rawma;1097026Pity you don't seem to care whether things you might say are not true, and more pitiable that you are happy to imply them.

Quote from: rawma;1097034Why should anyone believe anything you say, if you don't care whether the things you say are true?

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Quote from: deadDMwalking;1096967If you're not unwelcoming, nobody is asking you to change.  If you're not unwelcoming it doesn't mean that you can't admit or accept that some people might be unwelcoming, or even that those people might give the hobby in general a bad reputation.  How many lawn-shitters have to be tolerated before there's a problem?

Maybe if the lawn-shitters start breaking into peoples homes/game stores/conventions  and hacking into their online games and prevent them from playing or when they take over the RPG publishing industry and mandate that no setting have any poc representation. Your whole fallacy that groups of white male bigots playing in the their  KKK parents basement would have told some imaginary poc kid that randomly turned up to fuck defines the historical past of the hobby is bullshit. Of course if a white kid turned up at a game in South Central LA and got told to fuck off you would be all for it.

Quote from: Gagarth;1097071Of course if a white kid turned up at a game in South Central LA and got told to fuck off you would be all for it.

Why do you think that?

Quote from: rawma;1097026Pity you don't seem to care whether things you might say are not true, and more pitiable that you are happy to imply them.

Why do you think he has to only imply it?

Do you personally think that IQ tests have any significance at all?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1096967If you're not unwelcoming, nobody is asking you to change.  If you're not unwelcoming it doesn't mean that you can't admit or accept that some people might be unwelcoming, or even that those people might give the hobby in general a bad reputation.  How many lawn-shitters have to be tolerated before there's a problem?

I didn't agree with the title of this thread. The idea that people who claim that they weren't welcome are lying is ungenerous. My first impulse is to say "I'm sorry that happened to you; let's get together and game some time." However, there are so many such claims in a hobby where I have experience almost none of that behavior that I believe the individuals but I know there is a set of false memes circulating.

As to how many bigots we can tolerate? In a sense, all of them. If a bigot isn't at my table, why should I seek them out? I had one racist virulently racist gamer in my game in the 1980s, with two Black players, a Hispanic player and a Jewish GM, me. No one at the table let any of his bullshit pass. But we didn't preemptively  kick him out and he behaved himself. I had three of my players decide that their characters would be bigoted toward the Native American player-character, which was rather likely, given the setting. Not being the thought-police, I didn't hassle them.

The *hilarity* of this thread and the whole point of this discussion - is that it CAN ONLY HAPPEN ON THIS FORUM... and that you have people playing coy about the very title of the thread and the topic matter as if it's true, is almost beyond conception.

Part of the *very* reason this forum continues to grow and thrive is because of the fundamental premise that this discussion could only happen here because of the very topic-matter the title of this thread is about is what isolated the majority of the people on this thread *by* SJW's who are intolerant and banned us from pretty much everywhere else. Yet here we are, with the rare unicorn SJW's willing to speak, pretending it's not a thing.


Sweet Galactus... this is too funny.

The last ten pages of this thread are ridiculous. Apparently there are racist boogeymen (or persons, trying to be inclusive!) around every fucking corner of the RPG world, just itching for the chance to prevent some poor black child from ever setting foot inside a gaming store, much less rolling dice during a session of D&D. Of course, the best part is they're all WHITE MALES(tm) who make the KKK look welcoming; no minority ever excluded anyone at any time. What a fucking joke.

Even if it was all true, so what? Start your own group. All you need is a couple friends, but maybe that's the issue: SJWs don't actually have friends.

OP Contention: The Hobby Always Welcomed Everyone!

Consensus Opinion: Some people in the hobby have been unwelcoming, so not everyone was always welcome.  

New direction of debate: Sure, people were excluded, but it wasn't only white guys excluding PoC.   I'm a victim too.

Quote from: Brad;1097140The last ten pages of this thread are ridiculous. Apparently there are racist boogeymen (or persons, trying to be inclusive!) around every fucking corner of the RPG world, just itching for the chance to prevent some poor black child from ever setting foot inside a gaming store, much less rolling dice during a session of D&D. Of course, the best part is they're all WHITE MALES(tm) who make the KKK look welcoming; no minority ever excluded anyone at any time. What a fucking joke.

Even if it was all true, so what? Start your own group. All you need is a couple friends, but maybe that's the issue: SJWs don't actually have friends.

Good call on SJWs not having friends.

Quote from: dungeon crawler;1097149Good call on SJWs not having friends.

Well, you can't really have 'friends' when you may need to sacrifice them on the purity altar to save yourself someday. ;)

Let me correct a few things... Bolded is mine.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1097148OP Contention: The Hobby Always Welcomed Everyone!

Consensus Opinion: SJWs in the hobby have been unwelcoming, and not everyone was always welcome. But SJW's took over the largest publishers and infected many of the smaller publishers with their ideology which they then inserted into their games, then took to social media to get revenge on anyone that does not share their views, by doing the exact thing they accuse others of doing - which they largely never did.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1097148New direction of debate: Sure, people were excluded, but it wasn't only white guys excluding PoC.   I'm a victim too.

Well when you feed POC's and LGBT+ identitarians,  a constant urine stream of being inferior, but with a free sedative to their poor ailing tummies that the real blame is the Evil Versions of "us" Whites (SJW's ideology is largely perpetuated by white left-leaning folks)- complete with revisionist history and censoring mechanisms, public shaming, lies, propaganda, false accusations, and overt attacks on your non-game related livelihood...

I'm not sure how much traction you're going to get with that. Being a victim is a lucrative, if temporary, status position in Western society these days. But when that well runs dry... that hangover is going to be the mother of all of bitches.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1097148OP Contention: The Hobby Always Welcomed Everyone!

Consensus Opinion: Some people in the hobby have been unwelcoming, so not everyone was always welcome.

To me that is trying to conflate two different things: The Roleplaying Hobby and the People within the Roleplaying Hobby.

You just can not say that the Hobby is unwelcoming because one particular person gave you a hard time.  That is just an anecdote not evidence of anything in particular.

QuoteNew direction of debate: Sure, people were excluded, but it wasn't only white guys excluding PoC.   I'm a victim too.

Dont be so quick to grab that victim label.  The more I hear about it the more I think that it is a sugar coated poison pill.  I would recommend a concrete pill instead.

Well, to be fair, SJW's do not only lie about the hobby being unwelcoming.  That's merely one item in their long list of lies.  They also lie about their behavior, their motives, and frequently even reality.  So asking them to tell the truth about something as minor as who shunned who in the gaming early days is akin to asking a baby to win an Olympic swim meet.

Quote from: Shasarak;1097158I would recommend a concrete pill instead.

I recommend playing games with people you enjoy.

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1097135I didn't agree with the title of this thread. The idea that people who claim that they weren't welcome are lying is ungenerous.

Re-read the title. It says SJWs are liars. Not actual people who might have real issues. (or imagined ones) because Ive known a few who just believed SJW lies and avoided RPGs because they are all so unwelcoming. See where this leads?

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1097167Well, to be fair, SJW's do not only lie about the hobby being unwelcoming.  That's merely one item in their long list of lies.  They also lie about their behavior, their motives, and frequently even reality.  So asking them to tell the truth about something as minor as who shunned who in the gaming early days is akin to asking a baby to win an Olympic swim meet.

I don't know? Some babies can swim better than I. :o
Why are you oppressing babies entering the olympics? You monster!

And to add to that list. These SJWs will only defend us as long as it serves their agenda. Once they have what they want then oh hay look. This minority is soooooo horrible! Look at all the priviliges they get over normal white (or the current pet minority) people. We have to put a stop to this and promote equality! Because this is exactly what has happened before and will happen again. And it will happen in RPGs when it suits a company. That has happened before too.

Quote from: tenbones;1097153Let me correct a few things... Bolded is mine.





Well when you feed POC's and LGBT+ identitarians,  a constant urine stream of being inferior, but with a free sedative to their poor ailing tummies that the real blame is the Evil Versions of "us" Whites (SJW's ideology is largely perpetuated by white left-leaning folks)- complete with revisionist history and censoring mechanisms, public shaming, lies, propaganda, false accusations, and overt attacks on your non-game related livelihood...

I'm not sure how much traction you're going to get with that. Being a victim is a lucrative, if temporary, status position in Western society these days. But when that well runs dry... that hangover is going to be the mother of all of bitches.

Aren't you like some really fucked up minority or something? Blasian a la Tiger Woods? Who are you to tell white people they're full of shit? Bigot.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1097173I recommend playing games with people you enjoy.

AC wins the thread.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1097121Why do you think that?

You know why.  I not going to illustrate your wokeness so you can crack one out while you read it.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1097228AC wins the thread.

Thanks, boo. That's the "...for Dummies"
version for those who can learn tons of rules but not choose friends wisely. ;)

Quote from: rawma;1097024If they are so easy to offend, why does Carlin suggest going so far? Maybe the joke is on those who laugh at something that works so hard to demonstrate "easy". "Hey, it's so easy to beat up one of those boxing champions! Just start by nuking them from orbit!"



I don't think so. But unless you've actually gone to a group of feminists to say Carlin's over-the-top statement that you are certain will offend them, you can't even claim direct observation of how feminists would react to it. Maybe feminists would more often be amused or frustrated with the statement that was supposed to offend them.

The ignorance of your post simply proves the point he was trying to make. Sun Tzu would scold us for interrupting you...

Quote from: rawma;1097034Why should anyone believe anything you say, if you don't care whether the things you say are true?

Quote from: Shasarak;1097043Should anyone believe anything that I say?  Thats a little too philosophical for a RPG message board.

I'll be more direct; say what you actually think rather than coyly hinting at it. This forum rarely bans people for expressing unpopular opinions.

I give people the benefit of the doubt here a lot; conversely, lots of people are sure they know the secret reasons for what I say, no matter what else I say. If you say you believe something stupid, I will believe that you believe that stupid thing. ;)

Quote from: tenbones;1097124Why do you think he has to only imply it?

Shasarak will have to explain that, if you're not satisfied with fear of being hounded off the internet (pretty unlikely, especially here).

QuoteDo you personally think that IQ tests have any significance at all?

Testing that correlates with various forms of success (school, jobs) has proven value. (IQ testing apparently does not correlate with wealth, so "If you're so smart, how come you're not rich?" is a baseless gibe.) The Flynn effect seems to indicate that it's not particularly genetic, though. And experiments where teachers were told that certain students were expected to excel based on testing, when the students were chosen randomly but do subsequently excel, would seem to support other reasons for differences. The history of IQ testing is of course filled with misuse to serve racist agendas; standardized testing for college admission seems to have started to exclude Jews from Ivy League schools (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2001/12/17/examined-life).

For IQ specifically, I'll fall back on the Sidney Harris cartoon -- "You did very well on your I.Q. test. You're a man of 49 with the intelligence of a man of 53." So, when will you share your fantasy heartbreaker with a penalty to Intelligence scores for blacks? Or will you at least rant about the apparent race of the Wizard illustration in the 5e PHB?

Now I know my low fantasy game will make many of the right people reeeeeeeeee in abject fauxtrage, best free advertisement I couldn't ask for.

Quote from: rawma;1097352I'll be more direct; say what you actually think rather than coyly hinting at it. This forum rarely bans people for expressing unpopular opinions.

I give people the benefit of the doubt here a lot; conversely, lots of people are sure they know the secret reasons for what I say, no matter what else I say. If you say you believe something stupid, I will believe that you believe that stupid thing. ;)

Shasarak will have to explain that, if you're not satisfied with fear of being hounded off the internet (pretty unlikely, especially here).

Testing that correlates with various forms of success (school, jobs) has proven value. (IQ testing apparently does not correlate with wealth, so "If you're so smart, how come you're not rich?" is a baseless gibe.) The Flynn effect seems to indicate that it's not particularly genetic, though. And experiments where teachers were told that certain students were expected to excel based on testing, when the students were chosen randomly but do subsequently excel, would seem to support other reasons for differences. The history of IQ testing is of course filled with misuse to serve racist agendas; standardized testing for college admission seems to have started to exclude Jews from Ivy League schools (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2001/12/17/examined-life).

For IQ specifically, I'll fall back on the Sidney Harris cartoon -- "You did very well on your I.Q. test. You're a man of 49 with the intelligence of a man of 53." So, when will you share your fantasy heartbreaker with a penalty to Intelligence scores for blacks? Or will you at least rant about the apparent race of the Wizard illustration in the 5e PHB?

Virtue signalling is the conspicuous expression of moral values.[1] Academically, the phrase relates to signalling theory and describes a subset of social behaviors that could be used to signal virtue--especially piety among the religious.[2] In recent years, the term has been more commonly used within groups to criticize those who are seen to value the expression of virtue over action. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling)

Quote from: jeff37923;1097357Virtue signalling is the conspicuous expression of moral values.[1] Academically, the phrase relates to signalling theory and describes a subset of social behaviors that could be used to signal virtue--especially piety among the religious.[2] In recent years, the term has been more commonly used within groups to criticize those who are seen to value the expression of virtue over action. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling)

Quote from: WikipediaCriticism

Jane Coaston of the The New York Times notes that in using the term "virtue signalling" one is "trying to signal something about their own values: that they are pragmatic, appropriately cynical, in touch with the painful facts of everyday life". In The Guardian, David Shariatmadari argues that this makes it "indistinguishable from the thing it was designed to call out" adding that it is "smug posturing from a position of self-appointed authority." Neoliberal political theorist and economist Sam Bowman, criticized the term claiming that "saying virtue signalling is hypocritical. It's often used to try to show that the accuser is above virtue signalling and that their own arguments really are sincere".

Adam Smith Institute Executive Director Sam Bowman opined that the meaning of the term popularised by James Bartholomew misuses the concept of signalling and encourages lazy thinking. In The Guardian, Zoe Williams suggested the phrase was the "sequel insult to champagne socialist" while fellow Guardian writer David Shariatmadari says that while the term serves a purpose, its overuse as an ad hominem attack during political debate has rendered it a meaningless political buzzword. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling#Criticism)

Obviously jeff37923 the stalker is describing his own conduct:

• using the phrase "virtue signalling" in order to virtue signal;
• smug posturing from a position of self-appointed authority;
• hypocritical;
• lazy thinking;
• overuse as an ad hominem attack;
• meaningless political buzzword.

