Well, almost. I am starting this weekend a Swords & Wizardry White Box game, with Delta Houserules on top. So I guess is like running OD&D with some bits from Supplement I, or something like it.

Well, anyway, the other day we managed to get together most of my old CoC / 7th Sea / Traveller group, that was disbanded due to schedule incompatibilities (one of the girls had to move out town due to work, another was hired at the airport working most weekends very early in the morning, and another one is trying to pass the firemen test and get a degree in airplane maintenance at the same time). And as we waxed nostalgic about the great games we had, we decided that we would try to run a game on the hours that are available for Rebeca (airport girl) which are weekends from 14:00 to 20:00, as in Sundays she gets up at 5:00 for work.

We have a beautiful problem there: at those hours my baby girl is fully awake and active, so horror games or games that require a deep immersion are out of the question. Try creating a horrific mood with my little Monica running around babbling and grabbing everything.

We can play CoC on Tuesdays because the game starts after 20:00, and the baby is usually asleep at the time, but nights are a no-no for Rebeca so we needed something more beer-and-pretzels. And one of my playrs told me: "Hey, you have been itching to run something fantasy for a long time. Why not? Maybe some D&D."

He's a 3.X player and I will be fucked if I start running 3.x anytime soon. But Classic D&D is easy and fun. So there.

This Saturday I will be running my players through a mishmash of B1 and B2, and seeing if my baby will let us play a little bit

Any suggestions, ideas, pieces of advice? I haven't run Classic D&D in a good while, and my players are not big into sandboxes, they like to have some sort of overarching, albeit loose, plot going on.

Quote from: Imperator;717051Any suggestions, ideas, pieces of advice? I haven't run Classic D&D in a good while, and my players are not big into sandboxes, they like to have some sort of overarching, albeit loose, plot going on.

It is a common misconception that sandbox play and freedom of player choice prohibit players from getting mixed up in plotted events.

While one can run a purely location based sandbox without any plotted elements, it is less interesting IMHO than running a world in motion. A setting without groups and individuals that have goals and make plans to achieve them is kind of flat and 2 dimesional. People (and monsters) want things, and will do all kinds of interesting stuff to get them.

If you don't already own a copy, Frandor's Keep for latest Hackmaster edition is a terrific example of plotted and connected events in a sandbox setting. There are events in motion and people with agendas carrying out their schemes when the players arrive on the scene. There is quite a bit the players can get mixed up besides just going to adventure sites, exploring/fighting, and getting loot.

You mentioned integrating B2 into the campaign. There is quite a bit of potential to weave plots into the material presented. The relationships of the various tribes, connections to individuals in the keep, etc. There is also room to add quests in the caves and surrounding area. Perhaps the various tribes are not at war with each other, but instead are being unified by an unknown force?

So long as you avoid baking in what the players will do to your plots, you can includes a lot of them while maintaining the sandbox freedom.

Good luck with the game!  I understand the need for a low time impact game for both DM and players.  I am trying to chisel out some time for a regular game again in the new year and it is a challenge.

One suggestion that I can make for an OD&D/BD&D adventure that has a lot of handles for players to grab onto is B4 The Lost City.  It has a special place in my heart because it is a riff on a great RE Howard Conan story, but the gist of it is it is a built in excuse for the players to be working together (they were all members of a caravan crossing a desert and are now lost after a sandstorm), has an immediate challenge (explore the upper parts of an ancient ruin looking for food and water), and has a huge amount of stuff going on in the background that the players can latch on to it they like (a decaying drug-addled society, competing power groups, and an evil "god" who holds an entire underground city in thrall).  It also has a nice pulp feel that I appreciate, part of its Howard inspiration I think.

There is potentially an entire campaign there if the players decide to get involved.  The upper layers are quite detailed, but the lower layers of the ruin and the underground city are more of a sketch for the DM to develop on their own.  And if that doesn't appeal to the players then they find what they need and you can cut to the next adventure after they journeyed out of the desert.

I used this to great effect in a game many years ago, and I am sorely tempted to try it again.  In any case, for a time sensitive situation I agree that using a quality module that has enough connections to a wider situation that the players can get involved in as they wish is the way to go.  It focuses the action immediately for the players, and frankly minimizes the work for the DM until further down the road when the players themselves choose which handles for further adventure to grab.

-TGA

Quote from: Exploderwizard;717060It is a common misconception that sandbox play and freedom of player choice prohibit players from getting mixed up in plotted events.

Oh, I explained myself poorly.

