Allips are another good choice. The babble ability in particular can be very powerful when there are large groups of PCs to be affected.

IMHO, wraiths, spectres and shadows are under-rated at their current CRs and need to be used very carefully. Shadows and spectres should be a level higher than they are, while wraiths should be two. If you want to use wraiths without rejigging, consider making their ability damage be Dex-based instead of Con (perhaps the supernatural chill paralyses and stiffens).

For a ghost-like feel you can also combine either the skeleton and swarm or zombie and swarm templates. Spider, bat and rat are probably your best choices for low level characters. The weaknesses of the swarm and undead templates are similar without stacking, and the abilities mesh well together. I treat exoskeletons as skeletons for the purposes of eligibility for the skeletal template, btw, and I would recommend you do as well.

Finally, I would recommend giving the undead creatures you create (or all undead creatures) the evil subtype. This is an oversight in 3.x that drives me nuts. Giving them the evil subtype allows spells like protection from evil and magic circle to protect PCs from the undead, and good divine casters can affect them with certain abilities and spells as a result. Normally only evil extraplanar entities like devils have it, but IMHO undead, as evil entities animated by extraplanar energy should have it as well. It grants only the power to overcome DR -/evil (something PCs are extremely unlikely to possess), so it's not mechanically complex to administer, but it opens up PC options.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;471196Allips are another good choice. The babble ability in particular can be very powerful when there are large groups of PCs to be affected.

Yeah I'm definitely thinking of that and/or an Allip type swarm effect.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;471196IMHO, wraiths, spectres and shadows are under-rated at their current CRs and need to be used very carefully. Shadows and spectres should be a level higher than they are, while wraiths should be two. If you want to use wraiths without rejigging, consider making their ability damage be Dex-based instead of Con (perhaps the supernatural chill paralyses and stiffens).

Well there ARE alternate ways of doing that yes. But I was thinking of staying away from wraiths and specters. At least at the current/start of the game. Maybe down the road... Shadows might work since I think I might have them more Negative energy based than "living shadows".

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;471196For a ghost-like feel you can also combine either the skeleton and swarm or zombie and swarm templates. Spider, bat and rat are probably your best choices for low level characters. The weaknesses of the swarm and undead templates are similar without stacking, and the abilities mesh well together. I treat exoskeletons as skeletons for the purposes of eligibility for the skeletal template, btw, and I would recommend you do as well.

Well I hadn't thought of that...but I might have a spectrally possessed swarms of rats perhaps. Spiders eh...

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;471196Finally, I would recommend giving the undead creatures you create (or all undead creatures) the evil subtype. This is an oversight in 3.x that drives me nuts. Giving them the evil subtype allows spells like protection from evil and magic circle to protect PCs from the undead, and good divine casters can affect them with certain abilities and spells as a result. Normally only evil extraplanar entities like devils have it, but IMHO undead, as evil entities animated by extraplanar energy should have it as well. It grants only the power to overcome DR -/evil (something PCs are extremely unlikely to possess), so it's not mechanically complex to administer, but it opens up PC options.

I'm not sure about mixing that in there. That being said I'll keep it under consideration for later.

The problem with wraiths and shadows is that they can kill most PCs of equivalent level in two to three hits, and even many PCs well above their CR will go down easily. Wraiths at least allow a saving throw, but shadows just deal the damage automatically. As incorporeal creatures they ignore all non-magical armour.

Use with caution. Shadows are TPK machines.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;471504The problem with wraiths and shadows is that they can kill most PCs of equivalent level in two to three hits, and even many PCs well above their CR will go down easily. Wraiths at least allow a saving throw, but shadows just deal the damage automatically. As incorporeal creatures they ignore all non-magical armour.

Use with caution. Shadows are TPK machines.

Its true. I used a couple in a dungeon where the party was planning on fighting a CR 13 dragon they could keep from flying. The shadows derailed the party for close to an hour and knocked out 4 of 6 characters + companions.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;471504The problem with wraiths and shadows is that they can kill most PCs of equivalent level in two to three hits, and even many PCs well above their CR will go down easily. Wraiths at least allow a saving throw, but shadows just deal the damage automatically. As incorporeal creatures they ignore all non-magical armour.

Well I was thinking of shadows that don't deal STR or CON damage. More like Wisdom or Int damage. Maybe even CHA.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;471504Use with caution. Shadows are TPK machines.

Well it was going to be more of shadow swarm-esque type of deal.

Quote from: Cranewings;471528Its true. I used a couple in a dungeon where the party was planning on fighting a CR 13 dragon they could keep from flying. The shadows derailed the party for close to an hour and knocked out 4 of 6 characters + companions.

I'll keep that in mind.

Cha damage might work. The shadow really only needs a minor change, which is to give PCs who would be affected by the Str damage a DC 13 Fortitude save against it.

Eh.. I just dunno about handing out saves. I mean acid orb is a 0 level spell...and it's got no save.