Yes, that's jeff37923 the stalker. I'd say shine on, you crazy diamond, but you're more a golf ball in the rough.

Quote from: rawma;1097352I'll be more direct; say what you actually think rather than coyly hinting at it. This forum rarely bans people for expressing unpopular opinions.

I give people the benefit of the doubt here a lot; conversely, lots of people are sure they know the secret reasons for what I say, no matter what else I say. If you say you believe something stupid, I will believe that you believe that stupid thing. ;)

If you dont mind I will just say what I want to say and I will let you do the same.

Quote from: rawma;1097366fap fap fap

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Quote from: jeff37923;1097357In recent years, the term has been more commonly used within groups to criticize those who are seen to value the expression of virtue over action.[/URL]

Not quite. It seems to get fairly often applied to those who's actions are supposed to display how virtuous they are.
"Look! Look at me! See! I stood up (well more like hid behind a monitor like a coward) to that misogynist (who really isnt but I need to score my quota for the day) and called him/her/it a Nazi! See how upright and virtuous I am!"

or

"Look! Look at me! I made this game that is totally inclusive and welcoming to all! It was made totally by white women, (and a few black slaves we put on the team, and this trans guy we tolerate for PR purposes!) We didnt allow any straight white males in at all! See how upright and virtuous I am!"

and so on ad nausium.

And people seem to find this sort of virtue signalling more offensive than the passive/aggressive trolling sort.

Bringing back the thread to RPGs, yes the hobby was always welcoming, were there some rotten apples? I never found one but yes, I'm sure there were. But to jump from a few rotten apples to label everybody as rotten is a huge leap.

I dare say the "inclusive" and "tolerant" cabal is the worst offender in being exclusionary and intolerant, since almost all of them seem to want to establish purity tests and send to the gulag those not pure enough.

Sadly for them even if they managed to totally co-opt the big names they would still find they don't control the hobby. I suspect some realized this and from here springs their need to either co-opt or replace the OSR.

And all thanks to the OGL and the rule-sets placed under it or a similar license. How can they stop me from writing a game, self-publish a pdf and sell it dirt cheap?

How can they stop me from printing (if needed) copies of all the free pdfs I already have?

Not even if they managed to force DT to not sell anything without the woke authority seal of approval would they be able to control the hobby, they got to it about 10-15 years too late for that. Oh wonderful technology that will allow us to out sell them and mock them while they REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

The biggest thing that seems to offend SJWs in tabletop RPG gaming is that no matter what they do, they can't stop those they find deplorable from playing.

As Doc Sammy says upthread, since the safe space crowd is finding that their social power is waning and businesses are catching on that to get woke is to go broke, they have begun to feed upon themselves in ever more rigorous purity tests which only accelerates their self-destruction.

Meanwhile, the deplorable rest of us, just keep on gaming.

In my own case, there might be merit for criticism for the rpg groups I have been a part of not being inclusive enough. Skin colour has never been one reason why though. But I am far from 100% inclusive. I want you all to ask yourselves, would you feel and act inclusive if THIS IS WHO YOUR NEW GAMING GROUP MEMBER WAS:

Spoiler

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Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097389In my own case, there might be merit for criticism for the rpg groups I have been a part of not being inclusive enough. Skin colour has never been one reason why though. But I am far from 100% inclusive. I want you all to ask yourselves, would you feel and act inclusive if THIS IS WHO YOUR NEW GAMING GROUP MEMBER WAS:

Spoiler

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3646[/ATTACH]

Not if he/she/it is going to show up naked or if it's an ideologue from either side of the spectrum. Other than that? You do you i do me and if you're not a dick then lets game on.

Quote from: tenbones;1097124Do you personally think that IQ tests have any significance at all?

Yes, to determine the scope of developmental delay with children who suffer some form of brain damage or retardation in growth.

Perhaps to determine where rare individuals rank at the high end, mostly to compare nerd brain penises.

Absolutely not as an understanding or ranking of ethnic groups or nations.

Is it possible there are genetic differences in intelligence based on ethnic groups? Maybe, but the IQ tests used are utterly not up to the task to determine truth and the political climate disallows any such research to be discussed openly and honestly. Perhaps this might even be for the best.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097389I want you all to ask yourselves, would you feel and act inclusive if THIS IS WHO YOUR NEW GAMING GROUP MEMBER WAS:

I'm not gonna fuck it (even with your dick) but if a freak of the week shows up to my game table at a convention, and they are fun to play with and add to my game experience, they are absolutely welcome back. I don't need fuck buddies, I need fun players.

If a new player looks "totally normal" and acts like an asshole, they can fuck off to Adventurer's League or Pathfinder Society.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1097390Not if he/she/it is going to show up naked or if it's an ideologue from either side of the spectrum. Other than that? You do you i do me and if you're not a dick then lets game on.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1097397I'm not gonna fuck it (even with your dick) but if a freak of the week shows up to my game table at a convention, and they are fun to play with and add to my game experience, they are absolutely welcome back. I don't need fuck buddies, I need fun players.

If a new player looks "totally normal" and acts like an asshole, they can fuck off to Adventurer's League or Pathfinder Society.

I'm pretty much on board with what they say.

My only caveat is that if the Player's appearance or hygiene drives away Players who have been there longer or contributed to the fun more, then that guy will be talked to (if the talk doesn't fix things, they will be told to leave).

(https://media.giphy.com/media/xIGBcxNMnnOMw/giphy.gif)

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097411(https://media.giphy.com/media/xIGBcxNMnnOMw/giphy.gif)

I don't know why your shocked or shocked.

You asked the question you also don't get to be surprised and shocked when others disagree completely. It is as if you expected everyone to be on your side and agree with you completely.

Quote from: sureshot;1097426I don't know why your shocked or shocked.

You asked the question you also don't get to be surprised and shocked when others disagree completely. It is as if you expected everyone to be on your side and agree with you completely.

I get to be what I want to be. Some pissy little gnome on the other side of the Atlantic won't dedice how I will feel about something. If I want to be shocked and surprised, I will be. I didn't expect the wokeness, the inclusiveness and the lack of honesty. I expected someone to feel like I feel. But I am the only prejudiced asshole in this forum it seems. I wanted some sugar, I got salt. Well, fuck you all then. I can be my on my own team. Hell, I might even form an unholy alliance with rawma or whatever his name is.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097428I get to be what I want to be. Some pissy little gnome on the other side of the Atlantic won't dedice how I will feel about something. If I want to be shocked and surprised, I will be. I didn't expect the wokeness, the inclusiveness and the lack of honesty. I expected someone to feel like I feel. But I am the only prejudiced asshole in this forum it seems. I wanted some sugar, I got salt. Well, fuck you all then. I can be my on my own team. Hell, I might even form an unholy alliance with rawma or whatever his name is.

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Quote from: jeff37923;1097430....
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(https://media.giphy.com/media/QnMJm9bVR9nDa/giphy.gif)

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097428I get to be what I want to be. Some pissy little gnome on the other side of the Atlantic won't dedice how I will feel about something. If I want to be shocked and surprised, I will be. I didn't expect the wokeness, the inclusiveness and the lack of honesty. I expected someone to feel like I feel. But I am the only prejudiced asshole in this forum it seems. I wanted some sugar, I got salt. Well, fuck you all then. I can be my on my own team. Hell, I might even form an unholy alliance with rawma or whatever his name is.

So you wanted an honest answer to a question you asked. Were then given an answer and now your pissed, angry and acting like an immature manchild because it is not the one you wanted.

Talk about textbook hypocrite demanding an echo chamber than rage quitting because we refuse to provide him with one.

As for making an alliance with Rawma good luck with that. I maybe speaking for him yet he or whatever his gender is wants nothing to do with you. Rawma is rather woke and inclusive. You think he is going to join forces with you. Sure. He would rather watch you burn rather than piss on you to put out the flames.

Looks like another one came here to get a validating echo chamber and then rage quit because the rest of the forum refused to give it to him.

Quote from: rawma;1097366

• using the phrase "virtue signalling" in order to virtue signal;
• smug posturing from a position of self-appointed authority;
• hypocritical;
• lazy thinking;
• overuse as an ad hominem attack;
• meaningless political buzzword.

Seems more like rawma's list of "Six Steps to SocJus" than any serious critique on others.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1097438Seems more like rawma's list of "Six Steps to SocJus" than any serious critique on others.

More like standard SJW boilerplate denial that they are doing what they are doing.  SJW:  They'd lie when the truth would do better.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1097441More like standard SJW boilerplate denial that they are doing what they are doing.  SJW:  They'd lie when the truth would do better.

Absolutely, rawma just put himself in the crosshairs so I pulled the trigger.

Quote from: sureshot;1097437Fap
Fap
Fap
Fap

(https://media.giphy.com/media/ZB6ODrmqag1BC/giphy.gif)

Now, I'm not quitting the forum. I'm just quitting all-inclusive assfucks. And as far as Rawma goes, he shall be on my team. Be sure of that. I know he has potential to be more than just another SJW. He will be on my GLORIOUS team. Team Kill It With Fire. We will form the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of this forum. And if he would be foolish enough to refuse, he will be fed to the pigs just like you. An echo chamber for one isn't such a bad thing. I will get better answers for sure.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/rVZEejvVWEbug/giphy.gif)

Quote from: Brad;1097193Aren't you like some really fucked up minority or something? Blasian a la Tiger Woods? Who are you to tell white people they're full of shit? Bigot.

HAHA well in fairness... I tell everyone they're full of shit. You should see how I bomb on my own cannibal, headhunting, dog-eating relatives.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097457(https://media.giphy.com/media/ZB6ODrmqag1BC/giphy.gif)

Now, I'm not quitting the forum. I'm just quitting all-inclusive assfucks. And as far as Rawma goes, he shall be on my team. Be sure of that. I know he has potential to be more than just another SJW. He will be on my GLORIOUS team. Team Kill It With Fire. We will form the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of this forum. And if he would be foolish enough to refuse, he will be fed to the pigs just like you. An echo chamber for one isn't such a bad thing. I will get better answers for sure.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/rVZEejvVWEbug/giphy.gif)

A Fapping meme

(Golfclap)

Congratulations you showed me  you can search the Internet.

If your not going to like the answers then don't ask the questions in the first place. Given how as non-inclusive or woke you claim to be you then expect to recruit one of the more as opposite as can be members of the forum.

Delusion and denial are alive and well on you I see. Thank you for showing myself and everyone else your true colors. Intolerance all around for pretty much anything you disagree with.

But hey keep posting those memes manchild. While continually proving to be nothing but a disingenuous troll.

Given how you changed your Avatar to a picture of two men kissing wirh a meme of some guy fapping off are you possibly having a coming out of your own.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097457(https://media.giphy.com/media/ZB6ODrmqag1BC/giphy.gif)

Now, I'm not quitting the forum. I'm just quitting all-inclusive assfucks. And as far as Rawma goes, he shall be on my team. Be sure of that. I know he has potential to be more than just another SJW. He will be on my GLORIOUS team. Team Kill It With Fire. We will form the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of this forum. And if he would be foolish enough to refuse, he will be fed to the pigs just like you. An echo chamber for one isn't such a bad thing. I will get better answers for sure.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/rVZEejvVWEbug/giphy.gif)

This is a rather odd manifesto. And is that dude trying to rip it off? Holy shit, son! The request for eye contact was kind of creepy, by the way.

Quote from: sureshot;1097469A Fapping meme

(Golfclap)

Congratulations you showed me  you can search the Internet.

If your not going to like the answers then don't ask the questions in the first place. Given how as non-inclusive or woke you claim to be you then expect to recruit one of the more as opposite as can be members of the forum.

Delusion and denial are alive and well on you I see. Thank you for showing myself and everyone else your true colors. Intolerance all around for pretty much anything you disagree with.

But hey keep posting those memes manchild. While continually proving to be nothing but a disingenuous troll.

What did he do to get so ruffled? The source of rage eludes me.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1097472What did he do to get so ruffled? The source of rage eludes me.

He expected everyone on the forum to no longer think for themselves, while expecting zero push back on what he posts. The opposite is happening and he is having a  immature public meltdown.

All because some posters here when he asked the question would you allow this person to join your game at post #410. Some here said yes and cue the mental breakdown.

Quote from: rawma;1097352Shasarak will have to explain that, if you're not satisfied with fear of being hounded off the internet (pretty unlikely, especially here).

Ahh, so then you do know why he has to imply those things. And who are these people doing the hounding exactly? And under what pretenses are those things happening? You, like jhkim are pretending these things are some mysterious force that rises up against wrong-speak and they're unknowable?

Playing stupid is unbecoming of *all* of us. You because you're too chicken shit to call the duck a duck. And us because we're at least trying to have the conversation in good faith.

Quote from: rawma;1097352Testing that correlates with various forms of success (school, jobs) has proven value. (IQ testing apparently does not correlate with wealth, so "If you're so smart, how come you're not rich?" is a baseless gibe.) The Flynn effect seems to indicate that it's not particularly genetic, though. And experiments where teachers were told that certain students were expected to excel based on testing, when the students were chosen randomly but do subsequently excel, would seem to support other reasons for differences. The history of IQ testing is of course filled with misuse to serve racist agendas; standardized testing for college admission seems to have started to exclude Jews from Ivy League schools (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2001/12/17/examined-life).

For IQ specifically, I'll fall back on the Sidney Harris cartoon -- "You did very well on your I.Q. test. You're a man of 49 with the intelligence of a man of 53." So, when will you share your fantasy heartbreaker with a penalty to Intelligence scores for blacks? Or will you at least rant about the apparent race of the Wizard illustration in the 5e PHB?

Another chicken shit response. So your *very* answer is a classic example of the problem. You say IQ doesn't matter - then provide correctly that is does correlate to some of the most important aspects of living today in the modern world. Then water it down with strawman assertion *NO ONE MADE*. Then made an assertion and strawman of *me* characterizing my position without even asking me what mine was?

