I've seen a few threads in various fora where folks discuss the realities of space travel. Hyperspace being more for space fantasy or opera type games, and automatic cryogenic storage type systems, or similar, for more hard core sci-fi. I'm more of an opera/fantasy fan so I like having "real time" hyper travel systems in my games just because. One of my projects has both hyperspace travel, with varying speeds/travel times depending upon the level of tech your ship has, and an out there idea that I cooked up that uses high brow mathematics and quantum physics type brain power needed to make it work properly (in game, not that the players or myself need big brains!).
Basically, you spend a few hours calculating, triangulating, and recalculating before pushing the go button, and your ship essentially teleports to the other location. The probability of porting into a solid object is high if you don't spend the necessary time doing the calculations, but if the journey has been taken more than once, you can shorten the time needed by an hour or so. Anywho, this tech is only available for a few of the big galactic governments or criminal organizations, primarily the big bads, and it is only available for the big capital class vessels, so the PCs won't be tangling with it very much at all, but it will be an option if a GM wants to put something like this into the players hands.
My question is, is this too far out as a space travel alternative?
Bonus question, if you don't like space opera/fantasy, why not you heathens? :D
Sounds like space fold technology. Like in Macross or Dune.
I've often wondered why there's usually only one method of FTL in most settings. I think it's be neat if different races/factions had different methods of FTL. Like a race with Stargates, another with Fold tech, and a third uses Hyperdrive. Give each method benefits and drawbacks to balance them out.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129923Sounds like space fold technology. Like in Macross or Dune.
I've often wondered why there's usually only one method of FTL in most settings. I think it's be neat if different races/factions had different methods of FTL. Like a race with Stargates, another with Fold tech, and a third uses Hyperdrive. Give each method benefits and drawbacks to balance them out.
That's pretty close to what I have envisioned. Hadn't considered the star/wormhole gate aspect though. I may have to incorporate that in as well!
Quote from: Jamfke;1129920Basically, you spend a few hours calculating, triangulating, and recalculating before pushing the go button, and your ship essentially teleports to the other location. The probability of porting into a solid object is high if you don't spend the necessary time doing the calculations, but if the journey has been taken more than once, you can shorten the time needed by an hour or so.
Suggestion: if you're trying to come up with an "explanation" in order to make your world building more, let's say, "plausible" or "realistic", than make sure it doesn't have anything that obviously sounds implausible by going against facts we know to be true. Faster-than-light travel, teleportation... whatever goes. It might not exist in real life, but it's sci-fi, so the reader or player will be willing to buy it. However, when your explanation includes the statement that "the probability of porting into a solid object is high if you don't spend the necessary time doing the calculations", that's much harder to sell, since it goes against established facts that we do know.
Going by this particular estimate (https://science.howstuffworks.com/dictionary/astronomy-terms/question221.htm), only 0.0000000000000000000042% of the universe's total volume is occupied by matter. But even if someone doesn't know that specifically, any casual sci-fi fan will be aware that space is, in fact, vastly and mind-boggingly empty with only tiny collections of matter located very, very far from each other. So, in fact, the chances teleporting into a solid object should be very, VERY low.
So I think you'd sell the idea more readily if you just said "teleporting is dangerous if you don't make precise calculations" and leave it at that. It's better to let the audience fill in the gaps with their imagination than to offer a scientific-sounding explanation that's clearly wrong on a basic level.
Quote from: Jamfke;1129920My question is, is this too far out as a space travel alternative?
Too far out? How could an excuse to say "Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?" be too far out?
Granted, you're talking about instantaneous teleportation rather than superluminal flight through hyperspace, but, still, it sounds like pretty mainstream FTL trappings to me.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129923I've often wondered why there's usually only one method of FTL in most settings. I think it's be neat if different races/factions had different methods of FTL. Like a race with Stargates, another with Fold tech, and a third uses Hyperdrive. Give each method benefits and drawbacks to balance them out.
That's one of the things I really liked about the (computer) conquer-the-galaxy game
Sword of the Stars. They had six races/factions (I believe seven with all expansions) and each one had its own distinct method of FTL travel, with different tradeoffs for speed, flexibility, etc.
Mongoose Traveller 1st edition had a page with three or four alternate FTL methods (aside from the Traveller default of one-week jump drives), but the assumption seemed to be that you'd just pick one for your game, not use all of them in the same setting.
