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Author Topic: Six Cultures of Play  (Read 5062 times)

Wrath of God

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Six Cultures of Play
« on: November 29, 2021, 02:56:07 PM »
So listening to one of my favourite Polish RPG podcasts I found link to this IMHO very interesting article dividing community of RPG at large into six big cultures with different methods, purposes and agendas in playing. This is quite interesting model or theory I must say, I think ticking more boxes than simplicity of GNS (though my authism loves this simplicity) and while it's USA centric I have to say I've seen all those aspects, and mentalities many times on Polish scene, in discussions, just of course without any systematic thought to organise them.

I think specifically Climate Gang (Klimaciarze) aka Nordic LARP were very vocal here in Poland, I always had feeling that something very local, as I rarely met examples of that in Anglophone RPG discussions alas it seems they exist(ed) among Anglosaxons as well, enough to land among Big Six.

Six Cultures of Play

So what do you think about this division of RPG community into specific sub-cultures? Would you add any? Merge some of those proposed together?
"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.”

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S'mon

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Re: Six Cultures of Play
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2021, 06:08:58 PM »
Makes a lot of sense. Really helped me understand what those young whippersnappers are on about with their "OC" games and their pastel-coloured Tiefling hermaphrodite PCs.  ;D

I guess my style is mostly somewhere between Classic & OSR, I definitely think of the 1e AD&D DMG as my default reference for what RPGing is supposed to be. I tend to like PCs & NPCs with more inner life than you tend to see in those styles when done 'pure' though, so I'm pretty compatible with moderate OC gamers. The ones who don't mind *too* much when their lovely PCs die.  ;D

caldrail

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Re: Six Cultures of Play
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2021, 06:45:19 PM »
What's my style? Well, on a certain other site I was lambasted for being 'arbitrary' because I mentioned that I wasn't a slave to the rules. I don't think I am. I prefer to create an interactive game with every opportunity for improvisational dialogue. Sure sometimes I have to make decisions on the fly - welcome to the world of game mastering - but I want players to feel they have a say in how the game progresses. I remember one infamous character who ran a game and virtually controlled our characters for us. It wasn't fun.

Wrath of God

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Re: Six Cultures of Play
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2021, 06:52:57 PM »
Interestingly enough D&D 3 and 4, which are very gamist (well 3 trying to bow a bit to simulationism) seems in this equation to be more classic and Gygaxian if anything.
Sure they went from rules-light to rules-heavy but there is clear assumption of certaint social contract of proper challenges and rise in power to take new challenges, more than OSR-ian sandbox approach. Otherwise they don't fit anything else - sure you can apply Trad mode to them - but TBH Trad culture as described by Retired Adventurer is probably most system neutral attitude of all presented - all you need are players willing to be railroaded by GM, and any RPG with GM (ergo 99,9% of them) would suit, even those vehemently denying such posibility, even very narrative ones like PBTA, all can be hijacked for Trad Culture.

I'd also notice, that if we take those two ideals of Classic and OSR, then definitely Classic still live within OSR, because while many GM's here had specifically very sandbox-simulator approach (tenbones and SHARK came to mind) there are also others who go very strong to Challenge mode and "you have no name till you finish first dungeon", and that seems Classic.

Simmilarily if I compare Games - Dungeon Crawls Classic seems to be designed with Classic in thought, while I think Pundit's games with their strong setting centred approach fits within simulationist zeitgeist. I think I could take any of his settings and play it with BRP rules for instance, and still keep spirit, this old D&D mechanics seems to be easy to replace.
Meanwhile DCC - somehow I cannot see it, it's very much gaming experience.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2021, 06:57:36 PM by Wrath of God »
"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.”

"And I will strike down upon thee
With great vengeance and furious anger"


"Molti Nemici, Molto Onore"

jhkim

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Re: Six Cultures of Play
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2021, 07:53:44 PM »
So what do you think about this division of RPG community into specific sub-cultures? Would you add any? Merge some of those proposed together?

So the division suggested is:

1) "Classic" - starting with Basic Set / AD&D1 style and similar
2) "Trad" - starting with Call of Cthulhu along with Dragonlance and similar
3) "Nordic Larp"
4) "Story Games" - starting with The Forge and into Powered by the Apocalypse
5) "OSR" - starting with Labyrinth Lord and others
6) "OC/Neo-trad" - starting with D&D3 organized play

I feel like the essay slices very thinly to distinguish between "classic" and "OSR" -- while at the same time lumping together nearly all non-D&D play under "trad", which it broadly characterizes as "the Dungeon Master creating an elaborate, emotionally-satisfying narrative". This ​comes across to me as "If you're not playing D&D, then you're just acting out the GM's story." This is emphasized further by how it describes the OSR as "The goal is a game where PC decision-making, especially diegetic decision-making, is the driver of play."

That seems very dismissive to me. Yes, there have been plenty of railroaded, GM-story games in non-D&D systems -- but there have also been lots of railroaded games within D&D in every era. There have been plenty of non-D&D, non-OSR games where PC decision-making is important - from Traveller to GURPS to lots of others.