Here's the funny thing - why is it you jumped immediately to "penalty to Intelligence scores for blacks" trying to link something you're pretending is subjective, to a fantasy game, then insinuating the opposite in practice as if people in this discussion believe that? WHY is that? I've certainly never said or advocated such things. Why would you? Why would you single out a "black" wizard as an example? Because, I dunno if you know this... but "black people" are humans in real life, newsflash. Humans don't get in Int-penalties in makebelieve games. Why would you extrapolate this out to actual people in this discussion?  You're sitting there trying to conflate your own personal views that "black people" have Low IQ's and pushing it on people in some fake outrage (at best) and insipid accusation of bigotry at worst - WHILE trying to say IQ has no real relevance in real life, while contradicting yourself in your own words.

This is the bigotry of the left in full glory.

I'll give Intelligence penalties to Orcs. Is that racist? Go on, answer it. Or conversely in your fantasy heartbreaker - all races have the same stats and genders because everything is exactly the same?

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097428I get to be what I want to be. Some pissy little gnome on the other side of the Atlantic won't dedice how I will feel about something. If I want to be shocked and surprised, I will be. I didn't expect the wokeness, the inclusiveness and the lack of honesty. I expected someone to feel like I feel. But I am the only prejudiced asshole in this forum it seems. I wanted some sugar, I got salt. Well, fuck you all then. I can be my on my own team. Hell, I might even form an unholy alliance with rawma or whatever his name is.

So, you thought you'd get positive social feedback for your position - but instead posters disagreed with you. That's signaling, looking for social reward. However, this isn't an echo chamber for your ideas. I agree with others that signaling and mob mentality is something that happens, especially within partisan echo chambers. TheRPGsite isn't one of those, though.

-------

To loop back to tenbones - You've been making a lot of ad-hominem attacks, but I think the core is that we're talking past each other because of different assumptions.

Quote from: jhkimCompared to the rest of society, I think that RPGs have been relatively inclusive. But that doesn't mean we were perfectly welcoming to everyone - because the rest of society has had plenty of prejudice.

Quote from: tenbones;1097021But no one person represents the entirety of the RPG world. You know that. You're sitting there presenting both extremes of the side and pretending that the vast center isn't where the real discussion is being had -or fought. Which relegates your, once again, outlining the obvious as obvious as some kind of opinion that stands for nothing.

No one person represents the RPG world, but overall, it is represented by a collection of people and products. The issue is how do we generalize? Binary answers of either "the hobby was welcoming" vs "the hobby was unwelcoming" are largely meaningless. Even individual people aren't a binary of perfectly unbigoted versus completely bigoted. The underlying question isn't - but how much prejudice there was in the hobby. However, it's not clear how to quantify that. It's not like we can even argue whether the hobby was 40% prejudiced versus 10% prejudiced, because there's no clear meaning of what X% prejudiced is.

I do think that the RPG hobby has historically been less prejudiced on many fronts than mainstream society, but prejudice still existed. As I noted, anti-LGBT prejudice was common and mainstream in the 1970s, so I think it was also in the hobby.

Quote from: tenbonesYou want representation to be sufficient to your own standards? Go create it. You are owned nothing for your own needs by others. Nothing is stopping you except the illusion that those that aren't invested in your pet-identity label of choice *should* be by some corporate fiat or social-mob mandate. That's not "representation". That's co-option and coercion.

Quote from: jhkimThis is exactly backwards. "Corporate fiat"?? If you don't like what some company like Paizo or WotC makes, then buy from a different company or just make your own stuff. There are tons of options out there.

Quote from: tenbones;1097021Playing stupid again. Pretending I haven't actually answered this multiple times. Playing stupid twice more - pretending that WotC, Paizo, RPGnet, OPP, and other major RPG developers or their employees haven't promoted their dumb SJW politics in-and-out of game, haven't attacked the gaming public for not buying into their stupid ideology, pretending that these things *matter* in some manner WITHIN the context of the game.

I have commented on this, but you continue talking past me. I am not denying that WotC has promoted politics. Companies do express politics. I am saying that WotC should be able to express whatever politics they want - just as Pundit expresses *his* politics while promoting *his* games. Regardless of what politics WotC says, it's not mind control that forces anything on you.

To summarize my position again, I don't think that RPGs are an important vector for political ideas. So I'm fine with SJW companies making SJW games as well as conservative companies making conservative games, and other companies making further variations. I might disagree with a company's politics, but that means I'll either ignore it or express disagreement with it - not that I'll bitch that they're exercising corporate fiat over me.

Quote from: sureshot;1097473He expected everyone on the forum to no longer think for themselves, while expecting zero push back on what he posts. The opposite is happening and he is having a  immature public meltdown.

All because some posters here when he asked the question would you allow this person to join your game at post #410. Some here said yes and cue the mental breakdown.

Based solely on that very unflattering picture, they give me a bad vibe. I could certainly be wrong about them and wouldn't be rude or mean to them out of hand if I met them in person. If we got along and had similar tastes in gaming, they'd be welcome to throw dice. That said, it's odd to present something so clearly drastic as a metric for acceptance. A better one might be, I dunno, Blair White? Or better yet, everyone stop trying to one-up the "Gotcha!" over phantom people with ephemeral problems chased by a very real, and bizarre, outrage.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097428I didn't expect the wokeness, the inclusiveness and the lack of honesty. I expected someone to feel like I feel. But I am the only prejudiced asshole in this forum it seems.

We have many members and many lurkers. Many of them probably agree with you. Only a couple of us disagreed, and that's good. You don't want an echo chamber. They are fucking boring. It's why RPG.net sucks ebola soaked donkey balls.

Yes, I'm "inclusive" in regards to judging gamers only by what they bring to the game table. I'm certainly not woke and I post honestly because why the fuck not? It's way more fun to give blunt and honest answers. And I'm all about the LOLz.

Understand my perspective. I live in Hollyweird. California prided itself on being the home of fruits, nuts and flakes 50 years ago and the hippy attitude of "its all good man" has morphed into "look at me, look at me, I demand you salute my freak flag".

Due to how I've arranged my life, my gaming is a combo of "sporadic and intense", aka I'll game 8-12 hours a month, often in just one day. I attend cons and FLGS game days so my gaming crew is a combo of my regular beloved scumbucket of hellish bastards plus random strangers.

Strangers in LA sometimes come in many weird flavors. Convention etiquette demands GMs offer seats to players who show up. However, I stack the deck. I'm a headbanger whose wardrobe is mostly concert shirts. Not a "listened to metal when I was a kid" guy, but a "moshed last week, got pit tix to Behemoth" guy. I'm the guy who wears the fucked up Cannibal Corpse shirt that panics soccer moms in grocery stores and I absolutely love it. And then I'm upfront about the game I'm running which weeds out even more people. So when a bizarro person shows up to my table, hears my pitch and then sits down? Most likely they are there for the game and most behave just fine for the next 4 hours.  

But like I said, I stack the deck. The vast majority of people I don't want to game with don't go near my table. Those curious few who don't belong usually run when they hear my pitch, or when they see the wretched hive of scum and villainy who would be their fellow players. Those who jump through all those hoops are mostly good players...or players who bail after 10 minutes which is also cool. I'd rather game with 2 good players than 6 crapsack players.

That's all I'm asking out of my game table. Can everyone roll dice and add to the play experience? If so, that's awesome and I want them back for the next session. If not, then they're useless to me.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097428Well, fuck you all then. I can be my on my own team.

We're all on our own team. We're all born alone and die alone. The best we can hope for are "imperfect allies", people who we can tolerate and work with enough to push the ball in the general direction we would prefer.

Quote from: tenbones;1097480You because you're too chicken shit to call the duck a duck.

Dude! Ducks know each other. That means the ducks can contact Howard and nobody wants to risk that.  

And plenty of ducks have memorized the Firearrow rune. You can't be too careful around ducks.

Or geese!!

Quote from: jhkim;1097482To loop back to tenbones - You've been making a lot of ad-hominem attacks, but I think the core is that we're talking past each other because of different assumptions.

Not exactly. They became ad-hominem because the only conclusion that can be drawn is you're being purposely OBTUSE or you're actually stupid. I've said repeatedly I don't think you are stupid. But it's like you're insisting that you are, because you simply, until now, won't admit what is patently obvious about the position that this thread is *actually* about... but we'll talk about this below...

Quote from: jhkim;1097482No one person represents the RPG world, but overall, it is represented by a collection of people and products. The issue is how do we generalize?

I'm going to parse this for your own edification. I agree with you here. You just drew a nice generalized circle I can agree with. It's big and general. Fine. We'll start with this.

Quote from: jhkim;1097482Binary answers of either "the hobby was welcoming" vs "the hobby was unwelcoming" are largely meaningless.

Wrong. It's meaningful because in point of fact - people of differing races, gender, sexual proclivities, legal status, genetic malfunction, religion, race, nationality, cultural background, social class, parentage, and probably a host of other conditions and statuses I can't think of, have *never* expressly been forbidden from engaging with this hobby at its inception.

THAT a demographically identifiable pattern emerged is *irrelevant* to this claim because there was no overt push towards it by *design* or by coercive means.

Quote from: jhkim;1097482Even individual people aren't a binary of perfectly unbigoted versus completely bigoted. The underlying question isn't - but how much prejudice there was in the hobby. However, it's not clear how to quantify that. It's not like we can even argue whether the hobby was 40% prejudiced versus 10% prejudiced, because there's no clear meaning of what X% prejudiced is.

Read my post above. That renders this IRRELEVANT. Because as you're going to say - you can do whatever the fuck you want with your makebelief elf-game at your table. No one is overtly telling you how to engage with the game. The game at its inception and for many years did not advocate for any kind of specific narrow band of players to engage as a policy. So this point you're making is POINTLESS.

Quote from: jhkim;1097482I do think that the RPG hobby has historically been less prejudiced on many fronts than mainstream society, but prejudice still existed. As I noted, anti-LGBT prejudice was common and mainstream in the 1970s, so I think it was also in the hobby.

So you're going to castigate the entire hobby because you believe that it was mainstream and common to castigate LGBT's in the 70's. Despite the fact that the "culture" of gaming is itself at its inception an outlier, and non-sexual, non-racial, non-gendered, non-everything as a conceit, you're playing this game of cultural relativism and *massive* over-generalization for the purposes of making an assumption that you can neither prove, nor support reasonably. But we CAN look at how the fandom of RPG's has reacted *since* gaming companies and their employees have politicized all of these things in the gaming-space online and anecdotally in real-space.

Quote from: jhkim;1097482I have commented on this, but you continue talking past me. I am not denying that WotC has promoted politics. Companies do express politics. I am saying that WotC should be able to express whatever politics they want - just as Pundit expresses *his* politics while promoting *his* games. Regardless of what politics WotC says, it's not mind control that forces anything on you.

Very good. But you're making the Pathological Post-Modern mistake of asserting "all politics" are equal. WotC isn't promoting inclusivity. Pundit's products are for everyone to play. He is the Employee and publisher. WotC's employees are actively *against* people of certain belief, and *race* - not just in the game, but AS a business practice https://twitter.com/mtg_lee/status/1148371234897326080?lang=en

Oh and we can provide more, but *WHAT'S THE POINT*? We already know all this. Why is it such a leap of logic to see that this is racist and if this kind of shit was how D&D was going to be marketed from the inception, it likely wouldn't exist. But this is why I call you being obtuse to the point of lunacy. You're literally dancing around it like it's not a thing. Worse: you pretend it ISN'T what it actually IS. This is extremely bigotted, and it's extremely short-sighted of WotC - so much so, by you ignoring it, it calls into question the very definitions of what you think "SJW" and "Conservative" means when you're pretending to engage in these discussions.

Quote from: jhkim;1097482To summarize my position again, I don't think that RPGs are an important vector for political ideas. So I'm fine with SJW companies making SJW games as well as conservative companies making conservative games, and other companies making further variations. I might disagree with a company's politics, but that means I'll either ignore it or express disagreement with it - not that I'll bitch that they're exercising corporate fiat over me.

Way to peripherally stay on topic and dance around the gorilla under the floor-mat of the room.

Quote from: tenbones;1097496WotC isn't promoting inclusivity. Pundit's products are for everyone to play. He is the Employee and publisher. WotC's employees are actively *against* people of certain belief, and *race* - not just in the game, but AS a business practice https://twitter.com/mtg_lee/status/1148371234897326080?lang=en

Holy fuck.

If anyone reads that message from WotC and still buys their products, you know what you're supporting.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1097500Holy fuck.

If anyone reads that message from WotC and still buys their products, you know what you're supporting.

They could pull a Jessica Price and shit-can the guy for taking to Twitter promoting views that don't align with the company's high moral and ethical standards. That'd make me happy enough to overlook it.

Quote from: jhkim;1097482No one person represents the RPG world, but overall, it is represented by a collection of people and products. The issue is how do we generalize? Binary answers of either "the hobby was welcoming" vs "the hobby was unwelcoming" are largely meaningless.

I agree, but I think it's worth noting the context in which this particular discussion is taking place. This thread and others like it didn't start in response to someone saying that the gaming/rpg hobby in the 70s (or 80s or whenever) reflected to a large extent the common attitudes and prejudices of that era. If that's all that was being said I doubt anyone would object.

However, almost as soon as nerdy interests became acceptable in mainstream culture a subset of clickbait online writers began to declare that the people previously participating in nerdish hobbies (before the enlightened writers showed up) are worse than Hitler. The pushback is against the bullshit claim that people who spent years minding their own business playing elfgames that the rest of the world dismissed as pathetic were all along actually evil elitist gatekeeping bullies who were shutting out the wretched unwashed masses who desperately wanted to play rpgs all along.

I wouldn't claim that rpgers are uniquely free of attitudes and prejudices that are part of the larger culture, but at the same time I don't see any need to humor a bunch of twits who apparently are incapable of enjoying any activity unless they have a victim narrative to go along with it.

Quote from: tenbones;1097496WotC's employees are actively *against* people of certain belief, and *race* - not just in the game, but AS a business practice https://twitter.com/mtg_lee/status/1148371234897326080?lang=en

Quote from: Spinachcat;1097500Holy fuck.