Quote from: Premier;1129935Suggestion: if you're trying to come up with an "explanation" in order to make your world building more, let's say, "plausible" or "realistic", than make sure it doesn't have anything that obviously sounds implausible by going against facts we know to be true. Faster-than-light travel, teleportation... whatever goes. It might not exist in real life, but it's sci-fi, so the reader or player will be willing to buy it. However, when your explanation includes the statement that "the probability of porting into a solid object is high if you don't spend the necessary time doing the calculations", that's much harder to sell, since it goes against established facts that we do know.
Going by this particular estimate (https://science.howstuffworks.com/dictionary/astronomy-terms/question221.htm), only 0.0000000000000000000042% of the universe's total volume is occupied by matter. But even if someone doesn't know that specifically, any casual sci-fi fan will be aware that space is, in fact, vastly and mind-boggingly empty with only tiny collections of matter located very, very far from each other. So, in fact, the chances teleporting into a solid object should be very, VERY low.
Even so, I don't have any issue with the OP's description because you're not going to be teleporting to an arbitrary random point anywhere in the universe. If you're going someplace worth making the trip, then you probably want to arrive somewhere in the general vicinity of a substantial quantity of matter. As long as the error in your arrival point isn't more than a few thousand km, then there's a non-negligible chance of arriving at a location which intersects the substantial quantity of matter you had intended to visit.
However, that said, this intersects with the recent "TPK for one character's mistake" thread. After one or two incidents of ships misjumping into planets and causing massive civilian casualties, FTL will very quickly be either banned or restricted to only arrivals far enough out in space to ensure that you don't arrive in the space occupied by anything of consequence, purely for the sake of keeping planetary populations safe, even if interstellar travelers are willing to accept that risk for themselves.
Quote from: Premier;1129935Going by this particular estimate (https://science.howstuffworks.com/dictionary/astronomy-terms/question221.htm), only 0.0000000000000000000042% of the universe's total volume is occupied by matter. But even if someone doesn't know that specifically, any casual sci-fi fan will be aware that space is, in fact, vastly and mind-boggingly empty with only tiny collections of matter located very, very far from each other. So, in fact, the chances teleporting into a solid object should be very, VERY low.
But that sample set is over the entirety of space. Presumably the crew is jumping towards something, not just empty space or a randomly chosen point. In that case, the target jump zone is more occupied than the universal average and contains moving objects (planets and moons in orbit), for example. Maybe some jump targets are more challenging than others?
Quote from: Jamfke;1129920Anywho, this tech is only available for a few of the big galactic governments or criminal organizations, primarily the big bads, and it is only available for the big capital class vessels, so the PCs won't be tangling with it very much at all, but it will be an option if a GM wants to put something like this into the players hands.
That's a cool backstory ... in real life though, my experience is that giving the players this tech at some point in their career is going to be pretty much standard GM-practice. If you put it in the game, then sooner or later no campaign will be complete without the players getting to use it. Not that I think this is a bad thing by any means.
Quote from: Jamfke;1129920Bonus question, if you don't like space opera/fantasy, why not you heathens? :D
Right?
Star Frontiers has a bit of both. Jumps occur nearly instantly. But getting out to a safe jump point and doing the calculations takes days and getting up to and then down from the required jump speed takes about a day each. circumnavigating the known spacelanes round trip takes about 4 months. Not including 2 stops for refuelling and 4 stops for engine overhauls. Most trips are not THAT long. But for long hauls some passengers travel in cryostasis. Example: a trip from Theseus to Dramune is a bit over a month including a maintenance and possible refueling stop on a class 10 ship. So travelling cryo would be a tempting option for those not interested in spending so long shipboard.
Your idea is no more "far out" than any other method of FTL travel. They are all pure fantasy, but necessary to the space opera genre. Go for it!
Answer to bonus question: I love to read space opera. I have played in, and run space opera games, but they are certainly not my favorite rpg genre. I like sandbox gaming, and in a fantasy sandbox i can predict fairly well what I might need to prep for the next session. Players can only travel so far in one session. With FTL travel, and wildly different cultures and environments within easy reach, I really struggled to run a space opera sandbox. I'm playing in one now and the GM is barely holding it together for all the same reasons I found it a struggle.