My players love that they have absolute freedom to do whatever they want, and they love that there are no sacred NPCs, no events that will happen no matter what and all that.

They simply like to have clear goals. For example, they love Masks of Nyarlathotep because you have a clear main plot but you can pursue that plot however you like, and there are also many unrelated adventures you may have if you want to.

They like something like TES IV: Oblivion, so to speak. A "main quest" they can follow whene they feel like it (of course, they acknowledge that world events move on if they do not interfere) and plenty of sidequests to pick and choose. But they like to have a main goal in front of them.

What they are not interested in is to be dropped in front of a dungeon or megadungeon and be told, "here, you can explore this dungeon and the surrounding area for glory and profit."

QuoteIf you don't already own a copy, Frandor's Keep for latest Hackmaster edition is a terrific example of plotted and connected events in a sandbox setting. There are events in motion and people with agendas carrying out their schemes when the players arrive on the scene. There is quite a bit the players can get mixed up besides just going to adventure sites, exploring/fighting, and getting loot.

Thanks a lot for the suggestion, I will check it out

QuoteYou mentioned integrating B2 into the campaign. There is quite a bit of potential to weave plots into the material presented. The relationships of the various tribes, connections to individuals in the keep, etc. There is also room to add quests in the caves and surrounding area. Perhaps the various tribes are not at war with each other, but instead are being unified by an unknown force?

Yeah, I was thinking about something like that. Maybe the Chaos priests are trying to get everyone on the same target.

But I am specially interested in making the Castellan of the Keeper evil. I mean, the biggest loot is in the Keep. By large. A group of adventurers who managed to raid the Keep would be filthy rich.

I think that I will ask every player for a reason to be interested either in the Caverns of Chaos or in the story of Rogahn and Zeligar (the guys who constructed Quasqueton in B1). I have decided to put B1 in the region near of the Caves of Chaos. In both dungeons the PCs may find clues that seem to imply that the Chaos worshippers have an ally inside the Keep. Let's see what they do with it.

Oh, and as for general advice for running OD&D I would just say play it fast and loose like god intended!    It is a system whose virtue is that it can fade into the background so you can focus on other things.  Many things can be quickly determined by the DM to keep things moving.  To me the action is the juice.

And as Raymond Chandler said, when in doubt have a man with a gun enter the room...or an orc.

-TGA

As Exploderwizard noted, don't worry - a sandbox doesn't meant there can't be plots, or even overarching themes, or said plots forming into some kind of a story. Just think of an overarching plot/theme, and fill out some factions that'd responsible for it. Basically, if you want for a story of Struggle Between Evil and Good, just put in McMordor and Narniaesque along the usual cadre of NPCs, if you catch my drift. I'll edit this in a bit to talk specifics from my experience.

Good luck, Imperator!  

Roll the dice and have fun.

Quote from: Drohem;717068Roll the dice and have fun.

That is damn good advice!


-TGA

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;717063Good luck with the game!  I understand the need for a low time impact game for both DM and players.  I am trying to chisel out some time for a regular game again in the new year and it is a challenge.

Well, it's mostly a question of having a constant chaos factor marauding around the table, demanding attention, getting herself into trouble and trying to eat the dice

QuoteOne suggestion that I can make for an OD&D/BD&D adventure that has a lot of handles for players to grab onto is B4 The Lost City.  It has a special place in my heart because it is a riff on a great RE Howard Conan story, but the gist of it is it is a built in excuse for the players to be working together (they were all members of a caravan crossing a desert and are now lost after a sandstorm), has an immediate challenge (explore the upper parts of an ancient ruin looking for food and water), and has a huge amount of stuff going on in the background that the players can latch on to it they like (a decaying drug-addled society, competing power groups, and an evil "god" who holds an entire underground city in thrall).  It also has a nice pulp feel that I appreciate, part of its Howard inspiration I think.

Cool. I don't think I will be able to read it before Saturday, but I think I bought the PDF and it should be around here, so I will check it out as soon as I have the time.

To be honest, I chose S&W WB and B1+B2 because I wanted to treat my players (who are all 3.x players) to a taste of the oldest-school gaming I could get. They loved Traveller to pieces, so I expect them to enjoy this.

QuoteThere is potentially an entire campaign there if the players decide to get involved.  The upper layers are quite detailed, but the lower layers of the ruin and the underground city are more of a sketch for the DM to develop on their own.  And if that doesn't appeal to the players then they find what they need and you can cut to the next adventure after they journeyed out of the desert.