If anyone reads that message from WotC and still buys their products, you know what you're supporting.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1097504They could pull a Jessica Price and shit-can the guy for taking to Twitter promoting views that don't align with the company's high moral and ethical standards. That'd make me happy enough to overlook it.

I wish I could say this was anything but entirely expected. I see videogame developers spouting this kind of crap all the time.

I'm doubtful this will have any meaningful impact on the employee in question, but hey.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097428I get to be what I want to be. Some pissy little gnome on the other side of the Atlantic won't dedice how I will feel about something. If I want to be shocked and surprised, I will be. I didn't expect the wokeness, the inclusiveness and the lack of honesty. I expected someone to feel like I feel. But I am the only prejudiced asshole in this forum it seems. I wanted some sugar, I got salt. Well, fuck you all then. I can be my on my own team. Hell, I might even form an unholy alliance with rawma or whatever his name is.

LOL, dude I have gay and lesbian friends and family members, used to get my haircuts in a salon owned and staffed only by transpeople (until I decided to buy the trimmer and never comb again). I'm mixed race so not white enough for the natzess and not brown enough for the SJWs.

Why would I be on your team? Or Rawmas?

If you're not man enough to handle the answer don't ask the question.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1097506I wish I could say this was anything but entirely expected. I see videogame developers spouting this kind of crap all the time.

I'm doubtful this will have any meaningful impact on the employee in question, but hey.

This is not unique to the RPG's - this is RPG's, Boardgames, Comicbooks, Movies, Videogames, Book Publishing, Television, etc. This is not hidden from view. This is precisely why I say jhkim and anyone trying to play down what *IS* happening in RPG's (alone) is being intensely obtuse and/or stupid. It's hard to claim ignorance of it at this point.

These are the leaders of the mediums speaking directly at the consumers, and while sure we can choose not to consume them - we're also being relegated as the *majority* demographic onto islands where these issues can only be spoken about in relative isolation.

It's not case of RPG's generally being hostile to LGBT/POC's etc. at the inception of the hobby. It's the case of *PEOPLE* consuming the game, playing the game as they see fit without overt coercion from the creators - amongst those of like mind who are invested in those things (for whatever reason - or no reason at all).

But now? It's wrongthink and outrage to not accept other people's issues as your own... even in make-believe.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1097505However, almost as soon as nerdy interests became acceptable in mainstream culture a subset of clickbait online writers began to declare that the people previously participating in nerdish hobbies (before the enlightened writers showed up) are worse than Hitler. The pushback is against the bullshit claim that people who spent years minding their own business playing elfgames that the rest of the world dismissed as pathetic were all along actually evil elitist gatekeeping bullies who were shutting out the wretched unwashed masses who desperately wanted to play rpgs all along.

This whole thread is a good example of create an argument by using a false dichotomy.

There are people like Gimme Some Sugar who are PROUD that they might be excluding awesome gamers based solely on appearance and are SHOCKED that more people wouldn't admit that others would do the same.  Clearly, he (presumption on my part) thinks this is the kind of environment where various bigots like to hang out.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1097505I agree, but I think it's worth noting the context in which this particular discussion is taking place. This thread and others like it didn't start in response to someone saying that the gaming/rpg hobby in the 70s (or 80s or whenever) reflected to a large extent the common attitudes and prejudices of that era. If that's all that was being said I doubt anyone would object.

However, almost as soon as nerdy interests became acceptable in mainstream culture a subset of clickbait online writers began to declare that the people previously participating in nerdish hobbies (before the enlightened writers showed up) are worse than Hitler. The pushback is against the bullshit claim that people who spent years minding their own business playing elfgames that the rest of the world dismissed as pathetic were all along actually evil elitist gatekeeping bullies who were shutting out the wretched unwashed masses who desperately wanted to play rpgs all along.

I wouldn't claim that rpgers are uniquely free of attitudes and prejudices that are part of the larger culture, but at the same time I don't see any need to humor a bunch of twits who apparently are incapable of enjoying any activity unless they have a victim narrative to go along with it.

Bingo.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1097517This whole thread is a good example of create an argument by using a false dichotomy.

There are people like Gimme Some Sugar who are PROUD that they might be excluding awesome gamers based solely on appearance and are SHOCKED that more people wouldn't admit that others would do the same.  Clearly, he (presumption on my part) thinks this is the kind of environment where various bigots like to hang out.

What you're talking about is what happens at someones table. There is ZERO evidence this is some widespread pogrom of bigotry. And no one is under any mandate to claim a "right" to play at any table they'e not wanted for any reason.

Nor is anyone *required* to invite anyone that would be counterproductive to the type of game they want to run at their table.

The problem is the people working in the industry itself are making those declarations. What *you* think is an "awesome gamer" doesn't necessarily mean anything to me. The reverse is true too. If a guy shows up at my table with a "tail" plugged into his pants and in his anus because he's a "furry" that identifies as a "fox"... he might be a great guy, but I'm in no way obliged to cater to his views or desires in my game at my table.

If I have an employee that goes on social media saying "CIS-White Men, and non-Furry/friendly-Allies are not welcome in my game/company" etc. How exactly is  a consumer supposed to take that as being anything other than exclusionary at face value? Anyone with a modicum of logic should be able to see it. Those that don't, do not need to be making those decisions on behalf of others. This is what is going on.

Worse - and the larger point of this thread - because of the SJW "movement" the places where you can have this discussion is is pitifully small. Because it's the politics of power taking precedence over the mediums themselves.

It's not hard to follow. They don't have to punish you at your table. They have to punish you publicly and silence you into submission. This is not some new tactic.

Quote from: tenbones;1097520There is ZERO evidence this is some widespread pogrom of bigotry.

I think this statement is very different from the OP - which seems to imply that there has NEVER been any kind of EXCLUSION, contrary to some people's lived experiences.  Something doesn't have to be organized and directed to exist or even to be pervasive.  

I think Pundit would have been on much firmer ground saying something like 'Some people say RPGs have always been insular and exclusionary, but there are lots of well documented examples of RPG players being more accepting and open-minded than other hobbyists'.  That would probably even be true.  

Players of RPGs are used to imagining themselves as someone else - someone green-skinned and scaly, or brutish and dumb, or agile and witty - or whatever, so it stands to reason that GENERALLY they'd be more tolerant of differences.  But clearly there are exceptions.  I don't think recognizing that creates problems.  Instead it opens up a useful discussion of how gaming can be true to the experience it offers but still try to be inviting to others.

I'm actually very sure that MANY posters on this website have talked about how modern RPGs need a 'starter set' that is accessible to all kinds of people - to reduce the barriers to entry and make the hobby more welcoming of newcomers.  There's nothing wrong with pointing out that being more welcoming of newcomers almost by necessity implies being more welcoming of people that haven't traditionally played at the same rates as geeky teen-aged white boys in suburban high schools.  :)

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1097524I'm actually very sure that MANY posters on this website have talked about how modern RPGs need a 'starter set' that is accessible to all kinds of people - to reduce the barriers to entry and make the hobby more welcoming of newcomers.  There's nothing wrong with pointing out that being more welcoming of newcomers almost by necessity implies being more welcoming of people that haven't traditionally played at the same rates as geeky teen-aged white boys in suburban high schools.  :)

What does a starter set have to do with anybody's race or gender?

Why would you go there?

And even race baiters have said they grew up playing some TTRPG or another, non-white race baiters mind you.

Yes, you need to lower the entry point level, but mainly by lowering the price and rule complexity. Now, unless you're saying only people that aren't "geeky teen-aged white boys" would benefit by that I don't see the relevance of the race or gender of anybody.

Those poor wahmens and not-honkies. They just can't learn games without a dumbed down version!

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1097524Players of RPGs are used to imagining themselves as someone else - someone green-skinned and scaly, or brutish and dumb, or agile and witty - or whatever, so it stands to reason that GENERALLY they'd be more tolerant of differences.  But clearly there are exceptions.  I don't think recognizing that creates problems.  Instead it opens up a useful discussion of how gaming can be true to the experience it offers but still try to be inviting to others.

Yes, I admit to being intolerant of people with poor hygiene, or people who inject politics into everything, or people who are not interested in actually gaming, or those whose idea of fun is pissing off everybody else at the game table. Obviously I must now be more inviting to all of the above, even when that drives away the Players I actually want at my game table.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1097524I'm actually very sure that MANY posters on this website have talked about how modern RPGs need a 'starter set' that is accessible to all kinds of people - to reduce the barriers to entry and make the hobby more welcoming of newcomers.  There's nothing wrong with pointing out that being more welcoming of newcomers almost by necessity implies being more welcoming of people that haven't traditionally played at the same rates as geeky teen-aged white boys in suburban high schools.  :)

What the ever-lovin' fuck are you talking about?

You have just conflated starter games which have less rules complexity and price or availability barriers to entry with whatever -ism "geeky teen-aged white boys in suburban high schools" are. That is soup sandwich level of fucked up right there and one of the reasons why I don't want SJWs at my game table.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1097528Those poor wahmens and not-honkies. They just can't learn games without a dumbed down version!

The horror, the horror!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1097490Yes, I'm "inclusive" in regards to judging gamers only by what they bring to the game table. I'm certainly not woke and I post honestly because why the fuck not? It's way more fun to give blunt and honest answers. And I'm all about the LOLz.

Understand my perspective. I live in Hollyweird. California prided itself on being the home of fruits, nuts and flakes 50 years ago and the hippy attitude of "its all good man" has morphed into "look at me, look at me, I demand you salute my freak flag".

1: Same here. Long as someone is not offensive or trying to force their interests/kinks/whatevers then I am willing to give them a seat at my table and see where it goes. And on that note I also do not care what you are if the time comes to give your ass the boot out the door. You had your chance, probably several since I'm way too lenient, and blew it. I do not care what you are. I care what you did.

2: Not just California. Increasingly various fetish groups for example have been pushing to get their kinks "accepted". A few have taken to long term media infiltration and co-opting other groups.

Quote from: jhkimNo one person represents the RPG world, but overall, it is represented by a collection of people and products. The issue is how do we generalize? Binary answers of either "the hobby was welcoming" vs "the hobby was unwelcoming" are largely meaningless.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1097505I agree, but I think it's worth noting the context in which this particular discussion is taking place. This thread and others like it didn't start in response to someone saying that the gaming/rpg hobby in the 70s (or 80s or whenever) reflected to a large extent the common attitudes and prejudices of that era. If that's all that was being said I doubt anyone would object.

However, almost as soon as nerdy interests became acceptable in mainstream culture a subset of clickbait online writers began to declare that the people previously participating in nerdish hobbies (before the enlightened writers showed up) are worse than Hitler.

I'm happy to agree that RPG players were not worse than Hitler. Anyone who says so is wrong.

But my impression is that this isn't sufficient for us to agree, though. Right? It's not just about that statement. Rather, for us to agree, I would have to say something like how SJWs as a whole are wrong - and the anti-SJWs are right. That's my impression.

I suspect that we have some common ground, but also some real differences in political opinion. We agree that RPG players aren't worse than Hitler, but maybe we disagree about someone else's less extreme claim. Still, our individual differences are masked in identity of a binary "us-vs-them". From my view, there's a wide range of opinions on the Internet -- most of which are wrong and dumb, because, well, it's the Internet. And it's not just extremists that are dumb. Moderates are just as dumb, they're just often less visible in their dumbness.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1097505I wouldn't claim that rpgers are uniquely free of attitudes and prejudices that are part of the larger culture, but at the same time I don't see any need to humor a bunch of twits who apparently are incapable of enjoying any activity unless they have a victim narrative to go along with it.

I agree, there are twits like that who I wouldn't humor. Conversely, I also wouldn't want to humor someone like GIMME SOME SUGAR.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1097528Those poor wahmens and not-honkies. They just can't learn games without a dumbed down version!

Who would have imagined that the discrimination was aiming your product at everyone 11 years and older.

Quote from: jhkim;1097482So, you thought you'd get positive social feedback for your position - but instead posters disagreed with you. That's signaling, looking for social reward. However, this isn't an echo chamber for your ideas. I agree with others that signaling and mob mentality is something that happens, especially within partisan echo chambers. TheRPGsite isn't one of those, though.

You're signaling yourself right now. I posted a picture of a hideous man/woman-thing with hairy arms and lips the size of a baboon's swollen ass and yet everybody reacted like: "Hell yeah, I would play rpgs with that person. If she acts normal I would accept her". I call bullshit on that.

I don't know how many hours your sessions last. When I was young we could play for 8-10 hours with a pizza break. Just assume you take a break to go out for some pizza. Would you really want to be seen with that "woman" beside you in a car/at the register? Would you want to see her eat a slice of pizza? Share a milkshake with her? If the answer is yes, my new avatar must be a delight for all you slack jawed faggots. Alderaan Crumbs suggested replacement for my posted thing-that-time-forgot was Blair White. Clearly not the same. You could stand next to Blair White and people would think you were out with a pretty chick. Hell, you could have stood next to Vince Neil anno 1983 and people would still have thought you were out with a pretty chick.

Maybe some of you outspoken ones on this forum are more woke than you pretend to be? The Milli Vanillis of the responce to the forcefed Feminist/SJW/LGBTI inclusiveness in the rpg industry? So, I don't like gaming with ugly transpeople sitting at my kitchen table. Sue me.

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Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097581You're signaling yourself right now. I posted a picture of a hideous man/woman-thing with hairy arms and lips the size of a baboon's swollen ass and yet everybody reacted like: "Hell yeah, I would play rpgs with that person. If she acts normal I would accept her". I call bullshit on that.

I don't know how many hours your sessions last. When I was young we could play for 8-10 hours with a pizza break. Just assume you take a break to go out for some pizza. Would you really want to be seen with that "woman" beside you in a car/at the register? Would you want to see her eat a slice of pizza? Share a milkshake with her? If the answer is yes, my new avatar must be a delight for all you slack jawed faggots. Alderaan Crumbs suggested replacement for my posted thing-that-time-forgot was Blair White. Clearly not the same. You could stand next to Blair White and people would think you were out with a pretty chick. Hell, you could have stood next to Vince Neil anno 1983 and people would still have thought you were out with a pretty chick.

