Seriously no love for 2E?

Marleycat · March 30, 2012, 02:59:35 AM

How did I miss this thread? Yeah, I'm going to get Myth &Magic whenever the budget allows, despite Benoist.

Teazia · March 30, 2012, 05:19:36 AM

Quote from: Benoist;5247752E sux.

:cheerleader:

In the famous words of the most famous French Canadian export Caillou:

Mommmy, mommmmy, I just wet myself...

RPGPundit · March 31, 2012, 01:21:33 PM

2e did suck, though.

RPGPundit

noisms · March 31, 2012, 05:14:25 PM

The Good

Better organised rules that were basically the same as AD&D.
Good settings (everybody says this - personally I think a lot of them were overrated, but I liked Al Qadim, Spelljammer and Planescape).
Better production values (you can't deny that Tony Diterlizzi in particular did some stunning work, and even Larry Elmore did some very nice pictures scattered around various supplements).
Less of the jarring pseudo-Christian stuff (devils, demons) that never made any sense. (I know some AD&D grognards like to dress themselves up as being all "metal" because they prefer to have devils and demons in their game. Mate, you're a fat guy pretending to be an elf.)
Great source books, like the ones on castles, vikings, etc.

The Bad

Nowhere near enough random tables. This has been a problem since 2nd edition that has only got worse, but DMs need lots of random tables and need to be told how to make their own - this should primarily be what any DMG consists of.
Too much emphasis on narrative.
No real advice on how to create the basics: dungeon maps, hex maps, your own monsters.
The kits - how to break your game in 1 easy step.

The Ugly

Those blue pictures in the first imprint.
Those godawful covers in the second imprint.

Bedrockbrendan · March 31, 2012, 05:18:54 PM

Quote from: noisms;525083The
The kits - how to break your game in 1 easy step.

I am sure some were broken (the only brown book i still have is the Ninja) but my memory is most of these gave you things like minor circumstantial proficiency bonuses. They certainly were not anywhere near the level of broken you find in 3e with some of the prestige classes.

noisms · March 31, 2012, 05:21:16 PM

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;525085I am sure some were broken (the only brown book i still have is the Ninja) but my memory is most of these gave you things like minor circumstantial proficiency bonuses. They certainly were not anywhere near the level of broken you find in 3e with some of the prestige classes.

No, the rules for the kits were mostly fine, but they broke the entire game because they started everyone off along the dark path of character optimization down which madness lay and from which D&D has never really recovered.

jibbajibba · March 31, 2012, 08:03:26 PM

Quote from: noisms;525086No, the rules for the kits were mostly fine, but they broke the entire game because they started everyone off along the dark path of character optimization down which madness lay and from which D&D has never really recovered.

Can't agree with that Kits were in no way about optimisation. They were about roleplay.
Optimisation comes when you add the 3e multiclassing and ability to increase stats and skill trees and all that malarky

misterguignol · March 31, 2012, 08:04:52 PM

Quote from: jibbajibba;525113Can't agree with that Kits were in no way about optimisation. They were about roleplay.
Optimisation comes when you add the 3e multiclassing and ability to increase stats and skill trees and all that malarky

So, you've never seen the Complete Book of Elves, huh?

Machinegun Blue · March 31, 2012, 08:11:17 PM

Quote from: misterguignol;525115So, you've never seen the Complete Book of Elves, huh?

Vastly overstated. Though, I was lucky never to see anything from it used in any game I was a part of.

ggroy · March 31, 2012, 08:16:25 PM

Quote from: misterguignol;525115So, you've never seen the Complete Book of Elves, huh?

What was problematic about it? (I've never read it).

misterguignol · March 31, 2012, 08:19:30 PM

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;525117Vastly overstated. Though, I was lucky never to see anything from it used in any game I was a part of.

Agreed, but many of the kits in that book were just plain better than the kits in other books. Even if they weren't game-breaking it wasn't unusual to see power gamers dipping into it.

Quote from: ggroy;525119What was problematic about it? (I've never read it).

There were a couple kits that seemed to be the obvious choice for certain classes because they were just so much better than the other options from other kits. Again, not game-breaking stuff in most cases, but definitely the domain of the optimizer.

Bedrockbrendan · March 31, 2012, 08:42:37 PM

Kits were pretty hard to abuse as I remember. There may have been a few here or there that were problematic, but compared to the stuff going on in 3e, they were nothing.

misterguignol · March 31, 2012, 08:45:16 PM

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;525144Kits were pretty hard to abuse as I remember. There may have been a few here or there that were problematic, but compared to the stuff going on in 3e, they were nothing.

It's true. It's also true that both 2e and 3e were a lot easier to manage by just going core-only. I blame 1e Unearthed Arcana for introducing splat-creep/power-creep.

jibbajibba · March 31, 2012, 08:46:50 PM

Quote from: misterguignol;525115So, you've never seen the Complete Book of Elves, huh?

Actually I stopped getting the Kits afte that daft 3 armed tree thing in the complete ranger

I can totally see how Kits would progress in the hands of designers looking to add mechanical benefit.
To me that moves away from what Kits were about in the first place.

misterguignol · March 31, 2012, 08:50:39 PM

Quote from: jibbajibba;525150Actually I stopped getting the Kits afte that daft 3 armed tree thing in the complete ranger

I can totally see how Kits would progress in the hands of designers looking to add mechanical benefit.
To me that moves away from what Kits were about in the first place.

It's the same story as prestige classes in 3e, sadly. (Maybe on a lesser scale though, as others have pointed out.)