A game probably has poor design if it's never critiqued as having poor design.

I definitely wouldn't consider things like adventure modules, settings, etc as bloat.

Quote from: Shasarak on November 23, 2020, 10:18:06 PM
<snipped for sanity>

What're you trying to prove here? That TSR cranked out a shitload of 2E material, across four or more settings? Yeah, no shit sherlock.

But if you're arguing rules bloat, you done fucked up by including things like Volo's guides or the DL artbooks.

I think the point Shasarak was trying to make it's not so much poor rules design so much bad for the company profits in the long run to have so much stock to keep in print. Then again Lorraine Williams thought we were all losers and lesser form of life so she probably mandated that TSR keep cranking out stuff since she figured we would by any crap. Unless an rpg company is smart which imo TSR was not keeping all that in print was probably taking a decent chunk of their profits. TSR fate was sealed when they began screwing around with Random House which was a major book publisher at the time: https://www.enworld.org/threads/when-random-house-sued-tsr-for-9-5m.667729/ .

Yeah TSR was screwed. Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Quote from: Itachi on November 23, 2020, 11:18:56 PM
Honestly, I never understood the need for so much stuff myself. I don't even grok the separation of a game in GM book + Players book. Runequest 2e was just a single, thin book, and with a supplement like Cults of Prax was enough for infinite games. If a game needs more than a single book for it's "basic experience", that's a hell of a red flag for me.

I decided upon a separate Player's and GM's Guide for my system in order to reduce the cost of entry for a new player as much as possible.

My target has always been for the player book to be in the $20-25 range (also the reason I'm going 6x9 softcover) making it an almost impulse buy level purchase. If I had gone with a combined Player/GM book in the usual RPG 8.5x11 hardcover format the cost of entry would be more like $50-60 for a new player and there'd be about half the book (the entire GM section) the player would just have no use for.

Low cost of entry is also why I long ago dropped my original plan for new options in every supplement for providing everything in the core Player's and GM Guides and all further supplements would just be world books (think Rifts style only just world detail instead of new options) and adventures.

For me poor game design is lack of proper organization of the rules in the core. With magic rules being in a section completely not related to magic etc... Author writing in personal opinions about game design and how great his rpg is compared to others and how it was properly tested when it reality it was not. Too many copy and paste errors or simply too many errors in the first printing (looking at your Shadworun 6 ) . Claiming that the rules are goiod and then adding "remember all rules are optional". Why the fuck am I buying your rpg if all the rules are optional. Having the option of writing two manuscripts A that the fans want and the B almost none of the fanbase do. Instead have Freelancer XYZ write manuscript B because he REALLY wants to write on it.

In case you missed it most of the list is from Palladium Books. One of the rpgs that while I still enjoy are the standard for me at least on poor game design.

Making one large core book like Pathfinder did. Great that it's all in one a pain the ass to lug around. To the point that I gave away my hardcovers and bought two pocket editions of the core. Trying to market the rpg as something other than D&D only purist edition warriors keep drawing a line in the sand between both. My gaming group still refers to it as D&D.

Quote from: sureshot on November 24, 2020, 08:54:58 AM
For me poor game design is lack of proper organization of the rules in the core. With magic rules being in a section completely not related to magic etc... Author writing in personal opinions about game design and how great his rpg is compared to others and how it was properly tested when it reality it was not. Too many copy and paste errors or simply too many errors in the first printing (looking at your Shadworun 6 ) . Claiming that the rules are goiod and then adding "remember all rules are optional". Why the fuck am I buying your rpg if all the rules are optional. Having the option of writing two manuscripts A that the fans want and the B almost none of the fanbase do. Instead have Freelancer XYZ write manuscript B because he REALLY wants to write on it.

In case you missed it most of the list is from Palladium Books. One of the rpgs that while I still enjoy are the standard for me at least on poor game design.

Making one large core book like Pathfinder did. Great that it's all in one a pain the ass to lug around. To the point that I gave away my hardcovers and bought two pocket editions of the core. Trying to market the rpg as something other than D&D only purist edition warriors keep drawing a line in the sand between both. My gaming group still refers to it as D&D.

If we're going to include physical properties of the books under bad design, then let's add in:
Shitty bindings.
Really small and/or narrow print.
Light print on dark backgrounds.
Huge margins that waste space.
Narrow margins where the text is lost in the spine.
Overuse of text wrapped around oddly shaped art.
Single-column walls of text.

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 24, 2020, 09:03:43 AM
Light print on dark backgrounds.
Narrow margins where the text is lost in the spine.

Those two are on my worst list as well. Fortunately, it seems like the era of fake parchment backgrounds on all RPG pages is over.

I'll also add "White text on a black background for games primarily sold as PDFs"; there's no way I'm printing that out.