I used this to great effect in a game many years ago, and I am sorely tempted to try it again.  In any case, for a time sensitive situation I agree that using a quality module that has enough connections to a wider situation that the players can get involved in as they wish is the way to go.  It focuses the action immediately for the players, and frankly minimizes the work for the DM until further down the road when the players themselves choose which handles for further adventure to grab.

Yeah, that's the key: we want to try and see if the hours and having the baby awake and around is something we can manage, and if that is the case, I will flesh the campaign out further. If it works well, and I have high hopes, then it can be the start of a great campaign and I would look into incorporating more classic modules. I loved B10, and remember reading B3 (the original) and having a good time.

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;717065Oh, and as for general advice for running OD&D I would just say play it fast and loose like god intended!    It is a system whose virtue is that it can fade into the background so you can focus on other things.  Many things can be quickly determined by the DM to keep things moving.  To me the action is the juice.

And as Raymond Chandler said, when in doubt have a man with a gun enter the room...or an orc.

-TGA

Oh, as it happens with CoC, I love how easy is to make a PC, or to run stuff, for sure My concerns were more about setting an initial situation that would get my player's interest from the start.

Quote from: Rincewind1;717066As Exploderwizard noted, don't worry - a sandbox doesn't meant there can't be plots, or even overarching themes, or said plots forming into some kind of a story. Just think of an overarching plot/theme, and fill out some factions that'd responsible for it. Basically, if you want for a story of Struggle Between Evil and Good, just put in McMordor and Narniaesque along the usual cadre of NPCs, if you catch my drift. I'll edit this in a bit to talk specifics from my experience.

Actually, I just got a map from the TES IV: Oblivion box and decided that the Keep is north of Cyrodiil, in the frontier with Skyrim. I have no shame

I was thinking about this idea: PCs are all appointed heirs of a travelling, adventurous man. When he dies, the will tells them that they will inherit a ridiculously huge amount of wealth if they manage to recover certain items of sentimental value. The PCs go on about that, and when they assemble the items and bring them to the tomb of the guy, they activate a spell and the guy becomes a lich or some shit like that, who thanks them and then escapes to start his malefic plans of fucking shit up.

The first artifact in the list could be in the Caverns of Chaos. Maybe Rogahn and Zelligar were comrades of the guy and you can learn mre about him if you visit Quasqueton. Something like that. I run a similar idea in WHFRP a long time ago and it was priceless

Quote from: Drohem;717068Good luck, Imperator!  

Roll the dice and have fun.

Thanks mate!

Quote from: Imperator;717064Oh, I explained myself poorly.

My players love that they have absolute freedom to do whatever they want, and they love that there are no sacred NPCs, no events that will happen no matter what and all that.

They simply like to have clear goals. For example, they love Masks of Nyarlathotep because you have a clear main plot but you can pursue that plot however you like, and there are also many unrelated adventures you may have if you want to.

There is no reason why you wouldn't be able to craft a sandbox starting from B1 and B2 that actually functions as a sandbox, in that the players explore the world however they see fit and care/ignore things happening around however they want, and yet have clear objectives they can grab and decide to take as their own, or decide by themselves on their own objectives whenever that suits them.

You can actually take Masks of Nyarlathotep as a model here. The Caves of Chaos and the Dungeon of the Unknown are just a small pieces of a bigger puzzle of evil unfolding. You have humanoids coming into the Borderlands, and evil waking under the earth for some reason. On this, you could add B4 for some more hints and cultish stuff going on in the sandbox, including those clues which might lead to the core issue that is making evil stir at the frontier. This could be an excellent plug for the Giants, having the Steading of the Hill Giant Chief up north beyond the Borderlands. The PCs come to learn that the humanoids have been pushed out of their home up north by the presence of the Giants, and that there is more to the threat than actually meets the eye. The Evil Castellan of the Keep doesn't care, but after the PCs take him out (if they do) the replacement, who would be a wimp but a smart individual, would actually care and ask the PCs to explore up north and find out what is going on. One of the PCs could even become Castellan of the Keep under this scenario.

I'm sure you get the picture from there. So you have an overarching conspiracy/thing going on in the sandbox, and the PCs can care, or not care, and/or approach the problem however they see fit. You could have classic game play going for the Steading, then on to G and D series, you could have conventional sieges laid by the Castellan, you could have the PCs not care at all and the Giants as a result start invading the Borderlands as the natural next step of their expansion, and so on, so forth.

OH and as for general advice to run OD&D. When in doubt, assign a probability on d6 or some other die type, and ask the player concerned to roll, or yourself, depending on the situation. Use your common sense, think logically, role play the world, and everything should unfold organically from there.