Maybe some of you outspoken ones on this forum are more woke than you pretend to be? The Milli Vanillis of the responce to the forcefed Feminist/SJW/LGBTI inclusiveness in the rpg industry? So, I don't like gaming with ugly transpeople sitting at my kitchen table. Sue me.

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So you never went for a pizza or with a cousin with severe facial deformations? Or a friend who got burned so bad he lost most of his face?


Good thing is that for you to be able to offend me I would have first to give a damn about your opinion.

Quote from: sureshot;1097437Looks like another one came here to get a validating echo chamber and then rage quit because the rest of the forum refused to give it to him.

There have been others like me, you say? I will find these malicious men, these champions of darkness, and build myself an army and a giant echo chamber-thread on this forum where you and your poseur kin will be roasted on spits all day long. By word and by Meme. Maybe these thunderous men are still lurking around the forum or twirling around without purpose, outcasts in darkest aether - waiting for this very moment! I am here now, braves! The Chosen One. The One and True Crowned King of Utter Bastards!

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You may golf clap with your babysmooth, manicured hands to this now. But you cannot stop progress:

Spoiler

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Quote from: GeekyBugle;1097587So you never went for a pizza or with a cousin with severe facial deformations? Or a friend who got burned so bad he lost most of his face?


Good thing is that for you to be able to offend me I would have first to give a damn about your opinion.

Only a moron would compare horrible injuries or genetical disorders/deformities with someone who deliberately tried to mimic a trans pornstar:

"The 56-year-old Italian woman has spent 11 years and $87,000 on plastic surgery including more than 150 lip and cheekbone fillers, four breast implants, two rounds of liposuction and at least one butt lift, according to a Barcroft.

"I am not happy with my 'perfect' body because it is not perfect. Perfection is something else," Pellegrino told Barcroft.

"I want to look like Allanah Starr, an American transgender porn star," Pellegrino continued. "Plastic surgery is not a drug but its something that people like me need."

Now, google Allanah Starr, then read this article:

https://nypost.com/2016/01/07/the-transgender-woman-spending-a-small-fortune-to-look-perfect/ (https://nypost.com/2016/01/07/the-transgender-woman-spending-a-small-fortune-to-look-perfect/)

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Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097581You're signaling yourself right now. I posted a picture of a hideous man/woman-thing with hairy arms and lips the size of a baboon's swollen ass and yet everybody reacted like: "Hell yeah, I would play rpgs with that person. If she acts normal I would accept her". I call bullshit on that.

I am pretty sure most of us here have a line drawn somewhere that they arent comfortable crossing. And some have their line further back than others. Or the line may be flexible.

I am also pretty sure that for most of us. Even you. That how we view a certain group depends sometimes on first impressions, good or bad. And then shift from later encounters, good or bad.

Personal example: I am perfectly fine with about anyone who isn't offensive in some way. I am ok with someone being trans. Even games with a few over the decades. I am not ok with a trans person being offensive about it in some way. Especially if it they seem to be going out of their way to damage the allready shaky reputation. Same with a gaming fan. If they take it too far then they can and possibly will start working their way up my "no" list. But I will certainly give the next person with similar interests a fair chance.

Quick example: I have gamed with a several folk way way way too into settings with giants in them. And for some reason keep bumping into the worst of the lot. That soured me on such settings for a while. But I'll entertain running such on request when in an indulgent mood. And hopefully not regret it.

Every DM, and player for that matter has to make a judgement call at some point. "Are these the sorts of people I want to sit down for hours with?" or even "Is this one person the sort I want to sit down for hours with?". And that is not discrimination or any other tag SJWs love to toss around. We all have different tastes in who we like to game with.  Who we are comfortable gaming with.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097597Only a moron would compare horrible injuries or genetical disorders/deformities with someone who deliberately tried to mimic a trans pornstar:

"The 56-year-old Italian woman has spent 11 years and $87,000 on plastic surgery including more than 150 lip and cheekbone fillers, four breast implants, two rounds of liposuction and at least one butt lift, according to a Barcroft.

"I am not happy with my 'perfect' body because it is not perfect. Perfection is something else," Pellegrino told Barcroft.

"I want to look like Allanah Starr, an American transgender porn star," Pellegrino continued. "Plastic surgery is not a drug but its something that people like me need."

Now, google Allanah Starr, then read this article:

https://nypost.com/2016/01/07/the-transgender-woman-spending-a-small-fortune-to-look-perfect/ (https://nypost.com/2016/01/07/the-transgender-woman-spending-a-small-fortune-to-look-perfect/)

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And?

Are you angry your idol got an imitator? Does it spoil your fapping sessions watching that pornstar's films?

You'll have to excuse if I don't give a damn why someone looks like they look (unless they are a Skrull that is).

Quote from: jhkimSo, you thought you'd get positive social feedback for your position - but instead posters disagreed with you. That's signaling, looking for social reward. However, this isn't an echo chamber for your ideas. I agree with others that signaling and mob mentality is something that happens, especially within partisan echo chambers. TheRPGsite isn't one of those, though.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097581You're signaling yourself right now. I posted a picture of a hideous man/woman-thing with hairy arms and lips the size of a baboon's swollen ass and yet everybody reacted like: "Hell yeah, I would play rpgs with that person. If she acts normal I would accept her". I call bullshit on that.

I don't know how many hours your sessions last. When I was young we could play for 8-10 hours with a pizza break. Just assume you take a break to go out for some pizza. Would you really want to be seen with that "woman" beside you in a car/at the register? Would you want to see her eat a slice of pizza?

Signaling is people who are just saying whatever will get them praise, when they have no intention of putting those values into action. When everyone here disagrees with me -- which is pretty damn often -- I don't throw a tantrum and start posting angry gifs. My positions are the same regardless of whether they earn me praise or dissent. Certainly being bashed too much for one's opinions can be frustrating. If I get too frustrated, I'll walk away from the computer and do regular life stuff. I highly recommend this for any Internet drama.

As for the player -- it's hard to say in hypothetical. But I've currently in an irregular FATE campaign for the last half-year with two transgender players and a non-binary GM, plus many other players over the years who were very strange-looking. I'll be playing with my nephew next week, and he's had a ton of surgery since birth to deal with a genetic skeletal disorder that makes him look and sound odd.

Sure, there are people that I won't play with for their behavior. But I'm not shocked by odd-looking + transgender.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097596There have been others like me, you say? I will find these malicious men, these champions of darkness, and build myself an army and a giant echo chamber-thread on this forum where you and your poseur kin will be roasted on spits all day long. By word and by Meme. Maybe these thunderous men are still lurking around the forum or twirling around without purpose, outcasts in darkest aether - waiting for this very moment! I am here now, braves! The Chosen One. The One and True Crowned King of Utter Bastards!

A) What are you, twelve?

B) Pundit is already the Final Boss of Internet Shitlords, so you will have to try harder for validation.

Quote from: jeff37923;1097610A) What are you, twelve?

B) Pundit is already the Final Boss of Internet Shitlords, so you will have to try harder for validation.

A) Yes, of course I'm 12. And you are The Knight Of Common Sense, right? It must be correct because you say so. Will you post a fap, fap, fap quote or post a meme now like you do whenever that rawma guy posts something? Are you angry that I have been using memes too? Was it your personal gimmick? And another question: have you ever heard of a hyperbole, Miss?

B) You might have gotten the titles confused? Reading apprehension is hard I know. And I subscribe to Pundits channel, and I watch his videos (at least the ones he isn't ranting on about OSR. I hate D&D). But judging from your vitriol I might have stumpled upon a cult. Is this the cult of Pundit, the Shitlord? Is this the reason why this forum exists? I thought this was a haven for the outcasts?


And before you "abuse" me more with your thunderous words, keep in mind that I have mental issues and that I wear glasses. Do you want to be that coward attacking a guy with glasses? Now, go fuck yourself, piglet.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1097603And?

Are you angry your idol got an imitator? Does it spoil your fapping sessions watching that pornstar's films?

You'll have to excuse if I don't give a damn why someone looks like they look (unless they are a Skrull that is).

Have you, once in any of my posts, noticed me sexually lusting for or idolizing transpeople? And that's one shitty imitator judging by the pictures. I think you could pull it off better if you tried. I bet you have worn a silk stocking or two in your lifetime.

Quote from: rawma;1097352...Testing that correlates with various forms of success (school, jobs) has proven value. (IQ testing apparently does not correlate with wealth, so "If you're so smart, how come you're not rich?" is a baseless gibe.) The Flynn effect seems to indicate that it's not particularly genetic, though. And experiments where teachers were told that certain students were expected to excel based on testing, when the students were chosen randomly but do subsequently excel, would seem to support other reasons for differences. The history of IQ testing is of course filled with misuse to serve racist agendas; standardized testing for college admission seems to have started to exclude Jews from Ivy League schools (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2001/12/17/examined-life).

For IQ specifically, I'll fall back on the Sidney Harris cartoon -- "You did very well on your I.Q. test. You're a man of 49 with the intelligence of a man of 53." So, when will you share your fantasy heartbreaker with a penalty to Intelligence scores for blacks? Or will you at least rant about the apparent race of the Wizard illustration in the 5e PHB?

Racism is an ideology that often uses pseudoscience, as do all ideologues to some extent (including SJWism), to rationalize what in actuality is a mystical position, not a scientific one.

As an example, there is a correlation between IQ and race, but correlation is not causation. Conflating correlation and causation, whether intentionally or due to ignorance, to prove racial superiority/inferiority is an example of using pseudoscience to rationalize one's position.

Another example of faulty reasoning: IQ testing shows differences in races; all people are the same; therefore IQ testing is wrong; QED.

As both examples show, political ideologues begin with an axiomatic position and seek to prove that position via confirmation bias. That isn't how we do science.

The science on IQ is very good, even if it doesn't support any preferred political narratives, which science rarely does. We know that brain expansion has been driven by 3 nearly identical genes that boost the number of potential nerve cells in brain tissue, and we know approximately when and where these mutations first appeared.

The correlation of race and IQ is likely due to the fact that people from the same area are generally of the same race. People who are in isolated areas, such as Australia or sub-Sahara Africa, take longer to accumulate new genetic material that is circulating through the human population. The latest gene that affects neural density appeared around 5k to 6k years ago in the Middle-East (corresponding to the emergence of literacy and agriculture), and it has been quickly spreading outward from there via the Mediterranean (Romans, Greeks) and then via the British Empire which seeded the entire globe, hence the rapidly expanding economies all over the world, except in those areas where human malevolence is holding people back (North Korea, Venezuela, etc.)

2000 years ago Roman women were making blonde wigs from their white barbarian slaves, a time when superstitious Germanic tribesmen lived in fear of the dark woods. A few hundred years ago the African slave trade was selling members of their own race to cultures all over the world -- today their descendants are Super Bowl-winning head coaches, CEOs of big companies in America, and generals in the most powerful military force to ever exist in human history. That shows how fast human populations change. We are currently undergoing rapid evolution which is why aggregate IQs by region range from 75 to 105.

AD&D is correct to show no difference between human races -- any such differences will be dependent on local conditions within the DM's own game world.

The reasoning it takes longer to accumulate new genetic material in Sub-Saharan Africa is because it is the most genetically diverse region for Homo Sapiens, as it is the birthplace of our species. Drops in ponds vs. oceans and all. :)

That and population increase tends to foster more ideas; more heads are better than less. Given the flora and fauna of the "Living Pleistocene" of Africa survived by being exceedingly hostile to humans, it tended to keep populations lower and less dense in the struggle to survive. :D

So yes, I agree with you AD&D is correct to show no difference between human races! :D
----

That said, this Fulvia Pellegrino seems to be deeply lonely. She has self-ostracized due to her internal dialogue demanding internal and external conformity to the point her neighbors cannot relate. She needs a friend, beyond her wife, and probably a hug too. :(

But I am not paid to do therapy at the table. :( So if she can compartmentalize her tribulations and let us all share the table, she can play. :) However I refuse to be ad hoc therapist and group therapy hug box on my free time. It would be unfair of her to expect of us such, and immoral for me and others to pretend professional help as such. We may do what we can as kindness to fellow humans, but there are boundaries for a reason -- "physician, first do no harm!"

Here you go this from the BBC the leading diversity quotas champion. Even if a program is set in the Highlands their goal is to have the cast look like this and the crew of course.
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This is the HR service team.

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Obviously the next step in the diversity drive is to get rid of the 2 white guys unless of course they are gay in which case they are safe.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097596There have been others like me, you say? I will find these malicious men, these champions of darkness, and build myself an army and a giant echo chamber-thread on this forum where you and your poseur kin will be roasted on spits all day long. By word and by Meme. Maybe these thunderous men are still lurking around the forum or twirling around without purpose, outcasts in darkest aether - waiting for this very moment! I am here now, braves! The Chosen One. The One and True Crowned King of Utter Bastards!

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You may golf clap with your babysmooth, manicured hands to this now. But you cannot stop progress:

Spoiler

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Wow

You really are certifiably insane. While possibly being so far in the closet you don't even recognize it.

All it took was getting pushback from a forum to show your true colors.

Let me guess you heard or were told that this place was the most homophobic, misogynistic etc.., rpg forum on the planet, fell for it and came here expecting a masturbatory fantasy. Instead reality and people having a difference of opinion hit you sack in the forehead and suddenly you can't cope.

Leadership most of the people you want to recruit would want nothing to do with you. First off your coming off as an immature insane man-child. Or trolling and many here would despise you just for that. Second you despise and dislike inclusivty and diversity so forgot about recruiting any of the more progressive members here. While also possibly being in denial about your own sexuality. For someone who hates gay people you sure as hell like posting way too many memes about it.

More importantly while I would probably never invite the woman who wanted to look like a trans star to my table. I sure as hell would never tell someone else they can't. More importantly it is none of my business and specially yours to go around telling anyone who they can invite to their table. Keep posting your "I'm gay and in denial" memes and acting like a complete lunatic. I'm sure that will work on getting your point across.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097613Have you, once in any of my posts, noticed me sexually lusting for or idolizing transpeople? And that's one shitty imitator judging by the pictures. I think you could pull it off better if you tried. I bet you have worn a silk stocking or two in your lifetime.

