So I'm looking for a system that is roughly as simple as War Machine from the D&D companion rules but is a little more intersting and dynamic in play. Maybe a little troop movement but nothing as indepth as a real miniatures war game. Any good candidates?
Battlesystem or the trimmed down rules from Birthright? I know theres one or two others.
GURPS Mass Combat is pretty direct. Total up troop strengths, modify for exceptional advantages like fliers and warmachines, compare odds, roll Strategy skill contest, apply casualties, repeat.
Quote from: Omega;974497Battlesystem or the trimmed down rules from Birthright? I know theres one or two others.
I've heard good things about Douglas Niles' 2e rewrite of Battlesystem (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/16943/Battlesystem-Miniatures-Rules-2e?it=1) and the skirmish supplement.
My go-to rules for mass combat is TSR's "Chainmail." I usually get rid of most of the details and focus on the one mass-combat chart which simply has you match up the unit types and then roll bunches of d6's. Chainmail also has some options for fantasy combat (spells, orcs, that kind of thing).
EDIT: Added a link. Looks like it's a $5 PDF. :D
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17010/Chainmail-Rules-for-Medieval-Miniatures-0e?it=1
I've used tweaked War Machine on tactical hex maps, repurposing SPI's Medieval Battles Quad, using both battlefields and counters.
War Machine is a strategic engine, so scale is off, so I futzed around a bit with casualty ratios to make to make it fit better for unit vs unit combat. I did borrow some things from FGU's Bushido, but I don't recall the details, I think it may have been casualty breakdown ratios.
The main thing was to allow reasonable maneuver and to localize areas of spell effects. It worked OK.
I designed a war combat system for fifth edition based on the winner of the thought eater contest. (http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2017/01/the-end-of-thought-eater.html?zx=d8154337e3f40e2e) It doesn't have troop movement (its content with the typical abstractions of D&D combat) but overall I was very satisfied with the result. You can check it out right here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f0lrVgxAek1APejqwEp6YBSaZ0yz05BjpKXLrAhfsD0/edit?usp=sharing) and here's an example of a an army stat block, with art (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B17FqxHToBrxWS1oYVpUejNlTzQ/view?usp=sharing).
I also put up a somewhat easier to reference blog post about it (http://mushroompress.blogspot.com/2017/07/war-combat-in-fifth-edition.html), which has my design notes.
Quote from: David Johansen;974502GURPS Mass Combat is pretty direct. Total up troop strengths, modify for exceptional advantages like fliers and warmachines, compare odds, roll Strategy skill contest, apply casualties, repeat.
For paper only resolution I concur that GURPS Mass Combat is the way to go.
For something that uses figures or tokens go with 1st edition Battlesystem (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/11187/advanced-dungeons-dragons-battlesystem). You can use it with the ascending AC of later editions by following the formula from this blog post of mine.
Adapting Ascending AC to Battle System (http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2013/08/adapting-1st-edition-battlesystem-to.html)
The relevant part
QuoteNormally it works like this.
2d6+ THACO-AC + modifiers.
I played around with the numbers and found this works
2d6+Ascending AC-To Hit Bonus+modifiers.
The result from using Swords & Wizardry with Ascending AC and a to hit bonus for characters.
One Thousand Four Hundred and Fifty Orcs Slain (http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2013/08/one-thousand-four-hundred-and-fifty.html)
Reflections on a lot of Dead (http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2013/08/reflections-on-lot-of-dead-orcs.html)
The thing to remember is that 1e Battlesystem is a math hack that allow any AD&D 1e character or monster to be used in mass combat. As it turned out it works with just about anything that uses a d20 for attack versus a target number.
I believe that there are mass combat rules out there for ACKS (called ACKS Domains at War (http://drivethrurpg.com/product/130961/ACKS-Domains-at-War-The-Complete-Set)) and Red Tide (called An Echo, Resounding: A Sourcebook for Lordship and War (http://drivethrurpg.com/product/99063/An-Echo-Resounding-A-Sourcebook-for-Lordship-and-War)). I can't vouch for either one, but they exist, and both come from systems with justifiably good reputations.
You should ask Black Vulmea about how Flashing Blades does it; he probably could tell you better. It allows the PCs to play a role as well.
Quote from: Dumarest;974606You should ask Black Vulmea about how Flashing Blades does it; he probably could tell you better. It allows the PCs to play a role as well.
It works well where what happens to and with the PCs is more important than determining through play what happens in a campaign of battles and where battles are between fairly equivalent sides.
You count the number of companies on each side with modifiers for troop types
Quote- All companies of Musketeers count double
- All companies of Knights count double (see section 5.62)
- In a Battle, all Cavalry troops count double
- In a Siege or Under Siege, all Artillery companies count double
- In an Attack, all Grenadier companies count double
That total is your army strength. Each side rolls 2d6 and adds that to their army strength. There are a few more modifiers for brilliant maneuvers (if any) and the rank of the commanding officer.
QuoteNow the Army Strengths for the encounter are compared, and the
lesser value is subtracted from the greater. This is the number of companies
lost by the losing army (the lesser). If the Strengths are equal,
both sides lose one company. This process is repeated for each of the
three encounters that make up the Campaign, The side with the least
losses at the end wins the Campaign.
If the army strengths are unequal battles are a foregone conclusion. Which may, or may not be what one wants in a battle system.