Have fun.

Option 2: instead of the G/D/Q series, plug the Temple of Elemental Evil up north in the woods.

Option 3: make up your own overarching threat of uber Evil.

Option 4: buy Gygax Magazine Issue 3, and plug the Marmoreal Tomb of Garn Pat'uul in the Borderlands. Would actually work great with the Giants series for reasons that might become clear later. Plug Caer Caeladon (Castel Celadon, Nester's Folly, aka The Hobby Shop Dungeon) somewhere north and west, on the edge of a big lake, and have the problem originate from there. The players will be quite busy for the next year, and if the campaign is a success, you'll get to the dungeon proper a year from now.

Several options may be selected simultaneously, of course.

I've been trying to infuse old school style in my games and I and my players are having a lot of fun with it. Good luck to you, and I hope your child cooperates.

Quote from: Imperator;717073Actually, I just got a map from the TES IV: Oblivion box and decided that the Keep is north of Cyrodiil, in the frontier with Skyrim. I have no shame

I was thinking about this idea: PCs are all appointed heirs of a travelling, adventurous man. When he dies, the will tells them that they will inherit a ridiculously huge amount of wealth if they manage to recover certain items of sentimental value. The PCs go on about that, and when they assemble the items and bring them to the tomb of the guy, they activate a spell and the guy becomes a lich or some shit like that, who thanks them and then escapes to start his malefic plans of fucking shit up.

The first artifact in the list could be in the Caverns of Chaos. Maybe Rogahn and Zelligar were comrades of the guy and you can learn mre about him if you visit Quasqueton. Something like that. I run a similar idea in WHFRP a long time ago and it was priceless

Sounds good, though I'd start the man as terminally ill (I assume that you already planned for the sudden reveal of Goody Uncle into Devious Schemer here , since I can sense otherwise players might prefer to just go about faking the items rather than go into the dungeons . Plus it'd give them perhaps a chance to discover the truth about him, as well as put some minions to his disposal, so that if the PCs discover the truth, his whole plans don't go into the toilet.

I was supposed to edit the previous one, but I'll go on the rant here. The key idea however, is to remember to just give players freedom to pursue options within the plot, rather than try to force certain options so that the story falls together - but I'm sure you know that.

From my own memories of "plotted" D&D campaign:

For the D&D campaign, it was supposed to be New Testament through the eyes of Jesus that fought orcs (since while changing water into wine is cool, it's not really D&D campaign material), alongside a good spicing of Good versus Evil, Gods fighting themselves, ancient tragedies, etc. etc (I was straight after finishing Malazan, so it shaped the campaign a fair deal as well, heh).

So I've created a world where such a story could occur, and circumstances where it would, without having to force players. Since you already have an idea for the world, no need for me to blabber about it (it was ancient times through lenses of REH and some high fantasy). The rough concept of campaign I had was like this:

- All gods other than God of Light are actually fallen/rogue angels, who are trying to imprison the true god by exterminating belief in him. At the same time, the leader of original rebellion, Asmodeus, tries to manipulate the gods (his former underlings in rebellion) to free him - he was chained underneath ruins of Troy, and only someone who'd carry a Hammer of the Creator could release him from the chains. The most important piece here is that the Roman gods'd actively use their clerics and priests to pursue the Chosen One, as he was the most dangerous to them.

-Roll a dice to determine which PC is the Chosen One. If he dies, advance game 20 years into the future, where the remaining alive members of the party arrive to save the new incarnation from a Roman attack.

- As the party escapes prison from the introductory adventure, the priest in the village gives them the clue to the first "plot dungeon" in Stygia(Egypt), where they'd discover the reason for Roman attack.

- In the pyramid/plot dungeon, the players discover a prophecy - they'd be vague enough (except two, whichd point them to two of other plot dungeons, where the Hammer of Creator was located and where the banner of Kings of Israel was) that it'd not be hard for the events to happen out of players' accord, and making them think that they just fulfilled a part of the prophecy (after all, a guy leading an army against an army of "shadowy, evil - looking creatures" isn't a very forceful scenario to happen in D&D endgame, especially since the PCs were already getting into the spirit of freedom fighters).

- The party, having levelled up a little, returns to Palestine to pursue the clues from the prophecy, and begin the fight against the Romans.