Your last two memes to me anyway involved one guy fapping. Another one a naked guy who likes he is praying to a bunch of dildos and your wowndering why we question your sexuality.

Anyway keep showing everyone here that you don't like getting any pushback when it comes to what you post.

Cue the leadership meme and gay in the closet meme in 3, 2, 1,

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097597Only a moron would compare horrible injuries or genetical disorders/deformities with someone who deliberately tried to mimic a trans pornstar:

"The 56-year-old Italian woman has spent 11 years and $87,000 on plastic surgery including more than 150 lip and cheekbone fillers, four breast implants, two rounds of liposuction and at least one butt lift, according to a Barcroft.

"I am not happy with my 'perfect' body because it is not perfect. Perfection is something else," Pellegrino told Barcroft.

"I want to look like Allanah Starr, an American transgender porn star," Pellegrino continued. "Plastic surgery is not a drug but its something that people like me need."

Now, google Allanah Starr, then read this article:

https://nypost.com/2016/01/07/the-transgender-woman-spending-a-small-fortune-to-look-perfect/ (https://nypost.com/2016/01/07/the-transgender-woman-spending-a-small-fortune-to-look-perfect/)

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I have to agree that it's disingenuous to compare an accident-scarred or birth-deformed family member to a person who voluntarily mutilates themselves. Not the same. By the Woke Metric, I would be racist for seeing a dangerous-looking MS-13 member and steering clear, not a person who clearly sees trouble and takes steps to avoid it.

I also agree that 80s's Vince Neil was prettier than any man should've been. ;)

Quote from: sureshot;1097633Wow

You really are certifiably insane. While possibly being so far in the closet you don't even recognize it.

All it took was getting pushback from a forum to show your true colors.

Let me guess you heard or were told that this place was the most homophobic, misogynistic etc.., rpg forum on the planet, fell for it and came here expecting a masturbatory fantasy. Instead reality and people having a difference of opinion hit you sack in the forehead and suddenly you can't cope.

Leadership most of the people you want to recruit would want nothing to do with you. First off your coming off as an immature insane man-child. Or trolling and many here would despise you just for that. Second you despise and dislike inclusivty and diversity so forgot about recruiting any of the more progressive members here. While also possibly being in denial about your own sexuality. For someone who hates gay people you sure as hell like posting way too many memes about it.

More importantly while I would probably never invite the woman who wanted to look like a trans star to my table. I sure as hell would never tell someone else they can't. More importantly it is none of my business and specially yours to go around telling anyone who they can invite to their table. Keep posting your "I'm gay and in denial" memes and acting like a complete lunatic. I'm sure that will work on getting your point across.

No, I am not insane. I met my psychologist this morning in fact. She told me that what I feel and how I react is neither strange nor insane. I take all my medicine like a good boy too. All this is real. Oh, and the closet gay thing...if I was gay I would say so. But if I was gay I would be the masculine kind for sure. But I'm heterosexual. I'm just too old, too bald, too fat and tired to try to meet women. I settle for 5 minutes of pornhub. At least I can mute the women in the clip if they talk. Nagging and smalltalk trigger my panic attacks.

I heard of this place..an enchanted land of free speech...an oasis for rpg outcasts. A safespace from all the LGBTQI/Feminist/SJW garbage found in modern rpgs. I got that impression from Pundits videos, but I guess I was wrong. I'll let you and your tag team nag and manhandle me from now on.

Btw, who are the "we" who question my sexuality?

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Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1097636I also agree that 80s's Vince Neil was prettier than any man should've been. ;)

I have always been a devoted Maiden fan myself, but one of my close friends was a huge Mötley Crüe fan and I remember a poster from the Theatre of Pain era when I almost had to look twice to check if he was male or not. But this is getting near the territory of the discussion in True Romance:

https://youtu.be/TB73Ko12yiQ (https://youtu.be/TB73Ko12yiQ)

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097645I have always been a devoted Maiden fan myself, but one of my close friends was a huge Mötley Crüe fan and I remember a poster from the Theatre of Pain era when I almost had to look twice to check if he was male or not. But this is getting near the territory of the discussion in True Romance:

https://youtu.be/TB73Ko12yiQ (https://youtu.be/TB73Ko12yiQ)

80's rock and metal are still so fucking awesome!

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;109764680's rock and metal are still so fucking awesome!

I agree. Same goes for the movies.

So getting pushback on a topic and posters disagreeing with you on a topic means this place does not allow free speech. Then you wonder why I and others question your sanity GOS. Since you consider yourself so manly how about manning up and admitting you acted both immature and overreacted.

All some here did was disagree with you. Your in no way, shape or form a victim of anything. If you can't handle criticism of your posts why are you here beyond basically trolling and seeking validation.

I think whomever told you about this forum either lied to you. Or you refuse to accept that people on this forum have different opinions.

Quote from: jhkim;1097556But my impression is that this isn't sufficient for us to agree, though. Right? It's not just about that statement. Rather, for us to agree, I would have to say something like how SJWs as a whole are wrong - and the anti-SJWs are right. That's my impression.

I suspect that we have some common ground, but also some real differences in political opinion. We agree that RPG players aren't worse than Hitler, but maybe we disagree about someone else's less extreme claim. Still, our individual differences are masked in identity of a binary "us-vs-them". From my view, there's a wide range of opinions on the Internet -- most of which are wrong and dumb, because, well, it's the Internet. And it's not just extremists that are dumb. Moderates are just as dumb, they're just often less visible in their dumbness.

You know, this is very illustrative about why you think we "talk past one another". I keep pointing out the "pathological post-modern position" that you hold (and a lot of other people) whom I think are intelligent, but once caught in this trap, say things completely incongruent with the discussion, insofar as finding "common ground" is the goal.

You're literally saying "there is a wide spectrum" and that "binary extremes are not desireable" (my paraphrase). But then you qualify your position by making a binary set of options as the only set of options for you to place your "real" opinion down... and of course you don't. Rather you qualify your response by pointing out the extremes and saying "everyone is dumb" (including some moderate positions) and nothing more.

What you don't do is look at the binary construct itself and see that the positions of "SJW" and "Anti-SJW" are themselves constructs that are in constant flux. One more than the other. What you don't do is qualify the totality of those positions in terms of which is more salient. It's not enough to say "SJW" as a whole are wrong, and Anti-SJW's are right. It's the necessity to qualify WHY one has more qualities than the other then stake some *sane* position that corroborates reality under optimal circumstances.

This is common for people that are Post-Modernist in their worldview - they can hold disparate views in hand, but those that pathologically cling to this construct are seemingly incapable of distinguishing their actual values against one another.

"SJW" and "Anti-SJW" are not the extremes. SJW's are self-identified. Anyone that isn't one, is by definition "anti-SJW". Just ask them. The goal post moves as they move.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1097627That said, this Fulvia Pellegrino seems to be deeply lonely. She has self-ostracized due to her internal dialogue demanding internal and external conformity to the point her neighbors cannot relate. She needs a friend, beyond her wife, and probably a hug too. :(

 I'm no angel, and I find her appearance as distracting as that guy who got all modified to look like a human tiger.
But I do think I would be more concerned with this person's mental issues than their appearance. It's trying enough to deal with the usual gamer quirks.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097644I heard of this place..an enchanted land of free speech...an oasis for rpg outcasts. A safespace from all the LGBTQI/Feminist/SJW garbage found in modern rpgs. I got that impression from Pundits videos, but I guess I was wrong. I'll let you and your tag team nag and manhandle me from now on.

You are wrong, as should be obvious from the contradiction in what you just wrote. This is a free speech area, and respect to Pundit for mostly keeping to that. So it's not a safe space for anyone.

Quote from: jhkim;1097666You are wrong, as should be obvious from the contradiction in what you just wrote. This is a free speech area, and respect to Pundit for mostly keeping to that. So it's not a safe space for anyone.

The funny thing is I think his version of free speech amounts to not posting anthing and everything he dislikes. When that is the opposite of free speech imo.

Quote from: sureshot;1097669The funny thing is I think his version of free speech amounts to not posting anthing and everything he dislikes. When that is the opposite of free speech imo.

I don't understand what you wrote. I have made several posts, even started a few threads.

Quote from: sureshot;1097656So getting pushback on a topic and posters disagreeing with you on a topic means this place does not allow free speech. Then you wonder why I and others question your sanity GOS. Since you consider yourself so manly how about manning up and admitting you acted both immature and overreacted.

All some here did was disagree with you. Your in no way, shape or form a victim of anything. If you can't handle criticism of your posts why are you here beyond basically trolling and seeking validation.

I think whomever told you about this forum either lied to you. Or you refuse to accept that people on this forum have different opinions.

Who beside you questions my sanity? Can you name these people? I would like to know. The critique I got was unexpected and frankly, downright feminine. Have you lived sheltered lives online or something? You ought to visit the Flashback forum. That would test your mettle. Well, we don't have to like each other. There might be a lurker or two that agrees with me. That's enough for me. At least I know where you and your entourage stands.

As for the Land of Milk and Honey...I watched Pundits videos and down at the bottom it says: "For more Free-Speech RPG discussion visit //www.therpgsite.com forums". But maybe this forum isn't right for me. Maybe it's more woke than I thought, because your reaction mimics members of the biggest Swedish rpg forum, where the leftist dominate. Like them you are all so good. Really good people. Righteous. You never judge a book by its cover, do you? The dishonesty sickens me. Where are all the so called Shitlords? The rotten eggs that were banned from other forums? The tough hombres?

Quote from: jhkim;1097666You are wrong, as should be obvious from the contradiction in what you just wrote. This is a free speech area, and respect to Pundit for mostly keeping to that. So it's not a safe space for anyone.

That would include you too regardless of your 7k posts.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097672There might be a lurker or two that agrees with me. That's enough for me.

I wouldn't take a complete lack of validation as proof that there exist people here who hold to your position.  

Quote from: Johnny Cash, Man in BlackAnd, I wear it for the thousands who have died,
Believen' that the Lord was on their side,
I wear it for another hundred thousand who have died,
Believen' that we all were on their side.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1097674I wouldn't take a complete lack of validation as proof that there exist people here who hold to your position.

But then again it's like 10 people being active in this thread. I'm sure somebody out there loves me. And look, I can post lyrics too:

"I Just Saw The Gayest Guy On Earth

he hangs around in allston,he always wears a tree shirt
his favorite band is roadsaw,he hangs out at the model cafe
he hangs out with toxic narcotic,he's got a tribal tattoo
his best friend is joe bonni,he's got his eyebrow pierced
he has purple dreadlocks,he works at herrell's ice cream
he wears an "allston rock city" t-shirt,i hope you fucking die"



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Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097647I agree. Same goes for the movies.

True. I wonder if any RPGs purposefully capture the 80's as a theme? I know a lot is how the players play, but damn if it wouldn't be fun to have a game custom made to play Kung Fury!

Quote from: jhkimYou are wrong, as should be obvious from the contradiction in what you just wrote. This is a free speech area, and respect to Pundit for mostly keeping to that. So it's not a safe space for anyone.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097673That would include you too regardless of your 7k posts.

Absolutely. I get bashed all the time here.

Welcome to the jungle. We will often disagree here, and can get pretty insulting, but usually people keep up a degree of rationality rather than descending into pure name-calling and such.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1097678True. I wonder if any RPGs purposefully capture the 80's as a theme? I know a lot is how the players play, but damn if it wouldn't be fun to have a game custom made to play Kung Fury!

That would be great. Another great rpg would be one that tries to capture giallos and slasher movies. I know that there are rpgs like Final Girl etc, but they are so damn ugly. I wish they would put some effort into the layout and art.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1097678True. I wonder if any RPGs purposefully capture the 80's as a theme? I know a lot is how the players play, but damn if it wouldn't be fun to have a game custom made to play Kung Fury!

   Would Evil Hat's new Shadows of the Century qualify?

  Personally, I'd be more inclined to do an '80s game' with d6 or Savage Worlds ...

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1097678True. I wonder if any RPGs purposefully capture the 80's as a theme? I know a lot is how the players play, but damn if it wouldn't be fun to have a game custom made to play Kung Fury!

It's 70s rather than 80s per se - but I've heard good things about the "Spirit of '77" RPG. It's Apocalypse World based. It's not a parody, so it wouldn't do Kung Fury quite straight - but it covers a bunch of the late 70s / early 80s style action movies.

https://stuffershack.com/spirit-of-77-rpg-review-and-scenario/

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Quote from: jhkim;1097685It's 70s rather than 80s per se - but I've heard good things about the "Spirit of '77" RPG. It's Apocalypse World based. It's not a parody, so it wouldn't do Kung Fury quite straight - but it covers a bunch of the late 70s / early 80s style action movies.

https://stuffershack.com/spirit-of-77-rpg-review-and-scenario/

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That's certainly a slick cover and the premise is neat. I haven't seen Shadow of the Century, but if it's Fate I'll likely pass.

One thing about an 80's game that would be tough to nail would be the tone. The flicks of that era have a broad appeal and nailing it all down might be too much. For me, a game that promoted both cheesy and serious tropes, often at once, would be perfect. Things like bonuses for awesome one-liners (maybe you get Plot Armor to spend on stuff such as healing, roll bonuses, etc. after delivering an awesome quip), perks for doing in-genre things that are largely unrealistic (such as firing and waving an Uzi around like you're being attacked by bees and hitting a dozen terrorists), taking less explosive damage if you're facing away from an explosion (and a perk where you take even less damage if you're walking away slowly while looking cool and detached). Extra damage if you "tactically" emplace/use weapons and explosives. Oh, and never, ever needing to track ammo or reload unless plot complications demand it.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097677But then again it's like 10 people being active in this thread. I'm sure somebody out there loves me. And look, I can post lyrics too:

"I Just Saw The Gayest Guy On Earth

Since everyone is jumping on you, I have to agree that the gayest man on earth would call that ... person ... over the top.  

But you know thats why they have online gaming now.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097672Who beside you questions my sanity? Can you name these people? I would like to know. The critique I got was unexpected and frankly, downright feminine. Have you lived sheltered lives online or something? You ought to visit the Flashback forum. That would test your mettle. Well, we don't have to like each other. There might be a lurker or two that agrees with me. That's enough for me. At least I know where you and your entourage stands.