Some sort of FTL is necessary for ANY sort of sci-fi, not just space opera, that wants to have space travel be more than a one way trip to a new world and for all intents and purposes a prop to get the PCs to the setting rather than a means of travel.
And keep in mind that some space opera actually dont have FTL and either keep things in system, or explore the problems of possibly decades or centuries of time skips and future shock.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129923I've often wondered why there's usually only one method of FTL in most settings.
There was an old boardgame called Web and Starship about two alien races. One had planetary gates where they could move massive amount of material from one planet to the next, but they could only build new gates by launching sub-light probes. The other aliens had FTL travel but their ships couldn't carry much cargo so if they ever tried to invade a planet, the gate-aliens would easily swarm them with troop. But, the FTL aliens could easily shoot down the gate-alien's sublight probes. It was an effective stalemate.
In the middle where the Earthling who could use both technologies but only in a limited manner. Each of the aliens had to make deals with the Earthlings to borrow their tech to defeat the other alien while the Earthlings tried to turn that into their own empire.
It was a good setup for creating conflict through incompatible technology.
Quote from: Jamfke;1129920I've seen a few threads in various fora where folks discuss the realities of space travel. Hyperspace being more for space fantasy or opera type games, and automatic cryogenic storage type systems, or similar, for more hard core sci-fi. I'm more of an opera/fantasy fan so I like having "real time" hyper travel systems in my games just because. One of my projects has both hyperspace travel, with varying speeds/travel times depending upon the level of tech your ship has, and an out there idea that I cooked up that uses high brow mathematics and quantum physics type brain power needed to make it work properly (in game, not that the players or myself need big brains!).
Basically, you spend a few hours calculating, triangulating, and recalculating before pushing the go button, and your ship essentially teleports to the other location. The probability of porting into a solid object is high if you don't spend the necessary time doing the calculations, but if the journey has been taken more than once, you can shorten the time needed by an hour or so. Anywho, this tech is only available for a few of the big galactic governments or criminal organizations, primarily the big bads, and it is only available for the big capital class vessels, so the PCs won't be tangling with it very much at all, but it will be an option if a GM wants to put something like this into the players hands.
My question is, is this too far out as a space travel alternative?
Bonus question, if you don't like space opera/fantasy, why not you heathens? :D
Ringworld had something like this, the novels I mean. FTL was done by moving thru hyperspace, you needed to calculate in order not to go thru a gravity well, a singularity or to exit near/in one. But I seem to remember even there trvel wasn't instantaneous. What do your ships use? Giant Blue Space Tardigrades?
FTL is pure handwavium, when I use it I don't make mechanics to try and dress it as science, the navigational computer does the calculations and shazam.
Theres a few others where there is multiple space travel methods being employed by different races. In for example Gateway you had the FTL ships, solar sails, and other means of travel.
Or in Yamato where the earth ship was riding a tachyon wave to accelerate in a series of jumps. And conventional space engines. (atomic drives I believe). Other races were using teleport/gate tech and one was even submerging and rising in and out of the Sea of Dirac.
Quote from: Omega;1130150Or in Yamato where the earth ship was riding a tachyon wave to accelerate in a series of jumps. And conventional space engines. (atomic drives I believe). Other races were using teleport/gate tech and one was even submerging and rising in and out of the Sea of Dirac.
Gross Conceptual Error.....
My Space Opera game Star Adventurer (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/308685/RPGPundit-Presents-100-Star-Adventurer)presumes some form of hyperspace travel for your ships, though in the space navigation and starship combat rules I make it easy to skip that if you don't want it.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1131156My Space Opera game Star Adventurer (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/308685/RPGPundit-Presents-100-Star-Adventurer)presumes some form of hyperspace travel for your ships, though in the space navigation and starship combat rules I make it easy to skip that if you don't want it.