- In Palestine they discover various factions and cults that they could ally themselves to, or those that were allied to Romans, or the odd wildcards who'd be parts of the hidden picture of Asmodeus. Meanwhile, a civil war also breaks out in a neighbour kingdom - both as an event that'd be a part of the living world, but also to give the players a potential opening into bigger politics, as Romans enter into the war, or just to allow them to engage in some good old mercenary play if they'd like to.

- The party starts to take the fight against the Romans. Which'll be of course much easier, if they bothered to ally with some of the factions, as well as take care of the other 2 plot dungeons. The Hammer of the Creator was a very powerful weapon. Getting it however'd require a very tiresome walk through the desert, combined with a tough dungeon (the last temptation), while the banner was located in Temple of Lord of Light, which was in the middle of Jerusalem - except the Romans didn't just raze the temple, but opened a portal to Hell to ensure that nobody can enter Jerusalem again (though it happened anyway, but on that in a bit).

- War with Romans is on. At some point, the group discovers (we sadly didn't get that far, so I did not yet think that much how, though it's also possible they'd discover it much earlier) that the key to power of Roman necromancers, main ace of the army, is actually Asmodeus, Lord of the Devils. They'd also learn that he was the manipulative force that was forcing the Romans, through their gods, into the pointless and bloody war to eradicate followers of Lord of Light

- Epic confrontation in the dungeon where Asmodeus is buried, where, if the group defeats him, they learn that by killing him they have broken a link in chain of the world, and that someone with divine blood must take his place, or the world is doomed. Cue the final sacrifice for humanity, epilogue.

Well, that was the theory and just the "main storyline". In practice, by session 5, the Chosen one has already taken to whores and suffered first bout of depression as party's Thief died trying to get the gemstone from pyramid  that was crashing onto them after reading of the prophecy, the group was knees deep into dealings with Alexandrian mob, and they were about to embark on an expedition to release an ancient dragon - pharaoh turned god turned corpse. None the less, despite all  that, they were keen on following the main plot, since if anything, there was an obvious promise of power there .

Fleshing out the various factions was key I'd say, and great fun as well - I was both putting out pieces needed for the world to turn, as well as pieces for the plot to happen. So Palestine had four main factions - a gay blue dragon warlord from the line of dragon kings of Palestine that lived in ruins of Jerusalem, who wanted to marry his sister to the Chosen One so that his line'd continue and regain the throne, the Pharisees - expy and smaller rebel groups that were too busy fighting the collaborators to actually fight the Romans, and a mysterious Druidic cult that came from the North, actually a horrible sect of demons that turned people into unholy fusions of plants and flesh (I took the idea from Red Tree cult from Deadly Premonition). So basically, all the roles needed to get the main plot, as well as the overarching theme of the campaign, were in place - and I'd needn't rely on forcing the players to follow the plot, as their initial motivation, combined with conflict of interests between the factions, would handle that.

At the same time, as I said, I planned a few "traps" to get that tragedy part going on - the players could discover a clue to find a Stormbringeresque (except minus ending the world part, more like the original from The Broken Sword) sword that'd doom the wearer. I've also thrown in some pieces to reward the concepts that were forming in play - so while I've originally not planned for paladins, I've given a chance for the PC that was acting the most like the paladin, to turn into one, when the group discovered the Banner of Last King (he took the chance and started the order, or at least we tried - the group sadly fell apart due to RL reasons soon after that). The players also met the leader of House Brutus, who was following his own sad prophecy - that if Asmodeus is defeated, the Roman Republic will fall and be exchanged by a feudal empire, that'd ultimately result in the Dark Ages.

Basically, what I'm getting is, that just prepare the stage and see how the events play out.

Make some pointers for your "main plot", the one you described. Then also come up with the "filler" stuff - both the parts of the living world, and parts that'd be tied to the main quest, but not directly part of it. Also, use broad strokes when preparing the main plot, and always plan for backup if players just don't bite entirely - for example, don't force the players to fight the lich, but rather prepare the situation in such a way (such as him going on a rampage in their home kingdom after he ransacked one of the planes and they just let him) that it'd be simply in logical interest for the PCs to take action against him.

In your case, since you already have the main plot, the rest remains to be filled in. I sadly don't remember TES world that well (or at all, Morrowind was the only one I played). But in doubt, a civil war is always a good start. I'd also prepare some "plotted out" sidequests - for example, a rumour of a set of legendary thieves' gloves (that'd actually be perhaps cursed to slowly change it's wearer into a shadow), players accidentally rescuing the only daughter of a powerful lord who falls in love with party's Warrior, etc. etc. - just, again, plan those events in broad strokes, so if they don't happen, tough luck, you know what cool stuff was to happen, the players loose out .