That list Shasarak posted makes me think: Perhaps there's some critical mass of books that cause a system to explode into popularity? Below that mass, people can easily leave your system because they haven't "invested" the money in the books and the time studying them. Think of all the single-book OSR games. Wanna switch systems? No big deal. Once you reach critical mass, you lock people in because they have a shelf full of literature they've spent months or years studying. They are heavily invested in the system and are customers for life. And if you have enough of those core people, their gravity creates a scene that attracts new players, in fact, new players have to expend effort to avoid being pulled in. And then it all explodes and pretty soon you can't print new books fast enough to fuel the orgy.

And if you're really clever, you don't worry about incomplete books, in fact you encourage them, because you can patch over the holes in a new book and sell two books where one would have sufficed. Each incomplete book leaves a hook for the next one. Keep doing that and you are now selling a library of inter-meshed gears and cogs and your customers feel the need to buy each one lest they get detached from the machine. And finally, you know when you've won because Wall Street financial analysts are opining on your pretend elf game and your customer base (you don't call them players or GMs anymore) willingly gobbles up every shiny bobble of rehashed content that you shit out.

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 24, 2020, 09:36:12 AM
That list Shasarak posted makes me think: Perhaps there's some critical mass of books that cause a system to explode into popularity? Below that mass, people can easily leave your system because they haven't "invested" the money in the books and the time studying them. Think of all the single-book OSR games. Wanna switch systems? No big deal. Once you reach critical mass, you lock people in because they have a shelf full of literature they've spent months or years studying. They are heavily invested in the system and are customers for life. And if you have enough of those core people, their gravity creates a scene that attracts new players, in fact, new players have to expend effort to avoid being pulled in. And then it all explodes and pretty soon you can't print new books fast enough to fuel the orgy.

And if you're really clever, you don't worry about incomplete books, in fact you encourage them, because you can patch over the holes in a new book and sell two books where one would have sufficed. Each incomplete book leaves a hook for the next one. Keep doing that and you are now selling a library of inter-meshed gears and cogs and your customers feel the need to buy each one lest they get detached from the machine. And finally, you know when you've won because Wall Street financial analysts are opining on your pretend elf game and your customer base (you don't call them players or GMs anymore) willingly gobbles up every shiny bobble of rehashed content that you shit out.

There might also be a critical mass that, one crossed, pushes some gamers to stop even trying to keep up and to instead switch to pirating pdf copies (many of which will be read only once, at most).

Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 24, 2020, 09:34:45 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 24, 2020, 09:03:43 AM
Light print on dark backgrounds.
Narrow margins where the text is lost in the spine.

Those two are on my worst list as well. Fortunately, it seems like the era of fake parchment backgrounds on all RPG pages is over.

I'll also add "White text on a black background for games primarily sold as PDFs"; there's no way I'm printing that out.

White text on a black background is easier to read on a conventional screen. It sucks for printing.

Sans-serif fonts (e.g. Arial) are easier to read on a screen. Serif fonts (e.g. Times New Roman) are easier to read in print.

Conclusion? PDFs optimized for screen reading should not be used for printing, either personally or POD. You need two, one for screen and one for print. The downside is, if you have a specific "trade dress" for your work, you either have to have a screen variant and a print variant, or have a "trade dress" that favors one format over the other and take your lumps in the non-favored format.

TL;DR: PDF is not interchangeable with print; plan for both or suck in one or both.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 23, 2020, 10:51:13 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 23, 2020, 10:31:38 PM
What the fuck was that?!

Someone who can't define bloat.  And somehow thinks that adventure modules are examples of it.

Thats right man, you just double down.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 24, 2020, 08:24:43 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on November 23, 2020, 10:18:06 PM
<snipped for sanity>

What're you trying to prove here? That TSR cranked out a shitload of 2E material, across four or more settings? Yeah, no shit sherlock.

But if you're arguing rules bloat, you done fucked up by including things like Volo's guides or the DL artbooks.

I dont want to be mean to you because you probably just dont know that TSR mixed their new rules up with their new setting material.

Quote from: Shasarak on November 24, 2020, 02:50:11 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 24, 2020, 08:24:43 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on November 23, 2020, 10:18:06 PM
<snipped for sanity>

What're you trying to prove here? That TSR cranked out a shitload of 2E material, across four or more settings? Yeah, no shit sherlock.

But if you're arguing rules bloat, you done fucked up by including things like Volo's guides or the DL artbooks.

I dont want to be mean to you because you probably just dont know that TSR mixed their new rules up with their new setting material.

Do you need help moving those goalposts? I have a wheelbarrow.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 24, 2020, 03:48:20 PM
Do you need help moving those goalposts? I have a wheelbarrow.

You do have a wheel barrow.

And it is very nice one that you can use to move all of that 2e bloat.

Well, except for the bloat that you never brought, of course we can not move that.