There is variation within games and within sub-communities. There were a number of modules that were more linear - like Dragonlance or later Ravenloft modules, plus some other games like Deadlands and Torg. But there have always been GMs and groups that emphasized PC decision-making.

Wrath of God

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Re: Six Cultures of Play
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2021, 08:01:41 PM »
I will write more about my thoughts in the morning.
I think clearly bias towards Classic and OSR is seen, and it may weaken other descriptions a bit, but I think you're making mistake equating Classic and OSR strictly with D&D. There is underlying philosophy that can be used in more wide approach.

And of course there is big chance lots and lots of gamers played... outside cultures.
Also let's note Trad playstyle according to this leaked into D&D and D&D for some time was Tradist, and Classic mores become less prevalent.
"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.”

"And I will strike down upon thee
With great vengeance and furious anger"


"Molti Nemici, Molto Onore"

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Six Cultures of Play
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2021, 09:41:47 PM »
That seems very dismissive to me.

Yup. While forgeworld may have pissed in the grognards cornflakes, they remain upset about it YEARS later.

And in terms of GMs story, I find the Pundits advice to be almost completly centered on pure GM satisfaction.

palaeomerus

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Re: Six Cultures of Play
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2021, 09:49:15 PM »
I just want my drug addicted dollar store Herculoids to rob automated banks in the ruins of the old empire and get in trouble and smash a sentient hyper-macguffin from the 2nd dawn of time and then try to keep the shadow people from finding out about it because they'll be SOOOO pissed if they do. 
Emery

Jam The MF

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Re: Six Cultures of Play
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2021, 11:10:22 PM »
Makes a lot of sense. Really helped me understand what those young whippersnappers are on about with their "OC" games and their pastel-coloured Tiefling hermaphrodite PCs.  ;D

I guess my style is mostly somewhere between Classic & OSR, I definitely think of the 1e AD&D DMG as my default reference for what RPGing is supposed to be. I tend to like PCs & NPCs with more inner life than you tend to see in those styles when done 'pure' though, so I'm pretty compatible with moderate OC gamers. The ones who don't mind *too* much when their lovely PCs die.  ;D


It's so easy to see the AD&D 1E DMG in that way, because it Did Define the genre.
Let the Dice, Decide the Outcome.  Accept the Results.

S'mon

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Re: Six Cultures of Play
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2021, 02:11:51 AM »
So what do you think about this division of RPG community into specific sub-cultures? Would you add any? Merge some of those proposed together?

So the division suggested is:

1) "Classic" - starting with Basic Set / AD&D1 style and similar
2) "Trad" - starting with Call of Cthulhu along with Dragonlance and similar
3) "Nordic Larp"
4) "Story Games" - starting with The Forge and into Powered by the Apocalypse
5) "OSR" - starting with Labyrinth Lord and others
6) "OC/Neo-trad" - starting with D&D3 organized play

I feel like the essay slices very thinly to distinguish between "classic" and "OSR" -- while at the same time lumping together nearly all non-D&D play under "trad", which it broadly characterizes as "the Dungeon Master creating an elaborate, emotionally-satisfying narrative". This ​comes across to me as "If you're not playing D&D, then you're just acting out the GM's story." This is emphasized further by how it describes the OSR as "The goal is a game where PC decision-making, especially diegetic decision-making, is the driver of play."

That seems very dismissive to me. Yes, there have been plenty of railroaded, GM-story games in non-D&D systems -- but there have also been lots of railroaded games within D&D in every era. There have been plenty of non-D&D, non-OSR games where PC decision-making is important - from Traveller to GURPS to lots of others.

There is variation within games and within sub-communities. There were a number of modules that were more linear - like Dragonlance or later Ravenloft modules, plus some other games like Deadlands and Torg. But there have always been GMs and groups that emphasized PC decision-making.

Yes, I think he doesn't split out simulation world exploration focused play (Traveller, Harn) from challenge-focused Classic play - you could say Nordic Larp is a narrow, extreme subset of world-sim play with a stronger emphasis on deep immersion? I've only ever experienced deep-immersion play with a German GM, which may be significant!

S'mon

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Re: Six Cultures of Play
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2021, 02:27:22 AM »
So I think one can quibble with the splits he makes. But I do find it useful to think about different gaming cultures and their expectations. Players with different gaming-cultural expectations can clash with each other and with the GM. Neo-Trad/OC culture players tend to have heavy investment in their PCs, they enjoy the freedom of action in my games, but hate when their PCs die, to the extent of often quitting the game. Indeed I've seen a player quit because another player's PC died. In their culture it's really NOT OK to kill a PC without player permission.

I think Trad linear play splits into
1. focus on a rich, emotionally satisfying narrative created by the author and implemented by the GM, and
2. "focus on charop & challenge, with the story potentially a thin - if colourful - veneer to facilitate this.