I don't hate you and I questioned your sanity as you had a very public and ugly mental breakdown for nothing at all. You quote free speech yet somehow it applies only to you and no one else. Post whatever the fuck you want..everyone else better not dare pushback or make a negative comment about your posts. While some lurkers might agree with you though I doubt. You at least have the distinction of both the progressives and non-progressives pretty much almost  not agreeing with anything you posted after the breakdown. Speaking again for Rawma and JHKIM and Deadmanwalking. I'm 99% certain they want nothing the hell to do with you. You pulled an epic rage shitfit and over nothing and you wonder why people here question if your nuts.

I have had my share though nowhere near the dumbfuckery that was yours. As well as some pity parades. Except I can actually admit I made a mistake while your going to try and push the "what did I do?" narrative except no one here believes your bullshit on that anymore

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097672As for the Land of Milk and Honey...I watched Pundits videos and down at the bottom it says: "For more Free-Speech RPG discussion visit //www.therpgsite.com forums". But maybe this forum isn't right for me. Maybe it's more woke than I thought, because your reaction mimics members of the biggest Swedish rpg forum, where the leftist dominate. Like them you are all so good. Really good people. Righteous. You never judge a book by its cover, do you? The dishonesty sickens me. Where are all the so called Shitlords? The rotten eggs that were banned from other forums? The tough hombres?

You fucked up and are in denial about it and trying to hide behind free speech. Which by the way Free Speech does in no way shape form make your posts or yourself immune to criticism positive or negative. That might work in the imaginary world populated with creatures that agree with you 1000%. In the real world were not giving that to you here. Maybe in other forums not here. As for being kicked out of the other forum unfairly I'm beginning to wonder if it was actually unfair. Your behavior in the last two days makes a 4 year old in pre-k look well behaved. While it is possibly they treated you unfairly, doing the internet equivalent of continually raging, frothing at the mouth, falling to the and slamming your hands and legs into the floor is not going to want to make anyone listen to you. Nor are you some victim either so drop the victim act because your nothing of the sort/

Quote from: jhkim;1097679Absolutely. I get bashed all the time here.

Welcome to the jungle. We will often disagree here, and can get pretty insulting, but usually people keep up a degree of rationality rather than descending into pure name-calling and such.

At this point the best thing to do and something I will ask as a general call to the forum is to ignore him. He thrives on the attention, plays the victim and then pretends to either not understand why or hide behind free speech.

So past this point at least in this thread i'm done with the troll.

Quote from: jhkim;1097685It's 70s rather than 80s per se - but I've heard good things about the "Spirit of '77" RPG. It's Apocalypse World based. It's not a parody, so it wouldn't do Kung Fury quite straight - but it covers a bunch of the late 70s / early 80s style action movies.

https://stuffershack.com/spirit-of-77-rpg-review-and-scenario/

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If I played this rpg this music playlist would be played in the background.

Quote from: sureshot;1097718I don't hate you and I questioned your sanity as you had a very public and ugly mental breakdown for nothing at all. You quote free speech yet somehow it applies only to you and no one else. Post whatever the fuck you want..everyone else better not dare pushback or make a negative comment about your posts. While some lurkers might agree with you though I doubt. You at least have the distinction of both the progressives and non-progressives pretty much almost  not agreeing with anything you posted after the breakdown. Speaking again for Rawma and JHKIM and Deadmanwalking. I'm 99% certain they want nothing the hell to do with you. You pulled an epic rage shitfit and over nothing and you wonder why people here question if your nuts.

I have had my share though nowhere near the dumbfuckery that was yours. As well as some pity parades. Except I can actually admit I made a mistake while your going to try and push the "what did I do?" narrative except no one here believes your bullshit on that anymore



You fucked up and are in denial about it and trying to hide behind free speech. Which by the way Free Speech does in no way shape form make your posts or yourself immune to criticism positive or negative. That might work in the imaginary world populated with creatures that agree with you 1000%. In the real world were not giving that to you here. Maybe in other forums not here. As for being kicked out of the other forum unfairly I'm beginning to wonder if it was actually unfair. Your behavior in the last two days makes a 4 year old in pre-k look well behaved. While it is possibly they treated you unfairly, doing the internet equivalent of continually raging, frothing at the mouth, falling to the and slamming your hands and legs into the floor is not going to want to make anyone listen to you. Nor are you some victim either so drop the victim act because your nothing of the sort/

The only narrative I'm pushing is that I'm manlier than you. I also notice that you, like me, enjoy hyperboles. But believe me when I say that there was no frothing at the mouth, falling to the floor. In fact there was no rage. There was great joy. I laughed myself when I posted the Samuel L Jackson gif and others. There was some real anger later though when I realized I had some humourless scum on my hands.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097644I take all my medicine like a good boy too.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097644I'm just too old, too bald, too fat and tired to try to meet women.

You might want to consider how these two sentences are related. Big Pharma isn't your friend.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097644I heard of this place..an enchanted land of free speech...an oasis for rpg outcasts.

It is an oasis of free speech for EVERYONE.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;109764680's rock and metal are still so fucking awesome!

I love 80s metal, but we've been a 2nd coming of metal for at least a decade. It's amazing how many awesome bands are kicking ass today. At least once every couple months I discover a kickass band.

Quote from: jhkim;1097666So it's not a safe space for anyone.

Hell yeah and amen!!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1097744You might want to consider how these two sentences are related. Big Pharma isn't your friend.

Thats a dirty dirty lie.  But dont worry there are drugs that can fix that.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1097744You might want to consider how these two sentences are related. Big Pharma isn't your friend.

Well, I know that medicines have a lot of side effects. But sometimes the positive outweigh the negative, at least when it comes to my beloved anxiety and depression pills. Me being fat now though is a side-effect of eating alot of junk food. My baldness is genetical.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1097744It is an oasis of free speech for EVERYONE.

Apparently not as people are are allowed to post yet think those same posts are immune to criticism.

As to the topic while their were and still maybe some who ban some players for their gender, sexual  orientation and religion they are imo an minority and not the norm. Certainly their never was or is some kind of straight white male conspiracy to only allow such people into our hobby. We were and are in some cases still social pariahs and outcasts. I can also put out an ad where gay, POC and women can join a campaign. I also cannot force any of the three to join.

Quote from: sureshot;1097754Apparently not as people are are allowed to post yet think those same posts are immune to criticism.

As to the topic while their were and still maybe some who ban some players for their gender, sexual  orientation and religion they are imo an minority and not the norm. Certainly their never was or is some kind of straight white male conspiracy to only allow such people into our hobby. We were and are in some cases still social pariahs and outcasts. I can also put out an ad where gay, POC and women can join a campaign. I also cannot force any of the three to join.

It seems a typical Internet argument over subverted expectations. GSS seems cool and is simply marking territory. As the digital landscape has infinite corners to piss in, I say rock on.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1097761It seems a typical Internet argument over subverted expectations. GSS seems cool and is simply marking territory. As the digital landscape has infinite corners to piss in, I say rock on.

True

Yet I also never really understood someone asking a question then having a mental breakdown at the answers received. Why even ask the question if one already has made up their mind about the answers. Everything else is just trolling imo.

Quote from: sureshot;1097763True

Yet I also never really understood someone asking a question then having a mental breakdown at the answers received. Why even ask the question if one already has made up their mind about the answers. Everything else is just trolling imo.

It could be disappointment at expecting a place diametrically opposed to SJW crazy but finding it more nuanced. It could be one ruffled feather sent somebody's "brain bird" into a tailspin. It could be GSS is a dick. It could be that forums tend to easily tumble into insanity. Who knows?

Well, it could also be that some keep nagging me, poking me with a stick for a Samuel L Jackson gif. Calling it a mental breakdown. Hyperboles can be fun, but don't overdo it. I swear on my manboobs that my pulse was totally normal. And posting memes is what others do all the time, even old farts.

[video=youtube_share;XRb1mRa-JHM]https://youtu.be/XRb1mRa-JHM[/youtube]

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097778Well, it could also be that some keep nagging me, poking me with a stick for a Samuel L Jackson gif. Calling it a mental breakdown. Hyperboles can be fun, but don't overdo it. I swear on my manboobs that my pulse was totally normal. And posting memes is what others do all the time, even old farts.

[video=youtube_share;XRb1mRa-JHM]https://youtu.be/XRb1mRa-JHM[/youtube]

Fair. In case it matters, my comment about a "brain bird" wasn't about you (or anyone) being bird brained, it was a play on words about things getting under skin and getting blown up. I wouldn't sweat being picked on as the new guy, it happens. I've smashed heads with people here and later had great interactions. If there's one ongoing "WTF?!" I regularly have it's the almost spastic fear and loathing for storygames. Those are poopy-bad fun. ;)

If I had the right crew, I'd love to play a campaign of Burning Empires, but not on RPG night. RPG night is for RPGs! For me, its just an issue of expectations - RPGs, LARPS, boardgames, card games, minis games, and storygames can all be fun, but they're not the same thing.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097750Well, I know that medicines have a lot of side effects. But sometimes the positive outweigh the negative, at least when it comes to my beloved anxiety and depression pills. Me being fat now though is a side-effect of eating alot of junk food. My baldness is genetical.

Fat, lonely and chewing on brain pills? That's the classic SJW online stereotype. As you've declared yourself the most manly among us and most opposed to anything SJW, it sounds like its high time for you to go full Manowar on your issues. Burn that gut, fix your head, and get a woman who's into cue balls.

Oops, was that too unwoke for you?

PS: Kyle Aaron, our forum's Aussie bodybuilder, is worth PMing if you want to discuss health and fitness.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1097834Fat, lonely and chewing on brain pills? That's the classic SJW online stereotype. As you've declared yourself the most manly among us and most opposed to anything SJW, it sounds like its high time for you to go full Manowar on your issues. Burn that gut, fix your head, and get a woman who's into cue balls.

Oops, was that too unwoke for you?

PS: Kyle Aaron, our forum's Aussie bodybuilder, is worth PMing if you want to discuss health and fitness.

I am the most manly among you. If I want to start lifting I will consult the Arnold blueprint. I don't want to become a modern day bubblegut bodybuilder. They look abnormal. And if I started pumping iron I wouldn't want to start with powerlifting either, since they still look fat regardless how strong they are. Schwarzenegger looked like he was cut from granite with a perfect vacuum and V taper. That's what I would want to look like if I didn't love pizza so much. But being 47 it's too late. I should have started training as a teen.

And I never said I was lonely. I'm alone. Not lonely. My agoraphobia and other stuff will get better when I move to a smaller town in a couple of years.

Btw, is this your Aussie bodybuilder Kyle Aaron?
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bl7rc-YFvA_/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet (https://www.instagram.com/p/Bl7rc-YFvA_/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet)

I hope not, because this is what I would want to achieve. Some bodybuilders state that Arnold had no legs. I disagree. The bodybuilders of today have disproportionate, weird looking thighs. And of course, today alot of pro bodybuilders even use synthol, either to look like freaks or to fix "weaker" body areas. And with their chicken drumstick legs they can't run. Hell they can't even walk properly without looking like they shat their pants.

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[video=youtube;tpZx-WSulb4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpZx-WSulb4[/youtube]

Quote from: Spinachcat;1097834If I had the right crew, I'd love to play a campaign of Burning Empires, but not on RPG night. RPG night is for RPGs! For me, its just an issue of expectations - RPGs, LARPS, boardgames, card games, minis games, and storygames can all be fun, but they're not the same thing.

Oh, silly, beautiful Spinachcat and his "RPGs are not RPGs". :) GSS, this nonsensical argument gets almost as heated as shit about woke politics.

Quote from: jeff37923;1096246Well, now I'm disappointed.

I apologize. It wasn't a well formed response and I'd rather respond with more thought. Unfortunately I've been busy so I'll try to approach this later.

Quote from: jeff37923;1095084Virtue Signaling - the action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.

Virtue signaling is the conspicuous expression of moral values.



It is. The conspicuous expression of moral values by people is usually done not to discuss a topic at hand, but to demonstrate the moral superiority of the poster in an attempt to ensure that they are higher up on the social ladder and thus their words have more importance than the rest who are involved in the discussion.

Ok. So what determines the difference from expressing one's views and 'virtue signaling'. To me it sounds like a judgement call. Who gets to determine that the expression of moral values is not to discuss the topic at hand and instead only demonstrate moral superiority? What if the person is actually genuine?

QuoteThe reader.

Sure. Whomever is reading can reach their own conclusions. So statements to this effect are subjective. That's fair enough, everyone has their own point of view, but it is only that. Every reader is going to interpret their own way.

QuoteWoke - The act of being very pretentious about how much you care about a social issue.

Again, the reader.

Ok makes sense. These statements are the subjective views of certain people.

QuoteWhy does not including such assume a lack of welcoming to the game?

The more people involved in our hobby the better for the game. Everyone can add their own personal experience and it will be a net positive. Each individual group has their right to handle the material they wish to face and that's fine. There should be less barriers for entry into our hobby simply because more people should be involved in our hobby. Certain people may not like some of the people joining the hobby, but they have no control over that and they shouldn't. They can choose to prevent those people from their personal games, but they can't and shouldn't prevent anyone from joining our hobby.

QuoteThere is no resistance as long as the characters fit in with the setting of the game or the plot of an adventure.

Who gets to decide that? The author of the adventure. If the author decides its appropriate then so be it. The author is the one writing the adventure. If a group doesn't like it, they are free to modify the adventure to suit their needs.

QuoteWhen the inclusion of minority characters is used to advertise a game or a person's appearance of moral superiority.

Again, who makes that call? Who decides that an author is only including minority character for the appearance of moral superiority?

QuoteYour question should be broader than that. ANY character included in the text should fit within the setting of the game or be essential to the plot of the adventure. Otherwise that character is extraneous. That character can be of any race, gender, species, or orientation - it is not just limited to non-binary or transgender.

Again, who decides if the character fits in the setting? The only authority in this matter is the author of the adventure.

QuoteThen why include them?

Why not?

QuoteIf you are including a character for no reason other than to include them, then aren't you just using them as a token? Isn't that even more insulting than just not including them at all?