Quote from: Edgewise;974594I believe that there are mass combat rules out there for ACKS (called ACKS Domains at War (http://drivethrurpg.com/product/130961/ACKS-Domains-at-War-The-Complete-Set)) and Red Tide (called An Echo, Resounding: A Sourcebook for Lordship and War (http://drivethrurpg.com/product/99063/An-Echo-Resounding-A-Sourcebook-for-Lordship-and-War)). I can't vouch for either one, but they exist, and both come from systems with justifiably good reputations.
I can personally vouch for the ACKs mass combat system. It's truly brilliant in that it mathematically weds round-by-round combat with a larger battle by doing all the power-math behind the curtains. What it leaves you and your players with is a swiftly-intuited system for playing out mass battles as heroes, generals, victims, anything.
Unfortunately none of those systems seem to include TACTICS. CHAINMAIL should be more than just line up troops and grind 'em together. Terrain and maneuver is what wind battles, not dice rolling.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;974619Unfortunately none of those systems seem to include TACTICS. CHAINMAIL should be more than just line up troops and grind 'em together. Terrain and maneuver is what wind battles, not dice rolling.
Hey Gronan, have you ever given though to using Warmaster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warmaster)to resolve battles in-game? I found a copy at a second hand store and I've been really impressed that it emphasizes maneuver and positioning over stat blocks.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;974619Unfortunately none of those systems seem to include TACTICS. CHAINMAIL should be more than just line up troops and grind 'em together. Terrain and maneuver is what win battles, not dice rolling.
Terrain, maneuver and morale. You (generally) break armies, you don't kill them, especially in the days before firearms. I don't think the OP wants something from wargaming but others interested in this subject might want to look at edition six of War Games Research Group's ancient and medieval wargame rules. Of course, they have to be modified. Adding in magic gives one many opportunities to break the opponent's troops.
Quote from: estar;974586The thing to remember is that 1e Battlesystem is a math hack that allow any AD&D 1e character or monster to be used in mass combat. As it turned out it works with just about anything that uses a d20 for attack versus a target number.
That was the inspiration for my Ship-to-Ship and Mass Combat Rules for Earthdawn 4e, being able to use all the statblocks from the base-game. Also, the ability to run a scenario either abstractly (on paper or narratively) OR on a map w/ tokens as a tactical scenario with the same system is really nice. I have a preview up of my rules in the Design forum: http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?37161-Earthdawn-4E-Ship-and-Mass-Combat
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;974619Unfortunately none of those systems seem to include TACTICS. CHAINMAIL should be more than just line up troops and grind 'em together. Terrain and maneuver is what wind battles, not dice rolling.
I don't know which system you are referring too. But 1e Battlesystem has terrain rules and accounts for flanking and morale. GURPS Mass Combat is meant to be more abstract a more sophisticated version of the old Avalon Hill and SPI CRTs. The meat of the action in the GURPS rules is using a strategy or operational level map to maneuver units. As for ACKS it been a while I read the rules but like 1e Battlesystem I remember it having moral, terrain, and other traditional miniature wargame mechanics.
Quote from: Telarus;974630That was the inspiration for my Ship-to-Ship and Mass Combat Rules for Earthdawn 4e, being able to use all the statblocks from the base-game. Also, the ability to run a scenario either abstractly (on paper or narratively) OR on a map w/ tokens as a tactical scenario with the same system is really nice. I have a preview up of my rules in the Design forum: http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?37161-Earthdawn-4E-Ship-and-Mass-Combat
Excellent! When it comes to RPGs I think mass combat system work best if they can be easily extrapolated from the game's stat blocks. However I dislike treating units as a huge monster with a big bag of hit points. I am a fan 1e Battlesystem because their CRT mash together the binomial distribution of the odds of X number of guys hitting a target with a standard to hit roll with various damage dice.
I tried to figure out the math behind the Battlesystem CRT but the closest I got is this blog post.
War System or Battle Machine? Along with a Chart (http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2010/06/war-system-or-battle-machine-along-with.html)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mFjy4EWzmtg/TBKQ_lOb1SI/AAAAAAAAA60/0wuTjkxDqfI/s1600/WarSystem+Chart+1.jpg)
huh, I forgot War Law for Rolemaster. It uses a hex grid and counters but makes the map small for most encounters so it works as a sideboard for the rpg rather than dominating a table. And yes, there are lots of charts and tables but it takes into account a lot of fun things like fatigue, and the general level of injury among the troops rather than just full on casualties. Really it's pretty good and integrates with Sea Law so you can sail your galleys up the river and torch the orcs with your fire siphons.
Quote from: estar;974631As for ACKS it been a while I read the rules but like 1e Battlesystem I remember it having moral, terrain, and other traditional miniature wargame mechanics.
Yes. Here is it in action:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-g9r-3gRmOxc/VKf7N70CTzI/AAAAAAAABYM/ulQaZRcVqr0/s1600/SAM_0036.JPG)
And you don't only need worry about terrain, maneuver and morale. You better make sure you keep your army adequately supplied as well.
Another option is Delta's Book of War (http://www.lulu.com/shop/daniel-collins/original-edition-delta-book-of-war/paperback/product-17158134.html). It's an attempt to mechanically replicate OD&D combat at 1:10 scale, inspired by Chainmail, and fits in a 24 page digest sized book. Many playtesting examples on his blog.
Quote from: ligedog;974493So I'm looking for a system that is roughly as simple as War Machine from the D&D companion rules but is a little more intersting and dynamic in play. Maybe a little troop movement but nothing as indepth as a real miniatures war game. Any good candidates?
Dark Albion has a mass-combat system, but it is significantly more simplistic than War Machine. It might be too far on the other side of the spectrum from what you're looking for.