In type 1, players don't expect to have to minmax their PCs, they focus more on developing the personalities of the protagonists in a largely pre-written story. Dragonlance & 2e AD&D fit there.
In type 2 the main focus is on the pre-game, building powerful PCs and seeing them blast through the pre-set challenges. Pathfinder & the Paizo APs fit here.

___________

I don't really think the typology covers 4e D&D style play either; putting it in Classic for the challenge focus doesn't feel right, the adventures are Trad (& bad) but the rules frame is closer to OC with more challenge.

Shawn Driscoll

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Re: Six Cultures of Play
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2021, 04:26:11 AM »
Six Cultures of Play
So what do you think about this division of RPG community into specific sub-cultures?
I don't match any of the cultures on that list. Too niche, I guess.

Wrath of God

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Re: Six Cultures of Play
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2021, 05:30:52 AM »
Quote
Yes, I think he doesn't split out simulation world exploration focused play (Traveller, Harn) from challenge-focused Classic play - you could say Nordic Larp is a narrow, extreme subset of world-sim play with a stronger emphasis on deep immersion? I've only ever experienced deep-immersion play with a German GM, which may be significant!

Well I'd say OSR is that, in spirit.
That's why those aspects of OSR that are too into D&D 1e are more epigones of Classic than OSR as new thing.

And of course I think this style was around just bit shorter than classic, it's clear even from OSR/D&D fans that some played games Classic and some OSR, long long time ago.

But remember this article is not just trying to categorize all game styles around, all tables, but more culture. Ergo larger conglomerations, vocal, ones that shaped discourse for decades. They did not have to be most numerous in number of players (note that there is no something like Casual Culture here - though who knows maybe in 20 years we gonna define one based on modern evolution of 5e scene).

Polish scene for instance started with Trad who soon went into war with Nordic Larp, and later when D&D 3.5 appeared in Poland it was scoffed by both as Boardgame, Roll-playing, Wargame and so on. 4e even much more, due to it's videogame like designs.

And then we should also remember that with all those elements: mechanic design, adventure design, worldbuilding, GM's agenda, Player's agenda - all those can easily mix and merge weirdly between cultures.

For instance Vampire I'd say is generally TradGame (skill based mechanics trying to sim abilities of vampire), but how game was marketed it was much more into LARP type of experience, or maybe even protostorygaming. Emotions and deep deep drama were promised, but game itself did little to none to truly enforce it. So to get this emotional immersion and bleed XD players had to go full amateur actors themselves. And TBH Nordic Larp seems to be one style that can easily engulf almost any mechanics and setting, because it's fundament is - that players and GM should act a lot, and their acting abilities be high enough for mutual immersion, and then you can play 1e, Warhammer, Vampire or Blades in the Dark, and put it into Nordic LARP culture.
"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.”

"And I will strike down upon thee
With great vengeance and furious anger"


"Molti Nemici, Molto Onore"

jhkim

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Re: Six Cultures of Play
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2021, 02:44:30 PM »
I feel like the essay slices very thinly to distinguish between "classic" and "OSR" -- while at the same time lumping together nearly all non-D&D play under "trad", which it broadly characterizes as "the Dungeon Master creating an elaborate, emotionally-satisfying narrative". This ​comes across to me as "If you're not playing D&D, then you're just acting out the GM's story." This is emphasized further by how it describes the OSR as "The goal is a game where PC decision-making, especially diegetic decision-making, is the driver of play."
Yes, I think he doesn't split out simulation world exploration focused play (Traveller, Harn) from challenge-focused Classic play - you could say Nordic Larp is a narrow, extreme subset of world-sim play with a stronger emphasis on deep immersion? I've only ever experienced deep-immersion play with a German GM, which may be significant!

Well I'd say OSR is that, in spirit.
That's why those aspects of OSR that are too into D&D 1e are more epigones of Classic than OSR as new thing.

To be clear: I appreciate an emphasis on having PC decision-making matter. I just find it confusing to label this as "OSR" - when it applies to lots of games long prior to games that call themselves OSR.

Players have been complaining about railroading since very early in RPGs. There have always been lots of games where the plot was forced. This was prominent in the 1970s with tournament modules that often had a linear series of challenges. It was prominent in the 1980s with modules like Dragonlance and later Ravenloft modules that have a chapter-by-chapter structures, paralleled by similar modules for other games like Star Wars and Shadowrun.

But there has also always been a movement and advice against railroading, and letting PC decision-making matter. S'mon cites Traveller and HarnMaster - but lots of game books have had good advice about how to make PC decision-making matter - like Aaron Allston's classic HERO System material, for example.

S'mon

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Re: Six Cultures of Play
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2021, 02:55:15 PM »
But there has also always been a movement and advice against railroading, and letting PC decision-making matter. S'mon cites Traveller and HarnMaster - but lots of game books have had good advice about how to make PC decision-making matter - like Aaron Allston's classic HERO System material, for example.

I was talking about games that focus on world simulation & exploration, and immersion in the milieu. That likely involves choice, but so does challenge-focused 'Classic' play - I wasn't talking about games where decisions matter vs ones where they don't.