Up to the author. Who else has any authority to tell an author what is appropriate for their adventure?

I've read through this entire thing and the whole idea that the RPG community hasn't been inclusive is a load of fetid dingo kidneys.

I've been gaming since '81, and I can tell you for a FACT that the RPG sub-culture has always been inclusive. I've met gamers of all walks of life: gay, black, Asian, women, etc.

back in the day, nobody gave two shits what your ethnicity, your politics, your religion, your whatever was in the real world. All that mattered was 1. do you like to play RPGs? and 2. are you a dick?

Because being a dick knows no boundaries.

So, IMO fuck the SJW revisionist history douche-nozzles. They have no idea what the fuck they're talking about. They came into a sub-culture to change it first and be gamers second, while the whole gaming sub-culture is by it's nature largely inclusive. These fuckwads want to go on a fucking witch hunt on individual gaming groups. I'm not going to exclude someone based on if they're gay, for example. BUT, if you're gay and a complete fucking asshole, you're getting the boot. Playing the fag card does not give you a pass for piss-poor behavior.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Snip

The more people involved in our hobby the better for the game.

Agreed, as long as we're defining "our" hobby as the hobby of playing RPGs.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Everyone can add their own personal experience and it will be a net positive.

"Diversity is our strength" Nope, if person X is a total douche at the table it's not a net possitive, but I'm sure you didn't really meant it like that so whatever.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Each individual group has their right to handle the material they wish to face and that's fine.

Yet you're going to contradict yourself at the end :D

Quote from: fixable;1097972There should be less barriers for entry into our hobby simply because more people should be involved in our hobby.

What "barriers" are those and can you prove they exist?
And no, there should be as many or as few people as people enjoy playing RPGs and have the time to do so.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Certain people may not like some of the people joining the hobby, but they have no control over that and they shouldn't.

And certain people may not like those of us who got here first, but they have no control over that and they shouldn't.

Quote from: fixable;1097972They can choose to prevent those people from their personal games, but they can't and shouldn't prevent anyone from joining our hobby.

I wish you were more specific as to who "those people" are.

I think that figthing against puritanical, moralistic, hollierthanthou assholes and their wishes to change our hobby to suit their propaganda is a good thing. Notice I don't mention political sides because I still remember the satanic panic and have noticed we're in a different moral panic. We just changed the brand of authoritarian fucks and they have a different villain to fight this time.

Funny how it always ends up being peaceful and inclusive nerds the target for these douchebags.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Snip

Who else has any authority to tell an author what is appropriate for their adventure?

And we get to the part where you contradict yourself.

So, do we have "the right to handle the material we wish to face"? or not?

We also have freedom of expresion (until they manage to remove that too) and can criticize whatever we wish to.

And we still live in a mostly free market world, so until that changes we can vote with our wallets. And combining our free speech with this means we can also tell others not to buy X.

And no author, from whataver political side, religion, nationality, sex, sexuality or race has the privilege of this not being done to their works. At least until they manage to instate the 0.5% of the population as the new aristocrats or they manage to enshrine a regresive theocracy instead of democracy.

Quote from: fixable;1097971I apologize. It wasn't a well formed response and I'd rather respond with more thought. Unfortunately I've been busy so I'll try to approach this later.

OK, you wait two weeks and then want to respond instead of dropping the subject?

I am living rent free inside of your head.......

Quote from: fixable;1097972Ok. So what determines the difference from expressing one's views and 'virtue signaling'. To me it sounds like a judgement call. Who gets to determine that the expression of moral values is not to discuss the topic at hand and instead only demonstrate moral superiority? What if the person is actually genuine?

Common sense determines it because genuine people don't have to make a big production out of their beliefs. This applies for both SJWs and Moral Majority members.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Sure. Whomever is reading can reach their own conclusions. So statements to this effect are subjective. That's fair enough, everyone has their own point of view, but it is only that. Every reader is going to interpret their own way.

Glad that you are in agreement with me.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Ok makes sense. These statements are the subjective views of certain people.

No, they are the definitions of the terms.

Quote from: fixable;1097972The more people involved in our hobby the better for the game. Everyone can add their own personal experience and it will be a net positive. Each individual group has their right to handle the material they wish to face and that's fine. There should be less barriers for entry into our hobby simply because more people should be involved in our hobby. Certain people may not like some of the people joining the hobby, but they have no control over that and they shouldn't. They can choose to prevent those people from their personal games, but they can't and shouldn't prevent anyone from joining our hobby.

If each individual Group can handle themselves how they wish, then why does the Nu Moral Majority insist on every group being inclusive and diverse?

I also disagree that more = better. I'd rather have some quality people who are interested in the hobby regardless of their minority status then have a bunch of people come in to the hobby just for some political reason.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Who gets to decide that? The author of the adventure. If the author decides its appropriate then so be it. The author is the one writing the adventure. If a group doesn't like it, they are free to modify the adventure to suit their needs.

Or not buy the product at all - which is what is happening to those businessesd who have got woke and gone broke.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Again, who makes that call? Who decides that an author is only including minority character for the appearance of moral superiority?

Again, common sense.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Again, who decides if the character fits in the setting? The only authority in this matter is the author of the adventure.

Context of the adventure setting itself. I would no more expect a European white male in Shogunate Era Japan then I would in Ancient Egypt, nor would I expect a Samurai wandering around with native Americans in 1500AD.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Why not?

I explained that already. Any character extraneous to the purpose of the material is needless padding. It is analogous to Herman Melville adding about a hundred pages of trivia on the whaling industry to Moby Dick.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Up to the author. Who else has any authority to tell an author what is appropriate for their adventure?

Sure, it is up to author to include token characters - but it insulting to do so because that character has no relevance to the material except as a token to virtue signal to the audience that the author is woke.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097848I am the most manly among you.

It's high time to man up and prove it.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097848That's what I would want to look like if I didn't love pizza so much.

Bodybuilders eat a fuckton of carbs.

Work out 6 days a week and you can love all the pizza you want.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097848But being 47 it's too late.

Bullshit weak sauce excuse. Guys in wheelchairs go to the gym...and bang chicks.  

Google Bob Delmontenque to see what 80+ years old can look like.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097848And I never said I was lonely. I'm alone. Not lonely.

The most manly among us would not let his cueball get in the way of dating.

Living alone is great. Sex alone is not.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097848My agoraphobia and other stuff will get better when I move to a smaller town in a couple of years.

The most manly among us would take action NOW, not "a couple of years".

Also, stop being afraid of Ancient Greek marketplaces.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097848Btw, is this your Aussie bodybuilder Kyle Aaron?
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bl7rc-YFvA_/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet (https://www.instagram.com/p/Bl7rc-YFvA_/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet)

No idea. I think "Kyle Aaron" is his forum nickname because of his South Park viking hat avatar. However, he's posted excellent fitness and health advice for gamers, aka "middle aged fatasses" before so he's who I recommend PMing with because he knows our kind of scum.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097848Some bodybuilders state that Arnold had no legs. I disagree.

Arnold had legs like a tank. I saw him up close several times when I was involved with special education and special olympics pre-2000. Gregarious dude with a big smile and great with kids.

If Arnold is your idol, go walk in his steps.

Except for banging the housekeeper when your wife's pregnant. Or making bad Terminator sequels.

Skip those steps.

Quote from: jeff37923;1098042OK, you wait two weeks and then want to respond instead of dropping the subject?

I am living rent free inside of your head.......

Nope... I just thought it was courteous to respond. I apologize if I come off hard... but you are a pleasure to discuss with. I have no ill will towards you. We may have different views but I think we can relate. If I have gone too far, I apologize.

I don't really have much to comment on your responses other than I am working to understand your point of view. I think this is really an individual perception thing. Which means I can't have any qualms about how you or anyone else feels about this. I am a firm believer that a gaming group gets to decide what works for them.

I have problems understanding why there is resistance to any of this. I mean, if you have control of your game (and you should... it is your game) why the worry and concern?

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1097989Agreed, as long as we're defining "our" hobby as the hobby of playing RPGs.



"Diversity is our strength" Nope, if person X is a total douche at the table it's not a net possitive, but I'm sure you didn't really meant it like that so whatever.



Yet you're going to contradict yourself at the end :D



What "barriers" are those and can you prove they exist?
And no, there should be as many or as few people as people enjoy playing RPGs and have the time to do so.



And certain people may not like those of us who got here first, but they have no control over that and they shouldn't.



I wish you were more specific as to who "those people" are.

I think that figthing against puritanical, moralistic, hollierthanthou assholes and their wishes to change our hobby to suit their propaganda is a good thing. Notice I don't mention political sides because I still remember the satanic panic and have noticed we're in a different moral panic. We just changed the brand of authoritarian fucks and they have a different villain to fight this time.

Funny how it always ends up being peaceful and inclusive nerds the target for these douchebags.



And we get to the part where you contradict yourself.

So, do we have "the right to handle the material we wish to face"? or not?

We also have freedom of expresion (until they manage to remove that too) and can criticize whatever we wish to.

And we still live in a mostly free market world, so until that changes we can vote with our wallets. And combining our free speech with this means we can also tell others not to buy X.

And no author, from whataver political side, religion, nationality, sex, sexuality or race has the privilege of this not being done to their works. At least until they manage to instate the 0.5% of the population as the new aristocrats or they manage to enshrine a regresive theocracy instead of democracy.

Nope. Not a contradiction. An author has the right to include whatever they deem appropriate to their adventure.

Whether a DM decides to use that content is entirely up to them. DM's alter, change, and update content of adventure modules all the time to support their own approach to the game. What DM has not adapted an adventure to suit their group and their campaign?

My point is if an adventure is written with LGBTQ characters, a DM who doesn't want that in their campaign is free to ignore that. Those who do care, get representation, those who don't can just change it to what they want. Why is this an issue?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1098048It's high time to man up and prove it.


 

Bodybuilders eat a fuckton of carbs.

Work out 6 days a week and you can love all the pizza you want.




Bullshit weak sauce excuse. Guys in wheelchairs go to the gym...and bang chicks.  

Google Bob Delmontenque to see what 80+ years old can look like.




The most manly among us would not let his cueball get in the way of dating.

Living alone is great. Sex alone is not.




The most manly among us would take action NOW, not "a couple of years".

Also, stop being afraid of Ancient Greek marketplaces.




No idea. I think "Kyle Aaron" is his forum nickname because of his South Park viking hat avatar. However, he's posted excellent fitness and health advice for gamers, aka "middle aged fatasses" before so he's who I recommend PMing with because he knows our kind of scum.




Arnold had legs like a tank. I saw him up close several times when I was involved with special education and special olympics pre-2000. Gregarious dude with a big smile and great with kids.

If Arnold is your idol, go walk in his steps.

Except for banging the housekeeper when your wife's pregnant. Or making bad Terminator sequels.

Skip those steps.

Thanks for the advice on googling that Bob Delmontenque guy. Since my safe search is always off I got alot of "interesting" poses from his youth. I couldn't scroll down to find any pics of him as an old man because the fragrance of the cock bouquet pic collections teared my eyes. But he has worked out all his life. But as an old man he can't develop muscle mass without using other stuff than 6 raw eggs in the morning.

And the advice to work out 6 days a week in order to be able to eat all the pizza I want would frankly kill me. And if I wanted to work out I would want to become big, not like the men and the women who train every day but has no muscle to show for it. I would need to train like Arnold, 5-6 hours per day. I would also need to follow his old school steroid cycle. Even though it isn't anything compared to the amount of shit modern bodybuilders (even the fake naturals) use it could still fuck me up at 47.

But I have lost weight in the past and I know how to do it. But I just have other issues that need my effort right now. Like not strangling the neighbours kids when they bounce a football INSIDE the apartment. That's just shitty parenthood. Tell those fucking ugly gnats to go out and play instead. We have brand new football fields for kids near here, with real football goals, artificial grass, the works. Stuff we never had as a kids.

As for manning up what else do you want me to do? Challenge you to a duel? A rap battle or a dance off? Are you possessed by Patrick Swayze?

It's crowds that I hate btw, that gives me panic attacks. I just isolated myself too long, got a tad of that old cabin fever along with the depression. The slum neighbourhood where I live now houses about 9000 people. The small town where I want to move and where I have alot of family members has 12000 living in the central parts. It's just the kind of small town I need. The queue system gets me 1 point every day and I need about 700 minimum in order to be number 5 on the list of applicants who gets a showing of a specific apartment. So roughly two years. I have about 250 points now.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1098065But he has worked out all his life. But as an old man he can't develop muscle mass without using other stuff than 6 raw eggs in the morning.

The most manly among us should be able to look at a dick pic without panicking.

Here's an article on really old people who began fitness training when they were older than you.
http://www.oldest.org/sports/bodybuilders/

AKA, nobody with working arms and legs has any excuse.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1098065And the advice to work out 6 days a week in order to be able to eat all the pizza I want would frankly kill me.

Plenty of soccer moms work out 6 days a week.

The most manly among us could easily do it.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1098065I would need to train like Arnold, 5-6 hours per day. I would also need to follow his old school steroid cycle.

It would get you out of the apartment so you could stop worrying about kids playing inside their own home.

And if you're around when the kids bounce the ball, solve the problem with headphones + death metal.

If your big problem is the neighbor kids bopping a ball against a wall, you have NO problems.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1098065It's crowds that I hate btw, that gives me panic attacks.

Buy a Slayer shirt, an iPod and mirrorshades. Crowds will part like the Red Sea.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1098065The slum neighbourhood where I live now houses about 9000 people.

Why is the most manly among us living in a slum?

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1098065It's just the kind of small town I need.

Then go there now.

At bare minimum, the most manly among us would do whatever it takes to fast forward that time table.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1098065As for manning up what else do you want me to do?

YOU are the one who declared those of us with differing opinions on who we'd game with were "woke" and then YOU went on a bitchy little McBitchfest.
 
YOU are the one who declared himself most manly among us. That's all on you.

So what do I want you to do? Get off your fucking knees and do whatever it takes to not have such a pathetic
sounding life. It's a bad Tangency thread at RPG.net. Let the SJW brigade have the slums, the fat asses and the bullshit anxieties they milk for feels and vibes.