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Had a few thoughts for the FTL drive as listed, and things that could affect it:
* Mass of drive needed - is the ship just a thin shell built around the drive, or is the FTL (i.e. Battletech where the FTL core for the civilian vessels takes up 95% of the ship's mass) a simple refit that can be added to anything (similar to ST:TOS where the Enterprise crew stole a Romulan cloaking device that was about the size of a person)
* Quality of drive - how close to the calculated arrival point the ship will arrive. Higher quality drive will arrive closer to the calculated point, but be more expensive. Merchant ships might be willing to accept a lower quality drive, and a longer trip, while military units might want tactical jump capability
* Quality of FTL computers - better computer can give you more precision in the jump, and/or perform the jump faster. Larger ships have an advantage here as the computer cost for its accuracy will be a fixed value, meaning larger ships get more benefit from it
* Accuracy of database - you are jumping to another star system, hope the star charts are up to date, and nobody messed up the data. It's be annoying if you got the planet and its L3 point swapped
* Sensitivity of drive - will external effects cause drive issues? Can groups deploy 'jammers' that prevent arrival or departure jumps from occurring within a certain radius of the jammer? Preventing arrival means an attacker can't just jump into planetary orbit and drop nuclear warheads, while preventing departure could be used by pirates or coast guard vessels to prevent a ship from leaving
* FTL Jump 'noise' - does the FTL drive cause any EM signature when it arrives or leaves? How big is the signature? Is the signature proportional to ship width/length/height or to ship volume? If a small signature, that means smaller ships can arrive much sneaker, meaning planets have to watch out for raiders popping in to steal stuff or drop off sabotage crews. If large, what prevents an attacker from using drones to perform EM attacks on defenders before attacking?
* Fuel consumption - how much go-juice does the ship need per jump? Is it like Traveller with massive fuel tanks, or are the fuel requirements smaller? Is the amount used based on ship mass, ship cross-section, distance, or? If based on cross-section, that gives larger ships an advantage since they have a larger volume for their cross-section than a smaller ship. It also encourages narrow designs to reduce fuel usage (but narrow designs can have structural issues if too long for their width)
* Physical limitations - can the drove work if there is a solid object between it and its destination? How much solid matter needs to be rersent? I.e. imagine a system getting ready to invade another, but the target system has a gas giant in the way. Will the gas giant prevent the jump drive from working, will it deflect the drive, or will the gas giant be ignored?
From there, you can have various cultural rules for usage of the FTL drive, so someone going into a new system might first go ~1 light-week away from the star, ad try to determine the system plane. After determining the system plane, the ship will pop in above or below the poles of the star, and deploy sensors to see if anyone is present. If they talk to someone, they use the local's rules about where to go. If nobody responds, they may go to the L1 point between the star and the selected planet, and proceed from there.
One idea might be making the FTL fuel consumption be based on ship cross-section, and proportional to distance. So merchant freighters are large cylinders, and smaller ships often hitch rides with them. Those merchant freighters travel a fixed schedule, allowing the GM to say there is no transport available for X amount of time, unless the PCs want to use their own ship. These merchant lines are not attacked by pirates, as the bounties paid if anyone attacks a Merchant ship are quite high. But ships leaving the Merchant freighter and en route to the planet can be attacked freely. This allows relatively cheap cargo and passenger shipping to occur, while the fixed schedule means that if an NPC needs to send freight to a specific planet, they may need to hire the PC group to do so.
Hop this helps
After thinking this over for awhile, realism isn't the best thing to base your game's FTL on. FTL in a sci-fi game is similar to magic in a fantasy game in that it needs to be designed last in order to fit the themes and scenarios that you want for your upcoming game. Not only can your FTL method be a central plot element, as it is in Dune or 40k, but even if it's not, it still determines what sort of adventures that can take place in the game.
Star Trek, for example, is an Age of Sail setting. FTL is relatively slow as the captain of the ship sails through space from island to island. Because of the slow nature of the FTL travel, the captain is often "the only ship within range" and will need to take care of whatever situation is going on in the area he is traveling through, whether that's a military, scientific, or diplomatic adventure, the captain as his crew will need to take care of it, usually without outside resources.
The same isn't true for something with near instantaneous FTL like Star Wars. If there is a diplomatic problem in a game with SW-based hyperspace, there's no reason for the party to deal with it as 15 minutes later a ship full of diplomats will arrive. Instead, Star Wars is more of a globetrotting pulp adventure, with the party traveling from planet to planet in rapid succession. Just imagine watching Indiana Jones and every time they show the map with the red line moving across it, assume that they are in hyperspace.
That being said, decide what types of adventures you'll want and design the FTL travel method to accommodate those. For example, when setting up my space western, I decided that FTL travel would be through gates. And, due to the exponential energy for the size of the gate, they standardized gates as relatively small diameter of 30 yard. Therefore, space ships are long and skinny, and travel through the gates one after another .... space trains.